My heart goes out to the grieveing family of Trayvon.

Good evening, Pam, thank you for this update.

I’m simply going to link to Huff Po, where Corey’s statement is included, below the charge document which you post above:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/11/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-charged-second-degree-murder_n_1417198.html

And to the latest considerations which bmaz has posted at EW’s place:

http://www.emptywheel.net/2012/04/11/what-zimmermans-charge-means/.

DW

As a party to a particularly despicable law (heh) procedure, and IANAL, I’d evaluate the state’s filings in this case as about the mildest that could be filed.

Would be innerressed in opinions to the contrary.

i see premeditation,as soon as he started to stalk the poor lad

Justice is not something you get from the Courts of our land. The 2nd best thing that can happen is the fair application of the laws of this country to all who appear before it. Rich and poor, black, red and white need George to be be convicted. Not because he is completely and unredeemably horrible but because he murdered Trayvon Martin without thinking. His impulse was to shoot an unarmed and weaker man-child because the law and all of us sat on our hands and allowed this bullpucky to grab a hold of our country in the first place. We should all be asking ourselves if we’re aiding and abetting the nurturing of the George Z’s coming down the pipeline. As sure as night follows day, there are more George’s headed our way. And I’m glad that George is being stopped before he did this again. He is a glaring warning light; flashing bright red. And I’m glad for Trayvon’s family. They deserve to see some equity under the law for their lost son. It’s the least the Court of our land can do.

“I know that many of you are greatly — and rightly — concerned” about Martin’s death,…”

I’m also very concerned about how the investigation into the police officers’ behavior is going. Let’s not overlook another salient fact in this case: Zimmerman wasn’t arrested at first and the Sanford P.D.’s “investigation” seems to have consisted of taking the young man into the station to hammer out a cover story together and hopelessly corrupt any crime scene evidence. Justice for Martin demands Zimmerman be tried for the crimes he’s finally been accused of but justice for the United States screams for vigorous investigation and possible prosecution for the wrongdoing, (if any), that the police may be found guilty of.

Unsurprisingly, Zimmerman’s attorney has announced that he will be pleading not guilty.

long time coming. did zimmerman find another lawyer or is the NRA going to represent him?

Blah blah blah.

There is N0 reason why anyone would think that murdering Martin would be justifiable.

did zimmerman find another lawyer or is the NRA going to represent him?

Good ‘un.

This is a good development — there’s no way they could have charged Murder 1.

nope,not now….800,000 concealed weapons permits in FluraDuh!

No, obviously murder in the first degree couldn’t have held up at the pre trial hearing, since Zimmerman would have to be found to have deliberately set out to hunt down Trayvon Martin and shoot him and though he may indeed have set out to hunt down and shoot a black person, I don’t think that goes beyond rank speculation. The circumstances seem to perfectly suit the murder 2 description though.

Under Florida law, second degree murder is defined as “[t]he unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual.”

is it Calif. that says premeditation can be one minute beforehand?

While the charge is 2nd degree murder it will be ” the lesser included charges ” the state atty will hang her hat on. He’ll do 7-12 if there’s justice in Florida. I’m not sure there is. I guess I don’t have your soothsaying ability. Sorry.

The answer is of course…..MORE GUNS! /bs

The straws are coming faster now. Soon the camel’s back will break and the country will swing left so fast you won’t believe it. Then begins another period of long, slow drift to the right. That’s what this country does…

Dunno. That sounds like a law Texas would have actually. Anything to execute more (brown) people.

amazing number,no? deadly carnival atmosphere

Premeditation means with planning or deliberation. The amount of time needed for premeditation of a killing depends on the person and the circumstances. It must be long enough, after forming the intent to kill, for the killer to have been fully conscious of the intent and to have considered the killing.

found this
when did he decide to kill the kid?

Perhaps with no more planning that when he saw him….who knows at this point?

Just in case anyone wants to know . . .

