I saw this story and my heart sank. Why on earth would anyone open fire on those who put their lives on the line every day, pulling people from burning buildings, coming to work each day trying to save lives? In this case, a house in Webster, New York was ablaze and, according to CNN, were shot at as they tried to put out the flames. Two firefighters were killed, others injured.
Two firefighters from the scene are now being treated at a hospital in Rochester, according to Strong Memorial Hospital public relations director Terry D’Agostino.
Boutillier said one of the firefighters was in satisfactory condition.
He also said the fire has spread to a second house in the neighborhood. Firefighters are currently not fighting the active fire, according to Boutillier, because of the gunfire.
…The shooter who killed two firefighters in upstate New York on Monday is dead, Webster Police Chief Gerald Pickering told reporters.
So I suppose the NRA wants the fire fighters to pack heat now as well?
When will we have the broader discussion about why so many Americans are so damned violent and have hair-trigger tempers lit over irrelevant bullsh*t. The fact that lethal weapons are the first resort in minor disputes or even just uncertain situations (like this one — in what context should you shoot at a firefighter?!) is extremely troubling.
The question is, how do you name it? People go straight to “mental illness” as a catch all for “they are unbalanced people” when the fact is that one can’t explain away all of this behavior as undiagnosed illness. But should it — is there a societal pathology at work that is going unaddressed because doing so means we have to hold all of us responsible? To solve this, family members, neighbors, colleagues and friends need to own our tempers, our abilities to cope with stressors of live that continue to mount on so many of us ? We need to get over any qualms we have about putting all of this out on the table.
UPDATE: The latest, from CNN:
Investigators believe the suspect, William Spengler, 62, set the original fire, then likely set himself up on a berm with a clear view of the scene and started shooting.
“It appears that it was a trap,” Webster Police Chief Gerald Pickering said. “There was a car and a house that were involved in flames, probably set by Mr. Spengler, who laid in wait in armament and then shot the first responders.”
Authorities do not know how Spengler — who was found dead of a self-inflicted gunshot wound hours after the four firefighters were shot — obtained the weapon or weapons he used or why he opened fire, Pickering told reporters. As a convicted felon, Spengler was not allowed to legally possess weapons, but he had “several different types of weapons” Monday, the police chief said.





31 Comments


From the press conference, the 4 were shot immediately on arriving at the fires. A fifth (off-duty cop who followed the fire truck to the fire) had his vehicle shot at least twice before he backed far enough away to warn other firefighters away from the scene.
Four homes lost, four more damaged.
And, this is the sort of story that gets worse… had the shooter already been taking lives before the fire? setting the fires himself? how many more victims will be found?
Yes. Americans are at the mercy of the market, unprotected. We blame individuals for their economic failures instead of the system that is designed to create huge income inequality. Long hours, low pay, no time to invest in relationships, family, or community creates loneliness and anger.
Not only is there as societal pathology, but the pathology has deep roots in the philosophies that underpin American economic life.
Every shooting and every death is a victory for the NRA and a way to sell more guns. They have absolutely no interest in decreasing violence.
You’re not allowed to talk about societal pathologies in America. Only random individuals are deeply sick, not the society. Perish the thought.
well put.
“…is there a societal pathology at work …”
Short answer: yes.
Frankly, I’ve never been worked up by Bin Laden and his supposedly fiendish friends, but the NRA’s vision for America is seriously disturbing….. gun terror all the time!!??
LaPierre (Frenchish??) and his ilk should be put on the ‘No Fly’ list pronto.
Judging by this article, the shooter had been convicted for killing his grandmother and used an assault rifle.
By the way, like in Sandy Hook, the victims here were obviously chosen for effect. As was, no doubt the day.
LaPierre has always been against background checks and FOR people to buy any and all weapons they wish. This is one result. There will probably be more.
His next move should be to resign from the NRA. Damn him.
So some moochers from the 47% got killed or lost their homes in a fire?? The fire fighters & cops are probably lousy lazy unionized moochers, and those home owners had their lazy mooching hands out looking for free help when they shoulda pulled themselves up by their bootstraps to put out the fire on their own. Then none of this killing woulda happened. It’s bc of the nanny state coddling moochers to expect free hand outs.
Another massacre right before Xmas!!?? Cha Ching$$$$$! Bonanza for after the Xmas $ale$!
Is America sick & perverted? Yes.
Can we deport him, the entire board of directors of the NRA, the CEO’s of the gun manufacturers and a few politicians first? Someplace where their gun fetish might help them survive for a few days. Say Somalia, the Pakistan frontier areas or Yemen.
The NRA is just a malignant tumor that symbolizes the sick ,demented and violent nature of this society and how it has metastasized throughout our body politic .We have the shabbiest safety net within the industrialized world and the corporate kleptocrats want to destroy what remains .We imprison more than the entire industrialized world in toto , and stand with N.Korea ,Iran and the Saudis as remnants of death penalty advocacy. We still defend undeniable Jim Crow morality prohibitions.We advocate torture ,slaughtering millions in wars of choice ,and then wonder how some deranged killers could emanate from this delusion of normalcy .
Merry Christmas Bradley Manning .
Just wanted to pop in here and tell you what a GREAT comment this is.
No problem, we just need to put an armed guard on every fire truck.
