2009′s Unfriendly Fire: How the Gay Ban Undermines the Military and Weakens America, by Dr. Nathaniel Frank, provided an eye-opening look at the ban on gays and lesbians in the military known as “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.” Frank drew on hundreds interviews with government officials, military leaders, policymakers and those serving under the ban, recounted how the now-repealed policy was originally implemented, and the costs — financial and human — that this policy took on our military.
Frank has now published a report, Accountability And DADT: A Framework for Assessing Predictions of Disruption Caused by Openly Gay Military Service that takes a look at 60 of the main predictions of disruption that would allegedly result from openly gay service, and the names of the people who made them — you know, the “usual suspects” of hysteria on the right. Nathaniel Frank noted to the Blend:
“Opponents of equality always claim it will disrupt society; almost always, it doesn’t. If this holds true for ending DADT, will the naysayers have the courage to say, ‘I was wrong’?”
Accountability is critical, as equality opponents are trying the same trick with marriage equality—insisting that equal treatment will disrupt society, as the right wing always does, yet the disruptions never come to pass. If we don’t hold people accountable, they’re more likely to get away with it again.”
At Huffington Post, Frank has a piece up “Will Defenders of DADT Stand By Their Dire Predictions?” that shines a light on the bigots responsible for the naysaying and anti-gay hysterical propaganda:
During the years I spent researching and writing about “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” I frequently pointed out that when other countries lifted their bans, nothing bad happened. But people weren’t convinced that the same would hold true here. As my colleague Aaron Belkin has theorized, in the U.S., fear and anxiety about change had swelled into full-blown paranoia. And this sentiment was being exploited and inflamed by political opportunists. There is even firsthand evidence that military and cultural leaders exaggerated the threat to unit cohesion throughout the debate over “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” in an effort to give credibility to what was, at bottom, simple prejudice.
This is why assessing the ultimate impact of ending “Don’t Ask, Don’ Tell” matters. And it matters enormously. Throughout our history, opponents of equal treatment have insisted that it would wreak havoc on society, indeed that it would cause such grave disruptions that equality was an unacceptable threat to civilization. This “disruption” theory was wielded against African Americans, immigrants, women, gays and lesbians, and transgender people, to name a few. It is perhaps the sharpest tool in the arsenal of people who refuse to rise above passions and prejudice, but who know that they can’t win their argument using religious and moral dogma alone. So they deploy arguments that sound secular and pragmatic — equality will somehow harm kids, undermine the family, destroy civilization — to mask what really amounts to feelings of discomfort, resentment or simple opposition to sharing first-class citizenship.
The “disruption” theory was exactly what was applied — and finally defeated — in the effort to keep gay people from serving openly in uniform. For years, we heard that lifting the ban would undermine cohesion, spur a mass exodus of troops from service, hurt military families, and actually cost lives, that it would disrupt our defenses, weaken our country, and threaten civilization. Yet the ban ended three months ago, with little fanfare. Were all the naysayers wrong? Have any of them been held accountable? And will opponents of equality going forward get away with using the same “disruption” theory to convince policymakers to oppose full equality for LGBT and other Americans?
Because that’s what they’re trying. We hear that letting gay couples marry will disrupt the social fabric of American life, undermine marriage, kill a “culture of life,” dry up the Western population, and threaten our civilization. If this is what was said about gay people serving openly (which it was), and if none of it happened, then the lesson is monumental: a culture of anxiety has become a politics of paranoia, which has pulled the wool over our collective eyes in service to maintaining an unjust status quo. Will we let it happen again and again and again? Will anyone be held accountable for steering us so terribly wrong?
The juicy quotes from some of the more colorful opponents of repeal are below the fold.
Some of the Predictions of Harm and Disruption Resulting from Openly Gay Military Service
(from the report, “Accountability and DADT“)
“I hope that when we pass this legislation that we will understand that we are doing great damage, and we could possibly and probably—as the commandant of the Marine Corps said and I’ve been told by literally thousands of members of the military—harm the battle effectiveness, which is so vital to the support, to the survival of our young men and women in the military.”
