Is it 2012? Yes, it is, but in Sanford, Florida (near Orlando), the clock winds back to the days of Deep South Justice. Unarmed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was hunted down and gunned down for the heinous crime of “carrying Skittles while black.” Charles Blow, in the NYT:
Trayvon had left the house he and his father were visiting to walk to the local 7-Eleven. On his way back, he caught the attention of George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old neighborhood watch captain, who was in a sport-utility vehicle. Zimmerman called the police because the boy looked “real suspicious,” according to a 911 call released late Friday. The operator told Zimmerman that officers were being dispatched and not to pursue the boy.
Zimmerman apparently pursued him anyway, at some point getting out of his car and confronting the boy. Trayvon had a bag of Skittles and a can of iced tea. Zimmerman had a 9 millimeter handgun.
The two allegedly engaged in a physical altercation. There was yelling, and then a gunshot.
When police arrived, Trayvon was face down in the grass with a fatal bullet wound to the chest. Zimmerman was standing with blood on his face and the back of his head and grass stains on his back, according to The Orlando Sentinel.
Trayvon’s lifeless body was taken away, tagged and held. Zimmerman was taken into custody, questioned and released. Zimmerman said he was the one yelling for help. He said that he acted in self-defense. The police say that they have found no evidence to dispute Zimmerman’s claim.
One other point: Trayvon is black. Zimmerman is not.
George Zimmerman who was told not to pursue Martin, did so anyway and executed the teen. Was he even arrested? No – he wasn’t — and has not been charged with any crime, claiming self-defense. And there were people who heard the screams of the boy. The Orlando Sentinel has the 911 call, which the police had refused to release until this story blew up. It was clear from the call Zimmerman was on, that he was out for bloodlust. Chicago Sun-Times:
In one of the eight calls, screaming can be heard in the background as a woman tries to get help. That call is punctuated by two gunshots.
“You hear a shot, a clear shot, then you hear a 17-year-old boy begging for his life,” said Natalie Jackson, another family attorney. “Then you hear a second shot.”
It was the first time that anyone said two shots were fired that night.
In the call placed by Zimmerman to alert authorities that there was a suspicious person in the neighborhood, he says the person “looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something.”
Moments later, Zimmerman says, “These assholes, they always get away.”
In one of the 911 calls, placed moments later, a man reports that “they’re wrestling right in the back of my porch. There’s a black guy down. It looks like he’s been shot and he’s dead.”
Exactly what crime had Martin committed from the POV of Zimmerman? “Looking suspicious.” We all know what that means in racially tense America. A black man simply walking down the street to many people gets their dander and fear up without provocation. Perhaps Zimmerman fell prey to the “he doesn’t belong here” — and that’s enough to raise suspicion. But in his alleged act of violence, Zimmerman shows his hand — “These assholes, they always get away” — his pursuit of Martin was following the Charles Bronson in “Death Wise” vigilante mode — “I’ve had enough of this sh*t (crime).” He wasn’t just defending himself — he was avenging “the community” — and the police in Sanford, Florida agreed with him. And the defense that race had nothing to do with the initial execution and follow up by law enforcement is already being floated by Police Chief Bill Lee Jr., who told the Sentinel he is not a racist and that his officers “conducted a thorough and fair investigation and did nothing underhanded or untruthful.”
Well, not releasing the 911 tapes until the heat is on doesn’t suggest that “forthcoming” could be applied to the situation. U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder will be meeting with local officials early next week to try to unravel this tragedy. Darryl E. Owens in the ChiTrib, on why this outrage shows how so little has changed when it comes to street justice and race – and why those who are in shock and horror over Martin’s death may feel the die has been cast:
On Sept. 23, 1955, Roy Bryant and J. W. Milam fired up stogies and smooched their wives. About an hour earlier, a Mississippi jury had mulled their fates.
The men had stood trial for abducting a 14-year-old black boy. They pounded his face into ground chuck. Shot him in the head. And tossed his broken body — weighted with a large fan used for cleaning raw cotton that they’d hitched with barbed wire around his neck — in the Tallahatchie River.
Emmett Till was dead. And despite damning evidence, Bryant and Milam were acquitted — after the all-white jury deliberated a mere 67 minutes. Nearly 67 years later, and some 800 miles from the delta town where Emmett Till met his doom, another young black kid’s death has revived the suspicion that a black life doesn’t have all that much value.
Sure, few of the nearly 400 righteously indignant people who flocked Allen Chapel AME Church this week, demanding that police lock up George Zimmerman, probably know the details about Emmett Till’s death.
But the black folk among them know all too well the deep, abiding sense that, in a country where segregation, Jim Crow and prejudice have created unequal footing, African-Americans also too often endure separate and but unequal justice.
In 2012 we will see whether much has changed at all. Carrying Skittles and a can of tea should not equal a death sentence.




172 Comments


It is clear that we have returned to the era when being black on a nice day (especially in a nice neighborhood), constituted a clear and present danger to the good (white) citizens, who were obligated to take all necessary measures to protect themselves. I would like to think that this is just the dying gasp of a vanishing belief system, but I teach this stuff and I am not so optimistic about it ever disappearing.
And how many Klan er I mean tea party rallies has Zimmerman attended?
Will the FBI investigate?
This kind of story breaks my heart.
A couple tidbits I’ve noticed from the local news regarding this. Despite his name, Zimmerman appears Hispanic-not defending him, just think it’s interesting. And this occurred in a gated community. So Zimmerman conveniently forgot that Trayvon would have needed a passcode to get in.
I’m afraid this moment has arrived right on schedule.
.
When I put myself in the mindset of someone like Zimmerman (ever see the movie Manhunter?), or try to think like one of the many one-bad-apples at a tea party rally, I always come to the same conclusion:
Murder is the ultimate goal. How can it NOT be? Nothing else satisfies, no other act defines a caveman more than ending a human life.
Will the jury be seated with only white people against a white death penalty ?
This country is suffering a type of cancer that is consuming any humanity we have left .
Heinous. If the DoJ doesn’t investigate and prosecute, a third crime will have been committed, (one by Zimmerman, one by the Sanford police and one by the DoJ). This was premeditated murder and the police reaction was accessory to murder and obstruction of justice.
Having a passcode while black is an even greater “crime”…
Indeed: Maybe Holder will be looking for a way back in. How scared can one be of a visitor in his gated community. As a neighborhood watch program worker, why is he even carrying a gun?
I lived in South Africa during apartheid, compared to this story, it was a paradise for Blacks.
If people had been shot for similar actions during apartheid, there would have been piles of bodies on every street every day.
Why is there so much fear and rage in the US? It’s not just prejudice and bigotry, dislike of “the others” always exists. Why is there is a large component of fear and rage to provide the fuel for these actions?
Mr. Zimmerman, despite his name, is not a white man, he is of hispanic decent, so that white jury statement is just plain silly. You need to read all the story, there is more to this than “race”. Mr. Zimmerman was a menace to his entire community, not just hose of differing colors. There had recently been complaints about him to the homeowners association for bad behavior and antagonizing his neighbors. This is an issue of one really bad person, not a conspiracy of the “whie” community.
Indeed.
I also cry every time I see reporting of one of these events. The opportunities that African Americans have achieved in this country recede from attention and I feel we are no better than in the earlier days when white vigilantism was the operative law here in the south. I recall Emmett Till and Billie Holliday’s Strange Fruit.The mindset that spawned such seems to have not changed, if any thing it is more virulent in spite of opposing laws.
I seem to always catch just the lead in to this story, or the tail end of a report on the local news, but from my limited perspective Zimmerman’s story stinks from top to bottom.
Tragic but not surprising. When I first heard thi story a few days ago on TYT not only was I not shocked by the murder, I was more surprised that we were hearing about this at all. How many more times does this happen that we never hear about? Quite a few, I’ll wager.
