I am so sick and tired of the politics.Being misled.  Being thrown under the bus.  Being used as a wedge issue for cheap political points.  Of hearing the same excuses (you need to educate us) over and over.  They’ve been educated.  They’re cowards and bigots who don’t give a damn about helping their fellow man.  And this new Congress is going to be worse.
Sign me totally frustrated.

Great essay, AutumnThis is part of the reason I called Eleveld’s essay “bullshit.”

a painful and fairly complete summary…My cynical expectation is that trans inclusion will remain “just too much” for the democratic leadership for as long as Rep. Frank is there to talk about penises in showers — regardless of what HRC does or doesn’t do.  We’ll either see a version which has it stripped out, at some point when they think the furor is sufficiently distant, or won’t see it at all.
Honestly?  Truly?  This is a government that spends more money on war than the rest of the world combined, and has more prisoners than any other nation.  I’d like employment protection, sure.  But at this point it would feel like tiny sandbox where the devil plays fair.  I do realize that your take is likely quite different and more rooted in a sense of citizenship — and nobody who has seen your picture by the white house fence can doubt the integrity of that.  But for me, out here on the lefty edge, I wonder if we’re creating a society so unequal and so managed by vengance and fear that our cause — while important — is just another wave on the shore.

Not an elephantUnfortunately you have chosen the icon of the Republican party and that taints the discussion. There are, in fact, Republicans who support an inclusive ENDA as your own vote tallies testify.
In my opinion we would be well served to recognize the mythical Pink Gorilla. Mythical just like Santa Claus yet Santa is very real around December when most retailers either make or break their annual sales quota’s. So too the Pink Gorilla who appears in people’s minds when the “bathroom issue” surfaces.
Let me suggest that we need to either cage the Pink Gorilla or go for a non-inclusive ENDA. Your choice. How do you cage him? With the truth. The truth is any transgender person idiotic enough to display a penis in a communal restroom or shower should be charged with inciting a riot or at least disturbing the peace. We need to convince the “opposition” that there is no real threat here to acceptable public standards of decent behavior. To be blunt I don’t know a single pre-op MTF who would even think of openly displaying a penis while in a ladies room. If you can find one please do us all a favor and knock some sense into that warped individual. Tell them if they need to show their penis please do it outside on the street preferably to a police officer (of either sex).

Well, maybe Jared Polis isn’t a friendbut at least he seems to be honest.

Rep. Polis told the protesters if they wanted ENDA marked up then it would be without gender identity protections — and then asked if that’s what the GetEQUAL activists wanted.

Certainly moreso than Barney Frank.
Still reading through this…

And another thing ….Tell Barney that the only penises on display in restrooms are the gay men in showers and men’s rooms. I’ll bet Barney that along every wall of public urinals during peak traffic periods you will find a gay man checking out his communal neighbor’s equipment. Prove it isn’t so Barney.

Not just gay men, Deenaand this homophobia that’s cropping up on these threads is starting to get ridiculous.
I’ve seen a lot a straight men checking out schlongs in locker rooms and bathrooms. It’s a man’s thing.

Just another example of why activism is so liberating and politics such bullshitOverand over and over again the LGBT community is lectured to by the status quo and its enablers to “be realistic.” That means “sit down and shut up.” This has happened with gay and lesbian issues as well as those that involve the trans community going way way back.
It’s perfectly obvious that the HRC doesn’t represent ANY of us, and that Barney Frank is a politician first and gay man. . .let’s say third.
We’re jsut going to have to keep fighting on as many fronts as we possibly can. But the thing to remember is that the trans community isn’t going to “go away” when it comes to ENDA and the LGB’s know it. Our enemies will use trans as a fear cudgel, and the sooner the rest of LGB’s face this fact the better.
Trans is not an optional extra. It has become the beating heart of freedom.

Heterosexual man to Barney in the men’s roomwould probably say “you can look but don’t touch”.
Kevin don’t you realize Barney uses the “gender identity” issue to focus people away from homophobia onto the Pink Gorilla? He is very adept at deflecting and also at tactics that shine the light of reality on homophobia. Remember what he said to the reporter about gays in the showers? He said they are already there. Well the same holds true for MTF’s and cross dressers in ladies rooms.
Don’t get your panties in a twist about homophobia Kevin. It is real and alive in our society as my many gay friends will gladly attest. The thing is that homophobia has for the most part been neutered in polite society and even the halls of Congress. We need to do the same with the Pink Gorilla.  

Deena, don’t preach or lecture, pleaseFar too much of society is still quite impolite. Hell, for that matter, homophobia is alive and kicking in the gay community.

Oh Kevin…I’m sorry if you felt like I was preaching. There is just no way of knowing how anyone will interpret text.
Society will always be impolite (as you undoubtedly know). I am of the opinion that those who would speak for us all need to learn a bit from Mark Twain. Hold up reality and get people to laugh at it instead of bemoan its sorry state. That is a much more effective way to get people to go beyond their phobias and “do the right thing”. In essence get them to look at their fears and say “that’s so silly”.
And that is why I am so fond of the Pink Gorilla.

But you’re browbeating the damn thingand you’re preaching to the choir as well.

See, here it pops up again.Deena and Kevinchi, y’all are showing just how tough it is of even discussing transgender issues relating to LGBT community and ENDA.
Y’all are basically agreeing, but it’s still difficult not to fall into a pitfall when discussing transgender people’s anger and LGBT leadership’s problematic language and behavior regarding ENDA — you can see anger ready to peep out because of how sensitive this discussion can be.

Good point AutumnLet me say (just so you might understand) that I haven’t been angry in decades. Its just not in my character but I do enjoy a lively discussion.
In my opinion ENDA shouldn’t be tough to discuss. The amazing thing is that even an inclusive ENDA still leaves many groups “under the bus”. Wouldn’t it be simpler to pass a bill that says the only basis that is legitimate for a business to discriminate on in hiring or firing human employees is job capabilities and performance? That would cover everyone human (it would still not cover the Pink Gorilla or the Elephant with issues).

The HRC is still there……and has a lot of clout tied into how large an annual budget the organization has (in the neighborhood of 40 million dollars). They’re not going to go away soon, and they are going to be in the beltway back rooms discussing ENDA policy with politicians and their staffs for many years to come.
They can’t be ignored, as much as many would like to ignore the organization.

We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope.
~Martin Luther King Jr.

Knowing what we know about history regarding ENDA and  transgender people, how are we going to move forward as a community to get ENDA passed into law? Blaming others for past behavior doesn’t move us forward; addressing the history in the context of moving forward will actually help to move us forward.
I have infinite hope we can pass a fully inclusive ENDA — we can find a way.

The thing with the HRC is that it’s a class issueThe HRC “represents” only a small sliver of well-to-do gays and lesbians. They have no interest in anyone else. But seeing that fact is hard as we’ve been propagandized into believing that we live in a “classless society.” Nothing could be further than the truth.  

What are YOU doing?!
You know what, Autumn? I’m not trans, but I would benefit from a gender identity-inclusive ENDA. It isn’t just trans people that need that provision. It’s anyone who presents gender markers that don’t match up with societal expectations.
I live in the south, and the discrimination I face is almost always due to presenting butch, not due to being a lesbian. I’ve known plenty of gay men who have been discriminated against, not for loving men, but for being effeminate.
Maybe if you stop presenting every political issue (especially ENDA) as some kind of us vs. them bullshit scenario, and you started talking about the fact that gender identity-inclusive ENDA helps ALL of us, you’d get some more support from the community at large.
I’m not pretending for a second that the LGB community has done its part for the T. There have been promises broken, insulting language used, and just plain betrayal.
But to insinuate that Kerry Eleveld and Barney Frank are somehow throwing trans people under the bus is insane. Kerry is talking about the need for honest discussion, which means we talk within the community openly and honestly about what we can do to be better on trans issues. Many lawmakers, and indeed many gay decision makers are uncomfortable talking about trans issues. That’s a fact. Kerry is saying we should interrogate that, see what’s causing that discomfort, and root it out so that we can have honest discussions about trans issues. No where in her piece did she even vaguely insinuate that we should talk about removing the gender identity protections.  
Barney Frank is certainly not the community’s best friend, but he was articulating the views of ENDA’s opponents in Congress, not his own.
You seem to have missed the key part of Kerry’s quote: HONESTY. So instead of distorting our allies’ words and refusing to knock that chip off your shoulder, how about we stop the circular firing squad and try to work together as a community to get ALL of our members protected.
One more thing, if the trans community is this upset about the LGBT community’s work, perhaps trans folks should branch off and start their own organizations, instead of just bitching from the sidelines. I’m all about an inclusive community, but it seems all corners of the queer internet are always buzzing with gay vs. trans. Jesus, guys, we’re all in this together. Chill out or go do your own thing, Autumn.  

Start by being worthy of trust.Every trans person who has been in the community for even a SHORT time knows – rightly or wrongly – that when discussions are being mooted about the place of transgender issues in the greater LGBT community, what that means is that cissexual gays and lesbians want to kick out trans people, who scare them. What the cissexual gay and lesbian community needs to do is to demonstrate in a sustained way that this is not so.
Mooting gender identity non-discrimination bills that are transparently a cover effort to get marriage equality through a legislative body is NOT the way to do this.
Nor is telling transgender people that their apprehension is unwarranted while putting the vast majority of the onus on the oppressed minority (yes, trans is an oppressed minority within LGBT).

Wow !When I read, “We need to have an honest conversation about our inability to discuss ENDA and transgender issues…” I certainly didn’t read it to mean we need to discuss taking gender identity out of ENDA… well, not until you interpreted it that way.  
That is not an option.  How can we say we are human rights activists if we leave humans behind – whether they fall within our alphabet community or not?

AbsolutelyI completely agree with everything you’ve said. trans is absolutely an oppressed minority within LGBT.
The problem is, the LGBT community is no longer just a few wealthy groups. The LGBT community is not a homogeneous block of trans-ignorers.
If the “cissexual gay and lesbian community” is HRC and the Task Force, then sure, let’s scream and yell all day long.
But HRC and the Task Force are not the community. When folks repeatedly pass the sins of HRC onto the greater LGBT community, it serves to stoke up tensions and misunderstandings between different corners of the community.
One thing we could look to is the inclusion of women in the gay movement. Women (cis and trans) are still largely ignored in discussions of LGBT issue, but you don’t get anywhere from sitting out of the game and demanding it be played only on your terms. I think it is difficult to have honest discussions about misogyny within the LGBT community, but that doesn’t mean I think we should talk about ignoring women’s issues.
This community has a problem discussing trans issues, and we all have to come to the table if we are going to overcome this division.

I wrote…

Transgender community members have many, many lesbian and gay intra-community allies, and I actually knew beforehand that Kerry Eleveld was one of them. But unfortunately, sometimes anger at broader LGBT community is that reflexive response because of the behavior of players like Solmonese, Aravosis, and Frank — and more sad still, that reflexive anger directed at many LGB people in community is often justified.

Kerry isn’t my enemy, and I identified her as being my ally. I identified my anger was my problem — I stated the history is a result of my filtering based on the history. I initially couldn’t get past her first comment because of my anger — again, my filtering, my problem.
EliDeep, I didn’t distort people’s words, I quoted them verbatim, and in context, and linked back to where I found the quotes. There is a reason why transgender community members are angry, and I gave a history lesson as to why.
And as I said in my piece above, LGBT community is going to have to address its history on transgender people and ENDA if they want to have an honest conversation on moving ENDA forward, and transgender people are going to have to address their anger.
I’m addressing my anger in this piece — I’ve been addressing it behind the scenes with my LGBT friends for days before posting this piece. I plan a follow up piece where I talk about other issues Kerry brought up, as well as about the other 800-pound elephant in the room: public restrooms.
See, your anger in response to my piece is yet another reason why holding this ENDA argument is going to be difficult — you responded to what I said, and what you thought I said, with anger.
We can’t have an honest conversation if everyone in the room is angry and defensive — which is why I pointed out why I was so angry when I read those first paragraphs by Kerry —  not finishing her article at first to see what she actually had to say on the subject.
Basically, I pointed out why I was angry and couldn’t initially finish Kerry’s piece, and I’m saying I’m not alone in that anger. History has to be addressed for the community anger to be addressed, and that anger is going to have to be addressed if we want to have an honest conversation on ENDA, and move forward on ENDA.

We can’t.But that doesn’t mean it hasn’t been tried with ENDA, and tried relatively recently.

Kick the door down How many transgender Americans are on the HRC, NGLTF or GetEqual boards of director? How many are making these policy decisions by these gay.inc and not-yet-gay.inc organizations?
The mistake all gay, lesbian,bisexual and transgender Americans have been making all along is that we think we need permission, acceptance, agreement, approval, understanding, tolerance and respect to be considered human beings entitled to human rights and American citizens entitled to constitutional rights. Egyptians showed us how to have a revolution – you take what it yours & kick the tyrants out of office – you don’t ask politely for the tyrannical majority to give you what is yours.
In LGBT world the tyrannical majority is NOT transgender, but until transgender people take the power for themselves, they will continue believing the myth perpetuated by gay.inc that they are helpless victims of the meanie queers. You want inclusive ENDA passed, get on the boards of HRC & GetEqual (Jillian can’t do this alone) and CHANGE THE DAMN POLICIES. Stop asking the tyrants for a seat at the table, kick the damn door down and sit at the table.

Here’s soemthing I think should be of interest to all

The messaging on why I chose “elephant”……is the phrase “An elephant never forgets.” Transgender people haven’t forgotten, and that’s what I was trying to highlight.

not angry or defensiveI’m not angry, nor am I defensive. I’m tired of being terrified to use public restrooms, and I want ENDA passed. I think the best way to succeed on this front is to put the anger aside and come together.
Your posts so often come across as attacks on the LGB community, and it’s difficult to have an open discussion about how to move forward when it seems like you think every well-intentioned person that isn’t fully educated on trans issues is some kind of bigot.
And yes, you did use direct quotes, but the meaning was still distorted. Peter LaBarbara uses real pictures from gay events, but he distorts their context.
I’m certainly not a member of the Barney Frank fan club, but come on! Barney Frank was not insulting trans folks when talking about the bathrooms. He was talking about what the opposition focuses on. It is disingenuous to present his words any other way.
Your anger is understandable and justified, but is it productive to express publicly? I was so relieved to see Kerry’s piece on ENDA, because it’s the first substantial talk about ENDA that I’ve heard in years. It’s very frustrating to see the conversation finally opened up only to be greeted with reactionary anger and grudges.
I identify as genderqueer, and am the victim of anti-trans attitudes and prejudice every day. Each time I try to speak about the fact that maybe the trans community has SOME responsibility for its inclusion, I am spoken to as if I am not part of the trans community and do not understand trans issues. I identify with the LGB and T parts of the community, and I just wish I could feel like those parts weren’t always in a blame war against each other.  

WTF?Why are there always comments like this on trans threads? I’m a gay trans man, and I’m sickened by the homophobia the trans community often tolerates even as we call out transphobia in the gay community.
I feel unwelcome in trans spaces because of this.

“this homophobia that’s cropping up on these threads is starting to get ridiculous. “It ain’t homophobia when pointing out that homosexuals defend it.