If the law is overturned and open homosexuals are welcomed into the military, the number of homosexuals in the armed forces can only increase—leading to a corresponding increase in same-sex sexual assaults.”The outrageous homophobe Peter Sprigg, even went on Hardball to declare that “Gay Sex Should Be Banned.” I doubt he’s changed his position on that matter, but will he ever admit that repeal of DADT has not caused the military to fall apart?




22 Comments


All those terrible things that are going to happen if same-sex marriage is legalized are already not happening after seven years.* Why should we expect anything different from DADT repeal?
*Massachusetts still has the lowest divorce rate in the country.
The anti-gay industry is now adopting a “wait and see” attitude. Initially, it was all about short term impact, which was nothing. Now we are starting hear about arguments on how these social changes will take “a couple of generations“ to impact society, marriage, military, Jesus, religious liberty, etc
Way to early to determine the impact of the end of DADT.
henry81 and tomonthebay:
The anti-gay industry is bucking both history and human psychology. The social history of America has been a general trend toward broader inclusion and greater tolerance, and that goes all the way back to the Founders and constitutional guarantees of religious freedom. Sure, there have been periods of backlash — history is a series of reactions — but the overall trend is obvious. And as people become accustomed to something new, it’s no longer threatening, which is what the professional gay-bashers are losing on, and they know it.
As for DADT repeal specifically, there have always been gays in the military, and at least recently, many of them were known. Nobody cared. Fighting 21st century wars is going to cause a lot more changes in the military than open service by gays and lesbians. Who knows? Maybe with more open gays and lesbians signing up, the Army won’t have to grant so many moral waivers to drug dealers and wife-beaters to meet recruitment goals.
Not to mention removing one of the biggest barriers to reporting sexual assaults.
I always thought the anti-repeal faction’s predictions were incredibly insulting to our serving troops. I’m glad to see things are going well, and that the media (NBC Nightly News, for one) is covering how well the transition is going. I never expected anything less of our troops in combat and in service.
The people who claim to ‘support the troops’ had some pretty wacky things to say about their reaction to the repeal of DADT, which did not happen. They should be held accountable, but like the proponents of the War on Iraq, that probably won’t happen. DC seems to be quite the accountability-free zone.
Once again we have an election and the biggest problem the country has is gay people? Please! Why do we have to go through this absurd ritual every 4 years! I would be willing to bet that some of those ‘phobes’ are very deep in the closet.
Anyway, Happy Holidays to everyone.
Why? In 1947, the approval rating for military integration was 7%. Fifty years later, Colin Powell was Ch., JCOS.
IT’S THE MILITARY! THEY FOLLOW ORDERS! Unless you are expecting sedition or outright treason to erupt, WHY should there be a problem?
Speaking of false predictions regarding DADT:
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/11/15/dadt-a-political-disaster-entirely-of-obamas-making/
But i guess apologizing for being wrong is only good for other folks.
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/12/22/dadt-change-shouldnt-have-been-this-hard/
Well, Jon Walker was then and is now quite full of it. Starting with the allegedly huge majorities we supposedly had. Clinton had the same majorities that Barack Obama had. Carter had a larger majority so this whole notion that Obama’s majorities were so unprecedented that he could easily get whatever he wanted passed is just false.
Secondly much of the majority he did have was just fictional. Kennedy and Byrd were both dying and Franken was being held up by Coleman’s shenanigans.
So the study that Walker derided in his article was actually a necessity to get the votes needed to repeal the thing. Also part of the reasons why the transition went so smoothly is because of the study which not only dealt with whether it should be done but in how to implement it smoothly. People like to pretend that Truman signed an executive order and like magic the military was desegregated. It actually took years and was met with huge resistance. Perhaps more study and planning was called for.
The point of Walker’s article was self gratification. It was to take away credit where it was due- Barack Obama’s leadership and transfer it to where it was not due – FDL activists. DADT did not happen because of Dan Choi and FDL it happened despite of them.
Basically about half the articles i’ve seen from Walker has been to somehow explain how every success of the Obama administration is somehow secretly a failure! DADT repeal done? Well, he should of done it sooner! And he’s not really the one responsible anyway! Someone getting cancer treatment because of the ACA? Well, many more could be saved! (true, but that would actually involve him INFORMING people about the program and who the hell has time for that? Journalism is trashing a President! Not informing the public!).