“politicians” and “pundits” stoke the fires of hate.
Screw Florida & other states w/’stand your ground’ laws. I’ll never go there & never knowingly do business w/any company or person based there.
It’s hard to think coherently, much less write so, with such roiling emotions, and it’s just right that we can still be moved to such rage and disgust…and pain, given how frequent murders like this are. When police shoot or tase people to death, it’s horrific when they’re tried, and found not guilty. But it’s a whole ‘nother level of ugly when a neighbhood watch asshole does it, and no charges are filed. I assume Trayvon’s family will bring a civil suit at least, but there is no real justice with monetary awards.
Unless I missed it, you didn’t mention the young man’s father; I’d love to hear more about him, no matter how painful his testament might prove.
Godspeed, Trayvon; prayers of healing to your family. Recovering from this will be more difficult than anything I can imagine. More later, maybe, when I’m more composed.
Because people like Rush Limbaugh and the RNC and conservative movement have stoked that fear, lovingly tended it and encouraged it and like a tiny little campfire can grow to consume many square miles, it has blown up into a firestorm of naked racism and undisguised contempt and hatred for anybody seen as not representative of their values. These events are a direct result of an intentional campaign to make and keep people ignorant and afraid. Then they offer them a solution: Vote Republican. Give your money to us. What’s a few minority deaths, more or less? They’ve dehumanized the blacks, they’ve dehumanized the liberals, they’ve dehumanized the gays and now they are working to dehumanize women. Then there are courageous people like Pam who represents all four of the communities I’ve enumerated and still won’t be silent or go into hiding. Well done Pam.
In America, fear of a black man doing absolutely nothing is not restricted to whites.
The “conspiracy” lies in a justice system that refuses to investigate or charge the killer if the dead person happens to be a young black male.
Of course it makes me wonder that if they used fear of liberals in 2000, fear if gays in 2004, fear of Muslims in 2008, fear of Hispanic immigrants in 2010 and now fear of womens’ freedom to be self determinative in 2012….who is left for them to demonize? What group will it be in 2016? Or will they just circle back to liberals?
Pam, one thing that is being forgotten in this entire thing, or just plain ignored, is the Florida Law passed in 2006 that allows an individual to shoot another individual if they feel threatened. It used to only pertain to protection of one’s home, but that law was expanded to allow shooting another if you feel threatend for yourself, others, and think a felony might be in progress. That law, also stipulates that Police can NOT arrest or detain or do anything to the shooter if this claim is used. They can investigate the crime, and can arrest an individual later if the investigation shows the person was not in fear for themselves or others. There has been very little mention of this law, in fact, I’ve seen NO mention of this law. This law is the reason the police could not arrest Zimmerman, who IS HISPANIC, NOT WHITE as many believe based off of his name. He is bound by the law. Maybe you could look into that “Stand Your Ground” law and how it affects situations like this. There have been a number of cases like this since the law was passed. This law, and many like it in Florida, are the reason my husband and I moved in 2006.
ANd I really think you did a disservice to your readers to not point out the fact that this shooter was Hispanic. Many of these article perpetuate the idea that he is white and thus this is a white privlidge issue, or somehow another white person killed another black person. I know that still happens, but you have a journalistic responsibility to reveal this fact in your writing. You use the inflamatory line from Blow: One other point: Trayvon is black. Zimmerman is not. I know, it alters his point, and isn’t as sexy to say, Trayvon is black. Zimmerman is Hispanic. It truly ruins the narative. We need to concentrate on getting these Stand Your Ground laws repealed, they are what allows this to happen without consequences to the shooters.
Hispanic is not a race.
I know our world is totally fucked up and bullshit, but just damn, if this isn’t a GD cake taker. Unbelievable. Absolutely pointless stalking, harrassment, and murder – apparently perfectly legal.
Unthefuckbelievable.
The real issue in this case is the fact that Florida has a Stand your ground law, which enables people to shoot each other and claim fear for their lives. And that the same law states that the police CAN NOT arrest, detain or otherwise do anything aginst the individual who did the shooting. It is in the law that these police could not arrest him. This has happened a number of times since it was passed in 2006. This law, and those in other states passed since 2006, need to be repealed.
You have a problem with just Hispanics? What in the world does that have to do with a system (as I mentioned in #22) that passes and supports the kind of laws exemplified by the “Stand Your Ground” law. It’s the failure to protect a segment of the culture.
*:
What we have here is too much rechtitude.
My condolences to Trayvon’s family and friends. Were it reversed, Zimmerman would most likely be in jail. Scary white men with guns. Horrendous crime.
Spot on. Some of the Hispanics I’ve known were way more bigoted than many of the white racists I’ve known, (or been unfortunately related to). Those bigots are just brutal toward black men. We had a young man who worked for us and was trying to turn his life around after an armed robbery conviction. It soon became clear that his parole officer wanted him back behind bars and was searching for an excuse to put him there. He eventually managed a pretext to do it. “J” left his monitoring device at work, (he had taken it off his belt because some of the machinery interferes with it,) and had to call the president of the company to let him back inside to get it. His next call was to his parole officer and he explained what had happened and though he was back and had the monitor within 30 minutes, he was thrown back in jail for 18 months. This poor kid rode across town on 3 buses to get to and from work, ALWAYS showed up except on those occasions where he had to report to his parole officer for a “random check”, (usually about four or five times a month) and did his job, did it well and without complaint. He wasn’t even allowed to attend our company Christmas party because it wasn’t held “at his workplace” and the bigoted asshole still managed to throw J back in prison. I miss him and my job is much harder now without a reliable assistant. (The one I have now, though competent, spends more time missing work than being there) J is black. his parole officer is named Rodriguez.
ummm. I didn’t say it was.
Hispanics are usually a mixture of Caucasian, Northern African and Native American but for classification purposes, they are considered white. Hence the term used by demographers, “non Hispanic white”.
It’s an Amerikan disease.
The law promotes vigilantism. It comes directly from the founding principles of the KKK. In this country the African Americans have traditionally been the target of such but it really applies to any demonized minority.
you can keep trying to make me out as some bad person and try to claim I have issues with hispanics (because i pointed out that Zimmerman wasn’t white, as many assume, and that he was hispanic??) And if you read what I wrote, instead of immediately assuming I have race issues, is that this law needs to be changed, but that the law as written and signed into law, disallows police to arrest, or otherwise detain an individual that shoots someone and claims fear for self. I think that the issue in this story is more than one thing, but people are saying the police are corrupt for not arresting Zimmerman, when they are precluded BY LAW from doing so.
What an awful tragedy. I really hope that this fellow Zimmerman is prosecuted and put in jail for murder. This episode is like an episode out of the Reconstruction.
Yeah, tell the racists out there that “brown” people are the same as white. I’mn pretty sure Arizona and other states will go along with that.
This may be hard to take:
Here are the official police recordings:
You can hear the victim screaming as he begs repeatedly for his life for a long time:
Then you can hear the Murderous gunfire that finally shuts him up.
http://axiomamnesia.com/2012/03/16/trayvon-martin-911-calls-audio/
You sure are being defensive! That tells me more than anything that you may have race issues. I only pointed out that DEMOGRAPHERS use that classification. Please point to where Pam said Zimmerman was white and I’ll stfu and go away.
The question is:
How invested is President Obama in Covering Up the Police Violence Crisis gripping this country?
If Obama wants to keep it Covered Up, he will refrain from arresting the Murder for either Murder or Torture, even though the above recording and the witnesses make both Convictions possible.
This is another case wherein the President must send troops to quell the Racist Atrocity.
Besides, I live in Texas and the only “Zimmerman” I have ever personally known was half Hispanic. I didn’t make any assumptions about race, other than where Pam said he wasn’t black”.