I’ll refer you back to David Shaw:

On November 24, 1998, Shaw attended an education conference at the Hyatt Hotel in downtown Minneapolis.  Shaw’s employer had excused him from his teaching duties to attend the conference.  That afternoon, Shaw went to use the public restroom.  According to Shaw’s testimony at the contested case hearing, he entered the middle stall of the restroom because the other two stalls were occupied.  He noticed that the man to his right was tapping his foot.  He then noticed that the man to his left was also tapping his foot.  Shaw recognized the foot-tapping as a signal that gay men use to meet each other.  He testified that the men on either side of him tapped again and that he tapped back.
Shaw looked under the partitions, made eye contact with both men, and the man on his left wiggled his finger at him underneath the stall and whispered, “Show it, show it, show it.”  Shaw then knelt on the floor and exposed his erect penis underneath the partition so the man in the other stall could see it and that after he got up, he asked the man, “Well, what do you think?” and the other man replied, “It’s nice.”
Officer Martin Werner testified that the Hyatt hired him during his off-duty hours to work undercover because of complaints of inappropriate sexual behavior in the men’s restrooms.  According to Werner’s testimony, he was in the bathroom stall when Shaw entered the stall next to him.  Shaw tapped his foot first, and Werner responded because he believed Shaw’s tapping indicated that Shaw wanted to engage in sexual activity.  Shaw then stuck his head underneath the partition and made eye contact with Werner.  After that, Shaw exposed his erect penis underneath the partition.
After the men exited their respective stalls, the man Shaw had exposed himself to identified himself as Officer Werner.  Werner issued Shaw a citation for indecent exposure, a misdemeanor.  Pursuant to Minn. R. Crim. P. 27.05, Shaw entered into an agreement to suspend prosecution, and after complying with the terms of the agreement, the charge was eventually dismissed.
In spring 2000, the Minnesota Board of Teaching’s disciplinary committee recommended suspension of Shaw’s teaching licenses because he engaged in immoral conduct.
…
Shaw queries, “[o]n a broader level one must question why it would be harmful for a male child to witness a man with an erection in the men’s bathroom.” Shaw reasons that when “a child enters a public restroom it is certainly possible that [he] could view a [man's] penis either erect or flaccid.” Shaw argues that there might not be any harm for a child to see a man’s erect penis while standing next to him at an urinal, because it might help the child to understand that an erect penis is part of a man’s biological process.? But this hypothetical situation is very different from the facts of the instant case.Here, Shaw acknowledges that he exposed his erect penis to try to meet another man. He was not standing at an urinal performing a bodily function. Instead, he intentionally exposed himself underneath the partition of a public restroom stall because he thought “that was probably going to be the basis as to whether or not [the man in the other stall wanted] to meet [him].” Unlike his hypothetical, Shaw was not performing a function one normally witnesses in a public restroom.

And that happened in a state that has – and had at the time – a trans-inclusive civil rights law, one that an opportunistic christianist who voted for it is campaigning against in an effort to ride onward to the White House on the shoulders of christianist zombies soldiers.
I again ask: How is it that gay men have been able to shift the negative cultural gaze away from what many of them not only have been proven to do in public restrooms but, as Shaw believed (and, doubtlessly, others ) did and still, they have the right to do – away from that, and onto a wholly-imagined scenario of transsexual women doing far worse?

As noted in one of Shaw’s briefs:

The uncontroverted evidence of record from Dr. Olson, the only expert who testified, is that [Shaw]‘s actions were mistaken ance certainly not the best under the circumstances but they were not immoral. Olson testified that exposing a penis in a restroom is a recognized gay signal.

The brief went on:

Under facts most favorable to [the State Board of Teaching], [the penis exposure] occurred only after the stranger answered Shaw’s foot tapping with taps of his,own. Werner acknowledged that he was aware that foot tapping means that the person wanted to meet or have sex with the other. Thus, Werner told Shaw that he was interested and Shaw responded. It would be no more unusual in gay society for one man to see another’s penis than it would be in straight society for the different sexes to see one another undressed. We do not penalize consensual public nudity in straight society.

An additional passage in the brief:

Tillman, a Board of Teaching witness…agreed that gay people meet partners in different ways than do straight people, (T. 79-80). They could meet a partner in a bathroom or a shower room.

Remember, this was part of Shaw’s argument for why his being a proto-Larry Craig was okay.

“Why are there always comments like this on trans threads?”Juli Goins tries to properly use the women’s room at her place of employment?  She’s forced out of her job – in spite of a trans-inclusive civil rights law.
George Michael gets busted toilet trolling?  He’s rewarded by being one of poster children for the Millennium March on Washington.
So…
“Why are there always comments like this on trans threads?”
Because we know that there are plenty of gay men who still think toilet-trolling is acceptable – and we have justifiable suspicion that plenty (all?) of them, when ENDA 2007-ish imbroglios arise, line up behind John Aravosis, Jonathan Capehart, Chris Crain and St. Barney and claim that trans women are the problem.

I’m a gay trans man, and I’m sickened by the homophobia the trans community often tolerates even as we call out transphobia in the gay community.  

Conduct an honest survey on the topic.  Lets find out what disgusts America more: what many gay men  actually do in public men’s rooms or what trans women actually do in women’s rooms.
In the meantime, get thee to an Americabloggery.

And, you have a strong point.If you don’t feel that you’re able to have a discussion with trans people about their issues as an LGBT community member — if you think that if you have a discussion with trans people you’re going to your head ripped off, or being told you and/or your peers are all bigots — then it’s just as Pam stated in the article above:

I think what [Kerry Eleveld] is doing is stating the obvious – LGBs simply have done what often happens with race – if you can’t comfortably discuss it for fear of defensive backlash, the larger community will ignore, dodge, avoid or be silent.

That’s the place were starting from if we have an open discussion on ENDA and transgender people.
And also as I wrote above:

I’m sorry lesbian and gay people seem to all get painted with a broad brush. Transgender community members often feel so angry about those who in LGBT community who treat them badly that lashing out at almost all non-transgender people in LGBT community is an almost instinctive response. That almost instinctive anger is often directed at any in community who are even moderately insensitive — or those who unintentionally use inappropriate language to describe us. In other words, we don’t always hit the right target for our anger with our anger.
Transgender community members have many, many lesbian and gay intra-community allies, and I actually knew beforehand that Kerry Eleveld was one of them. But unfortunately, sometimes anger at broader LGBT community is that reflexive response because of the behavior of players like Solmonese, Aravosis, and Frank — and more sad still, that reflexive anger directed at many LGB people in community is often justified.
Just look at the comment threads for Joe.My.God, Towleroad, and GLAAD whenever any of these post on transgender people or on transgender issues. Transgender people know about those ongoing thread comments on those sites, and these feed destructive transgender narratives about “gay white cisgender men.”

That there are so many barriers to an honest discussion here is just so horrid, but sadly it is what it is.

but it’s being utilized in a homophobic wayI side with Barney Frank in none of his statements.
But it’s the broadbrushing that every single group does when it comes to this topic that makes a lot of people defensive.
And some trans folks have that down pat but then again so do some white gays, some black straight churchified people, etc, etc., ad nauseum

Who really funds these organizations??Major organizations like HRC, etc. are funded by gay philamprothists who will never have to work another day as a rank and file employee for the rest of their life.
But they would like to legally marry their partner.
nuff’ said.  

I understand – but let’s start the “conversation” anywayI can see where and how Autumn could read Kerry Eleveid’s

“we need to have an honest conversation about our inability to discuss ENDA and transgender issues”

as

“It’s time to open up the discussion again as to whether gender identity should be part of ENDA”

And, knowing the history, perhaps more of it than Autumn summarized, I do not blame Autumn for her reading of the question in that way.
It is precisely because there has been a history of trans people and our lives and rights being thrown under the bus or used as a scary wedge issue, that Autumn can come across with those thoughts.
It’s still happening, too.
In Maryland, a bill to add gender identity to that state’s human rights laws was drafted this year in such a way as to ignore the fact that the protected classes in existing human rights law in that state all have “public accommodations” coverage – and gender identity was intentionally left out, presumably to avoid the crazies and their opposition to a “bathroom bill.”
In New York, HRC has deployed regional organizers to work on marriage equality.  I met one of them – and she is a bright, energetic person who recently spent time working for Equality Maine – twice in the past week, in my own work on marriage equality (it’s our issue, too, after all).  But HRC is spending its money in New York ONLY on the marriage issue – nothing is going toward helping with the passage of GENDA, even though it would not take a great deal of effort to have the organizers working on GENDA as well.
I don’t know what is going on in other states, but these two situations make me realize that we are still being thrown under the bus.
Perhaps the reason that ENDA got abandoned in mid-stream last year, while the rush of advocacy turned toward DADT repeal, was because of how horrified the trans community was when the ideas were floated as to how Rep. Frank was going to cave in on the “bathroom issue” and write discrimination into the statute.  Rather than having the confrontations and the angst, the attention of many activists turned to something less controversial.
So now we return, with a less friendly Congress, to a potential “conversation.”
The way I see it, we need to make it absolutely clear, I have a laundry list for “the conversation” that goes somewhat like this:
1) That transgender people are biologically different and do not belong to their original sex assignment.
2) That regardless of surgical transition, since society expects two sexes, we should be recognized as belonging to the sex that matches our identities.
3) There should be a full civil rights bill, not just an employment bill.
4) There should in addition be a federal “Gender Recognition Act” modeled on the British law which would cover gender recognition for federal purposes, and some mechanism to “encourage” states to adopt a similar law (let’s face it, having my legal status as female for some purposes based on my perfectly legal and proper New York driver’s license, and as male for some purposes (including marriage in New York) based on my birth certificate, and not knowing how or whether any particular state I might be passing through might recognize either my gender or my marriage and for what purposes, I know that it would be nice to have some uniformity as long as it is respectful of my identity).
5) Medical care, private medical insurance, as well as government Medicaid, Medicare and other government medical programs, must be fair toward transgender people.  (Right now, my HRT is covered, but I have to pay out of pocket (or find a trans-friendly clinic) for prostate examinations – the current Column A, Column B way medical insurance handles sex-specific coverage totally ignores the existence of the trans population.  
6) A copy of the report on the plight of the trans community (Injustice at Every Turn) that was recently promulgated at Creating Change should be in the hands of every member of Congress and in those of state legislators.
7) Fix the military policy of discrimination against transgender people, and retroactively correct discharges and discharge codes.
8) I know I am leaving a lot out here – but this is a starter . . .
Oh yes, one more thing to add to the conversation – even though gender identity and sexual orientation are different things, they both relate to socio-cultural assumptions about sex and gender – American society expects people to be both cis and straight, just as it expects people to be white, Christian, of northern European descent, and who speak English.  The fact that many of our elected officials still believe in medical knowledge ca. 1965 is about as inexcusable as the fact that many of them don’t understand evolutionary theory and believe that humans co-existed with dinosaurs.  This is not  matter of a failure to educate, it it a matter of refusal to be educated.

I left out marriage equality . . .. . . but it really is our issue, too. It was an inadvertent slip.

@Deena, The problem is . . . . . . those nosy cis women who, confronted with a not-fully-passable trans woman in the restroom, will peek under the door to get a view of whether she has a penis.
In 1999, a trans person was arrested at a computer show in New Jersey based on a complaint made by a woman who did exactly that – peeked under the stall door to ascertain whether he trans woman had a penis.

Six of one half a dozen of the otherI’m rathter shocked by the declarations of outrage of “toilet trolling.” What world do you people live in? I’m turning 64 on Friday and Tea Rooms were a very important part of my (misspent?) youth — whether I got in on the action or not.
Cut the Mrs. Grover Cleveland crap and take a good long look at the real world, people!

And that’s why I brought up the broad brush in my piece.There’s a lot of broadbrushing going on, and I don’t believe it’s helpful.
The anger and defensiveness that come up in LGBT community whenever transgender people and issues are discussed — and why there is so much anger and defensiveness — would need to be addressed if an truly honest discussion on ENDA and transgender people is to occur.
The broadbrushing is unfair, and in my opinion is wrong. But, we all know many lesbian and gay people are broadbrushing transgender people, and a many transgender people are broadbrushing lesbian and gay people. And again, we would need to be address this if an truly honest discussion on ENDA and transgender people is to occur.
It’s what we have to work with, sadly.

My views aren’t the issueSt. Barney’s – and ‘incrmemental progress’-addicted gay men’s – are.

What other type of progressis there, KatRose? Particularly when it comes to legislatures?

Back to the bathroom.Kat, I believe you’re now using the public restroom an issue to further divide L, G, B, and T people, instead of saying “gay and transgender people’s civil rights are being denied because social conservatives are using the bathroom to deny members of both our communities of the LGBT community freedom, equality, justice, and civil rights.”
I would sadly say that you, like Rep. Frank, are buying into religious right talking points, or are even giving the religious right talking points.

Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars… Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.
~Martin Luther King Jr.

I know I think of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people as my community neighbors, and I work at treating them as such.

The good neighbor looks beyond the external accidents and discerns those inner qualities that make all men human and, therefore, brothers.
~Martin Luther King Jr.

Call me preachy and stary-eyed, but I like to hope that things will get better…I work for things to get better.
It’s too easy to be a complainer, or an armchair activist, and not make the world a better place for all humanity. I know I still have to deal with my internal angers so I can work to see the world become a better place for LGBT people who will join community in the future…expecially for our next generations of transgender people who will join community in the future.

I read the quotein much he same way and said as much in the initial article. Part of reading this in a way that sounds like questioning the inclusion of trans people in the larger movement is who delivered the message.
Equality Matters – no known trans people working for them, and no particularly visible move to change this.
Equality Matters – no mention of either trangender or transsexual in the mission statement or “About” page.
Kerry Eleveld – past writer for The Advocate, a magazine with a history of lying about trans people to fit a gay/lesbian-only agenda.
Given the simple fact is every other time a cis GLB person or organization has wanted to “discuss trans issues” it results in commentary about trans being a liability to the GLB with no relationship or worse, late comers who are opportunistically using the GLB.
People can’t forget history – and shouldn’t. People seeing the same pattern happen 100 times in the past are going to expect the same thing on time 101.

AutumnDon’t limit it to the big players or the gay men. There are plenty of lesbians who still follow the Daly/Raymond/Greer school of feminism.
There are plenty of state level groups that are more than willing to trans trans-inclusion for gay-only legislation. It should be noted that often the Executive Directors of these gay orgs end up working for the national groups (NGLTF, NCLR, HRC).  
People are justified in their reaction to the EMT who let Tyra Hunter die who was never disciplined and later promoted. How can we not hold our own to the same – since these people who we let work for and lead our groups consigned hundreds and thousands of trans people to the same fate as Tyra’s non-responsive EMT did – on a much larger scale.

grr*trade trans inclusion

Another thought – it’s not impossible to get helpIn New York, December 2002 was a state low point in the struggle of trans activists with gay activists.  In January of that year, I led an “invasion” by 13 trans activists, who swarmed into the Empire State Pride Agenda legislative reception in the well of the legislative office building (something current lobbying laws would not permit) – we drank ESPA’s drinks, ate their canapes, and advocated for trans inclusion in the pending SONDA bill (we even outnumbered the ESPA people there).
In December of that year, State Senator Tom Duane made a valiant last-ditch attempt to amend SONDA to make it trans inclusive.  All but 2 democrats voted for the amendment, all republicans voted against it.  That day, SONDA passed without us.  I was in the gallery of the senate chamber that day, and when I went to congratulate Jeff Soref on his success, he refused to accept my offer of a handshake.
That afternoon, in a stairwell of the state capitol building, Charles King from Housing Works, Melissa Sklarz, and I, decided to move forward with a standalone bill – Charles wanted to call iot GINDA, but I thought GENDA would sound better.  I wrote the first draft a few days later, and we secured a commitment from Senator Duane and Assemblymember Dick Gottfried to carry the bill, which they have since 2003.
Initally, ESPA was still convinced that the trans community had to work on a municipal and county level only.  One trans organization leader dissed the GENDA idea, thinking a standalone GI&E bill would never pass (it hasn’t yet, except in the Assembly, in 2009 and 2010, and we fell one vote shy in a committe last year in getting a floor vote in the senate).
By 2004-5, ESPA had come around and was helping, though many in the trans comuity believed that DASA and Marriage had priority.  A GENDA coalition was set up, with Housing Works and ESPA as lead organizations (trans organizations, like NYTRO and NYAGRA are poor when it comes to funds). Many trans activists have been, until recently, skittish – I was one of the first to start trusting ESPA, and I think that by 2008-9 everyone knew that ESPA was seriously treating GENDA with equal atatus with the other bills.  There was a period in 2010 when ESPA prioritized GENDA so it was their primary focus, since the bill was ready to move.
Right now, marriage is heating up in New York.  We have more work to do on GENDA to be able to bring it up in a state senate conrolled by Republicans.  It is possible, but it will require more work.
But one thing I know, and that is that the Empire State Pride Agenda as the statewide LGBT advocacy organization,is fully supportive of GENDA and is actively working on it.  Marriage Equality New York, while it has a primary focus on marriage, was happy to let me address the 200+ activists they assembled for marriage in New York last week, urging them to use some of their efforts to work for GENDA as well.  It was well received.  Even the HRC field organizer for the mid-Hudson Valley would like to work on GENDA if she gets permission – it would complement her curent work and would not take a lot of additional effort.
Trans organizations that do legislative advocacy in New York do not have paid employees – anything most of us do is when we can take time from the jobs that keep us fed, clothed and housed.  We do need help, and are appreciative when we can get it.
I could tell another story about the transformation of my local LGBT community center from one in whih the T was not even a token, to one whee there is real respect and inclusiveness.
We can fdo it. we can make a difference, and we can work together and get all the jobs done.