The fact is that both FDL and the right have a problem admitting they’re wrong. They should look at their own selves before they point fingers.
Very impressive post. Thank you. Until tonight, I had no idea so much bullshit could be condensed into such a small amount of words.
Be even more impressive though if instead of viewing that fantasy world you’re spouting off about you’d open up your eyes and see the real world and maybe help those of us that want to fix it.
Or, you could keep pretending facts aren’t facts and the sky really is red.
And for the record, there have been quite literally DOZENS of posts on FDL from a myriad of commenters admitting they were wrong. I’ve done so myself at least two dozen times, and many, many, many others here have done the same. It’s hard to fathom just how wrong we were about Obama, but admitting we were very wrong hasn’t been a problem at all.
But I’ll do it again anyway. I was wrong. I was completely and totally wrong. I not only voted for Obama, I gave money and phone banked a little. I really did believe Obama was a genuine progressive, or at the very least, a genuine Democrat. And as the facts now show, he is neither. That’s my bad, my fault, and I’m working on ensuring it won’t happen again. But if it does, I’ll happily admit I’m wrong again.
Nice post Pam.
But the right is NEVER held accountable for the bullshit they always spew. When the Democrats passed and Clinton signed a tax increase, the economy was going to crash, there would be millions of new unemployed, and America would lose it’s place as the world’s largest economy. Were ANY of them EVER held accountable for that???
In 2001 and 2002 Saddam had WMD. They knew he had WMD. They even knew where it was (remember Rummy’s funny explanation of them knowing where they were and explaining where??). AND, the Iraqi’s would welcome our troops as liberators. Instead of facing harm, our warriors would be rained upon with flowers. AND the entire cost of the war would be paid for from Iraqi oil sales.
AND the tax cuts in 2001 and 2002 would create millions and millions of jobs. AND if we didn’t fight the terrorists over they we’d have to fight them over here. AND allowing gays to marry would end marriage. AND I could go on and on and on.
But they are NEVER held accountable. Their voters have given them a free pass to lie, cheat, steal, ANYTHING and they will still vote for them, and so they do. In the old days an independant media might have attempted to at least put a spotlight on how wrong they were, but we don’t even get that any more.
I challenge anyone to name a single issue where the GOP’s main argument isn’t a lie. Just one.
What bullshit? Are you saying that Clinton didn’t have a similar majority? Are you saying that Carter didn’t have a greater majority? Are you saying that Senators didn’t put off their vote until after they got the results of the study? Are you saying that Jon Walker doesn’t have a history of trying to explain how successes really aren’t?
Cute comeback. But admitting you were wrong about who you voted for is not the same as admitting you were wrong about legislation and you know it. Furthermore Barack Obama IS a genuine progressive. Jon Walker and Jane Hamsher are fauxgressives. You can’t claim to be a progressive while simultaneously being against all progress.
Whether you like it or not 2.5 million more people insured is progress. Not being able to be charged overdraft fees for debit card purchases is progress. Forcing banks to keep a living will for orderly dissolution and making them keep enough money on hand to pay for it is progress. Having a consumer credit agency is progress. Not allowing credit cards to increase rates arbitrarily is progress. Ending DADT is progress. Stopping financial assistance for countries that engage in abuse towards gays and lesbians is progress. Expanding hate crimes to include gays is progress. Cutting prescription drug costs for seniors by 50% is progress. Extending federal benefits to same sex couples is progress. Taking out the middle man for student loans is progress. A new GI bill is progress. Not having to pay for preventive care is progress. Expanding medicaid is progress. Requiring health insurers to disclose their books AND making them pay 80% towards our care is progress. Providing equal pay for equal work is progress. Increasing funding for pell grants is progress. Increasing illegibility for S. Chip is progress. Making the auto industry competitive again is progress. Repealing restrictions on stem cell research is progress.