Under Florida law, the prosecution has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not shoot Trayvon Martin in self-defense, as opposed to him having the burden of proving by a preponderance of the evidence that he did.

This also is the the law in Washington State, which I am used to, and I took it into consideration in forming my opinion about this case. That is, that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense and he should be charged with second degree murder.

Therefore, I agree with Angela Corey’s decision and I do not believe that she is going to have any unusual difficulty proving her case, in part, because I do not believe Zimmerman’s story will survive close scrutiny.

yes, although corey said it was a difficult decision, it may be very easy to prove. the timelines, as established by the 911 calls and the cell phone records, may make zimmerman’s story (or stories — i think there might be several conflicting ones) completely preposterous. not to mention the autopsy report, etc.

I didn’t mean to give you the wrong impression. I’m way outta my ken here. I only know enough about the law to look like a moron, (as opposed to an imbecile). And that statement in blue @12 isn’t mine. You can follow the imbedded link back to Think Progress.

If you ever look like a moron or an imbecile, I’ll look like a spore.

The problem with proving premeditation is that Zimmerman called the police and requested an officer be dispatched to the scene.

The shooting happened approximately 10 minutes after that call ended.

Officer Timothy Smith, who was dispatched to the scene to investigate the “suspicious” person whom we now know to have been Trayvon Martin, was the first officer to arrive and he just missed witnessing it.

While it’s certainly possible that Zimmerman premeditated the murder, it would be difficult to prove because it’s unlikely that he would have called the police and requested an officer be dispatched, if he was planning on killing Trayvon.

If he had premeditated, he would have killed him and then called police.

At least, that is what I would argue, if I were representing him.

I’m not terribly upset about a second-degree rather than a first-degree charge anyway, and mainly because I’m not interested in the death penalty. If Zimmerman is found guilty, life without parole will more than suit me.

LMAO! That’s clever, funny, simultaneously self deprecating but complimentary, (to me), and of course ridiculously untrue. No way anyone could make you look like a spore.

I think it’s overdue but a start.

As a parent, my heart goes out to Trayvon’s parents who still face untold trials and tribulations.

Repealing all the stupid Kill at Will laws would be a start.

you are hardly a moron,i just wonder how much time it took that cretin to decide he would shoot that boy

Indeed, Margaret. The conduct of the police and other executors of the law is far more important here than Zimmerman’s murder of a child.

hahahahahahah,im a neutrino

I never said that the conduct of the police is “far more important” than Martin’s murder, nor would I ever. I just said that now that Zimmerman has been arrested and charged, it’s time to consider police behavior. To Trayvon’s parents, there is nothing more important than the fact their son was murdered by somebody who obviously should have never had access to a firearm but I’ll bet concern over the police actions is running a close second.

how long does it take to decide,im going to draw my weapon,and shoot a human being?

I dunno EDP. I doubt he’ll get life. Remember that daddy is connected. Connected people don’t do life.

plead?

You are correct.

Premeditation means that the decision to kill (i.e., intent) is formed before the act that causes death is committed. There is no minimum time period that must pass for intent to kill to ripen into premeditated intent to kill.

The key issue is an opportunity to reflect on the decision to kill followed by a decision to go ahead and kill. This is usually proven by circumstantial evidence in the form of a pause, however brief, in the chain of events that results in a death.

The best example I can think of is attempting to stab someone to death, but they don’t die, so you finish them off with a gun.

In Trayvon’s case, it looks like the decision to kill pretty much merged with the act of shooting him. At least, that would be much easier to prove than premeditation and it is they type of act that “evinces a depraved mind regardless of human life.”

how long does it take to decide,im going to draw my weapon,and shoot a human being?

All I can say is that people are taught to have already made the decision to kill before drawing the weapon. That’s what I was taught anyway. Well, it was sorta drilled into me but you get the idea. Zimmerman has pretty obviously not had training by a competent instructor.

The maximum sentence is life with the possibility of parole, not life without the possibility of parole.