Quit being an apologist for a revisionist historical exterminationism tool

Kat, I believe you’re now using the public restroom an issue to further divide L, G, B, and T

And I believe that you – as have many people, in and out of LGBT circles – have been blinded by St. Barney’s Magnificent Morphing Male Organ Narrative.
The reality is that at the time DADT was passed – and for a good while after that – the only LGB or T thing that the vast majority of people (not to mention media) associated with toilets/showers was gay men’s sexual practices (be they real or perceived and be that association justified or not) in men’s toilets/showers.
Over the next decade and a half – largely driven by St. Barney and other gay voices – the politico-rhetorical penis-gaze of America and its media moved from what at least some gay men actually do do and believe that they should have the right to do in men’s toilets/showers to trans women in women’s toilets/showers and something that there has never been a proven (or even credibly alleged) case of any trans woman doing in one.
Why don’t you go dig up what St. Barney’s thoughts – and justifications – were on an inclusive ENDA during the timeframe of the Shaw case? I, and every other trans woman have the right to point out the entire arc of this curiously bent narrative shift – as well as all nuggets thereon.  
I’ll refrain from speculating as to why you’re taking the side that you appear to be taking.

Occam would be proud

Conduct an honest survey on the topic.  Lets find out what disgusts America more: what many gay men  actually do in public men’s rooms or what trans women actually do in women’s rooms.

^This^ is the crux of the matter when it comes to who represents all of us in Washington, what gets done and how it gets spun.  They’ve learned from the current GOP and are using the tactic of accusing a less powerful group of exactly the problematic behavior they themselves are guilty of doing.  I’d note that in that respect, rabid anti-gay religious figures and Barney et all do not appear at all different.
bits-n-pieces:
 Let’s be clear when we’re writing these comments that it’s not gay men, nor even white gay men, nor even wealthy white gay men that are the problem and need to be painted with a broad anti trans coat of paint.  One of the greatest trans advocates of modern American history was a white, wealthy LGBT man.  Our problem is with the powerful people who’ve maneuvered themselves into positions where they claim to represent all of us and fight for all of us in order to maintain their own power and wealth.  That they all happen to be white, gay, wealthy men speaks far more to white male wealthy straight privilege in our society than anything thing else.  We each need to keep that in mind and not go off attacking all gwm’s as if they are Beltway Assimilists.  They’re not.  I’ve watched too many of them get fired for being, well, you know, not gender conforming enough for a particular office or corporate culture.  In some cases they were very private; the non-gender conforming behavior was simply the man they loved.
Details, details…
Let’s not forget the amazing coincidences that occurred in 1973 that were not brought up here.  Gays were delisted as being mentally ill in a straight swap for transsexuals.  Nixon’s little group of protege’s started building their fledgling empire of power in parallel with Focus on the Family and rest of the Televangical/Megaevangelical crowd. All of this is still reaching fruition today and we are being used as a tool to manipulate the largely Christian masses.  Problem is, some of our own non-gender conforming people are wielding us to protect themselves and/or increase their own realm.
Favorite quote from Barney that betrayed a tiny part of why we are “the problem”:  the one that complained we didn’t lobby enough like the NRA.  If he were to back us, he’d have to go up against all who depend on Christian pandering (and riling up) and likely lose money and status.  
What Trans people need to do:
Grow up.  It’s time we take control over our own representation.  No, we don’t have the numbers nor the money nor the political clout to fight our battles by ourselves.  But we do have the ability to loudly ask all who misrepresent us and instead cause us great harm, over and over, to stop including us in their acronym, literature, etc.  We can create structures to inform the media when we are misrepresented and betrayed.  And in the end, the orgs that do not work with us will be seen as hypocrites.  Those regular mainstream cis- hetero- folks understand at both a visceral and intellectual level that being gay, lesbian or bi is in itself non-gender conforming.  And so do most of us.  It’s the one’s that won’t admit it that are the problem.

Well, that’s awfully Freudian of you, KatRose

The 800-lb elephantIf the focus changed to making sure it’s safe for anatomical males to use the men’s room regardless of how they dress, there would be no need for any new legislation.  
There’s your elephant.

gay-only rights laws and then gay marriage and never a thought about trans livesThat’s not ‘incremental’ for gays.  That’s everything that the gays were seeking in the first instance and then that’s more everything that they’re seeking in the second instance and that’s more everything in that they’re not having to even think about trans people.
That’s not ‘incremental’ for trans people.  Its exterminationism by omission.

No, actually it would be Freudian of YOUI was speaking of the gay blog agenda that dares not speak its name openly on certain blogs.
But, if you want to do the Freudian thing, you deal with it in your own way.

How would that work?There already exist laws to criminalize assualt, rape, touching, etc.  There are hate crime kickers for the assualt and rape sentencing.  What other legislative remedy would you propose?

No, it’s your theoryyou test it and prove it.
Now I’m a gay man that has done more than my share of peeking (among other things) in men’s rooms.
The whole “bathroom bill” business never occured to me, actually, and never would.
It would never occur to me that women (cis or trans) would be anything but a woman in the ladies room.

KatRose, pleasenot every state is like that and you know it, being from the Midwest.
Shit, Illinois is the queen state of incrementalism…

Really?When did GLBs have to go back and add public accommodations to non-discrimination laws? How many lesbian-only protections exist that gay and bi men need to do more education to get inclusion?

Exactly.No new legislation required; everything you need is already on the books.
As for how it would work, just add cross-dressing to the existing anti-bullying education, agitate to make sure that “dress panic” isn’t an acceptable assault defense, and we’re done with this.
It’s a whole lot more do-able than trying to convince every man and woman on Earth that penises are female.

That was hardly the point of thatbut then again, maybe here’s a point where I am privileged

Filters and filters and filtersMaybe it’s time for a little self-reflection on everyone’s part here…
For example, when someone says “trans” — does your “filter” automatically switch to MTF?
I’d be willing to bet that for most folks, they’re perception of what “trans” means is driven almost entirely by the idea that trans = transexual post (or near post)-operative female and that their experiential database (from the media) typically includes only images of men transitioning to women.  FTM transgender men (like Chaz Bono) don’t immediately come to mind.
That’s a problem… because it also plays into the “men in dresses” narrative that Porno Pete’s ilk like to hammer on.
And let’s also not forget the recent flame wars on this blog between and amongst the T-community over identity definitions and representation.
If “we” — as in the LGBT-”we” can’t get our language and messaging straight (ahem), then how can we expect to move people that literally see us like we’re from another planet?

I repeat, riotgirlEvery civil rights law ever written was “incremental” in nature.
Many civil rights laws have contained loopholes that allowed bigotry to squeeze through and they needed to back back and be addressed.
That’s a fact.
Now if you want to specify non-discrimination laws here, that’s on you.
I am quite sure that there are loopholes and ommissions in the non-discrimination laws of, say, Illinois or Colorado or Washington or Minnesota that need to be addressed.
Of course, that’s probably more true for T’s than anyone else but that may also be true for LGB’s as well.  

Good comment

For example, when someone says “trans” — does your “filter” automatically switch to MTF?

Speaking for myself, no.
In fact, I often wonder what transmen have to say when these threads pop up. I’m glad that at least one transman participted in this thread.
That may also mean that in sheer numbers there are more transwomen than transmen also.

WTF?

KatRose, please
not every state is like that and you know it, being from the Midwest.
Shit, Illinois is the queen state of incrementalism…

What the f**k does this even mean?

Anger can be helpful. Deriding and Dividing much less so.EliDeep, because of your intersections you are in a position to see the divisions for what they are.  On the one hand we have people who do not want any threat to their dream of assimilation.  On the other we have those who have no choice as assimilation is not an option.  And yeah, I’m painting with a brush so wide it won’t even fit in the paint can, but you get the idea.  Much of the following is for people with less or different intersections.
This entire mess revolves around a simple observation.  It’s not mine, it comes from all those people that know nothing about who or what any of us are and frankly don’t really think about us all that much unless it’s brought to their attention.  And that observation is that all of us, L, G, B and T (including Women of History and GWM of Power) defy in some way our society’s false expectation of a pure gender binary.  Worse yet, we cross thresholds in the distance we veer from conforming to our cultures false standard of what and how a 100% man or 100% woman must be.  The ‘T’ word has been twisted and shredded and wrung out to the point of being near useless, but one more time, for old time’s sake:
If you wear the clothing of the ‘wrong’ sex or gender…you are trans.
If you were born with the wrong genitalia or endocrine system or body map…you are trans.
If you perform the role of the wrong gender or sex…you are trans.
If you love or lust after the wrong bodied person…you are trans.
If you marry the wrong sex or gender…you are trans.
If you have mannerisms of the wrong sex or gender…you are trans.
If you have the internal identity of the wrong sex or gender…you are trans.
If you have the cultural interests of, work the job of, have the favorite color of, follow the televised sports of, or simple seem to similar to, the wrong gender or sex…You. Are. Trans.
Think of ‘Trans’ not as meaning TG or TS, but simply, ‘trans’.  Opposite of.  Across from.  Inverse.  We’re all being pitted against each other fighting for crumbs.  We’re all being used as the very useful ‘other’, as that-which-is-not-us.  We’re the boogey-monster that threatens the cohesion and stability of the in-group.  And at it’s core that in-group is based on it’s members subsuming their own individuality in trade for the safety of conformity.  Problem is, the whole thing is based not only on the 2-3000 year old fallacy of gender and sex binaries, but that one half of the binary is superior.
THAT is the baggage each of us carries.  That’s the legacy we were handed at birth.  But because we are of different cultures, races, socio-economic levels and opportunity we deal with it differently as individuals and in our aggregate groups.  Now layer on top of it all things like intrinsic personality types, coping mechanisms, etc., etc. and the landscape we are discussing suddenly seems clear.
Nothing will change until we can find ways to fight together that still respect our individual differences.  We must find ways to become a coalition that exists for the sole purpose of gaining equality for all who do not meet our culture’s arbitrary and false sex or gender expectations.

It means thatIllinois has an ENDA law (as does Iowa and Minnesota).
Trans inclusive.
Illinois has left none of the lGBT community behind that I know of, to the best of its’ ability to enact legislation.
New York, Maryland, and Massachusetts obviously wouldn’t be model states. Don’t ignore the model states that ARE out there.
And I think that you’re from the Midwest, so you know this.
All gay groups in all states and municipalities leave trans folks behind? That’s a really broad (and untrue) brush.
And that’s not to see that laws don’t need tweaking and upgrading either.

It’s because of patriarchyWomen transitioning to men isn’t threatening to a patriarchal society as men transitioning to women.
No one cares that trans men are in men’s bathrooms.

I don’t know about in Illinois…but in Minnesota, gay groups did their damnedest to leave trans people behind. They actively sabotaged their own civil rights legislation in 1974 to kill trans nondiscrimination, and only grudgingly supported it in 1993 when Governor Carlson indicated that it was all the way or no way.

I’m not a crossdresser, I’m not using the men’s roomI operate in stealth day-to-day, forcing me to use the men’s bathroom is really an invasion of privacy.

And that’s the type of advocatein government that trans folk (and, I would argue, LGB folks) need. Fuck Barney Frank…as I said, even a lot of LGBs don’t like dealing with him to be honest.

ENDA has been under the bus so often it’s in tatters. 
Keep in mind that ENDA, inclusive or not, has been introduced in every Congress but one since 1994 and each time it’s been peremptorily dismissed by Congressional Democrats.  The fact that this discussion has been repeated every time we go under the bus is ample proof that Barney Frank and Congressional leaders of both parties know how to apply the old Roman dictum Divide et Impera with a sure hand.
Dissension between the G, L. B and T communities has been cultivated by Democrats and by quisling groups like HRC every time ENDA came up to try to conceal the fact that Democrats don’t want ENDA because it’ll make it harder for them to trawl for bigot votes and money from business who don’t want working class LGBT folks to get equal wages.
Its critical in these discussions to remember that our enemies are in the WH, Congress and quisling groups like, but not limited to, HRC. It was Barney Frank who pushed the idea that trans folks were responsible for scuttling ENDA in 2007, when in fact it was his efforts that did it in. The events of 2007 and 2010 are not the fault of the different GLBT communities but of the need for Democrats to get elected and the idiocy of some in our communities who accept that as more important than fight for our agenda and ourselves.
The root cause lies in the contradiction between insistence on failed strategies like lobbying and electing backstabbing Democrats opposed to mass actions (as in “Walk Like an Egyptian”) and supinely depending on those same backstabbers to pass protective laws.  
Let’s stop blaming each other and start blaming Obama, Pelosi, Frank, Reid and their Republican cousins.  

So thank you for proving MY pointIllinois indeed is NOT ‘incremental.’
In New York, et. al., it is “gay-only rights laws and then gay marriage and never a thought about trans lives” – just as I said.

I’d rather just stp blaming altogether……and work out strategies for making ENDA actually happen.

What unites us is that we are all “Gender Outlaws”Men loving men and women loving women challenge the Heterosexual Dictatorship (Christopher Isherwood’s ever-useful term) which sees gender in terms of very specific behaviors that are only allowed within a “traditional” Male/Female context. Trans likewise violates “norms” established by the HD in that it renders the body a site of alteration rather than house from which there is no possibility of exit or alteration.
For a man to want another man is “not to be male.” For a woman to want another woman is “not to be female.” For either sex to transition into another is for the status quo a kind of gender terrorism. This is typified by The Silence of the Lambs — which as we all know won an Oscar for making transgender synonymous with “serial killer.”
I’ll never forget an early preview of that film, whose climax had a great many in the audience screaing “KILL THE FAGGOT! KILL THE FAGGOT!”

And neither is Iowa or Minnesotafor that matter.
Or Connecticut.
Or California.
At least according to your standard.
I’m not a lawyer, so I wouldn’t be aware of the loopholes that actually exist in those laws, but I’m sure that they are there…
that was a part of my point about incrementalism. Sometimes you can’t possibly address everything.
But what worked in Illinois or California or Minnesota (and someone provided a little info about Minnesota here) that hasn’t worked in thse great liberal bastions of New York, Massachusetts, and Maryland.
(Interestingly neither New York nor Maryland has marriage equality at the present time either.)
We know what hasn’t worled. You droned on and on and on and on about.
But what is (working or has worked? And why?

Oh, and Illinois was nomere” ENDA law. Sexual orientation and gender identity was included into the Human Rights Act.
That cover housing, credit checks, etc.
And that may be true in other states.

In New York, we’re working on MArriage and GENDAAnd last year, it looked like GENDA was going to get through before marriage.  This year, it looks like Marriage is first. Part of this has to do with having to educate a new Governor and his having, as attorney general, gotten an excellent settlement in a trans employment case (American Eagle Outfitters) that used existing law which is vague.
No great caselaw though, and no GENDA yet.