While you can, and undoubtedly will argue that none of these things quite measure up toe the FDL standards. However i defy you to name ONE president that does. There is not a single president in history that has gotten this much legislation done with this small a majority. In fact both LBJ and FDR had MUCH greater majorities and they caved all the time (and before you inevitably mention Bush, 1. he failed at Social Security reform and 2. Tax cuts are NOT the same type of long lasting legislation as evidenced by the fact that they have to go up for a re-vote every 2 years.)
Progressives achieve the possible and then push for more. That’s what Obama does. Having a tantrum because you didn’t get everything you want right away is not being a progressive- it’s being bratty.
Accepting crumbs and insults like you say we should isn’t helping either. Both extremes are counterproductive.
The whole post was, like this one, nothing but bullshit. No, Clinton did NOT have a similar majority. He NEVER had a filibuster proof majority, not that it matters since the Democrats can end the filibuster any time they want to, but Clinton NEVER, at any time, had as many Democratic legislators in the House and Senate as Obama did.
As for Carter, you can take a point for that if you want to, but I don’t concede it without arguing that that one was different because of so many southern Democrats in the Senate. The “southern transformation” hadn’t yet quite finished, especially in the Senate (where terms are 3 times as long as in the House) from the Civil Rights ere just the decade before. Many, many, many southern Democrats actually flipped to their natural brethren the Republicans. Others never officially flipped, but almost always voted with their bigotted friends.
And whether you like it or not, 2.5 million more people insured is NOT progress toward HEALTH CARE. It’s progress toward health insurance profits, but not toward HEALTH CARE. WOuld you like the stats on the number of medically related bankruptcies and what percentage of them HAD insurance??? Or would you rather ignore that little reality??? And would you rather ignore the reality that having the government mandate citizens purchase goods and services from private, for profit entities, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY, sets a precedent that is only a matter of when, and not if, it will be abused??
And how about detaining American citizens without charges, right to a lawyer, or ever being charged with a crime forever and forever??? And how about assassinating American citizens with no due process whatsoever??? And how about arguing before the SCOTUS, and WINNING the argument, that he, Obama, can sign a piece of paper declaring any person in the world ANYWHERE an enemy combatant and they are no longer a person, and since they are no longer a person, the Constitution doesn’t apply because it mentions persons??? You proud of that Obama??
You’re right in that he’s accomplished a lot. Absolutely. He has entrenched the for profit health insurance industry; he has entrenched the laws so that torture, rendition, unlimited detention, and actually killing American citizens without due process are all now considered normal; he has single handedly declared war on a soveriegn nation (internation laws and standards recognize actuall attacks as a declaration of war) without that little Constitutional requirement of Congress doing it; and he has forever ruined the Democratic brand that was, finally, on the upturn and ready to be a majority party for a generation. Or would rather ignore the reality of the 2010 elections and polls showing BOTH parties now more unpopular than ever???
Do you lurve that Obama??? Because all of THAT is OBAMA. Come on, get in here and defend THAT shit!!! WHere’s your home team pride at or are you going to wimp out and come back with something like “Oh I don’t like everything Obama does yadda yadda yadda yadda.”
Here’s a sincere question for you. What good is all the most progressive legislation in the history of the world, say single payer or socialized medicine, real working wages, etc, if any man, woman, or child can be disappeared and toruture, or even killed, at any time for any reason with NO LEGAL RECOURSE??????
Both of those posts were nothing but Obama rah rah rah BULLSHIT. Not rooted in any kind of reality at all, only out of a blind loyalty to a brand. So wear that brand proudly. You own it. You defend the health care law??? Good, you own it. You own the consequences of it. They’re yours. Be proud.
By the way, one consequence of it was the 2010 elections. Wear that shit proud.
I love the fact that you’re willing to give Carter a pass for his blue dogs but not Obama. Why the double standard?
Secondly, Obama NEVER had a filibuster proof majority never, not at any single time. The best he EVER had was 60 members of the Democratic Caucus, with two of them being independents. One of those independents was Lieberman who was far more interested in sticking it to liberals than he was in governing.