I am aware of that, but you are a journalist, and should present all the facts in a story. If you look at some of the comments on this page, before Is tarted writing, a number of people are under the impression that THIS STROY, THIS CASE you are writing about, right here, right now, is about a white man shooting a black man. Comments about how he’d get off with a white jury, or scary white men with guns. Do you think that lack of factual information might make a difference in this story? Or is it ok to let your read sit there with the false impression that a white guy shot a black guy and is getting away with it. ALL the facts matter Pam. Even when they do not fit the narrative.
It’s by definition a “conspiracy” because he was knowingly allowed by others to continue in his uncivilized manner, in your own words.
Trayvon Martin, your picture is on my wall. You will forever be remembered by me.
Well, after reading your comment 31, I would think it was you that had issue with other races. read my #43, maybe you will inderstand swhy I brought up the fact that Zimmerman isn’t white. Readers here just assumed he was white based on his name and that has gone through many stories posted about this subject. A Journalist bears the reponsibility to present ALL the facts of a case. Mentioning the fact that one individual is black, without noting the color of the other individual is an error. And yes, as a white individual I feel it IS important that these facts be presented in the story, since the commentors cannot be trusted to click through and get all the facts, they have made assumptions about this particualr case and those assumptions should be cleared up.
Okay that explains it. Look at Rob’s commenting history. It’s very instructive.
disengaging.
Crime above must have crime below.
Very sad comment, but closer to the truth than most of us want to admit.
The point is that the victim is black! Do you think Zimmerman would be free today if he ignored a dispatchers directive not to pursue the matter further; went after a white teenager with skittles and an iced tea; and claimed self-defense after murdering him? How far can you chase someone while carrying a gun before you murder him in “self-defense.?”
Zimmerman wouldn’t have shot a white teenager in those circumstances and if he had he’d be in jail. You don’t chase people down in self defense, even in Florida.
Wise move, your disengagement.
They are not precluded from investigating.
Your are the one who brings up his Hispanic heritage as though that somehow eliminates any racial component.
You are missing the more important larger point. I couldn’t agree more that this law probably needs repeal but there has always been an exclusion for self-defense in all law.
The various libertine gun laws are representative of a system that protects and promotes vigilantism which as I commented traditionally has victimized African-Americans but certainly include all minorities that the majority in the culture don’t like.
A very useful tool that has been used here in the south to prosecute white supremacist terrorists and break up their groups is prosecuting violation of gun laws. (In fact it was the only way a white Christian supremacist that was terrorizing our church membership was getting him on a gun law violation charge.) With liberalization this becomes increasingly more difficult.
Thank you!
Will the jury be seated with only white people against a white death penalty ?
let me explain since I said the above.
The point was there is a duel justice system in this country and in PA you cannot sit on a death penalty jury unless you support the death penalty which is applied to black defendants without question. If this case goes to a jury will they be the same death penalty nut cases jurors that hear the black cases. That’s my point not the shooter’s race but more the victim’s, especially if the roles were reversed.
Rob, read the linked comment. You make some good points, but the young black man was shot in a gated community. He went free. Do you really think that would happen if he shot a white boy, no matter what law was on the books. Zimmerman may have been Hispanic, but the facts a the same. Pam did a good job. It is a distressing story that certainly appears to reaffirm our racism.
Good to see more awareness of this issue here at the Lake.
Please take the 30 seconds it takes to sign this petition: http://www.change.org/petitions/prosecute-the-killer-of-17-year-old-trayvon-martin
my “Thank you!” was for fmr @ 49
Bob, have you ever heard of the term “White male hispanic”? Cops and 911 dispatchers use it all the time. I have no clue what it means but it is a common law enforcement term.
So perhpas this confusion came from that terminology used by the responding officers of this incident.
That said, I find this fact makes the entire incident and how it has played out so far any less racist.
The stand your ground law…get the F#CK outta here with that nonsense; if a 17 year old white boy had been shot by a 28 year old black or white male hispanic man or WHATEVER; the shooter would have been detained and questioned. Period.
Yes, I didn’t even bother to read his history; his comments on this thread reek of purposeful ignorance. Rob may be a paid troll or maybe just the type of person who most people avoid in person, So Rob comes to the internet to express Rob’s intentionally ignorant opinions.
You are very welcome.
Um…are you sure you read the whole story yourself? There was a dead person, shot. There was a live person, with the gun that did it. The live one was brought in for “questioning”. Apparently, all he had to do was give some excuse for killing another person then released. No mention of any investigation, evidence gathered, whatever, to verify the excuse at least. I would hope that if this were in my town, there would be some heads to roll in that “police” department. There was a killing, for Christ sake.
I appreciate your highlighting the law, Rob. A friend and attorney just explained it, and the ramifications of it to me on the phone as we were discussing this diary. We can all hope more facts surface in the case, but the law is jaw-dropping in any case.
Familiar incidents in North Miami Beach,Florida. At a citizens Crime Watch meeting at the North Miami Beach Police Station A question was asked concerning the status of a shooting in North Miami Beach. There were several members of the NMBPD present. None acted aware of that shooting. Then after some pressure one member of the department replied, Joesph Gamerl. Oh yeah,I remember it now. He stated, ” You have to expect that. It happens all the time” as he shrugged it off! There has been numerous shootings of unarmed blacks in North Miami Beach by NMBPD officers. One being a black wheelchair bound unarmed man shot in the back at least 7 times( officer Foglegrin). A 16 yr. old black unarmed black boy shot in the colon ( officer Nelson Reyes. Settlements paid on those. A mentally challenged black man with a easily distinguishable toy gun he was reported to have just picked up from trash as he walked down the road shot. Officer not named at last report. Are just some. Who are the actual criminals. And those that assist and support them!
It seems that laws (secret and otherwise) are being changed across the country to relieve the racists, banksters, military, etc. of the crimes they commit. You can’t put a person in jail if they haven’t broken the law. How convenient.
here is some more information on the murderer:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html?ref=mostpopular
A volunteer community watch captain who shot an unarmed Florida teenager to death last month had been the subject of complaints by neighbors in his gated community for aggressive tactics, a homeowner said.
George Zimmerman has not been charged in the Feb. 26 shooting of Trayvon Martin, 17, who was walking home from a convenience store in Sanford, Fla., near Orlando. Zimmerman, who patrolled the Retreat at Twin Lakes development in his own car, had been called aggressive in earlier complaints to the local police and the homeowner’s association, according to a homeowner who spoke on the condition of anonymity.
++++++++
yeah, I would want to be anonymous too if I was this guy’s neighbor.
I am thinking a protest would be in order at this neighborhood. I would love to go and hold a sign that says JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON.
Dear God, he was a beautiful kid.
Harvest time.
Prettty much all juries in the US, especially in the South, are anti-death penalty for whites.
People, self-defense claims and cases are always EXTREMELY fact-specific, hinging on the reasonableness of the fear of harm at the moment deadly force was used. The shooter, per his 911 call, certainly appears to have been “looking for trouble,” but it is also clear that there was a confrontation at some point after the call, and the specific facts of that confrontation control the application of the law in this case. We don’t know very much about the facts of that confrontation. What we do know is that in any case with only one survivor, absent eyewitnesses or physical evidence that contradicts the survivor’s story, or a blatant internal contradiction in the survivor’s story, the survivor’s story is all the police have to work with. This would be true no matter what combination of races or ethnicities were involved. It’s a big advantage to be the only survivor and the only witness.
Apparently there are witnesses at least who heard the confrontation live and who are speaking out that their reports are being ignored or trivialized by the police. Saw this a little while ago on MSNBC reported by a local newspaper — the reporter’s name is Robles. Errrrrrrr isn’t that a Hispanic name?