The problem is that trans women are not “anatomical males”Anatomy includes our brains as well as our genitals – and someone who is mentally and socially female in every other way but genital shape is not going to be using the men’s room.
It would be like asking Jamie Lee Curtis (example by reputation, not proof) or someone else with CAIS wwho has an XY 23rd pair of chromosomes, to use the men’s room because every cell of her body is “male.”
Or perhaps an XX woman with PCOS and visible beard growth – she has a lot of testosterone in her system, so she should pee with the boys despite other factorsmaking her female.
Trans women are not the same as gay men who do drag, or part time non-trans identified heterosexual crossdressers.  We are not males wearing costumes.

Even Yasmin Nair has notedthat Equality Illinois hasn’t been beating the marriage drum (well, they are now.)
Nair has even noted that Equality Illinois has worked on quite a few things other than marriage.
Now what happens now that Rick Garcia is no longer there, I don’t know.

Why not blame the Democrats and Republicans (as parties) if they’re the perps? I don’t the problem is ‘blaming’ so much as blaming one another instead of our enemies like Obama, Boner, Reid and especially Frank.
As a strategy do you think a mass action campaign of repetitive demonstrations – local, regional, bicoastal or in DC – would be better than endlessly electing backstabbers or pursuing largely unproductive lobbying efforts? To me both lobbying and electing Democrats seem proven failures in the long and short run.  
What do you think of the proposal for a new March on Washington?

Still, you’ve come up with an oddly mixed metaphoreIt should come as no surprise that your title would create confusion.  The expressions are, “The 800 pound Gorilla,” and, “The elephant in the room.”  As elephants go, 800 lbs is extremely petite.  Juvenile in fact, since they weigh around 260 lbs at birth.  Adult African elephants weigh from 7,700 lbs to 26,000lbs.  By comparison, light riding horses weigh between 840 to 1,200 lbs, and heavier breeds can run as high as 2,200 lbs.  Why, an 800 lb elephant would be cute as a bug and something you would want to take home as a pet.  Hardly something you would take seriously.
Unless, of course, that’s the point you were trying to make.

Wavy feminists are a whole ‘nother ball of waxThe key concept underlying even Third Wave feminists is that gender is purely a social construct, that each person is a blank slate at birth when it comes to gender.  Third Wave  strives to be inclusive of all women…all cis women.  So mote it be.
Many trans men didn’t expect so much venom from what they once considered their family.  Trans women typically don’t start out in the gay world (though some do!) but catch hell from the wavy feminists, especially if the trans woman happens to be lesbian or otherwise needs to interact with them.  And trans gay men have so much culture of their own to fight against.  Again, not always.  But it’s far too common a narrative.  
Seems like all this mostly started at the same time as the modern (20th cen) civil rights movement…lotta power there to divvy up.
My guess, my hope and my expectation is that just as Barney Frank is getting older and will become irrelevant in the next decade or so, so will the second and third wave feminists that currently hold court.
But now, here’s the part that really baffles me:
The talk on this thread that goes the other way.  The anti-gay, anti-lesbian talk (okay, fine, I’ll include anti-bi but only cause I don’t want to hurt their feelings).
Half of us trans people are lesbian, or gay, or bi.  Half of us.  
And all gays, lesbians and bis (hey! ‘bis’ works on multiple levels!) by definition break gender and sex stereotypes and expectations.
So let’s be specific; it’s the leaders.  The ones who have the most to gain by pitting lesbians against trans, gays against lesbians, trans against them both.  True, there are no actual trans leaders, but there are activists and personal benefit can be just as strong as financial or political.

Actually, that was my thought.Sometimes I know I stick messaging in my essays that is so obliquely formed I wonder if anyone gets what I was communicating.
As an intentionally mixed metaphor that really was kind of slantedly reasoned — the small elephant in the room that never forgets — I guess I’m pretty amazed that you spelled out what I was obliquely trying to say. When I reread the title this morning, I was pretty sure no one was going to figure out what I meant.

Some clarification please?Some of the issues you mention are specific to transsexuals, people so clearly in conflict between their neurological, endocrinological and internal processes that their core identity is at odds and even in strong conflict with the one assigned at birth.  I’d go so far as to say that they (we) belong on the other side of the highly overlapping male and female double bell curves for sex and gender and the issues you brought up are practical ones that stand in the way of being able to function.  That sounds an awful lot more like ADA and similar sort of stuff (see California for a good-but-not-perfect reference).
Others, however seem to apply to anyone that crosses gender or sex lines and boundaries in our society. They deal with civil rights and more broad human rights.  The ability to work and make a living.  The ability to provide for one’s self a safe home.  The ability to perform biological functions in a safe, efficient and socially unobtrusive manner (yeah, that last one depends on society being well, polite).
So, if those assumptions are correct, don’t we need to split them apart when appropriate?  Aren’t there some inequalities that only affect trans people and others that only affect gays and lesbians (& bis in a g or t relationship)?  And some that are far more basic that affect most who don’t or can’t conform to gender/sex expectations?  
My point is, at the bottom of the heap we have basic issues where it’s clear how the groups have the exact same fight.  The higher up you go, however, the more the need for each group to take responsibility for their own and enter into coalitions with the other groups.  Because even if they don’t, their oppressors will do it for them.
Perhaps the first step in creating a dialog is to get organized…

This really lept out at me

…a cis GLB person or organization has wanted to “discuss trans issues”

Assuming ‘trans’ in this context means, “people who don’t fit mainstream social sex & gender expectations”…since they are leaving behind the obvious fact that they too belong in that category by light of same-sex attraction, but to a lesser degree, what in the world gives them any idea that they should do anything other than listen?
That strikes me as pandering and patronizing at best, and in a less generous view, enforcing a hierarchy that benefits them most.  And that kinda fits the general model of discrimination.

Okay, new strategy thenDon’t involve Obama, Frank, Reid and their Republican cousins.  And that includes HRC and their ilk.
I don’t mean that flippantly.  Our strategy must change.  The one thing that hasn’t changed is who we’ve trusted to make it happen.  
We need to do this for ourselves.  All of us that want equality.

Mrs Grover Cleveland’s predecessoras White House Hostess was Rose Cleveland, the President’s sister, an out Lesbian
Butch Lesbians do not get protected, even in New York, from harrassment, til Gender Expression or perceived Gender Identity gets included. A host of incidents speaks to that.
But Barney is willing to sacrifice my Lesbian sisters to his “bathroom purity” while the entire community, back in the middle part of the last decade, pulled together to try and protect men like Barney from entrapment, robo-pottys and park and bathroom raids.
Between a third and a half of the Lesbian community will not have protections til the trans-people do; statements about “a few thousand  holding up the rights of millions” are bulldirt; they convieniently exclude the millions of butch Lesbians concurrently cast out into the darkness.

OwnershipThere are some serious past events/comments/attitudes/legal struggles that have to be addressed before real dialogue can begin. Autumn points out specifics regarding ENDA – but there are many more that are tied to academics, hiring policies, legislation, and overall culure.
We, as trans people, have been asked to forgive and forget only to be soundly dismissed again. It really is beyond belief that the HRC, EQMD, NCLR, GLAAD, etc. are expecting us to once again forgive and forget.
The anger you see has its roots in a number of separate but connected events. It’s an interesting observation that many trans women have made – “I get more understanding and acceptance among cis straight people than I do among the GLB.” I can attest that this is very true in my own life. It is also an interesting observation that trans women, with the exception of a token in the HRC, are not in any leadership position in any of the national groups I mentioned above.
We have been asked to blindly trust the motivations and sincerity for groups who have not shown themselves to be trustworthy or sincere. We are asked to trust individuals who seem mysteriously absent when discussions about “trans inclusion” (read exclusion) happen on the other big blogs (When a majority of gay.com’s readers vote to exclude trans people last year and the majority of the comments talking about inclusion ID as trans – that means something). When trans posts on JMG or Queerty invariably turn into “this isn’t a gay issue – we shouldn’t have this here” – that means something. When trans women pointing out the history and current realities get called divisive and angry (but the same doesn’t happen on JMG, Queerty, AmericaBlog when it’s cis gay men making the observations – really means something.

The Pink Gorilla will defeat you Autumn …..because you see the world as rational. Wake up Maggie there’s something I’ve got to say to you. It’s mid September and I’ve really got to be back at school.
Go and learn the meaning of this.  

So what do Intersexed women do?Women who have masculinised genitalia, when they’re pregnant?
Because they exist now. You just don’t know about them, because you haven’t bothered studying the issue.

Name the Politician

“So,” I said, “does your support of transgender inclusion in the VAWA mean that you might be changing your mind about inclusion of gender-variant people in ENDA?” An innocent enough question, but you would have thought that I was threatening him with a loaded weapon. He got red in the face and started shouting, “Never.” His problem was that until we could answer the question of “people with penises in [women's] showers,” there is no way that he would support it. The conversation got rather heated to say the least. And with (him) speaking very loudly and repeatedly about “penises in showers,” we attracted a lot of attention in the restaurant.

While this guy is involved with the issue, there will never be a version of ENDA that allows restroom use for trans people.
You see… he believes in the “Bathroom bill” BS.
The trouble is, that a bill that explicitly excludes trans people from using restrooms is all too easily amended by opponents to exclude gays too. In fact, there’s a better case for doing that than excluding Intersexed people, who would be protected under “gender identity”.
And that is why the bill was “stuck in committee”, and according to Diego Sanchez, “the wording is still being worked on” even now.
Oh, the name of the politician who actually buys the “Bathroom Bill” BS?
Barney Frank.

You mistake my optimism……and desired to find a way to work with others as a fruitless dallience kind of thing. (I was in 7th grade when Rod Stewart’s Maggie May was a hit, btw.)
My personal mission and vision include Roz Kaveney’s Six Rules Of Transgender Activism:

1.) Display solidarity with all our trans brothers and sisters.
2.) Build alliances by getting involved as ourselves in other areas of politics.
3.) Refuse to let journalistic and intellectual attacks on our community go unanswered – we can have and keep the moral high ground.
4.) Be creative, be smart, be ourselves, and don’t let anybody tell us who we are and what we do.
5.) Refuse the pathological model – we are not sick, just different.
6.) Refuse those politics – heterosexism, body fascism – that work against all of the above, but especially #1.

Axioms two and six apply as to why I attempt to work with others in LGBT community.
And too, I believe in what Martin Luther King Jr. stated about love and hope.

Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into a friend.

And…

Now, I say to you today my friends, even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream. I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: – ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal.’

And…

We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope.

I prefer to work with others; I prefer love; I prefer to hope. I will not be deterred by finite disappointments.

WHAT?I would’ve had the bitch arrested for voyeurism! That and she’d have to be treated for injuries to the face…

pedantic gossipGoes that maybe the Maggie May thing means not fruitless dalliance but acceptance that the establishment ( HRC etc) will need to be given more credit than they deserve in order to get them moving.
( Used to know a couple of the Faces back in the day and the word was that Rod only agreed to record the song if he got 50% of the credits. )

What’s with this “but to a lesser degree” crap?Do you honestly think out enemies have a hierarchy of hatred? They hate us ALL with a force you cannot possibly imagine.
And they want us ALL dead.
They also love us sniping at each other.  

My laundry list does not have to be in a single bill . . . For example, in New York, there are three bills out there that are trans-related – GENDA, Marriage, and a single issue bill sponsored by Assemblymember Bing (I don’t know if it has been re-intorduced for his session) that deals specifically with taking transition off the table in child custody and visitation matters – as too many trans parents (like me, for example) are deprived of all parental rights for no reason other than the fact thjat we are trans.
I agree, some of the needs I expressed in my discussion list are transsexual specific.  That doesn’t make them any less needed, though.
Marriage is an issue for all of us – while I have a legal lesbian marriage in New York because of the loophole of my unamended birth certificate, I still have potential DOMA challenges once I step outside the state, and no guarantee that my marriage would survive a court challenge in any state.  (Yes, some straight post-ops might oppose marriage equality, claiming that all they need is to have their sex recognized and the current discrimination should continue – but they remind me of members of GOProud, except with a different version of “I’ve got, or should have, mine, and to hell with everyone else.”)
Issues relaing to housing, employment and public accommodations, are everyone’s issues (except where the trans community was left out, as we were in New York State in 2002).
GENDA-type bills including public accommodations are also relevant to the LGBs – sometimes discrimination isn’t based on sexual orientation but on gender expression, even for them. (It’s one reason GI&E managed to stay in New York’s recently-passed Dignity for All Students Act – in elementary school, sissy boys and tomboy girls are expressing gender differently, not expressing a future sexual orientation.)
So, having separate bills is appropriate for many issues.  On the other hand, if everything that hasn’t gotten through were to be written into a single bill, it might be a tougher lift, but if the whole community got behind the whole thing, it could work. (Imagine, on the federal level, tying DOMA repeal to a full civil rights bill, immigration reform and a gender recognition act, etc, all tied up with a bow into a single Comprehensive Omnibus Civil Rights Act.
 

“I’d rather just stp blaming altogether”And you’ll move right on to pardoning Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld for their war crimes?  (Too bad you weren’t in Tokyo in 1945-6; the comps list for one of my fields would have about half as many books on it as it now does.  Hell, I bet Bernie Madoff wishes he’d had your phone number.)
The people who ramrod gay-only laws through have to be held to account for their political hate crimes against trans people instead of getting promotions (Steve Endean, Matt Foreman, Liz Seaton, et. al.) – or they will continue to commit new political crimes against trans people with impunity (can we say ‘Marriage in New York’ or, ‘Marriage in Maryland’?) and they will breed new generations of self-serving, gay-primacy greedmeisters who know that they will never pay any price for their roles in erecting third-class status for trans people, even when they do so by openly lying about the current state of the law (e.g., ‘a trans amendment isn’t necessary because trans people are already covered under Maryland law because of a bunch of out-of-state trial court and administrative decisions that have no relevance whatsoever to Maryland law, but I’m not trans and have no experience attempting to find work post-transition and I never will, so none of this really affects me anyway – now forget about that trans stuff and move along to more important things like gay marriage in case I ever need to get a gay divorce in Maryland‘).

sure“I prefer to work with others; I prefer love; I prefer to hope. I will not be deterred by finite disappointments.”
That’s fine – I think most people would join you in those feelings. But seriously, how long do we need to wait on the GLB – and not just the HRC but all the state and national orgs, the people writing and commenting on blogs, the people supporting and providing language for bills? How long are we expected to reasonably wait while our unemployed were used to pass gay-only job protections in NY and NH? How long are we supposed to wait while Liz Seaton, who lied to the MD people to get a gay-only protection bill passed now works for NCLR after writing policy about Trans people for the HRC? How long are we supposed to wait while gay news de-gays our relationships to make cases for same-sex marriage?
Seriously, we want to hold the government to a time table on issues. We call out and snark the RR when they make claims about the LGB(T) but we can’t talk about the fact that our track record at the state and national level with the GLB is about 50%? It is 100% that groups from WI to NH and all the states that protect gays but not trans used unemployment and homeless stats about trans people.
How long do we wait while it becomes clearer and clearer that to the GLB the only useful trans woman is either out of work or the victim of a violent crime. How long to we give them to call out their own by name and ask then to explain? How long do we give them to actually make our needs a priority?

KatRoseSimply put, there are other LGBT groups besides the usual suspects that have worked sucessfully for the trans community.
There are other politicians that have worked successfully for the trans community.
Bitch, gripe, and moan and be angry; I’m not saying don’t do that; you have every right to but…
That’s not an end in and of itself. There’s too much evidence out there to contradict that.
There are groups and LGBs and politicians that work very well for the trans community.
Bitching about Barney Frank is fine. Find someone to work with other than Barney Frank (and it can be a cis straight person)

Where?Where are the non-trans people trying to get the government to regulate the insurance industry to cover trans-related care?
Where are the groups working in the 3 states that won’t let us change our birth certificates before they work on marriage rights?
Where are the LGBs countering and calling out the comments on other blogs and news articles about trans people?
Where are the LGBs asking how Liz Seaton could lie to the folks in MD, get a better job at the HRC to co-author their Trans workplace discrimination guide and then move on to the NCLR?
Where are the LGBs vocally questioning how advocacy groups can have zero representation by trans women (HRC token aside)?