Here’s the actual number:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0774721.html
They both started out with 57 Democrats. While it’s true that Specter did eventually convert and Franken did eventually get elected it’s also true that Kennedy and Byrd were dying for most of the first session. And of course Kennedy was eventually replaced by Scott Brown. So this notion that Obama had these unprecedented majorities to slap around the GOP with is just false. It’s also a false comparison to equate Mitch McConnel with Bob Dole. Though i disagreed with Bob Dole politically, he was a sane public servant that could at least be worked with. Mitch McConnel is not.
Either way the fact that you’re using Lieberman as part of his “filibuster proof majority” proves just how vacuous and shallow your arguments are.
Furthermore the Democrats with a majority could always “end the filibuster any time they want to”. Johnson and Kennedy could of done so when they were misusing the filibuster to stop civil rights, Carter could of done so when he was trying to pass energy reform, Clinton could of done so before he failed to get his health care law passed. Yet ONLY Obama is giving shit for not being able to do it.
The fact is that none of these Presidents COULD of ended the filibuster even if they wanted to. You need 50 votes to use the nuclear option and we never had them. The fact is that Baucus, Lincoln, Landrieu, Lieberman and the other blue dogs liked the filibuster because it gave them power. Then there’s other Senators like Byrd and even Kennedy (assuming that you could get them off their death beds to vote) who liked the filibuster simply because they like the parliamentary rules and didn’t want to change them. So the notion that they could end it “any time they want to” like the rest of your post, is bullshit.
I reject entirely the premise that the only good bill is one that destroys private health insurance. I also reject entirely the premise that this bill does not address the problems that you addressed in your post. This bill offers subsidies for people up to 400% of poverty and a vast increase in medicaid this bill also makes it mandatory that insurers spend at least 80% of every dollar they take in. It also mandates that they publish their balance sheet and account for what dollars go where. Finally it calls for maximum out of pocket expenses depending on your income. So you’re just wrong.
The also reject the certainty that there will be abuse. There’s been a long history in this country of government regulating the private sector without major abuse, look at your electric bill. Wonder why it’s not 500 dollars a month? Government regulations. Furthermore, government run does not necessarily free us from abuse and corruption. You honestly think there’s no history of abuse in medicare medicaid or the VA? These are all good systems, even great systems, however they also require oversight, just like the private sector. This bill gives us the tools we need to provide that oversight.
It’s hard to go into the specifics of the rest of your post because it consisted of a Hannityesque type laundry list of grievances and non sequiturs. I’m sure you got most of it from sources like Greenwald and other nutjobs who know nothing about the constitution or the law but do know how to stir up people into a full-on frenzy of stupid.
As far as what i do recognize and can respond to:
1. Referring to Anwar Al Awlaki as “An American Citizen” and leaving it there is as dishonest as the NRAs only quoting half the 2nd Amendment. It’s as dishonest as referring to Osama Bin Laden as a “husband and father of five.” Anwar al Awlaki was a top member of Al Queda, and organization that the U.S. Congress Declared hostilities against by an overwhelming margin on September 14th 2011. We had intelligence to believe that Anwar al Awlaki was planning terrorists attacks from Yemen. Anwar Al Awlaki was hiding out in Yemen because he knew that country lacked the legal infrastructure to arrest and extradite him. He knew full well that he was on the terrorist watch list, he knew what that meant and he knew how to surrender himself.
Due process does not necessarily mean that everyone has a right to a fair trial and an organized arrest no matter what the circumstances. If someone is taking hostages and has a gun to peoples heads the swat team does not have to read the fucker his Miranda rights before putting a bullet in his or her head. Likewise if someone is part of an organization that we’ve declared hostilities against, is planning attacks on our soil in an area where there is no infrastructure to arrest him and refuses to surrender himself to authorities then we have the right to bomb that fucker without reading him his Miranda rights and without a trial (though he did actually get a trial in-absentia in a Yemen court). He doesn’t get the same due process because HE-not President Obama- placed himself beyond that due process.
Obama did not declare war on these countries because we’re not at war with them. We’re at war with Al Queda. Al Queda inserts itself into countries that lack the legal infrastructure to arrest them. Both international law and common sense recognizes that if there is a hostile group hiding out in a country and the government is unwilling and unable to act, the country under threat has every right to act. Not only is this recognized law, this was also discussed AT LENGTH during several debates. Debates which Barack Obama won. If you want to disagree with the policy or say it’s being done too much or to indiscriminately, that’s fine. Hell, i might even agree with you in some instances. But to describe what Obama is doing as somehow unprecedented lawlessness is hyperbole.