Rob’s comments are quite instructive about his own fixations – the shooter vs. the victim and that race is indeed a component because of the VICTIM and the treatment of black men based on assumptions, racism and the history of of perpetrators of crimes like this have gotten off with a hand-slap or nothing at all. Your need to find some mitigating factor in Zimmerman’s ethnicity to deny racism is involved is pointless – the shooter’s preconceived notions about the “dangerous black man” are part of an American sickness — racism knows no color. Even Jesse Jackson, certainly no stranger to throwing the race card, famously noted this infects the black community as well.
I’ve tried to nail down the facts, and have been unable to thus far. Who was yelling for help?-no clear answer I’ve seen. Was there damage and grass stains on Zimmerman’s back?-no clear answer I’ve seen. The history and sizes of the two might be illuminating, but would not be legally controlling, no matter what they were. My gut tells me Zimmerman probably was at fault here, morally at least, but the relevant facts are not available yet to reach that conclusion as a reasoned legal analysis.
Not to mention the fact that some of the 911 calls were a virtual play by play of what went down. In one you can clearly hear someone hollering for help in the background and the caller claiming there was a person on the ground screaming for help, then you hear the shot. In another call, a kid out walking his dog started to walk over the the person on the ground, presumably Trayvon, but his dog slipped its collar so he went to catch the dog. When he returned the guy on the ground was dead, again after the gunshot was heard.
The 911 calls were coming in before the shot was fired, so the neighbors clearly heard/sensed something happening.
From what I have gathered on this tragedy, Zimmerman should be charged with murder in the second degree, and manslaughter at the very least.
Martin was walking down the street, Zimmerman followed him, confronted him, and then shot him. Open and shut case. Getting your ass kicked when you picked the fight does not justify deadly force as self defense. It doesn’t matter what the racial aspects are.
This whole thing just breaks my heart.
At Think Progress: Shooter of Trayvon Martin a habitual caller to 911 “fixated on crime + focused on young, black males“
It matters who started the fight, it matters who was losing the fight, it matters who was yelling for help. We don’t have authoritative answers for any of those questions yet that I have seen. Those are the questions that determine the case legally.
Thank you for bringing some reasoned clarity to the issue. I can reflexively imagine scenarios that fit my experiences and worldview all too easily, while almost simultaneously finding myself very uncomfortable with the meme ‘gunned down for carrying skittles while black’. It seemed almost too flippantly diminutive in the scheme of blacks being targeted for simply being black. (With all due respect, Pam Spaulding)
And in case any readers want to challenge that, my son is black, and we have all lived as a family seeing two-tiered non-justice up close and personal.
It is also worth noting that it is almost impossible to convict anyone in America for killing a black man, and it pretty much is impossible to get a white man executed for it. I just got through teaching this stuff in my race and ethnicity class last week.
It’s a little disturbing to me to see how ready many are to pick their usual team and make the usual points. I’ve seen so many of these situations where a controversial issue is implicated and the facts get pushed aside in favor of the preferred narrative. (Not to minimize for a moment the horrible racial history we have, but just to say this is one specific incident, not a proxy for hundreds of years of history.) I want to know the relevant facts, as I denoted them above. One real peculiarity I notice is that there really should not be a mystery at this point as to WHO was yelling for help. There is voice analysis technology that should clearly show if it was Zimmerman or not.
Pam, I read that article carefully, and did not find where it resolved any of the key ambiguities in this case.
Let us be absolutely clear about what is known concerning the events. Zimmerman was armed and riding in a SUV. Martin was unarmed and on foot. Zimmerman is substantially larger than Martin was. Zimmerman called the police and was explicitly told not to follow Martin. Zimmerman has a history of excessive 911 calls and worrying about black crime (see Pam above). Zimmerman jumped out of his SUV, with his gun, and pursued a much smaller, unarmed young man. Zimmerman shot and killed Martin.
Now you tell me where the burden of proof falls in this situation? There are simply no ambiguities that could possibly exonerate Zimmerman. Zimmerman started the fight when he pursued Martin, despite the police telling him not to.
The police are using the excuse that a 911 dispatcher is not a law agent therefore their “advice” was not mandatory. The way it looks, Florida’s Stand Your Ground law sounds like a license to kill. In this case the perpetrator instigated the confrontation. No observation of fact can deny that had Zimmerman just waited for the police he never would have found himself in a position where he felt threatened. Zimmerman confirms this on the tape when he tells the 911 agent “he’s running away.” Neighborhood Watch is just what the name says, a watch group. You watch, you take notes, you write down license plates – then you call the police. You are not a security force when on neighborhood watch. It is very clear Florida has a very flawed law. Given all this and given that Zimmerman outran the boy and tackled him to the ground it is one hell of a stretch to claim he felt threatend but apparently it’s not inconsistent with the law as written. There used to be a standard called “duty to retreat.” Simply put, if you can get out of the confrontation you have the obligation to do so.
Laws like this one are becoming ever more popular and we’ll see more and more of this in time. What is amazing is the coverup even in light of a very loose law that almost makes the victims the guilty party as an assumption. The police refused to release the tapes which are HUGELY supportive of the witnesses that say it was Martin screaming for help no less than 6 times before being shot. One witness says she say ZImmerman on top of Martin meaning Martin was subdued before he was killed. It is also clear the police tried to persuade witnesses that they did not hear what they did in fact hear and that Zimmerman was the one yelling for help but on the tape it is very clearly an adolescent voice. Also, How can Zimmerman in the wake of his mistake actually claim he was threatened when the boy only had tea and candy in his possession? How does one feel threatened when it is clear the other party had no threateneing intentions? The police claim he had a clean record when in fact he had a record of an arrest for assaulting a police officer. You have to be one hot headed idiot to hit a cop. The police from the get go assumed the kid had it coming as they never sent a homicide investigator just a narcotics office.
As my links upthread illustrate, it would not matter if the law were better written. It is almost impossible for a white (or even half white) man to get convicted of killing a black man in the US, especially in the South.
You are rushing to judgement Pam…..his fixation on black males obviously has NOTHING to do with the race. Furthermore, the fact that he chased the boy down after being told explicitly not to do so by 911 dispatchers is immaterial.
Haven’t you heard of the stand your ground law? It explicitly states that after being advised by 911 dispatchers not to follow someone you think is ‘suspicious’ you can choose to ignore 911s advisement, chase the person down, start an altercation with them, and then shoot them to death.
Stop race baiting Pam.
Obviously, I am being preposterously sarcastic here.
Thank you.
Also let’s not forget the boy was shot at close range directly in the heart which killed him instantly. That is what is called a “kill shot” in the military. Zimmerman I doubt was just lucky, he meant it to kill. Knowing the police were minutes away he could have chosen a less lethal point of entry. No release of an autopsy which would have shown trajectory and an estimate of how far away the shooter is highly suspect. The whole thing absolutely wreaks of a coverup.
Had the victim been white and the shooter black, yes, there would be no doubt he would be in jail looking at a murder wrap and probably the DP. Of that there is no doubt in my mind.
Speaking of the Florida law, Texas has one just like it. There was an incident where two men got in a scuffle. One flees the scene and goes home, gets his gun, goes back to find the other guy and shoots him dead. He was exhonerated on the ground of it being self defense. As I recall they were both white. Tempting to wonder the results had race been involved and on which side.
YES there should be no mystery as to the screaming pleading voice on the 911 tapes. Afterall it’s been about three weeks since the boy was killed.
But theer IS a mystery because it HAS NOT BEEN INVESTIGATED.
FOr crying out loud, the Atty General is having to make a visit to the juridiction of where the killing took place next week.
The shooter was fixated on black males.
The shooter was 28 yrs old the victim was 17.