KatRose is too busy atacking gay men, kevinchiApparently we are the Root of All Evil, and guilty of “Hate Crimes” for not supporting the trans community in the way she demand.  

Bullshit, riotgirlno, every single LGB is not transphobic (and just yesterday at JMG I saw 3-4 different posters call out a transphobic comment.
And as far as the licenses were concerned, we did that whole issue in Illinois recently…
And every single LGB in America doesn’t follow even LGB related news, much less T-related news. Apathy in our community runs deep.
It’s your choice not to look for allies in the community.

Correctionnot sure abt. the birth certificate issue…

Ya know David, anger is one thingI’m am not about to tell someone who lacks privilege that they shouldn’t be angry.
But when the anger makes you “blind and deaf” to the entirety of your surroundings and it crosses certain lines, then it’s a whole other ball game.
And I know that when I, personally, get angry like that then I’m really not the best judge of what the right thing to say and do in those moments…I just start lashing out (and I may not lash out at whom or what makes me angry).
Now am I saying this from a position of privilege in relation to KatRose? Yes, in part. But it’s also a been there, done that type of of thing.

Please can we focus on the future instead of the past?This “discussion” looks more like a litany of finger pointing for past failures.
I would like to ask opinions on 2 questions.
Question #1 … does anyone think an inclusive ENDA can even make it out of committee in either the house or senate in 2011?
Question #2 … Does anyone think a non-inclusive ENDA can make it out of committee in either the house or senate in 2011.
My answer to #1 is no.
My answer to #2 is a conditional yes. The condition is that the 300 or so LGBT organizations refrain from torching Barney and friends for incremental-ism.

Question, DeenaWhy are you pushing for a non-inclusive ENDA?
ENDA at the federal level is dead in the water as far as this Congress is concerned.
Better to concentrate on what needs to be done in the various states…anything at the federal level would have to be done by President Obama…and I think that the President would be inclined to do what he can for the trans community if trans activists can get whatever necessary proposal in fron of his face (as opposed to his staff).

Drama Much?David there is a history – a past chock full of gay men and lesbians using trans people to further their cultural and legal needs. You know this, since you experienced it.
Until there is some acknowledgment of this history and some good faith efforts to own these and fix them I don’t see how the movement can move forward.
I honestly think large numbers of trans people would like to have LGB people as allies and have a single movement. I also think that many of us are leery of that relationship based on past and current experiences.
HRC is a convenient target, but lets be honest – it goes back farther than that and it exists in every national group and many, if not most, of our state level groups.
I’m asking that the GLB own their stuff regarding trans people and then question the folks who led the groups and made the decisions to use and then exclude trans people as recently as NH.

But is that ALL of the history, rioTgirl?It’s extremely rare that history (and I mean any history) fits the one sole pattern that you describe.

Because I don’t trust that what you are saying is 100% trueor the whole story.
I’m not saying that because I’m transphobic, I’m saying that because I’m an eternal skeptic and cynic who believes very little of what anyone puts in front of me and I very very rarely accept what anyone says as the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

DOA? You sure?Kevin I am not pushing it. If any form of ENDA is DOA then this whole thread is nothing more than a bitch session. But in the name of an open and honest discussion I thought those 2 questions pertinent. I provided my answers though they may be wrong. Your answers seem to be both no’s.
I hope others will provide their own answers.

Well, people are trying to perfom an autopsyis how I’ve looked at this thread and the Eleveld thread.
But…yeah, at the federal level, ENDA is OA for now.

The assumption of LGB “Privilege” is a Total FatasyWhat’s this site turning into? A “I’ve had it worse than you so don’t you DARE speak to me!” Pity-Party?
I should have commented on it earlier but the notion that the LGB’s won being declassified by the American Psychiatric Association by throwing trans people under the bus is a monstrous fucking libel.
I am THIS CLOSE to saying I’ve had it and leave this site once and for all, becuse no serious conversation seems possible anymore.
Yes, I’m witing for the “Goodbye and Good Riddance” that’s sure to follow.  

See here the thing

I should have commented on it earlier but the notion that the LGB’s won being declassified by the American Psychiatric Association by throwing trans people under the bus is a monstrous fucking libel.

I don’t know that for a fact.
But you know, stuff like Barney Frank and other gay men are projeting their bathroom issues onto to trans women really takes the fucking cake.
Now I will be the first to acknowledge LGB privilege.
But some of this stuff that transfolk have written in these past 2 diaries just seems like so much spaghetti on a damn wall.
As if their claim of being marginalized (and I’m not saying they aren’t…oh, they are) means that they can say anything and I’m supposed to believe that the story is 100% true and factual.
Please.

To me…it really seems likeno one wants to solve the problem.

Kat’s BlogIs an excellent resource for the legal end of things. If you haven’t checked out ENDABlog I think it’s a good start.
From a history/cultural perspective – now that’s my bag and my educational background. In the 70′s and 80′s there was the development of Gay History.
The Gay Book of Days – Martin Greif makes trans people gay for the purpose of establishing a gay history.
Another Mother Tongue – Judy Grahn conflates gender and sexuality in ways that erase trans identities while proving the spiritual importance of G/L identities.
Gay American History – Jonathan Katz again, in proving the existence of gays in the history of American culture uses two-spirit and trans people.
The Advocate – calling Calpernia Adams a gay man to further discussion about gays in the military. Using heterosexual trans people getting married to further gay marriage in NY.
There is the history of people heading the state level groups that traded or lied about trans protections moving on to bigger and better paying jobs within the movement. Mind you, this same history and these same groups don’t seem to feel the need to hire or promote trans women into their groups.
There is Janice Raymond (dun dun dun) Lesbian Feminist whose work was used to stop medicare/aid from assisting transition – thus opening the door to insurance companies following suit.
The trade off of Homosexuality for Transsexuality in the DSM in 1977.
There is the history of trans-specific legal gains beginning in the 50′s and ending in the 70′s as the Gay Lib movement became more vocal and began using trans women as shock troops. After this, the only trans-specific legal gains have been the few times where gay-only legislation was fixed to include trans people.
I’m not even going into GLB groups undermining the work of trans people, Slyvia Rivera being physically restrained from speaking, Jim Fouratt’s letter to the NYT and erasure/ minimization of trans participation in the early years of the movement.
Can you point to anything other than maybe a quote from Christine Jorgensen that comes close to the above?

Woah nowLook at when the DSM declassified Homosexuality and then added the various sub-sets of “Transvestism” and “Gender Non-Conforming Youth” (or however it’s termed in the current version).

But they did thatbecause a lobby of gay men and lesbians suggested that they do that?

OK, on the historical point hereWas there even a category like “trans” in the 1950′s.
I suppose that now you could talk about trans people back in a certain time in history but how would a) they have identified themselves or b) how would the culture around them identified them?
The trade off of Homosexuality for Transsexuality in the DSM in 1977.

The trade off of Homosexuality for Transsexuality in the DSM in 1977.

I’m to take your word for that? And isn’t “transexualism”, in fact, a diagnosis that has to be made?
I don’t make it a habit of reading the DSM and I know that many of the issues with trans folk (and the intersex) are medical issues. Are you saying that they are not?

Growing upI do indeed agree that the great failing of the trans community is a lack of maturity.  Maturity on almost any scale you choose to measure it, but most strikingly emotional.  In terms of high principle, I would agree with your thoughts on taking control of our own representation, but in practice I have to ask, how?  By whom?  The problem is the lack of agency.  No one really has any.  Who is going to be the officiating agent who is going to take control of our representation, ask loudly, and create structures?  I can guarantee you that with this community, plagued by the lack of emotional maturity it takes to play well together, people will invest much more time and energy trying to tear down anyone who steps up to form such an organization or claim such agency for our community than they will be willing to commit to pitching in and helping, much less support them through their donations.
Saying other people need to do things doesn’t get things done.  All of our best ideas are expressed in terms of what other people aught to do.  We need initiative and we need leaders.  Who is going to do these things?

Speaking for meand me only the things I’m pointing out are to serve as a frame of reference to show why I have problems trusting gay organizations’ or, to a much lesser extent, individuals’ motivations when it comes to trans people and issues.
I came out at 15 as gay, began transition at 20 in 2000/01. During those 5 years I was out and as active as I could be in the gay political movement. Part of my passion has always been history, so I forged relationships with the people locally who had been doing the heavy lifting in the earlier years of the movement. When I tackled being trans and announced that I would be transitioning what did I hear from my older friends?
“Transsexuals are really conservative to change sex because of personality traits”
“It’s a more radical act to be a ‘different kind of man’ than to be a woman”
“Transsexuals use the gay community just long enough to betray it and become straight”
“You need to fight your internalized homophobia”
Now this wasn’t universal, but was repeated enough that I remember it. I also found out that these sentiments weren’t rare among L/G leaders and academics from the 70′s – 90′s. Surely not shared by all or probably even most, but enough to inform the focus of the movement.
So, that’s the personal. Through my own observations what I see is 30 years of a movement that is conflicted by the existence of trans people in it – folks either moving into or out of the G/L. On one hand we are present and counted – on the other we are/were an easy thing to bargain away or to scapegoat. The past 5 or so years show a change in attitude, but along with that change is the expectation that the past be forgotten without being addressed. That’s where I’m having trouble trusting – you can’t remove bricks from a wall, fail to put something in its place, and expect the wall to hold any weight.
What I see in the current movement is more support for inclusive legislation and more support for and awareness of trans issues. I also see some movement to back fill legislation – and all of this is good. However, the history remains, the lies happened, the trades were made, and the liars and traders are still in positions within the movement. While I think there is movement in the right direction, the history and the expectation to forget it only makes me more wary.

It’s not “LGB privilege”…it’s cis privilege.  Just because you are marginalized in some way doesn’t mean that you don’t have privilege.  White men still have white privilege and male privilege even if they are gay.

This is a good commentAnd these statements are very instructive

“Transsexuals are really conservative to change sex because of personality traits”
“It’s a more radical act to be a ‘different kind of man’ than to be a woman”
“Transsexuals use the gay community just long enough to betray it and become straight”
“You need to fight your internalized homophobia”

From my vantage point as a gay black man, some of this stuff sounds very familiar…particularly the charge often leveled at me (to this day) that “you don’t want to be one of us” or things of that nature…it’s a feeling that the community can be, at times, insular. And there’s reasons that minority communities become insular and…is xenophobic the right word here? (I do have a visceral disgust for insularity)
I mean, it’s not exactly alike, it manifests itself in different ways, of course, but the general outine is the same.

WellIn the 50′s there were “sex changes” and transsexual people were working with their state governments to accommodate the reality.
Your point about people from different historical periods is well taken, and part of the reason I didn’t really get into it that much. As much as I criticize Gay History for appropriating people’s lives, I’m not going to do the same. The best I can say is something like:
If they were alive today and in the U.S. or Europe, they would probably be trans. It is like the Hijra in Pakistan and India. Some identify fully as transsexual women and some as a historically culturally supported third gender. There is also traditionally a blend with gay men along the borders of Hijra and “fey” gay men.
As far as diagnosis – yes I think being transsexual is a medical issue. I don’t think it is wholly a psychological issue. Also, yes under the current standards of care a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder must be made in order to access transition.

Which problem? Whose responsibility is it?I’m lost.

You’re tellling me you’re lost!Especially with all this “cis” crap!
When I’m beaten up by thugs for being gay do I bleed differently than you do?
I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts you believe that I do.  

The issue still hasn’t been addressed.Every one keeps talking about talking about talking about…
I’m going to quote part of Deena’s previous comment here out of order, because it strikes me as particularly applicable (emphasis added by me):

In my opinion we would be well served to recognize the mythical Pink Gorilla. Mythical just like Santa Claus yet Santa is very real around December when most retailers either make or break their annual sales quota’s. So too the Pink Gorilla who appears in people’s minds when the “bathroom issue” surfaces.
Let me suggest that we need to either cage the Pink Gorilla or go for a non-inclusive ENDA. Your choice. How do you cage him? With the truth. The truth is any transgender person idiotic enough to display a penis in a communal restroom or shower should be charged with inciting a riot or at least disturbing the peace. We need to convince the “opposition” that there is no real threat here to acceptable public standards of decent behavior. To be blunt I don’t know a single pre-op MTF who would even think of openly displaying a penis while in a ladies room. If you can find one please do us all a favor and knock some sense into that warped individual. Tell them if they need to show their penis please do it outside on the street preferably to a police officer (of either sex).

First of all, let me thank Deena for that quote, and say that I am pleased to see that it looks like we agree much more than we disagree (if, in fact, we disagree at all) on this issue!
The sad fact of the matter is that neither Kerry Eleveld, nor Autumn Sandeen, have addressed the main question, which is, “Why did ENDA die?” All we have to go on is this suggestion that “we need to talk about this”, but without anyone having the actual courage to state exactly what they think the problem is, other than myself and various others, like Deena, speculating in the comments sections on the idea that it is, in fact, the “penises in women’s showers” issue that is at the heart of the mystery. How are we supposed to address the issue when we don’t know what the real issue is?
Personally, as I’ve indicated, commenting on Kerry Eleveld article, I think that this is the issue, but we still have no further clarification or confirmation from anyone in a position to actually know (that is, Inside the Beltway), so I’m going with what looks to me to be the obvious answer, based on what we can all read between the lines, given the dearth of past reportage on ENDA. Unfortunately, I don’t see where anyone other than me is tackling this issue head-on with concrete recommendations on how to solve this (already-solved) issue, and this, in my not-so-humble opinion, is the real “Pink Gorilla”: Nobody seems to have the courage to point out that there really is, in the end, no Pink Gorilla.
As I pointed out in my comments on the other article, “penises in women’s showers” has never been shown to be a problem, in reality, in the 35+ year history of laws in this country guaranteeing the equal protection of the rights of gender variant people. There has never been a single reported instance of a trans person acting as an aggressor in a public restroom, locker room, shower facility, dressing room, or any other such sex-segregated space.
Make no mistake, this is not, as is frequently suggested, a restroom issue, per se. Even most of the opponents of trans-inclusive public accommodations legislation understand that the issue is really about spaces such as locker rooms and showers, that is to say, spaces where semi-public nudity is practically unavoidable.
For this reason, every such law that has been passed of which I am aware specifically makes an exception for such spaces, and simultaneously avoids creating a “separate but equal” standard by mandating that appropriate facilities must be provided for all people, regardless of gender identity, expression, appearance, or behavior. At least a good number of the statutes I have researched even specifically state that they do not necessarily even create a requirement for establishments to retrofit their facilities to comply (that particular position is an idea which I obviously disagree, as you can see from my comments relating to comparison to the Americans With Disabilities Act)!
In fact, there are indications that this was exactly the compromise reached in the “finalized” version of ENDA in 2010, before it mysteriously evaporated. And if that is the case, all we are left with is Rep. Frank’s suggestion that fears of a Republican motion to recommit based on fears of situations such as an elementary school teacher transitioning mid-year stifled the bill, a notion refuted by admissions from Mr. Sanchez, and which ultimately, are likely to have been easily countered, or even incorporated.
I find it disappointing, and somewhat indicative, that none of my posts on this issue have been substantively refuted, or really, even engaged in any way.
Let’s stop talking about talking about talking about it, and actually state our individual positions on this matter. It is likely that doing so will cause some rancor. There are well-known differences in the LGBT community, even within just the trans part of the community on who needs to be, or should be, protected. None of us are ever going to come to a conclusion about this unless we state definitively, exactly what our personal positions are and back those positions up with solid reasoning, evidence, and/or solutions.
The problem, as I have pointed out many times over, has already been solved, and all this infighting serves only to encourage fallacious beliefs about the nature of the problem. There is no need for The Umbrella Wars.

Careful now…

But you know, stuff like Barney Frank and other gay men are proje[c]ting their bathroom issues onto to trans women really takes the fucking cake.

First, I don’t think gay men in general have “bathroom issues” regarding trans women, do they? Second, Barney Frank is expressing what the overwhelming majority of his constituency believes, what the overwhelming majority of society believes. The inability of many people who post here to recognize and respond appropriately (=in a way which advances their political aims) to this fact ensures that Frank will continue to be a whipping boy in these discussions. But it won’t change the reality of the situation in society at large.