Yes, as a matter of fact i do love President Barack Obama. I think he’s been a wonderful President and i think history will back me up on this. My life has been changed dramatically for the better because of Barack Obama and i assure you i am FAR from the 1%. I was able to go and get a paralegal degree while collecting unemployment thanks to Barack Obama. It worked to, i just finished my degree and got offered a job last week! Thanks to Barack Obama and the 111th Congress, i was saved on two occasions from having to pay enormous fees for using my debit card. Thanks to President Obama i will soon have health care despite having Chron’s and Rheumatoid arthritis thanks to the high risk pool. And thanks to President Obama a private insurance company that you have so derided will have to pay ALL of my preventive care. No co-pays no deductibles, i’ll get it for free. This was a procedure i would not get for YEARS when i had insurance before because it used to cost $1,500.
In answering your sincere question i’ll say that i reject the notion that Obama is doing anything of the sort. If you’re referring to the provision of the NDAA then i’ll say that 1. it was the Republicans that put that provision in there and 2. President Obama himself has rejected that provision in a signing statement. While i wish those provisions weren’t in there at all, i don’t think it was worth vetoing and risking 10s of thousands of jobs in THIS economy.
As far as “blind loyalty to a brand” goes you’re showing it far more than me. Only the “brand” in your case is pessimism. It’s not true that simply because you’re critical you’re more objective. You’re just critical because you love disdainful superiority.
Now i have a sincere question: Why did you vote for him at all? I was a Hillary supporter in the primaries simply because i felt then- and feel now- that a privately based health care system could not work without a mandate. Hillary Clinton agreed with me so I supported her. Shen Obama changed his mind about that, i didn’t hold a grudge, i was happy he came around.
But he did NOT campaign on getting rid of private sector insurance. As a matter of fact, the bill he campaigned on- even with the public option- was weaker than the bill we eventually got! The bill he campaigned on had not free preventive care, had not vast expansion of community clinics, had no 80% loss ratio. I’m pretty sure it didn’t even have a vast expansion of medicaid. It did have a very weak public option- but that the only substantial part of the bill we didn’t get and we got so much more besides that. So sine we basically got MORE than he- and you- campaigned on why are you so unhappy?
He also made it clear that he was going to bomb the shit out of Al Queda operatives WHEREVER they were found. That was a major part of several debates with both Hillary AND McCaine. There’s no way you could of missed it. There’s no rationale way you can say Obama lied to you or that he suddenly turned into a centrist, so why the drastic turn on him?
I have no problem “owning” the accomplishments of this administration. I will wear it proud, thank you very much.
Now if only FDLers will own the fact that they bear more than a little responsibility for 2010. They lied profusely about the bill, his accomplishment and held him to a standard NO president has ever been held to. And they did it to an audience that gave them FAR to much credibility because they live under the false notion that a “progressive” critical of a Democrat must be more insightful than one cheering a Democrat.
Oh bullshit.
It is not “way too early” to determine that all the horrible things that were inevitably going to happen immediately didn’t happen at all.
And many of the longer term predictions are based entirely in the idea that things would start out bad and just get worse – do you really think that people are going to become MORE intolerant of professional and competent openly gay fellow servicemembers over time than they are now? And if they do, how is that the fault of the gay people rather than the bigots?
If there was a sudden rise today in white-on-black violence in the military, would you blame the bigots or blame desegregation?
More complete bullshit. Not rooted in any reality whatsoever.
If you can’t see that the Democratic Party has moved waaaaaaaaaaayyyy right, then you’re not looking. And if you’re not looking, the only reason that could explain that is you’re just a blindly loyal Democrat.
In the 1960′s, FIFTY YEARS AGO, a Democratic Party passed single payer health care. Today all they can pass is a Republican, Heritage Foundation wet dream. All the Democrats I know and knew are NOT supportive of Republican policies, if they were they would’ve been Republicans.