The shooter was in a vehicle, in possesion of a firearm and was told by 911 dispatchers NOT to follow or engage the victim.
A juvenile witness heard Trayvon screaming for help, when the witness was interviewed by an officer on the scene the officer tried to convince the juvenile that he had actually heard Zimmerman screaming.
It’s been 3 WEEKS and still no ‘official’ word on who was screaming for help.
This situation is completely and utterly removed from any reasonable expectations of the working of a ‘justice system’ and RACE has a lot to do with it whether it bothers you or not.
“while almost simultaneously finding myself very uncomfortable with the meme ‘gunned down for carrying skittles while black’. It seemed almost too flippantly diminutive in the scheme of blacks being targeted for simply being black”
I have to disagree, from what information has been released from this stellar ‘investigation’ by authorities in Florida, it appears that a young black male WAS shot and killed for nothing more than being black and carrying skittles.
I don’t understand how hard it is to grasp this. In the absence of ANY other logical reason for the young man to have been shot the remaining illogical and racist reasons must atleast be considered.
The problem I have with that is anyone assuming someone moves across the street because of someone’s race. I may move across the street because of a large, black man yes, and would do the same if he was white as well. Nothing to do with race. All to do with gender. Sometimes it’s because it’s a man, not because race.
I have nor seen anything about Zimmerman’s size or that he was in a vehicle when following. Size might be relevant, martial arts training might be relevant. The Florida law is basically the same as here in Georgia. We have had a case where an angry person walked up to a car, and the driver shot him. Ruled legal self-defense. That is the gist of the “no retreat” self-defense rule. Zimmerman’s 911 call has two interesting things in it that create ambiguity. First, he says Trayvon was “staring” at him-what if he got angry at being tracked, and made a fuss about it? (I would have, wouldn’t you?) Second, end of call, he tells the same dispatcher who said not to follow to have the patrol car call him to find out where he was, instead of staying at the mailboxes, and the dispatcher agreed. That is a negation of telling him not to follow, or at least an ambiguity. But all that really matters is what happened when they were face-to-face, and we don’t know that from anything I’ve seen. Just to be clear, as I said initially, I think Zimmerman was “looking for trouble,” but I’m trying to do a competent LEGAL analysis here, and encouraging others to see that that is what matters, not our horrible racial history. I see many citing tangential circumstantial factors that are interesting but not relevant to a legal analysis like the police were compelled to do. And yes, I know the PD there has a bad history.
I’m pretty sure race was a factor in arousing Zimmerman’s suspicion, but that does not control the legal conclusion about what actually happened when they were face to face. I understand that you would like the certainty.
You haven’t read much about the case then. Zimmerman has been described as a large man of about 200 pounds and Martin was aroud 5-9 and 140 pounds. Where you should be studying is the aspect of the law regarding failure to retreat. Can you be relieved of your duty to retreat when you caused the very incident? If I come up to you on the street and demand information and you say back off or I’ll kick your ass and then I shoot you dead, is that self defense just because I underestimated your aggressiveness? This law is insane because it places the burden of proof on a dead person.
Realitychecker doesn’t recognize the realities you bring up in your post, and I imagine Realitychecker never will recognize those realities.
I am an anthropologist who studies and teaches race and ethnicity. Racism is all around us, in the very air we breath. It really is the default condition in our society, whether conscious or not (and it often is not).
FWIW, I grew up in Oklahoma in the 50s and 60s, attended segregated schools for the first few years, and probably heard the N-word pretty much everyday for the first 35 years of my life. NOT in my family (both grandfathers excepted), however, and my mama would have slapped me sideways into Sunday if she had heard me say that.
Base off the evidence of his obvious obsession with black males (as attested to by the 911 staff that took his calls) I am 100% certain that race was a factor in Zimmerman’s ‘suspicions’.
Legal conclusion? What don’t you get about this incident NOT having been properly INVESTIGATED? What legal conclusion are you talking about?
You need to change your handle hoss, unless your handle means checking to make sure no reality is dicussed or considered.
No, all that really matters is that Zimmerman deliberately provoked this confrontation when he got out of the SUV. He did not need to and was told not to by the police dispatcher. The information on his size and the SUV has been in every account I have read. While it may be impossible to prosecute him under this abomination of a law, it really is a license (for white people) to kill at will. I am quite certain (and the statistics back me up) that the law would have found a way to prosecute if the roles had been reversed.
Reality is trying to make legal sense out of a law which itself cannot make any legal sense. That is why this incident is so important because it shows how horrible these new self defense laws really are. They place the burden of proof on a dead victim and the assumption of innocence on a killer. And they remove any responsibility for the killer to attempt any resolution other than with lethal force. The complete irony here is that had Zimmerman used a knife with a blade longer than 4 inches instead of a 9 millimeter gun he would have been held for homicide using an illegal weapon.
Thanks for your input on this thread DrDick.
I find that one has to be in complete denial to assume race had nothing to do with this tragedy, and I think this kind of denial is very dangerous to all of us as a society.
I’ve read at least a half-dozen accounts, and haven’t seen anything about Zimmerman’s size yet. I can only analyze the facts I have access to, you get that, don’t you? Even if true, that does not control the case. Some kind of physical confrontation took place. All that matters is what happened there. I’m sorry if the law pisses you off, but it is a very lenient law. In your hypothetical, what if Traynor punched him in the face and proceeed to kick his ass? What if it was Zimmerman screaming for help? I’ve studied martial arts, size isn’t everything. I don’t blame you for hating the ambiguities here, but they are here nonetheless. Getting mad at me won’t make them go away. I have a long and deep history of working self-defense cases, maybe you should take that into consideration.
Agree entirely. It is particularly galling for me, since I have been lecturing on the effects of racial and ethnic hierarchies and the disparities these produce. Friday I lectured on the distortions of the legal and criminal justice system in the US that result. With all that fresh in my mind, I have zero tolerance for any kind of denial.
I don’t disagree that the investigation was probably half-hearted. Maybe you just haven’t read my comments carefully. I suggest you re-read, because your tone has become quite offensive, and I don’t think a rational person would take that tone if he had read my comments carefully.
Doc, if the size and SUV info was in “every account” you’ve read, why isn’t either fact in any of the links the author of this post has provided?
Gosh, SenatorGovernment; it appears that I was extremely unclear in trying to make my point. Let me try again.
From where I stand, and absent any evidence that Travyon Martin provoked Zimmerman (and I admit it’s my wont to believe it so), to say he was killed *for nothing* or even *for nothing more than being a black teen* would work for me in this context. To add the skittles (and why not the iced tea?) trivializes it with the intentional absurdity. Now I get how useful the memes like *arrested for driving while black* and other absurdist theme can be to deflect rage and pain over being deemed suspicious for black males. Chris Rock’s sketch makes an effort along those lines, and people will be divided over its usefulness or not. (Our son watched it many times, and love the bejeezus out of it; sometimes at the end of the day, humor is what’s left in the face of such unfairness, even if it covers anger.
But there is no evidence that skittles or tea played a part in this, and deflects from the seriousness of widespread racial injustice, IMO.
p.s. My personal favorite line is ‘always drive with a white friend; the truth and the bitterness ring out loudly, imo.
In your example an innocent person defending themselves against an attacker would be dead and the attacker set free because he felt “threatened.” Martin and Zimmerman did not just accidentally cross paths. Zimmerman stalked him and took the law into his own hands and used a purely subjective standard for what was “suspicious” in this case a black youth walking on a sidewalk at night. That is by definition a vigilante. His refusal to accept the 911 dispatchers advice clearly proves his intentions and that was an altercation. His defense is equally ridiculous – he “felt” threatened. And clearly he had no reason to feel that way. So now the law has to get inside the guy’s mind, an impossibility, and discard the “reasonable person” standard in the process. A “reasonable person” would have taken every effort to protect themselves by laying low and waiting for help to arrive which was clearly his option. One also does not casually carry concelead weapons when one does not expect to use them. All this points to is the insanity of this type of law and how we’ve gone too far in letting uitrained people carry weapons on their person.