I mean that in the sensethat a couple of commenters have hypothesized that gay men have really projected their own bathroom activities and voyuerism onto transwomen…pointing, for example, to George Michael as an example.
Or, in other words, Frank is still treating transwomen as if they are men.
I actually agree with the entirety of your post.

Wonderful observations, every one of themAnd I agree.  I’d also add that another facet of the problem is one of longevity.  Similar to the “stages of coming out” from a while back, there are readily identifiable, almost-cliche stages that many TG and especially TS people go through.  Collectively known as, ‘transition’.  Not everyone has to do each and every step and everyone does them somewhat differently.  But it still remains that activism is largely internally motivated and many TS (and TG) people drift away from that stage once they become more comfortable with themselves and their lives.  Due to this and simply raw numbers, there isn’t a large pool from which leaders might emerge.  Ones that do must have either a pre-existing comfortable amount of resources and privilege (which leads to the current problem with our representation) or a burning fire in the their belly (which means they typically can make a big difference on a small or local scale but have little means of making much change on a more global level).  Neither has much chance of solving the problem in it’s entirety.
The points you bring up regarding leaders is the crux of our problem, but especially, for the current adult generation.  Boomers and to a lesser degree Gen-X people grew up expecting leaders.  Gen-Y to an even lesser degree.  Those now hitting adulthood may surprise us.  Many of the current TS/TG crowd that are older are blind to the power of self-organizing systems.  Ours is a case where the power of each individual can easily be aggregated and put to good with only a nudge of organization, each time it’s needed, rather than depending upon someone who has been delegated either by vote or dollar.  Ours is a small world with few degrees of separation and news (or direction) can be disseminated quickly and effectively.

Ah, I totally misunderstood you.Thanks for the clarification.

Yes.That was my whole problem with Eleveld’s piece.
First of all, why was marriage equality even brought up? There was no federal marriage equality or even a federal civil unions bill on the table in the 111th Congress and DOMA repeal wasn’t going anywhere.
All of the federal issues concerning marriage equality are in the courts. So why would she even bring it up much less juxtapose it with the failure to get ENDA through?
Second, I just flat out don’t believe that Eleveld knows nothing about the failure of ENDA in Congress.
So yes, her piece didn’t read to me as being all that thoughtful at all (in spite of Pam saying so) it really read like a passive aggressive and transphobic hit piece.
If nothing else, she could have reviewed and summarized all of the various statements made that she knew of prior to the ENDA silence.

Cis isn’t crap take a science course someday“When I’m beaten up by thugs for being gay do I bleed differently than you do?
I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts you believe that I do.”  
I don’t even know what you are talking about or how you came to this conclusion.

Stand down, please!You are of course, correct.  I meant that from a point of view not well enough stated.  My point is that even if we could get certain people who’ve maneuvered themselves into positions of power that they too qualify, they won’t see that they are also targets of that hatred.  Too many people love them, after all!  Even if they are technically, you know, similar to us, they aren’t as offensive as we are.  Unequal privilege tends to do that, create an us-vs-them structure on both sides, and it can only do harm in the end.
Leaves us two choices:  Convince those who claim to represent us that they are indeed as oppressed as the rest of us (unlikely and in fact, at least partially untrue) or find ways to disengage from them and be sure the those on the outside are aware that those groups or people do not in fact represent us.

I came to that conclusionbecause I’m being lectured in here about how “privileged” I’m supposed to be — being a gay male and all.  

“Marraige Equality” was brought up because “Marriage Equality” and the repeal of DADT have been THE dominant LBGT issues in the news of late. They have so hogged the spotlight as to prevent any discussion of ENDA at all.
As for that discussion in here it seems that many of our trans posters are as obsessed with bathrooms as standard-issue homophobes.
Speaking entirely for myself as a gay male (turning 64 on Friday) I have no problem with anyone using any bathroom.
Is that OK?
Am I allowed to say that?
Or do I have to ask permission from my “betters” before I do?  

Nicely explainedI wasn’t and would not argue for a single bill.  Far too easy for things to be added and subtracted or modified.  Too much horsetrading without the transparency of smaller, single purpose bills.  That’s the wrong place for bargaining, and with the wrong people.  We should be making deals with each other not our oppressors.  But to do so we all need seats at the table and not be represented by proxies that have their own priories.

What’s with the scare quotes?Do you deny that male privilege, white privilege or cisgender privilege, etc., exist and that people benefit from that?

“As for that discussion in here it seems that many of our trans posters are as obsessed with bathrooms as standard-issue homophobes. “Because this is what is ALWAYS being used to other us, to demonize us, and to make our identities illegitimate.  When gay men and women were considered to be mentally disturbed back in the 50s and 60s did they just lie down and let people lie and denigrate them or did they push back?  Why shouldn’t trans people do they same?

You’re going to have to be more specificI’m a black gay male. To what degree am I “privileged”?

You’re also a published author, Davidplenty of class privilege there (granted, you may or may not make much money but class is not simply a function of how much money you have).
And you’re also a man. Male privilege applies there. Shirley Chisholm could have informed you of that.
And…yes, male privilege exists within the LGBT communities. After all, that’s what all the arguments about “heteronormativity” are about.

And after the (legislative) repeal of DADTLGBT spokespeople (at least the ones that are recognized in the MSM) were’t saying that ENDA was the next item on the list.
They were all talking about marriage.  

Yes and that’s precisely the problemMarraige is an important issue. But there’s not much used to being married when you can get fired from your job and/or deprived of a place to live

Describing the Pink Gorillagemma, I use the Pink Gorilla as all the myths, fears and reactionary stumbling blocks preventing civil rights for “gender identity”. Perhaps we should list those and focus the light of truth on each one. Maybe in that way a tiny bit of progress can be made on this issue. Shrink the phobias down from a monstrous dreaded nightmare to a non threatening fuzzy toy.
Here are just a few of the myths…..
Myth – Businesses might have to hire obvious “men in dresses” or face lawsuits. Observation, employees want to be comfortable at work and that would include avoiding behavior that is outrageous.
Myth – The rest of the staff of a company can’t handle an employee who is “different”. Observation, that is rather insulting to the rest of the staff.
Myth – Customers might be lost. Observation, this fear has existed in every previous civil rights legislation. It is disguised prejudice displaced to the customer base.
Myth – The children will be harmed. Observation, this one includes everything from classroom fears to playground fears and many more. The reality is that little children grow up quickly to become adults and education equips them to live well.
These are just a few of the Pink Gorilla’s attributes.

And of course, many of those spokespeoplea) aren’t concerned about their own employment
b) live in states and municipalities where they already have employment protections (and for that matter so do I).

On the subject of employment protections…I, too, live in a state with employment protections, the State of New Jersey, which also offers comprehensive protections for the equal right of gender variant people.
Unfortunately, those protections haven’t in in place for very long, nor have they in most jurisdictions where there are also in place.
A few weeks ago, I applied for a job for which I have a stellar resume, performing technical support for am Internet server hosting company where I would not be in public view, in in-person contact with customers, and where the majority of interaction would occur via email. So good is my resumé, in fact, that the very next business day, I was requested by the company to interview. The interview went very well, as far as I could tell, and I even discussed with the Vice President who interviewed me the fact that the company was having difficulty attracting applicants due to their semi-rural location. There as no apparent reaction to my obvious (to me, anyway) trans status, and no indication that the interviewer was simply trying to get me out the door as soon as possible. I met the CEO of the company, on whose face I caught a slight reaction.
I didn’t get the job. Was it because I’m trans, or a trans woman of color, perhaps? It’s entirely likely, but there are also any number of other reasons why they may have chosen to hire another candidate.The bottom line, though, is that passage of NJ’s amended Law Against Discrimination in 2006 didn’t magically change the public’s perception of trans people overnight. The fact is, it may indeed have been because I’m trans, but neither you nor I will ever know the truth of it.
This is the kind of “incremental progress” that is needed, the kind that gradually changes society until being trans is no more remarkable than being any other person, but unfortunately, as has been demonstrated in every other battle of civil rights and equality, this kind of incremental progress cannot happen until we make a forceful statement that discrimination of gender variant people will not be tolerated.
Yes, the law itself changes little, but the law is the thing that starts the ball rolling. It’s never happened any other way.

Yep.

So how do I “level the playing field”?Slit my wrists or take the gas pipe? Clearly my existence isn’t to be tolerated.  

Anger is the problem(I apologize in advance for the length of this, and I’ve sat on it for a while hesitant to post it because of it’s length.  Skip it if the bulk seems intimidating.)
What separates me from many if not most others working in trans-activist causes is that I don’t approach the LGB community with a sense of entitlement.  I don’t simply assume that we deserve to be included in their cause, represented by their organizations, and tied in with any progress we make.  When things like the events laid out in Autumn’s massive rehash occur and others are reacting with utter outrage over the indignity of being left out, my reaction is more along the lines of, “OK, that didn’t work.  Now what do we try?”  I do get upset at having been told they will support us and then not doing so, but I am generally more pleasantly surprised when support happens then upset when it does not.
I’ve received a fair amount of resentment from people over my lack of resentment, and even some outrage over my lack of outrage.  However, the negative reaction I’ve received from the trans community over a lack of anger directed at the LGB and HRC has been small potatoes compared to the negative reaction I’ve received from the trans community for trying to make progress at all.  I’ve seen more hostile reaction from transfolk who don’t want there to be any political activity than I’ve seen from people who demand that they be supported by the LGB community and felt they didn’t get it.  I’ve said it many times, I’m the most hated transsexual in Arizona.
We are still crawling out of the Age of Stealth, and there is still a fairly large segment of the trans community who believe that the goal of transition is to hide.  They see political activity on behalf of trans people as both a peeling away of the social camouflage that allowes them to hide, and something of a capitulation of their dream of being true and whole to the sex they have always felt they were and wanted to be.  To win protections for trans-people in their minds translates into saying that trans-people is all they will ever be, and they have a very hard time stomaching that idea.  Any attempt at progress within the trans community by the trans community starts a civil war among members of the trans community.
I point that out to illustrate our problem.  We are too small, too poor, and too powerless to make progress on our own.  We have too many people personally invested in the old stealth model opposed to progress being made who would rather commit their time and energy fighting to stop those trying to make progress.  Lastly, we are as a group generally too narcissistic to ever work collectively, and even among those who want to see progress happen, they are typically unwilling to even lift a finger to help on an effort they don’t agree with 100%.  We cannot make progress on our own.  Without the assistance of other communities and compassion of other people, we’re dead in the water and stuck in lives of marginalization in perpetuity.
Prejudice, discrimination, and the Politics of Hate are universal concepts affecting many peoples across the world and throughout history.  It is a natural tendency of the dark side of human nature.  In a truly ideal world, such things wouldn’t exist.  In a semi-ideal world, we would fight discrimination as a principle, and fight it universally and uniformly for all people impacted by it.  However, in the real world it never seems to work that way.  People will often fight for their own rights, but they will also surprisingly often refuse to fight for their own rights.  People will sometimes fight for the rights of others, but not so much.  You can’t count on people to stand up for their own rights, and you should never assume others will stand up for your rights.  If you want your rights won, you need to be personally, actively involved in fighting to win them.  If you need others to help you win your rights, you need to be personally, actively engaged with them, working with them, helping them with their struggles, and be seen as a true partner in all that they do so that they will feel the kinship with your struggle and bring you along with them.
We in the trans community can’t go it alone.  We need the support of other communities.  Far and away the most obvious partner for us in this struggle is the gay and lesbian community, who face very similar discrimination to us, who are often conflated with us in the minds of the majority, and who are both further along than us but still struggling for full equality.  The wise tack is to work with them, help them in what they do, make their struggles ours, and be there, on their side and at their side in all that they do so that they will know that we are a partner worthy of inclusion as they make progress.
Where are we in our history of progress toward equal rights and protections from discrimination for the trans community?  On the hundred point scale of 1864 to 1964, from legal slavery to the 1964 Civil Rights Act, where do things stand?  Right about now, the LGB community is probably someplace in the late 1950′s to early 1960′s, with organized protests, changing cultural attitudes, and real progress on effective legislation.  If I had to guess, I would say that the trans community is someplace around the 1920′s, where there are still black-face minstrel shows around, but they are starting to receive criticism and becoming déclassé.  In other words, the trans community lags behind the LGB by a good 30 to 40 years.
A problem occurs when people in the trans community see that support from the LGB community as an entitlement.  You don’t work too hard to get what you feel you are entitled to.  Entitlement translates into low activity.  Not getting what you feel you are entitled to elicits a rage response.  You become furious at the people you feel were supposed to fulfill your entitlement.  You lash out at them, insult and belittle them.  You destroy your relationship with them.  If the person at whom you are angry doesn’t agree to your sense of entitlement, you appear ranting, irrational, and unreasonable.  A transgender attitude of entitlement toward the LGB communities produces all the wrong behaviors if we want to be included in their struggle.  It creates inactivity where we need activity.  It creates hostility where we need cooperation.  It destroys relationships with most important partners we have in our pursuit of equality.  It makes us blame others when things don’t go our way instead of allowing us to reflect on how we could have done things better.
Most everything else I see in Autumn’s essay is just more transsexual narcissistic rage over not having a false sense of entitlement fulfilled.  The thing that holds us back as a community more than anything else is narcissism.    It keeps people from getting involved.  It causes endless infighting.  It causes people to simply expect others to carry on the fight for them.  It causes them to react in temper tantrums when they don’t get their way.  It leads them to destroy vital relationships instead of working to build them up.  It obstructs serious considerations of options.  It makes virtually impossible for us to consider lessons learned.  It makes it impossible for us to work collectively as a group, and nearly impossible for us to work productively with other communities.
Even though we are in the helpless position, even though we have the farthest to go to overcome discrimination, even though we are virtually completely dependent on other people for our social advancement, and even though we are incapable of pulling ourselves up by our own bootstraps our attitude toward the LGB community is one of, “You owe us.”  ”You should work to win our rights.  You should make our cause your cause.  You should treat us as equals or superiors.  You shouldn’t expect us to pitch in and help.  You should do it all for us.  We should be allowed to stay in hiding or just enjoying our new lives in our new genders, and we shouldn’t have to invest our time, effort, or money in the cause.  You should do it all for us.”  By what right do we make these demands?  How would we respond if some other marginalized group started making the same demands of us?
Some might say that Autumn is in actuality using anger as a tool to get the LGB to listen to us and be responsive to our needs and expectations.  Anger can have that effect, for a while.  It can be a spell in your bag of tricks, but it is of very limited utility.  When the person at whom you are angry agrees with your reasons for being angry, they will often respond favorably if you don’t piss them off too much.  When they don’t agree, they might respond your way if it gets you to shut up, but only for a little while and it’s not sincere in nature.  If all they ever see from you is anger, then you’re just a raving lunatic and an unreasonable character they can’t deal with.  Anger must only be used sparingly before it starts become a destructive force.  If all this anger is an attempt to win people over to helping us, it’s going to backfire horribly.
Narcissism is a result of a poor parental support causing someone to become emotionally stunted at an early age.  In that, your metaphor of the 800 lb elephant is better than even you realize.  The 800 lb elephant is a juvenile.  A child.  Physically, mentally, and emotionally immature.  Irresponsible, dependent on its parents, unable to take care of itself, and given to tantrums and unreasonable demands.  Where you see us as the elephant remembering past offenses, any outside observer would see an impudent child demanding the lion’s share and holding a grudge when he doesn’t get what he wants.  The 800-pound Transgender Elephant isn’t the small elephant who remembers, but rather the emotionally immature elephant who holds a grudge over not getting what it was never entitled to in the first place.  The world owes us, and we’re going to hold a grudge against anyone who doesn’t come through for us.
Where your mixed metaphor meanders amiss is in the meanings of the metaphors morphed.  ”The 800 lb gorilla” is a force you cannot argue with and gets his way through brute strength.  ”The elephant in the room” is the wildly conspicuous presence that no one is willing to talk about.  Your mixed metaphor suggest a highly conspicuous, powerful force that gets its way through brute strength but everyone is afraid to talk about.  Kind of like the oppressive government in Orwell’s “1984″.  We are nothing like this.  We are weak, ineffectual, uninvolved, and plagued by infighting.  We are the antithesis of conspicuity.  We are the largely invisible community-in-hiding that comes up in conversation fairly often, but more as the subject of myth than fact.  Our problem is that we don’t try to be seen.  We don’t get involved.  Not enough of the LGB community is familiar and comfortable enough with us for us to be considered their inseparable partners in our shared struggle.  90% of show business is showing up, and we don’t show up.  We are in reality a weak, hidden, brooding, sniping, complaining, powerless minority that people talk about but are afraid to talk to.
If we want to partake of the fruits of their labor, we have to earn our place at their table.  We have to be active partners in their pursuit of equality.  We have to support them at every turn.  If you want someone to bring you along, you must first be someone they want to have around.  First you be a good neighbor and good friend, and then you hope your neighbors are good to you in return.  Only then do we prevail upon that relationship and ask them to support our rights as well.  If they say no, then we did something wrong.  Either we didn’t work hard enough, didn’t do the right things, or they just weren’t the group we should have been hitching our wagon to in the first place.  We need to pause, reflect, and ask, “What have we learned?  What can we do different?”
You wanted frank discussion Autumn.  You wanted a discussion of why there is so much anger and defensiveness.  You are an example of the problem more than a victim of it.  Look to yourself.  You are being a part of the problem, not a part of the solution.  You say the LGB community has to address your anger as if you are entitled to your anger, but it’s you who have to address your anger.  It’s attitudes like you’ve expressed in your essay that drags us down and risks losing everything.  You are alienating our best hope.  There’s a notable lack of introspection in your essay.  All I see is blame for other people not coming to our rescue and anger over things not being given to us without commensurate contribution in return.  There’s no questioning, “What could we have done different?  What have we learned?  How could we have produced a better response from our most important allies?”  If what we did didn’t work, then we have to face the music and seriously ask why it didn’t work.  It is only when we as a community have the courage and the maturity to ask these questions of ourselves that we can hope to make true progress.