There is a special firearm allegation that probably involves some sort of minimum mandatory.

that answers my question…he had intent to kill imo

Who knows? But I know there are a hugely disproportionate number of poor and minority people doing time and that’s certainly not because rich people don’t commit crimes.

My apologies if my comment was poorly put. I was agreeing with what you had written @6 and suggesting that “justice for the United States” was the more important issue as it has a wider social impact than just a single murder. Of course justice is relative, and it is possible that Martin’s parents may feel otherwise.

has always been thus….sadly

The three days , laying therein the morgue as john Doe, when they knew who he was on the first day does raise an eyebrow or two for sure.

You don’t hafta convince me.

Spot on.

No need for apologies. I just wanted to be clear myself.

He may not get life, but, who knows how long his life will be. Inside people may not cozy up to him.

And haven’t Florida’s prisons been privatized? Oooh I’ll bet daddy lives to regret supporting that….

A fight broke out, a man pulled a gun and killed his opponent. A trial is necessary, vilifying said man who appears to not be of sound mind is inhumane.

These two lives have become a battleground for the “culture war”, the pity and sorrow expressed is a thin mask for battle-rage.

That’s gotta hurt. You never know when a poor decision comes back at ya.

I thought there was a lot of ongoing “discussion” about that…as in, the courts keep telling Scottdemort “no,” and he keeps not listening.

There’s somebody else who needs to be arrested.

uhm facts dont support your conclusions,sorry next answer

A teen was walking back from the convenience store and an arguably paranoid, armed, self appointed “neighborhood watch captain” followed him against direct orders from the police, then approached the teen, again against direct orders from the police, and then “a fight broke out, a man pulled a gun and killed his opponent”.

Fixed it for you because that really needed fixing! We wouldn’t be having this conversation if it was just a matter of “a fight breaking out”. Hate to break it to you but these are all relevant facts and they will come up at trial.

I think that goes without saying.

WASHINGTON – At a time when states are struggling to reduce bloated prison populations and tight budgets, a private prison management company is offering to buy prisons in exchange for various considerations, including a controversial guarantee that the governments maintain a 90% occupancy rate for at least 20 years.

The $250 million proposal, circulated by the Nashville-based Corrections Corporation of America to prison officials in 48 states, has been blasted by some state officials who suggest such a program could pressure criminal justice officials to seek harsher sentences to maintain the contractually required occupancy rates.

WASHINGTON – At a time when states are struggling to reduce bloated prison populations and tight budgets, a private prison management company is offering to buy prisons in exchange for various considerations, including a controversial guarantee that the governments maintain a 90% occupancy rate for at least 20 years.

WTF? Crime rate notwithstanding???

Outrageous.

Thanks for a thoughtful comment that attempts to get at more than the reductive dichotomy within which this tragedy is often framed. The with-us-or-against-us binary perspective that allows so many of us to fight amongst ourselves in these generated, top-down “culture wars” is not exclusive to ideologues on the Right.

I have appreciated your comments on other posts for their similar thoughtfulness, inquisitiveness and sensitivity.

I am going to second, that, otto.

Your comments, afterthought, are consistently much appreciated.

DW

The US has more people in prison, both in total numbers and as a percentage of the population, than any other nation on the planet. I suspect that has very little to do with crime rates.

Remember when that yardstick was how we used to measure the oppressiveness of Red China and the Soviet Union?

im sorry,the facts of the case dont reflect this simplistic fight scenario

With the Republicans on the U.S. Supreme Court ruling last week that anyone arrested and taken into custody by police anywhere in America, for whatever reason, can be strip-searched and thoroughly probed, did George Zimmerman have this done to him after turning himself into the authorities and was taken to jail?

i thought the article was from the Onion….sadly its from USA TODAY

My favorite commenters here are the folks who ask us to look at things from a different perspective and question our assumptions–we tend not to think or learn much otherwise . Afterthought delivers on both counts. As do you. Thanks.

except for the small problem ,that the facts of the case dont relect that scenario

Perhaps part of what afterthought was getting at is that the facts and the public reaction are not the same thing. Maybe even for some the first does not inform the second. The two sides of the public reaction–are there are only two dominant sides here–seem to be very concerned with the cultural narrative of this tragedy. And such narratives often have little to do with facts.