The difficulties of presenting the story of a dead person are present in every lethal self-defense case. What we are really dealing with here is that Florida’s law is at an extreme end of the spectrum in terms of leniency for the one claiming self-defense, and so is its policy on weapons. In NY, where I grew up and practiced law, the self-defense law was at the other extreme of that spectrum. As was the law on weapons. So, the state involved, and the very specific facts of the case, are very key. Sloppy and biased police are no help. either, wherever they are.
The SUV is in the post itself as well as in Blow’s column. I do not just read this account, but do not remember where I saw the reference to his size, but have seen it several times. You can also see from the photographs of the two (see Trayvon’s above and this for Zimmerman) that Martin is slight and Zimmerman is bulky. He was also armed and Martin was not. Everything else is just equivocation to excuse a totally unjustified killing and an abominable law (the outcomes of which were predicted by many of us).
I am sorry, but those memes do not “trivialize” the events or deflect rage, nor are they intended to. Instead, they do exactly the opposite by highlighting the ultimate absurdity of the justifications for the acts.
Realitychecker, I have read your comments, and I find them ‘highly offensive’.
You display an inexplicalbe fetish and all encompassing fascination with the nature of the self defense and stand your ground law, and a similar inexplicable aversion to admitting a racial factor in this case when it is crystal clear that race was involved. These factors combine to make it impossible to view your comments withoug finding them ‘highly offenisive’
Also, am glad that my comments and tone have highly offended you. You are only encouraging me to continue by stating this.
If you are an adult the you should painfully aware that laws are at all subject to interpretation, other mitigating factors and last but not least a thing called a TRIAL.
The ‘investigation’ has been botched from the word go.
The ATTY General of the U.S. has to now come in (not that he’s a hero, far from it) but what more evidence of serious problems with this case does any RATIONAL person need?
You want to change the stand your ground laws? So do I, I think they are terrible.
But the fact remains, that that law, just like ANY other law, does not exist or get applied in a vacum.
I neglected to mention that when I first started reading the diary, based on the title, I had expected the skittles to some major part of the events, as in: Zimmerman mistook the skittles for gun, and yes, those *mistaken perceptions* do get reported by cops or others under investigation, real or not.
Well, with that comment, you’ve wandered far into the realm of not knowing much law and not thinking clearly. Getting “inside the guy’s mind” is ubiquitous in criminal law. And the analysis does not start where you start it, because all Zimmerman did was legal until the confrontation, so all that matters is what happened at that point and going forward. And, I carried a concealed weapon legally for years in NYC (almost impossible to get), and never shot anyone or wanted to, although I had several occasions where I could have done so with perfect legal jutification. So, I don’t doubt your good intentions, but please recalibrate.
Exactly. And what stands out here is the clear coverup; the 911 tapes were not released per policy nor has tha autopsy report. That report will come out at some point and I predict it wilkl bring down the entire Sanford PD. They are co-conspirators in my view. Even IF Zimmerman had no racial motivations can it be more obvious that the SPD did? Who sends a narcotics investigator to a murder scene unless they assumed it was some crack dealing black guy that got what he deserved?
OK, I see the reference in this post, I had gone on and read several other accounts that did not reference the car. However, the analysis I have repeatedly offered makes that fact irrelevant, as is the size difference. The difficulty here appears to be that you have not studied the law around self-defense issues. I have. It is not permissible to make assumptions based on general racial attitudes in doing this kind of legal analysis. That’s why they say, “It’s what you can prove in court that counts.” Believe me, I wish we had a perfect system, and that all the guilty, and only the guilty, got punished every time. But we don’t have that system.
Right on. The Narco officer sent to respond and the absence of homicide officers just speaks volumes.
I for one cannot wait until they get to the bottom of this. Thankfully, I do not believe the shooter, or the Sanford PD is going to be able to keep the lid on this. And hopefully, it will bring some small measure of comfort to Travon’s family to have an actual investigation free from racial bias.
If anyone reading has not signed the petition yet, I encourage you to do so: http://www.change.org/petitions/prosecute-the-killer-of-17-year-old-trayvon-martin
344,699 people (me included) have signed it already.
Anthropologists, sociologist and political scientists have examined disparities in police and judicial action over and over controlling for local (same law applies) and virtually every other factor they can imagine. These are quality studies that are consistent across discipline. They show whites are substantially less likely to face charges, face lower charges, are less likely to be convicted and, if convicted, receive lighter sentences than blacks for the same action.
It would take me awhile to find a link. It sounds as though you’re likely to have one at hand. Could you find some reality for realitychecker to check?
It’s the clear pattern, not the specific case.
“Also, am glad that my comments and tone have highly offended you. You are only encouraging me to continue by stating this.” Really, Senator? REALLY? Is that where we are? I have agreed there was a racial factor here, and I have agreed the police were biased and incompetent. And yet you take pleasure from knowing that your offensive mocking comments are offensive? What the fuck is your major malfunction, Senator? Is it just that you can’t read, or is it actually that you need to reveal yourself as a gaping asshole? Cuz you ain’t no legal scholar, Senator.
And you apparently know nothing but the law. Sometime, possibly as an undergraduate, you must have had at least one course that talked about justice.
I’m as aware of the statistical data and patterns as anyone here. But you can’t make a case in criminal court based on that kind of data, you have to base it on the specific provable facts. I just saw a CNN report that says there were witnesses who the police did not interview, and that really smells, but even they did not say they saw the confrontation, and the specific facts of that specific confrontation is what really matters. I hope they have an outside investigation, and if they can make a case aginst Zimmerman, I hope they fry him.
It is your analysis that is irrelevant, not the facts. I am not in the least concerned with legalistic pedantry when we have a clear case of wrongful death. This was clearly a racially motivated incident, whether you can prove that in court or not. And Zimmerman clearly provoked the incident through his behavior. If the law says otherwise, y’all need to change your laws. I have already said that the Florida gun carry law is an abomination and basically a license for white bigots to hunt people of color, as it was intended to be.
I already provided a couple, but he does not want to hear that. Denial is not merely a river in Egypt.
I am sorry, but your legalistic formalism is enormously offensive. When I was growing up, it was illegal for blacks to drink from the same water fountains as whites or use the same restrooms. That did not make it right. And I can guarantee you that if Martin were white and Zimmerman were black, the authorities would find a way to prosecute, would convict, and probably execute him. See my links upthread. The law is a tool used by the powerful to oppress the poor and powerless.
Further, the same legalese offered won’t apply when it comes to, say, the subject of Bradly Manning.
In that case I highly doubt you’d see a retreat by some of these commenters on the basis of “Not all the facts are known. Sorry you don’t like the law – it is what it is. A reasoned legal analysis doesn’t support _____. Despite the narrative you’d like to support, ______.”
I could be wrong.
I am trying to be nice and give him the benefit of the doubt, that he is not just and overt racist.
You have spent good energy nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking. It can be quite tedious.
Oh, excuse me, I must have missed the memo where Dr. Dick got elevated to Emperor Dick. So, knowing that, I demand an explanantion from you as to why you haven’t corrected all the injustices around the mortgage scandals. Cuz, man, er, Emperor, I am SURE there was illegal stuff there.
Now I’m an “overt racist”? You really want to go with that?
Yes but can you PROVE it? White collar crime by bankers is notoriously hard to prosecute, and while I agree with your generalities, the law needs to gather evidence in a particular case.
You’d think an attorney would know better than to make this sort of generalization.