Thanks azerica — that was an extremely useful postYour mention that  

“there is still a fairly large segment of the trans community who believe that the goal of transition is to hide”

is something that has never occurred to me. I look forward to learning more about trans lives along this line. For all the trans individuals I’ve ever come in contact with haven’t been hiding in any way (eg. Kate Borenstein, Alexis Arquette, Chaz Bono.)

I had that discussion with Cecilia Chung.I said, describing the average shelf life of a T activist, as “the three to five year activist.” She described the self life of a T activist as “the four year activist.”
My comment is that those who’ve transitioned often are “it’s all about me” activists, having entered into activisim from a perspective of going from one social strata in western society to a much lower social strata. It’s not about the trans people who come after them at all; it’s not about a collective “us.”.
The other main issue is how much crap trans people in the front of the room — leadership, so to speak — take from other trans people, religious right operatives, and some broader LGBT community folk. To be a transgender person and a public advocate on transgender issues it to put a virtual target on your back for verbal and written abuse.
And if, like me, you specifically make a point of trying not claiming to speak on behalf of all of transgender community, then one is accused by other transgender community members of being self-agrandizing and too self-referential.
Personally, I’ve been called a house tranny, transgender tom, transvestite, transgenderist, tranny, it, that thing, he/she, shim, impersonator, Mr. Sandeen, “Autumn” Sandeen, LGB apologist blogger, egomanaical, he, him, the lead exhibit in the Virginia Prince Hall of Anachronisms, the gentleman who served 20 years in Navy and then decided he didn’t want to be a gentleman any longer, a Dog in the Manger…okay, I could go on a long time here on what I’ve been called. The point here is though that if you become a visible member of the transgender community, you are going to get called a lot of names — many of those names by your own transgender and/or transsexual peers. That’s one of the reasons we don’t have much in the way of visible leadership — it’s brutal out there.  

Why it’s time to cut the T from LGBT ….from what I’ve been reading overall here on this posting my commentary is right on point ….
http://focusontherainbowopine….

Thanks AzericaErasing the fact that trans people have been part – active, useful, visible parts of the GLB both pre and post transition since the beginning does lots to move things forward.
So your solution is to forget the past, work some more on GLB stuff and hope that they graciously toss us a bone?
How about this – I’m straight. My activism is with the men who are commonly called “chasers”. These are generally hetero – identified men who are so pained about their attractions to trans women. These guys are partly afraid of the stigma attached to them being perceived as “gay” and this pains them and makes them hide and ultimately it negatively affects the relationships they have with trans women.
We could form a logical group with members of the dominant social structure (straight cis men) who actually share directly linked issues with us. A group who would largely benefit from trans-specific activism and would be less likely to use trans-protections as a tool for something else.
I don’t think the trans community is as powerless or as pathetic as you claim. I think we have options and the above is just one of many.

You missed my pointI very clearly said that we should not forget the past.  I’m saying that viewing the past from a perspective of entitlement is a false and distorted perspective that produces counterproductive conclusions.  I say we carefully examine the past from the perspective that it is primarily our responsibility as the weaker community, much further behind in our progress, and innately crippled by our own failings, to win the support of the LGB community.  We need to look at the past with the inquiry of what worked for us, what didn’t work for us, how could we have done things better in the past, and how can we do things better in the future.  Autumn is advocating looking back in anger.  That gets you nowhere.
Further, I don’t suggest hoping they graciously toss us a bone.  I’m saying they will give you a better seat at the table if you’re their friend they can always count on than they will if you’re their bitchy neighbor always complaining about the loud music.  We have been more the latter than the former.
Have we been a part – active, useful, visible parts, since the beginning?  Not in my experience.  I practice everything I preach here.  I’ve made myself a very active, involved, visible part of the gay and lesbian communities here in my city.  I am right there with them in everything they do.  I support them 100% in their causes, and I am proud to do so.  The cause of the gay and lesbian community is absolutely just.  I am amazed how many gay and lesbian people I’ve met for whom I was the first transsexual they’ve met.  You would point to someone like myself as proof that we are active and involved, and I would point to the fact that I’m the only one active and involved that we haven’t been active enough.  I beg other members of the trans community to turn out to important LGB events, and if I’m doing really well, I might get two.  That has to change.

No I get your point completelyMore important, there are aspects of this story — made plain in your post — that need to be brought to the fore more fully.  

I’m glad that the tone of this threadhas taken the turn that it has.
Just based on personal experiences, it is really easy in times of duress and frustration to lash out and blame people; certainly, as a gay black man, I witnessed (and continur to witness) so much of this in terms of group dynamics (i.e. black people are too homophobic, white gays say that because their too racist, etc., etc.)
And…sure there is almost always some truth in much of what people say.
I remember an old episode of Dallas-it was the “who shot J.R.” season, when Sue Ellen was sitting in her psychiatrist’s office rattling off the list of J.R.’s sins and how many different ways that he harmed her (and baby, that was a long list.)
Her psychatrist sat there patiently and listened to her and the suddenly she stopped talking.
She said to her doctor, “You don’t think that J.R. is the cause of my problems, you think that I’m the cause of my problems, don’t you?”
Her doctor responded, “It doesn’t matter what the cause of your problems is, you’re the one with the problem.”
It’s been 21 years (or something like that) since that episode and I remembewr it as it was yesterday.
I guess that it’s very easy and somewhat justified for trans folk to blame LGBs. Part of the reason for this latest episode is Kerry Eleveld’s own lackluster report but if she had provided the in depth details of the talks between LGB(T?) groups and Congresscritters and it confirmed everything that we’ve been only guessing at, would it have made any difference as far as the conversation that obviously needs to happen?
I don’t think that’s really for me to answer.
What I do see is that the exact same problems and issues continue to be brought to the table and, at some point, as a community, T’s really do have to shit or get off of the pot (difficult as that is given the day-to-day momemt-by-moment life and death circumstances under which many in the T community live.)
In an activist sense, I think that some T’s are in a position that many of those that head of LGB(T) groups are not; you have little or nothing to lose (I don’t know if that came out right, but I hope that T’s understand what I meant by that). Many LGB activists act as if they have something to lose and, therefore, they take very tepid approaches to equality (Chris Barron seemed to have forgotten that he had something to lose in the moment that he called Cleta Mitchell a “nasty bigot” and maybe he did have something to lose).
So…I’m starting to babble but it’s better that all of this is getting out now.

I understandwhat you are saying, I’m also saying we do have options. Something we need to ask is if the association with the GLB is really working out for us. We need to assess what we trade for the association vs. what we have gained thus far. If we have lost more than we gained, is it still worth it to be anything more than supporters for a just cause?
I used to be an active vocal supporter of the LGB and have spoken often about trans inclusion – often as the only trans voice in a group that wanted trans people out. I spent as much time and energy justifying my place in the movement as I did actually working on issues.
Also, anger – particularly anger that can be backed up with verifiable historical incidents shouldn’t be dismissed as entitlement. People in NY weren’t just sitting back all woodworked expecting the GLB to pass an inclusive ENDA. They lobbied, they educated, they were dropped at the last minute without anyone telling them they were being discussed. The guy who headed that… went on to head a national organization. Remembering that and wondering what the current incarnation of that group is willing to do is… self preservation, not complaining about the stereo.
I’m good working with the GLB, as I have in the two states I’ve called home. I’m good staffing the phone, working to sell tickets at Pride, being a face in the crowd a a protest – whatever. What I need to continue is a show of good faith (and back filling legislation that was intentionally left out is a small start) and an actual reason to trust.
Am I being out of line? Am I being unrealistic?

A reasonable question to ask

Something we need to ask is if the association with the GLB is really working out for us.

It is reasonable to ask that question.  In fact, that’s really the fundamental question we need to ask.  The question can be viewed from many different perspectives and the answer won’t be black or white, works or doesn’t.  If the association isn’t working for us, then next question is if we could do something different to make it work or at least work better.  It’s entirely possible that we may reach a conclusion that there is no means within our power to make it work acceptably.  We may also come to the conclusion that with just a few changes in our approach and commitment, it can blossom into a beautiful mutually beneficial relationship.
In asking such questions, it’s also important to consider what other options are available to us.  I can tell you that there are no perfect solutions and no option should be viewed in a vacuum.  In any examination of our options and relationships we need to consider what if any other options exist.  That’s why I spent a lot of column space discussion the seemingly insurmountable challenges of going it alone at this point in our history.  Even if the relationship is not ideal, it may be the best thing we have going, and we need to work harder to make it work.  All relationships are hard, and the closer you are to each other the harder it is.  I think this is a relationship worth working on.

Understoodbut do any and I mean any T’s have good working experiences with LGB’s groups and heads?
It just seems as if all that trans folk focus on is the negative.
For example, what would be the trans POV of Geoff Kors tenure at EQCA? Or Rick Garcia’s at Equality Illinois? Or, as was mentioned above, New Jersey? or any of the other states that have fully inclusive human rights laws? Do you mean mean to tell me that the experiences of trans folks working in those states are as bitter as those that live in, say, New York, Massachusetts and Maryland?

As I asked belowis it that all (or none) of trans relationships with the LGB completely dysfunctional or are only some of the relationships dysfunctional?

Why then……did Kerry not do a single Trans-specific article during her tenure at The Advocate, or report on your presence within the WH protests? She would have known that would have helped the gender identity ban repeal effort a lot.
I like Kerry a lot too, though I’m just curious.  DM me the answer via Twitter if u want.

PersonallyMy state group has had some real peaks and valleys. The quotes from earlier came largely from the heads past and (at the time) present of the biggest LGBT group in the state. I was born, and currently live, in Ohio – a state that will not change my birth certificate in any way.
There has never been any attempt after (I think) the mid-70′s to fix this. There has actually been lots of reluctance to even bring it up to the legislature. Lots of personal and political disappointments and frustrations here.
However, the last two years the city passed an inclusive job/housing/accommodations law with lots of work from both the GLB and T groups. We also recently got a policy change through the Governor that allows trans people to correct the sex marker as well as name on state issued IDs. This was done mostly through TransOhio and other groups, but the state GLBT group added their weight and voices to support it and used their influence to open some doors to get the message heard.
There has been a few other legal wins that required the cooperation of all parts of the community, and I think some solid relationship are starting to form.

I have very good experiencesI work with and in the leadership of what are primarily LGB organizations all the time.  I’m in the Steering and Executive committees of Human and Equal Rights Organizers (HERO), a Phoenix based LGBT activist organization.  I am the current chair of Arizona Stonewall Democrats.  I participate regularly on the Phoenix Police LGBT Citizen’s Advisory Board.  I have been a participant in more GetEqual actions than Autumn has.  Most of my friends are in the gay and lesbian community, and it is where I spend most of my non-working, waking hours.  I’m not trying to blow my own horn in all this, but just illustrating that members of the trans community can participate equally and fully, shoulder to shoulder, with the LGB community if they just approach it with a positive spirit of cooperation.  It’s not a complicated formula.

HaNoticed absentthoughtlord remains absentee regarding responding to your query.
Anyone who doesn’t recognize that gender segregation is the really bad kind of bad needs their clock cleaned.
As far as I’m concerned, the gender designation on a public restroom is just a suggestion.  And employers who have employees complaining about transgender co-workers can tell the complainers to use the onesee in the basement of the building across campus, instead of inconveniencing the transgender employee.  
The end.

Any good relationships?The question was asked if there have been any good relationships? Of course.
I was invited to join the Equality Maryland board in 2004 by Dan Furmansky, a true LGBT hero in my book, as committed to trans and gender-non-conforming rights as any trans person. I sat on the board and then as VP for seven years, the only trans person to show up for years. I agree with azerica, though I paraphrase, that 90% of life is just showing up. 95% of politics is just showing up. There are simply not enough of us who are out (yes, if you use the expansive umbrella and include the gender non-conforming there are more of us than the LGB community) to have made the difference the gay community has made over the past 40 years.
When I left Equality Maryland four months ago it wasn’t because of the staff, but because of the board and the gay political leadership, for whom it was all marriage, all the time. The other trans woman followed closely after, disappointed because of things she had heard from gay leaders.
Dan’s Equality Maryland managed to get a trans hate crimes bill passed in 2005 and signed by a Republican Governor over the opposition of a leading gay delegate. Now that was leadership!
So, yes, it does happen. Mara Keisling of NCTE has wonderful relationships with the national gay leadership, and she’s not afraid to criticize them publicly when they fail to live up to their own code. She takes responsibility when she and her organization have not achieved their goals. I wish the other national leaders were willing to do the same, to be held accountable, for their organizations’ accomplishments and failures.
A sad fact is that only 3% of LGBT spending in any given year is dedicated to trans issues. But until we have trans billionaires willing to fund the movement, we will have to depend on our relationships with others to help make a real difference. And we need to show up.