It appears that this was a vigilante murder by Zimmerman, who–if his 911 calls are any indication–is possibly a delusional paranoid engaging in some transference. However, he is a tragic figure and appears to be a victim in his own right, quite possibly of the scared shitless violence of US culture and its fetish with control and punishment.

I usually fail in this endeavor, but I try not to put too much weight behind facts that I can’t put my hands on. Plus, and this is a big part of Afterthought’s contribution, empathy, thought and questions are more valuable than facts.

imo,facts,timeline,a search for the truth is all thats left for these bereaved parents,justice may be elusive,but as another has said…the poor lad was a John Doe for 3 days…that is completely unacceptable

empathy was the first casualty…Sociopaths in their think tanks run this world,if you have noticed…there are more guns than people in this country
funny that

imo…George Z,may be tragic,but has skipped justice on other occasions,and needs to be behind bars to protect the public,from his meditations,and premeditations….good night all

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.

And yet, sadly, the fight scenario IS precisely why second-degree murder, and not first degree, is the charge lodged against Zimmerman. The words, “evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life” is the common law definition of murder. What occurred does not rise, in terms of the likely evidence, and certainly not in terms what we know for certain, which is very, very little, to the level of poisoning, or “lying in wait” … the definition of “premeditation”.

ANY and every death, which has even the vaguest of suspicion attached to it, should be investigated and not dismissed at the whim of the police.

However, my main reason for seconding otto, is what aferthought says in the last portion of the last sentence. THAT is the telling “point”, of the last several weeks, so far as I am concerned.

Personal conviction about what occurred IS NOT proof sufficient to sentence anyone to prison or worse, that requires due process of law AND meeting the burden of proof required. A fact sadly forgotten or blatantly and intentionally ignored by the President of this nation, for example … a man who claims the mantle of “Constitutional Scholar”.

Let us see how this case now plays out … until then, speculation and anger, empty accusation and charged outrage, have no genuine nor proper place … IF, however, justice is NOT served, then it will be the proper time to ask further questions and raise further, legitimate doubts. We simply, now, must wait and see what happens.

DW

of course we must seek justice,but walking home from 7/11 in this country has turned into a deadly behavior…this is just crazy,and a very young life has been lost for no reason what so ever…he begged and cried for his life,this was an execution…im sleepy good night hon

Good night, sadly, sleep well.

DW

It’s unacceptable to me too. But, I have no idea what Martin’s parents might want. All I can say is that as a parent myself, if my kid was Trayvon, nailing Zimmerman to the wall ain’t bringing my kid back to life. And it probably won’t make me feel better in the long run. However, trying to fix the cultural, political and institutional issues that affected the tragedy might benefit other folks’ kids, and getting there–getting past the selfish appeal of restitutive punishment within the imagined context of our binary “culture wars”–requires what Afterthought was suggesting.

“Sociopaths in their think tanks run this world . . .”

They do? Well, only if we let them. I’m no fan of the Big Man theory of how the world works. Let the sociopaths pretend to rule the world. I’m not going act like empathy is a casualty just because those fucks shot it in the face. Kick against the pricks.

Beautifully and cogently well said, otto. You are among my favorite commenters, for the precise same reason which you mention several comments above …

Namaste

That comment deserves a diary of its own, otto.

Inspiration is sorely needed, these days, and you kick ass with the very best of ‘em, while laying out the human truth of “things” with deft and superb aplomb!

;~DW

Better to just shut up if you have nothing worth saying.