In the vein of yellow #2 and me @12 ,Michael Moore has a very nice blog on HuffPo .
Not enough…. we don’t want another Ruby Ridge or Waco. These things must be nipped in the bud.
Of course the mooching, unionized pension-leeching firefighters will need to be replaced by privatized units that can be trained to dual-task… probably ex-
BlackwaterI meanXeerrr Academi veterans with actual experience shooting people in urban environments.This will keep the costs under control and get the government out of the picture.
And the fire trucks will need onboard weapons as well as mine-resistant armor upgrades. Nothing excessive, mind you, perhaps a Mk 19 40mm automatic grenade launcher for crowd control and suppressing formations of militants and a M242 Bushmaster 25mm autocannon for getting at dug-in militants.
The SS trust fund will easily cover all this of course.
One thing that I noticed by being outside of the US now is that American culture can be summed up in three words: violent, ideological, and sanctimonious. It’s just getting worse and worse, and people (like the NRA) are doing everything that can to make money off of it and to avoid doing anything to make it better.
It’s important to make a distinction between mental health disorders that are biologically-based (schizophrenia, bipolar, autism) and disorders that are character-based (narcissism, sociopathy, pscyhopathy). People who have only biologically-based disorders have no choice in their disorder, and are no more violent than the average population.
A character disorder is when people intentionally use various malignant coping and defense mechanisms in order to not deal with reality. When we see people use denial, projection, distortion, black-and-white thinking, impulsive and delusional beliefs exemplified on a daily basis, we are looking at sociopaths. And they are not just the people who shoot up schools, but who become national TV show hosts, politicians, religious figures, and business moguls.
Mature behaviors that exemplify the mature or highly-evolved character are completely the opposite of pathological behaviors: altruism, empathy, planning ahead, delayed gratification, insight. American people in general are openly refusing to develop mature behaviors and as a result are devolving into the self-indulgent world of sociopathy, where pathological tactics are their weapons of choice.
The danger comes not from some generically “mentally ill” person, but from those who have a character-based disorder, people who were raised in a certain way, who choose to act with the most devolved behaviors that they can get away with.
According to Altemeyer’s research on authoritarianism, one in four Americans are operating at a pathological level of functioning:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanisms
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
Although Almeyer intentionally avoids making any comparison of the results of his work with existing mental health disorder definitions, facts are facts and behaviors and behaviors. From Altemeyer’s data, it’s clear that the US is in a character death spiral.
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No big deal… we’re just becoming like those corporations-are-people type of people…
2 more police officers also killed on Christmas Eve:
Police Officer Jennifer Sebena, 30, was found dead on Monday in the Milwaukee, Wisconsin, suburb of Wauwatosa, police said.
Sebena was on patrol between 3 a.m. and 5 a.m. and wearing body armor when she was shot several times, police said. She was found by another officer after she did not respond to calls from the police dispatcher.
In Houston, Texas, an officer with the Bellaire Police Department died after a shootout at around 9 a.m. and a bystander was also killed, according to local media reports.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57560719/4-firefighters-shot-2-dead-in-upstate-n.y/
from another news report:
“The saddest thing is that the officer, who is deceased, didn’t have the opportunity to pull his weapon and defend himself,” Cannon said. “It happened that fast.”
http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Texas-cop-bystander-killed-after-chase-4144531.php#ixzz2G2lPnMDG
I fail to see how ordinary citizens can protect themselves with guns when the police cannot manage it.
But when the government through its military kills, kills, kills, we “thank them for their service!” But there’s a difference you see – I just can’t figure out what that difference is.
I am waiting for the NRA to say there should be armed guards on every fire truck. The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is not to give him a gun. The second amendment is an historical document. What was in the mind of the framers? What was their intent? I would say it was that citizens could have a breach loading musket with an effective range of 30 yards that could fire a round every two minutes if the operator was very skilled. In the spirit of “Justice” Scalia, if the founding fathers presented the States with a proposal that every citizen should have the right to fire armor piercing bullets at 30 rounds a minute that could kill from half a mile away, they would not have approved the Second Amendment, so it obviously does not mean that.
Whomever the dumbass is that wrote the article, uh, the guy that shot them was a convicted felon!! Hellooooo!!!! He was a whack job too. The NRA doesn’t sell guns, they don’t manufacture them either. THE NRA IS IN PLACE TO FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT TO OWN AND BEAR ARMS, LEGALLY, UNDER THE 2ND AMENDMENT!!!!
Who the hell do you think is “giving” bad guys guns?? They are stealing them or buying them illegally you dumb shit!!
You fucking morons, the NRA doesn’t sell or manufacture guns of any type. What a dumb shit you are.
So why does the NRA continue to support the ‘loophole’ that allows those bad guys to buy the guns illegally?
Actually, it does concentrate on increasing sales of firearms. Have you listened to LaPierre since the Newtown massacre?
The NRA has long since stopped representing the overwhelming majority of its membership in these matters, as verified by a variety of polls, and instead represents the wishes of the firearms manufactures which lavishly fund it in return.
And what do the firearms manufactures want? More sales.
They take in a lot of money from people who do. Likewise.
“When will we have the broader discussion”
Maybe once everyone finishes venting on the NRA? Priorities, you know.
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69% of NRA members and 85% of non-NRA gun owners support background checks for all gun sales at gun shows. Was that the “loophole” you meant?