I know you aren’t a racist. I trust, and even agree with, your judgment that it will not be easy to get a jury to convict Zimmerman. We’re communicating from different planes. You are viewing the background as context in which the legal system has to operate. Those of us who have been debating you see it as evidence of what we are talking about.
I would appreciate your sense of whether the family has a civil claim. I wonder if the watch was officially linked to the community.
Apologies for the harshness of some of my remarks. Every time I see a photo of that young man I become despondent and furious at once.
Nitpicking? I was explaining what the title implied to me, or at least foreshadowed. On a recent diary, I titled a piece:
I believe Margaret was the first one in, wondered about the scare quotes, and asked did I believe it was policy, etc. I explained that the claim the soldier had been called ‘rogue’ by the early military statements front-loaded the meme that it was a wackjob operating on his own, not the fault of the military, yada yada…and it made me grasp immediately that the truth was out there, but we would never hear it. So far, that’s true, as far as I can tell. And I am not mindful of the repeat tours the soldiers, often even just National Guards-people are forced to endure. Or any of the other PTSD-generated underlying contributing factors; it’s that the military doesn’t want those considerations entering into their preferred narratives, nor does the soldier’s defense attorney.
So no; I have not tried to ‘nitpick’, but say what a title can mean to a reader, though I am clearly not the conventional reader, at least compared to readers here.
As I said above, I’ve blogged about many racist murders by cops over the years, and they are gut-kicking, as I said way at the top of this thread. Had to walk away and meditate to clear my heart and soul of rage, marymccurnin. Brought too many memories back, including experiences my black son has gone through, and I, by extension as his mother.
Never mind the rest, I guess. Except to say that I know realitychecker, and he is no racist, he knows the law, even when he disagrees with it, and likely has found many, many times that the Law sometimes has no direct relationship to ‘justice’.
It’s Rob, but you can insist on calling me Bob if you wish. My point in bringing up the Stand Your Ground law, is that in the last five months alone, in Central Florida, 13 people have used this defense. Out of six men killed and four wounded, only one of those people were armed. This law has Police in Orlando not even investigating these types of shootings, and only sending it to the state prosecuter to look at.
Regardless of the race of any of those people, these laws need to be repealed. Police no longer investigate murders like tis one BECAUSE of these laws. YES, I agree that racism is an issue in this story as well, but I do believe that this murder should be talked about in light of the current laws that allow these things to happen with impunity.
I also believe that the fact that the shooter was hispanic was important because I read the comments BEFORE I posted about that, and already saw people jumpping to the conclussion that the shoter was white. It was ASSUMED that he was, and it should be addressed if discussing this as an issue about race. If it is important to note the color of one individual, then it should be equally important to note the color of the other one, not just the fact that he was not black.
I’ve been a LONG time reader of Pam’s, back to the early days of this blog, pre FDL days. And no, I have not posted much on this blog since it moved, but the lack of comments does not negate the issues I bring up.
I used to be Burnsey on the old blog.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-17/news/os-qanda-trayvon-martin-shooting-20120317_1_law-enforcement-castle-doctrine-deadly-force
you took that out of mid conversation. I also brought up, at the same time, the issue of the Stand your Ground Law in Florida, which allows people to get away with this type of thing. I also thought more attention should be given to that aspect of the story as well. In Florida, it is illegal for police to arrest a person when they use this defense, It is written in the law that police cannot detain arrest or otherwise hold the shooter in these cases. It is the LAW that allows the killer of this innocent young man to go free from prosecution, and that law needs to be repealed.
Your reading comprehension seems severely impaired, both in this and your previous comment. All of your arguments have the form of excusing the acts of Zimmerman in terms of legal formalism (it is OK, because he did not break the law, or at least you cannot prove he did). At the same time, you express no outrage at the willful murder of an innocent teenager. The easiest explanation for that is that you are simply a racist. I specifically said that I was not accusing you of that, preferring to assume instead that you are simply a soulless pedantic twit.
Kelly’s comment is looking far more accurate right now. I may have to revise my opinion.
I do NOT deny that racism is an issue here. I read the early comments and some people were commenting that the shooter was white. He is NOT. That does NOT mean I don’t think the individual is racist, but when you point out the victim is black, many of the readers assume that someone named Zimmerman is white. Asking for clrification of that fact does not mean I didn’t think the crime itself wasn’t the act of a racist.
Zimmerman is mixed and would appear to be what is generally referred to as a “Hispanic white”. I have known a fair number of folks in that situation who self-identify as white. I am not assuming that he does, but only that you make too much of this fact.
Also, I would point out that I have been fighting for more than 40 years to change laws and attitudes which allow this kind of atrocity to occur without repercussions for those responsible.
actually, he’s given a very accurate description of the law in Florida as it stands. There have been over 16 cases llike this in central Florida in the past FIVE months alone. Orlando Police don’t even bother investigating cases where self defense is used as the defense. They merely send the information to the State Prosecutor. Justice is being denied to very many people, hopefully because of the racial issues surrounding this case, and the amount of attention it has recieved, these laws might get taken off the books. This case can, and SHOULD be used to highlight BOTH issues. If you are concerned about the racism of this case, then you should also be concerned about the LAW which allows racist people to kill whom they wish, with only their claim of self defense to stand on.
I would not have raised the issue, if their had not been comments assuming his color to be white. If people are comming away with the impression that he was white, from reading this post, then it is attention that is due.
As I said upthread, these laws are simply hunting licenses for white folks looking to kill brown people and that is what they have always been intended to be (as I also said, I am quite certain that the authorities would find a way to prosecute a person of color killing a white man). They are an outrageous abominations that need to be repealed (or overturned in the courts).
Urk. This is in reply to yours at 138.
I agree with you. I am interested in both. It seemed to me that it was realitychecker who was narrowly focused.
Please see my comment @ 127.
He is white! Hispanic is considered white.
From wikipedia:
Even if one skims over the obvious facts (1. unarmed person, 2. armed person, 3. armed person hunts down unarmed person after being told not to and 4. fatally shoots him) and leaves motivation out of the picture, there’s no excuse for zero investigation/not taking the armed person into custody – just letting him go about his business after a claim of self-defense. The DOJ had to be called into this.
Given the long recent history in the news of innocent people of color being on the wrong and fatal end of a gun/taser by law enforcement, trigger-happy civilians feel they have the wind behind their backs because of laws like FL and TX. They really do think they can pull a “Death Wish” act like this, basted in the juices of society’s racism.
Sad, but we keep seeing it occur — and then too many good people spend inordinate amounts of time trying to debate the racism out of the story. We have to claim it and own it — all of us. The country is still suffering from these biases being passed down. That they exist, as the data suggest, is not the problem. It’s that too many of us don’t bother to try to rise above our natural biases and innate fears of difference. And people need to remember, black on black crime is statistically higher than black on white crime – and black law enforcement officers are not free of bias against blacks they may police in poverty-stricken, crime-ridden areas. This case is clearly about race, as the story has unfolded. Now what does society, specifically Sanford, FL do about justice in this case? The behavior so far suggests federal intervention is required.
I think your point about his ignoring the being told not to pursue, or however that instruction was said, is particularly very interesting…Maybe he is not altogether sound or really feels he can ignore the law, or being told to hold off, and he can proceed on his own. Seems that in itself would have gotten him picked up if cops on the scene knew of those instructions.
This tedious discussion and nit picking is a perfect of example of why the Liberals and Democrats are so feeble in defense of our values and principles.
I really think too many of us are as much in denial of embedded racism and the realities of growing up black and male in the south as the right wing.