The fact remains, and it is a FACT. Obama, and the Democrats ran on a progressive platform. They have governed in a conservative manner. That’s why 2010 happened, and that’s why 2012 is going to be a tough re-election.
Good luck next November. Good luck with getting all those center right independants to vote for him next year. After all, that’s who they’ve governed toward getting. They admit it all the time. I’m not center right, I’m left, therefore they don’t want my vote and won’t get it. And guess what??? There are millions like me. They CHOSE to govern in a conservative manner so they deserve the consequences. Anyone that is left of center would be foolish to vote for Obama and the Democrats next year when they don’t and haven’t governed in the way they claim to like.
It’s pretty foolish for ANYONE to vote for someone that doesn’t represent their values and policies. And your own description of what civil rights means to you just shows how far right the Democrats have gone. You call yourself a Democrat, and you support shit that in no way, no fashion, even a Republican 30 years ago would’ve supported, let alone real Democrats.
Congratulations, you’ve won. Your ilk has taken over the Democratic Party. Good luck with that. And good luck with winning elections without the left anymore. I don’t support any of that shit you just described, I never will, and therefore I cannot vote Democratic anymore. Either you’re a Republican deep down or you’re just blindly loyal in that you support Democrats no matter how far right they go, even when they act exactly like Republicans.
Whichever is the case doesn’t matter to me because you and the Democrats have lost this life long Democrat from a union family most likely forever. I won’t support you or that bullshit you’ve spewed in this thread. And neither will lots of folks just like me. Enjoy your new Democratic Party, you own that too. And BTW, you do own the health care bill even if you weren’t willing too. And five years from now 45,000 folks a year will still be dying due to lack of health care. Wear it proud.
And FDL had nothing to do with 2010. We didn’t pass that health care bill. The Democrats did. The Democratic Party is what was responsible for 2010 and you’re a Democrat so you my friend, not us, own 2010.
Look at any poll you want to and the health care bill is immensely unpopular. If you think FDL has that much power, I want some of whatever you’re smoking.
You can whine till the sun comes up, doesn’t change the fact that all we did was say exactly what Obama does. We’re the messenger, we don’t make the message. Obama and the Democrats do. It’s just exactly like whining at the kid that points out the emporer has no clothes.
Have a great holiday, stay safe, and hope to see you here next November. Good luck.
My apologies to readers. I called the post bullshit without explaining why. My bad.
I never said anything about giving Carter a free pass. I was talking about the legislative majorities, not the Presidency. And IMO Carter’s huge majorities were overblown much more than Obama’s because it was just one decade removed from the civil rights era. By now, all those “Democrats” that are really Republicans should’ve made the switch. By now, if you call yourself a Democrat, you should be one.
Total bullshit. I’m not the one that was labelling those Senators, THEY DID. And they described themselves as Democrats and there were 60 of them. The fact that some of them didn’t act like Democrats even though they claimed to be is EXACTLY MY POINT.
Dude, it’s not ME that counted Lieberman, it was the Democrats. They counted Lieberman as among their own as proven by giving him a committee chairmanship. More trying to use wording to baffle with bullshit instead of sticking to the facts. FACT: The Democrats had 60 people in the Senate claiming to be Democrats. That’s it. Period.
LOL!!! What reality are you living in to compare filibusters in the last Congress to filibusters 50 years ago??? No other President before Obama had the need to change it because it wasn’t used like it is now. Yet Obama and the Democrats CHOSE not to change it. It was a choice, and it’s completely fair to hold them accountable for their choices.
Wow, so now the Democrats had 60 people in the Senate claiming to be Democrats but didn’t even have 50 votes??? FWIW, I comletely agree with you. That’s the point. They claim to be Democrats but don’t act them. From Obama to Reid to Pelosi to most all of them, when it’s time to talk they talk like Democrats but when it’s to vote they don’t vote like Democrats. Again, those are choices for which it is completely fair to hold them accountable. As leader of the party, Obama could’ve made those not going along with Democratic legislation suffer consequences. From withholding important re-election money to taking away Chairmanships and seats on certain committees the leader of the Party has tools to ensure the Party follows the Party line. And Obama and Reid CHOSE not to use those tools. It is, again, entirely fair to hold them accountable for that choice. Had Lieberman voted against every Democratic bill and the Democrats removed his ass from committee chairmanship, then yeah, I would take the heat off Obama and Reid. They CHOSE not too. That’s why they EARNED the heat.