One of the things that fascinates me as I’ve seen it evolve over my lifetime to dominate the political environment is how so many progressives, liberals and others on the left exhibit the same acquiescence to authority and appeal to punishment of The Other as those on the right, their supposed political opposites. Like watching members of two nearly identical religious sects arguing over the proper name of their shared god. What is this growing fetish across the political spectrum for Leaders? Well, I guess much of the Left and the Right are after the same levers of control. Perhaps it’s my imagination that what passes for the left and the right in the US have grown increasingly indistinguishable, but do we really have no more currency in our purse than this double-headed wooden nickel?

And thanks for the kind words.

What are you talking about? If you want to have a more reasonable criminal system, many would agree. But that can’t mean that a case like this is completely ignored at first. Maybe the fact that Zimmerman had his own issues should be considered, but that can’t mean that he walks off without trial.

It will be an O J Simpson in reverse. Even the most drunken, most incompetent defense lawyer will be able to get him off.

Who said anything about Zimmerman walking off without a trial?

Then please explain what you are referring to?

Well, @80 I was talking about what I see to be a growing indistinguishability between the Left and the Right in US politics, especially in regard to deference to authority, a search for “leadership,” and the appeal of punishment and control of The Other within the context of the manufactured nonsense that is the culture war.” In general, I and several others were talking about the narrative, what are excepted as facts, how those facts might influence a narrative, and trying to get beyond the binary framework that dominates this issue. I don’t know that any of us were suggesting Zimmerman escape trial. Indeed, part of what was being implied was that a trial should include not just this individual, but also the culture, identities and institutions of which he, and we, are all a part.

Afterthought put things most succinctly @48.

i have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. are you suggesting some sort of “post-partisan” criminal justice system? instead of the democrats and obama giving away the store, i mean compromising with the rethugs, should the prosecution and defense split the difference here? what exactly are you faulting “the Left” for in this case? the killing of a young black male was not treated as a crime and justice was sought. i have no idea what you are talking about.

Otto, you and DW and afterthought are representing the best of us in your commentary on this thread, as in many other places at other times, and the thoughtfulness displayed is the most important part of why I keep coming to this website. Thank you, all of you.

What we are talking about–what Afterhtought started @48–is less about Zimmerman, the trial, the “facts,” etc. and more about how most of the US is reacting to the incident. The dominant reactions on both the Left and Right to this issue are largely identical and revolve around identity politics: “Of course X is the victim! How can it be any other way. In fact, if you question my interpretation, your loyalties must be with The Other Side.” The public aftermath of this murder is more about identity and narrative than evidence or police work. What we are talking about is not the story, but the metanarrative.

I’m faulting many on the Left for behaving just like the Right, the only difference being they occupy the flip side of the same coin. If we can step outside of this ridiculous “culture war” framework and see past a binary construction, we might be able to better figure things out and improve our collective situation, maybe even going so far as to have empathy for someone like Zimmerman. And empathy is one of the advantageous outcomes of being open to learning. “When the individual perceives and accepts into one consistent and integrated system all his sensory and visceral experiences, then he is necessarily more understanding of others and is more accepting of others as separate individuals.” –from Carl Rogers, who knew a lot about how people learn.

Or, we can all just keep on railing against our neighbors for their imagined differences and incorrigibility. I suspect that would make the 1% (“to use the parlance of our times”) just as happy as pigs in shit.

Likewise for you, RC. Thanks.

ok otto, thanks for that. i see your point and i have taken that to heart. however, it is a false equivalency that the left and right are just two sides of the same coin. the left does not spew hate and misinformation the way the right does. our goal is not to obfuscate as they do. we have to be careful not to dehumanize “the other side” but i also appreciate some of the snark i read here as a way to keep our spirits up in the face of so much injustice and dishonesty which can drive us crazy. but yes, some humility that we don’t know everything and examining our reflexive positions to look at something from different perspectives are a good thing.

Who said anything about Zimmerman walking off without a trial?

That is exactly what he was going to do before public pressure began to mount, so perhaps it doesn’t need to be explicitly said.