Thank you. There would definitely be room for a civil suit. There may even be a good criminal case, I’m just saying it needs to be based on facts established by a good investigation, and the specific facts around the confrontation itself are the ones that matter under Florida law, not what we are inclined to read into the situation based on statistics or gut feelings. I have already said I FEEL that Zimmerman was looking for trouble. To say that analysis of the facts doesn’t matter, as Dr. Dick did above, takes us to a very bad place. And to call me a racist for sharing my knowledge about my profession is not only unfair, it’s completely incorrect. My personal history would make that clear if I shared it here, but I should not have to because I have an extensive comment history that reveals who and what I am.
Gee, I’d always assumed that Dick was your name. Now I know better. It’s a descriptor. Forgive my error. I excused NOTHING. Facts bother you, and are unncessary to your opinion formation. Soft science.
I wonder if it is denial as much as it is horror. Any close relationship with a black person pretty quickly exposes some of the experiences you site as realities. In the south it is very hard to close one’s mind that what still goes on.
Thank you. I understand where you’re coming from. As I now know you are aware, the facts could be identical in every aspect but race, and the response of the justice system could be, in fact probably would be, radically different. The law is the law, but police officers and DAs have a lot of discretion.
I think we’ve had a heated disagreement here over a matter of emphasis. Part of why it’s heated is the anger the circumstances generate in us.
Profound RevBev. Yes. I agree. It is the horror. We would rather talk about the technicalities and trivia than embrace the reality. Same with the war on women.
The analysis of the “facts” clearly shows that Zimmerman was probably racist, had a history of targeting young black men, deliberately stalked Martin and then left his vehicle to pursue him on foot against the directions of law enforcement, shot and killed an unarmed teenager, who was innocent of anything, without provocation. That is what the facts say. What you keep saying is that Zimmerman did nothing wrong. You may be correct that he did not break the law (or at least cannot be prosecuted), but what he did was commit unprovoked, deliberate murder of an innocent child. Your lack of outrage at this takes is what takes us to a very bad place. That is the same logic that gave us this. When the law allows these barbaric outrages, it is the duty of all citizens to rise up in outrage and demand change.
I think you need to read that while looking in the mirror.
People, I agree with talking stick that this conversation has passed the point of productivity and is generating more heat than light.
I am hopeful that the considerable effort people spent for a very long time today is one way of coming to grips with embedded racism in ourselves individually and as a community here.
I don’t think those of us who have become strident, myself included, are that far apart.
I need to leave now. I thank all for their time and effort and for teaching me.
Thanks, and yes the rhetoric in the women’s issue exchange is cruel and irrational. Where do we start?
Take care. Good night.
You know in what high regard I hold you, TalkingStick, and I value your opinions. But I need to say that I’ve been writing diaries on indigenous and First American issues and brave and wonderful political actions that have invigorated me, and almost no one seems to read them, nor do they garner many comments.
I’ve even gone to some lengths to remind readers that in many respects, we of the 99% here in the states, and globally, are becoming increasingly marginalized third-worlders, and we need to dig into that fact, and unite in defense of ourselves and the planet we’re killing.
If there is a culture or cultures that have been found inconvenient and worth nothing but systematically killing and robbing, it is they, and they have no voices in the American dialogue except the songs they sing of themselves.
If time allowed, I would tell stories my my town about the marginalization of Hispanics and Mexicans, and the dominant cultural forces that caused them to deny their own heritages to the extent that when I organized multicultural events over the years for the schools here, only the most recent Mexican immigrants would even admit to being non-anglo, and therefore…came to help enthusiastically, god love them.
It’s sad to me that this thread has devolved to the point it has, and people’s attempt to bring other than reflexive emotion (and I did, too, above) and even slightly different takes on this heinous killing have been met with such arch accusations.
Peace to you,
wd
On that I agree entirely. The justice system is broken from top to bottom. I interned with the co-founder of the Innocence Project (hardly a breeding ground for racists lol), so I am very aware of the issues everyone is focused on here. And I share the sentiment wholeheartedly. I just thought we wanted some reference to the legalities, and the incomplete rendition of the facts so far.
And I highly regard your contributions and you as “good people” Wendy and as well so many of you others in this truly remarkable community. You all keep my spirits from lagging. It is discouraging to empty one’s heart online and not have a reply. But after some years I have come to accept it and be joyful for the one who does drop in. The more voices the better chance one is heard.
I was just trying to point out how we who think things through and make fairness and acceptance almost a religion sometimes get lost while the evil is happening. And I do think the rawness and sadistic nature of much of what the right wing is now doing makes it hard to embrace it even just long enough to resist.
All of you have a great night. I know I will sleep better for the conversation.
I’ve seen NOTHING that tells us how the encounter between the two started, and no complete account of what transpired during it. Without those facts, you are simply talking out of your ass. That may work in your classroom, but it’s just empty rhetoric to anyone who understands these things. You can dismiss the law all you want, but it just makes you look stupid. I’d change a lot if I could, hell, almost everything, but I don’t lose sight of the difference between what I want and what is in place now. Your grandiosity is blinding you.
disgusting.
You really think he would have been let got if he had murdered a white kid?
“Gated community” doesn’t mean secure community. There were no locked gates and Trayvon was taking a shortcut back to his father’s girlfriends house, across a field.
I hear you.
Another clear thinker heard from. Covering yourself with excrement, again, PW. You must like it.
Mary, please, he’s only white when it comes to this case, and how people want to see him. Please peovide documentation that people in the US of A consider the “Brown Menace” to be white. I guess you forfet those laws in Florida and the constant racist barage that is thrown at the Hispanic population of this country. I Honestly can’t believe people here would claim this shooter is a white man. He’s white when he does something other minorities abhor, but brown when white white people look at him. THAT is the point that needs some exploring. Why is someone who would normally be called a minority all of a sudden considered white by people who yesterday would have called him a minority?
I did not EVER say he would have gotten off if he shot a white person. PLEASE, read what I wrote, AND read what I replied to before accusing me. The person I replied to insinuated that the man was white and a white Jury was gonna let him off. I simply corrected the FACTS that this shooter was not “white” (as commonly considered in the US, by real people, not species -or genus-sorry not a science expert- catagorizations). I do believe this was a rcist act, that animus toward black people contributed to the crime of murder.
Comrade, you’re spitting into a desperate sympathy. Plus, technically, you are wrong. Furthermore, whiteness is relative.
Being clinical in the face of this horror might be revealing, might not. What does make it worth the slings and arrows?
Right you are. The purpose of this thread has clearly been to see who can most loudly proclaim themselves the Savior Hero of the Blacks. So, gotta have a bad guy to save the Blacks from. It’s obvious, but it’s sad. Facts, law, accuracy, nuance, no room for any of that on a I Am the Greatest Savior Hero of the Blacks thread. Duly noted.
Comrade RC, your ascription of ego I must circumscribe. Here there is an incapacitated, livid rage.
Is that a profession or a passion, comrade?
Well you certainly have taken care of presenting the opposite.
Your insults violate FDL’s terms of service.
You know this.
And yet you continue. You should know that violating terms of service is grounds for a time-out or release to the Internet.
You continue to pursue this “account” issue as if you’ve read more than one account, yet your ignorance of specific facts mentioned in multiple accounts shows you haven’t read many at all. Citing others’ ‘ignorance’ and’grandiosity’ doesn’t excuse your own.
Teddy, somebody called me a “racist.” Where were you? Somebody else declared their deliberate intent to make offensive remarks to me, and that person wrote a diary on 3/16 declaring his intent to make such over-the-top attacks whenever he could. Where were you? The NYT today reports that Zimmerman was NOT in his SUV when the confrontation occurred, and that the police believed Zimmerman was the one screaming for help, two key facts that most here had absolutely wrong yesterday. And we now now the victim was less than perfect, although yesterday everybody was just focused on Zimmerman’s character. So, I was right. And I have read many accounts. Guess what? They all have variances from each other. Go away. Or lecture somebody else who really needs it.