Thank you. That right there shows what supposed Democrats feel today. Private insurance companies are incentivised to deny care. It’s the biggest tool they have to increase profits, which is what private companies are supposed to do. And having as an incentive denying health care is a completely unacceptable way to run health care.
Reject reality all you want to, that’s fine by me. If you think this bill mandates they spend 80% on health care, you’re living in a different reality. They inserted so many loopholes in their that companies are finding almost everything they expense can be labelled as health care spending. Which of course was the point for the loopholes. And all the loopholes, including letting them keep their anti-trust exemption AT THE SAME TIME we’re mandated to be their customers was 100% the result of DEMOCRATS. Not a single Republican voted for this POS. And it is just plain insane to mandate customers to an industry that has an anti-trust exemption.
What makes this entire word party bullshit is that I didn’t even mention abuse and whether government can effectively regulate private industry. FWIW, the facts are clear. The government CAN regulate private industry, but when captured they can’t. And right now, almost every regulatory body in the country has been captured. But yeah, I do believe it’s possible for government to regulate effectively. If I didn’t believe that, I would be a Republican. But as stated, I never made those claims anyway. Just more bullshit.
See how the bullshit flows??? I. NEVER. ONCE. mentioned Anwar al Awlaki. Not. Once. Anwar al Awlaki is completely irrelevant to anything stated above. Completely. If you want to claim that since he’s the one we know of as being assassinated, fine. But the President, OBAMA HIMSELF, claims the right to assassinate ANY American. Again, not me, that’s Obama. And you support that. Wear that proud too.
Total and complete bullshit. Who the fuck said anything about hostage situations??? I didn’t, and neither did Obama. The bill he signed and supported gives the military the right to detain ANY American, not just hostage takers. And no matter how you spin it, when habeas corpus is gone, there is no due process. And that’s what they’ve done. And you support that too. Wow. See what I mean by how far the “Democrats” have gone??? Supporting the end of habeas corpus.
And more changing the subject with piles of bullshit. It is recognized internationlly that when the forces of one country attack another, that country has declared war. Ergo, Obama declared war on Libya. Some would take it further and say Pakistan and Yemen too. I won’t go that far because those were covert acts, not an act of war. But attacking Libya was out in the open, and with known forces from the US. And it is recognized as declaring war internationally.
Nuff said right there.
LOL, blaming the Republicans for that provision???? It passed a DEMOCRATIC Senate. And Obama signed it. The only leg of the three branches of government that passes laws that the Republicans control is the House. And if you think Obama rejected that in a signing statement, I’ve got some ocean side property in Kansas you might be interested in. And not for nothing, how many times did you lash out at Bush for HIS signing statements??? Ok for Obama, not for Bush I’d bet.
All just more bullshit. I’m tired of explaining every turd. Most readers reading this know bullshit when they read it.
Anyway, every policy you’ve described above is in no way whatsoever progressive. You’ve admitted you’re not progressive. So why bother with me??? I AM progressive, liberal even. We’re on different political planets and you disagree with me and I disagree with you.
It’s not worth any more of my time because I will never support the policies that you so gladly wear proudly. Never will I support assassinating civilians without due process. Never will I support ending habeas corpus, one of the most basic of all human rights as recognized internationally. Never will I support a President, ANY PRESIDENT, having the authority to unilaterally declare war on a soveriegn nation. Never will I support any President having the power to disappear anyone, anywhere, just by asserting they’re a terrorist or support terrorism. Asserting it but never having to prove it. That’s old Soviet Union shit. That’s the shit of kings. And never will I support a health care system where the incentive is to DENY care and let patients die or suffer.
And you gladly support all of that. And you’re a Democrat. This is EXACTLY what we here at FDL have been pointing out. Today’s Democrats are more like Republicans 30 years ago then Democrats. You’ve done nothing in this thread but make the point for us. Thank you.
And as I said I’m tired of responding to every turd, so I’m done.
Have a good and safe holiday.