If I might speak to a few aspects…
There’s a whole lot more that was going on external to the APA, but the basic idea was that a deviant desire (diagnosis of homosexuality) was merely re-described as deviant identity (diagnosis of GID).  The amazing thing was how little difference it made to the so-called “treatment programs” run by many of the big names at the APA at the time.   “Pre-gay children” became, “pre-transsexal children” based on toy and play preferences.  ”gay reparative therapy” became, “transsexual reparative therapy” and so on…for many people who called themselves therapists, psychologists or psychiatrists, delisting merely changed the insurance code.
In 1973 gays made a big, big push to be delisted as a disorder, including directly picketing the APA.  The result was a shift to GID due to bigotry, homo/trans phobia and simply, greed.  That was a lot of clients to lose, a lot of “brilliant” careers to end based on a delisting and a lot of papers that could be resubmitted to journals with just a little editing of the underlying theory.  By the DSM-IV(TR?) GID was suddenly, clearly a disorder and there was no mention of homosexuality.  GID in children was included in the 1980 DSM-III, btw; the first edition after the between-releases removal of homosexuality (technically in ’74, I think)
Regarding whether it’s a medical issue or one best handled by the APA:
Psychs have been trying to “cure” transsexuality since the 1950′s.  Success rate=zero
Endocrinologists and surgeons have been trying to “cure” transsexuals since the 1950′s.  Success rate= somewhere between 100k and 200k?
Psychs are still in the loop ostensibly to protect surgeons from lawsuits by those who might “make a mistake” in requesting medical treatment and to provide the all-important insurance code.  It’s interesting to note however, that they have no figures to back that up, a therapist could just as easily be sued and insurance coverage of any sort is not guaranteed.  AMA codes work just as good as those from the APA and it’d be a lot more reasonable and functional to let a knowledgeable GP manage the whole thing, with referrals to endos, psychs and surgeons as needed.
Homosexuality was eased out of the DSM at the end with an intermediate diagnosis regarding the persons discomfort with being gay (well, technically discomfort with other people’s discomfort…).  Transsexuality / GID could be treated the same if the AMA were to step up and take ownership of the cure they provide.  

No. They (the APA) did that out of greed.Too many careers, too many papers and studies and treatment programs to simply let a good diagnosis of “disorder” go to waste.  As I mentioned above somewhere, they replaced “disorder of desire” with “disorder of identity”.
It was about the big names in the APA.  It was about insurance money and other treatment payments.  It was about book deals, and the nascent Focus on the Family (funny how many of the names overlap)…
In short, it was about the APA members, not their clients.  There’s a great quote somewhere about how listings in the DSM are based largely on social norms, not personal functionality.

The irony, of course is that it only goes so farcis LBG privilege in some situations might mean that you get beat to a pulp quicker, so you suffer less than the trans LGB person the bigoted religiosos caught you with as the two of you walked from the bar to your car…

Institutional Relationshipsare the one’s that are dysfunctional.

Oh, I’m sure there are a few out thereI’ve even heard of some that will fight for individual gays and lesbians (fine…and bis, too) they’ve never met and never will, just to right an injustice.  Because it’s the right thing to do.  
And there are plenty of us, half maybe, that exist in both worlds.  If I were to focus only on trans equality, what would that say to how I value my sexuality or that of my wife, her identity and our relationship?  Heck, if I were to focus only on trans equality, what would that say about me as a human being when (believe it or not) there are people even worse off than transsexuals and transgender people in America?
But I have to pick my battles, too.  Right now there are enough gays and lesbians (and bis) that live in a liberal enough area and blend well enough that they own a home and have two good jobs.  And like anyone else, once they gain enough they start worrying about losing what they have and words like assimilation start getting whispered.  And while they are fighting for marriage or when they subsume trans equality, well it sort of puts a glaring spotlight on the fact that most trans people don’t have a job or a house.  Or even a place to pee.

One tiny little quibble…

We are still crawling out of the Age of Stealth, and there is still a fairly large segment of the trans community who believe that the goal of transition is to hide.  They see political activity on behalf of trans people as both a peeling away of the social camouflage that allowes them to hide, and something of a capitulation of their dream of being true and whole to the sex they have always felt they were and wanted to be.  To win protections for trans-people in their minds translates into saying that trans-people is all they will ever be, and they have a very hard time stomaching that idea.

Azerica, while I feel you had many good points and the last thing to intimidate me is a massive tome, I feel the need to make a point regarding the above quoted paragraph.
Of the transsexuals I’ve known, including my daughter and many of her cohorts, many do not see themselves as existing in Stealth.  However, nor do they see themselves as trans, either.  In the case of trans kids raised by accepting parents, they’re growing up with the luxury of simply being themselves despite having some somatic attributes that may need adjustments later.  If individuals of that flavor of transsexual tell us they do not see themselves as hiding but merely living as themselves, if they choose to simply know themselves as men or women, we must respect that.  It’s at the core of who and what a transsexual is, by definition.  

Why yes.At the SLIGHTEST hint of deviation from Gay Orthodoxy, trans people should be cut loose because after all, it’s not about getting equal rights, it’s about getting wealthy gay male lawyers the ability to get their fucking tax break.

Interesting“cut the T from LGBT”
The list of issues brought up and it is “cut the T…” Not “why the T should go” or “Why the T is angry” … you are saying:
Trans people are pointing out historical and current policies in the GLB that don’t benefit them and have done harm to them… Time to get rid of them.

Heh. Point taken, dyssonanceAlthough I could do a dissertation on my hatred of the concept of “dysfunctional” (related to what and to whom? what counts as “functional”, etc.)
“Institutions” are, by their very nature, conservative. And need to be subverted from time to time.

Chris Barron is NOT an LGBT activistHe’s a KAPO.
What’s funny is that the fascist ‘phobes to whom he caters 24/7 act as if he WERE an activist.  

StealthThat’s my political goal — that today’s and tomorrow’s children get to be themselves from the beginning and this whole issue is an irrelevancy for them. When being trans is just another treatable medical condition and becomes purely personal, and not subject to the whims of fundamentalists and corrupt politicians.
And when everyone gets to express themselves, including their gender presentation, as they choose, with support and without harassment.

CAPAC’s “Welcome Mat”

That wasn’t the point, DavidThe larger point was activists not wanting to rock the boat for fear that they would lose something (connections, influence, etc.)
I agree with you about Barron. However in calling out Miss Cleta, he did, for a split second, act as if he had nothing to lose.
That was my only point.

I lost my entire communityWhen I came out as trans I lost my entire community. I heard similar statements to what you posted (of an F to M variety). The one that hurt me the most was when my spiritual leaders told me that the only reason I wanted to transition was because of internalized misogyny. They told my wife that I would become angry and violent and that there was little hope that our relationship would last. (We are stronger now than we have ever been) Most of my community had unfortunately been feminists of the “Women born women” crowd. Now, if a woman tells me she is a feminist, it takes all of my willpower not to turn and run the other direction.  

Ah, but you’re a special targetYou actually did stuff. Put your life on the line.
They can’t stand that. In order to feel good about themselves and their own comparative inactivity, they have to attack you.
That’s not being fair to themselves – because they haven’t been inactive, they just haven’t risked a fate worse than death. Literally.
It’s all too human, Autumn. You just have to sigh and love them anyway.
Hugs, from your friend through thick and thin, Zoe

It’s worse than that

A sad fact is that only 3% of LGBT spending in any given year is dedicated to trans issues. But until we have trans billionaires willing to fund the movement, we will have to depend on our relationships with others to help make a real difference.

# Respondents were nearly four times more likely to live in extreme poverty, with household income of less than $10,000.
# Respondents were twice as likely to be unemployed compared to the population as a whole. Half of those surveyed reported experiencing harassment or other mistreatment in the workplace, and one in four were fired because of their gender identity or expression.
# While discrimination was pervasive for the entire sample, it was particularly pronounced for people of color. African-American transgender respondents fared far worse than all others in many areas studied.
# Housing discrimination was also common. 19% reported being refused a home or apartment and 11% reported being evicted because of their gender identity or expression. One in five respondents experienced homelessness because of their gender identity or expression.
It’s difficult to make financial contributions when so many of us are trying to live on $10 a day. When getting a minimum-wage job is beyond the wildest dreams of many of us.
No-one who’s GLB has to pay a dollar a day for a gay license; but for just about all of us, we have to pay at least that much for the mones.
And then there’s the $20,000-$120,000 balloon payment for surgery and electrolysis, depending on direction of transition and age we started.
It’s a vicious circle: we can’t afford to blow an entire year’s food budget on a $1000 a plate gala, so we have no voice on the policy making, so we have no money, so can’t afford next year’s shindig, and around it goes.

Let me ask a hypothetical question hereSimply in terms of sheer numbers, I would assume that there are more of the LGB than the T.
I would expect that to be reflected in the leaderships of various boards and the donors and then, of course, one has to account for the truly impoverished circumstances for transfolk.
What would seem to be the …ideal or necessary percentages of time, money, resources, and manpower that LGBT groups give to the T
(That’s not just a question for you ZoeB and, of course, I don’t see that there’s, per se, a right or a wrong answer to the question).

NumbersKevin, I would dispute your numbers.
Today’s best estimates for the prevalence of transsexualism, i.e., people who legally transition from one gender to the other with some sort of medical intervention, is 1:500 – 1:1000.
But once you add in the various “gender outlaws,” and then the male hetero cross-dressers, you’re probably pushing 10% of the population. The problem is that the thrust of the gay rights movement has been towards assimilation — what can be more bourgeois than marriage? –, and the best proponents to a fearful straight population are those who look most like them. I understand this and accept it, and it’s not going to change until the gender non-conformists out there push harder.
I believe, as do many of my gay friends, male and female, that the root of homophobia is misogyny, today most widely expressed by hate directed at the gender non-conforming. The gay rights movement is framing its political activity in terms of the far more palatable “military, motherhood and marriage,” and it’s been working. But an inevitable drawback of that approach is to marginalize those who don’t fit in as well, or those who don’t have the money to play and work their way onto the HRC board. As Zoe points out, it is much more expensive to be trans than gay, and studies have shown that those who fulfill cultural gender stereotypes earn more as well.
So you have a vicious circle, and the only way to break it is to be more assertive than we have been.
To answer your question directly — I think the LGBT movement should be spending at least 20% of its dollars on gender non-conformity. The anti-bullying campaign is a great example of how that can be done, and if we don’t change the culture so that our children are safe, then, as Erica from Arizona points out, our actions degenerate into a narcissism.
Note that GenderPac used to be at the fore of this approach, but has since faded from the scene. There goal was to reach out to the straight, cis-gendered community who, by virtue of numbers alone, have the most at stake with the problems of gender expression.

Don’t ForgetThe untapped, hidden, fearful – yet large, assimilated, and influential cis straight men who are in some way attracted to trans women. Given that their only current places to gather are connected to the sex industry, this makes them an unknown easily dismissed population.
But, taking a cue from the industry – that particular subset is growing and getting mainstreamed. They fear the stigma that is attached to their particular attraction, so limit their exposure and understanding to a largely pornographic sexualized scene.
What I have found though, is that largely they are receptive to understanding the realities of being trans. Moving beyond their fantasy view of trans women and at least in small ways trying to work for a future where they can love/date/hook up with trans women without shame.
One of the limitations thus far in the trans movement is that, unlike gay and lesbian people, we largely date people who do not directly share or understand our marginalization. At worst, it creates a situation where we HAVE to go stealth in order to maintain a relationship.
Part of winning acceptance is showing that we work, live,love just like cis people. It also means that we show that we don’t need to be inappropriate in the ladies room to get a sexual thrill.

Oh, I agreeWe are a diverse community of people with many different attitudes and approaches to transition.  I would hardly want to imply that all transsexuals choose to live stealth.  I am only saying that such people represent a sizeable portion of our population.  How large I can’t tell you because, well, they’re stealth and I can’t see them.  My conjecture is that they are the majority of the transsexual population, but I don’t have evidence to back it up beyond an educated guess.
What I can tell you is that over roughly the last decade we have been moving through a cultural shift in the trans community.  In decades past, stealth was the only model for transition.  It was simply assumed that hiding in plain sight was a fundamental part of transition.  Being seen as trans was considered a failed transition.  The culture of transsexualism all revolved around, “How do we hide?  How do we keep from being read?”
We’re now moving into the new paradigm of living out.  However, paradigm shifts don’t come easy.  There are many people who transitioned in the old stealth model who feel that it is the duty of every transsexual to live as stealth as possible.  Being out as trans elevates public awareness of trans people, which is an anethma to them.  They react with indignation to trans political action, because it elevates our visibility.  In their minds the only way to deal with discrimination is to hide from it, and fighting for political rights is the exact wrong thing to do.
As such, the conflict of Out vs. Stealth, or Activism vs. Hiding is something of a generational conflict.  You should have seen the war that took place in my city in late 2006 through most of 2007 when we tried to engage in public transgender political action.  It was intense.  There were a lot of traspeople incredibly enraged that political action would take place at all.  To this day, there’s a rift between those who oppose any action and those who favor the advance of our rights that divides our trans community in two.  I’ve found more people who are willing to commit time and effort into crushing political action they disagree with than are willing to pitch in and help to move it forward.
That is the conflict I was alluding to in the paragraph you quoted.

And I agree as wellI’ve seen it up close and personal, and have been called the “trannie Gestapo” as a result. I have learned from the experience, and today respect anyone’s desire not to get involved. And just as I have no business telling someone how to live her life, she has no business telling me how to live mine. As long as we keep things civil.
I decided before transition not to exchange one closet for another, but having spent 50 years in that first closet I can understand the fear that public discussion brings to the deeply stealth. That has made me much more sympathetic to their plight.
As for numbers in stealth, there is no hard data, but it wouldn’t be hard to come by if our surgeons made the names of their patients available. That, of course, will never happen

I’ll be fine. =) I do sigh, and I do love them anyway.

I’ve seen too much hate to want to hate, myself, and every time I see it, I say to myself, hate is too great a burden to bear. Somehow we must be able to stand up against our most bitter opponents and say: “We shall match your capacity to inflict suffering by our capacity to endure suffering. We will meet your physical force with soul force. Do to us what you will and we will still love you…. But be assured that we’ll wear you down by our capacity to suffer, and one day we will win our freedom. We will not only win freedom for ourselves; we will appeal to your heart and conscience that we will win you in the process, and our victory will be a double victory.
~Martin Luther King Jr.

And too, I’ll probably put my life on the line in the future for transgender specific, and/or again put my life on the line broader LGBTQ civil rights.
If there’s an opportunity presented to me to put my life on the line for intersex people and/or intersex civil rights issues, I’d probably do that too.
Basially, I consider L, G, B, T, Q, and I people to all be members of my extended community family.

I submit to you that if a man hasn’t discovered something he will die for, he isn’t fit to live.
~Martin Luther King Jr.

Freedom, equality, and justice for those whom I consider my community family are things I’ve discovered I’m willing to die for — and, of course, you were already aware of that. =)
Thank you for your friendship, Zoe. I do cherish it.

Entitlement?It is entitlement to expect the organizations that of their own accord claim to be working for the equal protection of trans rights, who plaster that fact over every website and pubication they produce, the organizations who time and time again come to the entire LGBt community, not just the cis parts of it hat in hand, the organizations who largely have captured all the limited oxygen available in the legislatures of this country, the organizations who time and time again have taken whatever support they can glean from us and then thrown us under the bus yet again? You call that entitlement?

If we want to partake of the fruits of their labor, we have to earn our place at their table.  We have to be active partners in their pursuit of equality.  We have to support them at every turn.  If you want someone to bring you along, you must first be someone they want to have around.  First you be a good neighbor and good friend, and then you hope your neighbors are good to you in return.  Only then do we prevail upon that relationship and ask them to support our rights as well.

Equality is a two-way street, sister. Where is the equivalent responsibility of our cis “good neighbors” in all of this? Why is it that our “good neighbors” don’t have to work equally as hard to get, not to mention deserve, our support?

We are still crawling out of the Age of Stealth, and there is still a fairly large segment of the trans community who believe that the goal of transition is to hide.

A fairly large segment of the trans community? I don’t know which segment of the trans community you hang out in, but in my neighborhood, such people are a small, and diminishing, minority that are viewed as delusional because they cannot face up to the reality of being trans.

If you need others to help you win your rights, you need to be personally, actively engaged with them, working with them, helping them with their struggles, and be seen as a true partner in all that they do so that they will feel the kinship with your struggle and bring you along with them.
…
The wise tack is to work with them, help them in what they do, make their struggles ours, and be there, on their side and at their side in all that they do so that they will know that we are a partner worthy of inclusion as they make progress.

Your “wise tack” is the tactic that the trans community has been following all along, going all the way back to the very foundations of the struggle for the equal protection of the rights of all LGBT people in this country. Trans people were there on the front lines of every battle in this war, and to suggest that we haven’t “earned our place at the table” displays a frightful disassociation with history.
The trans community is not the portion of the community that is destroying this relationship. Trans people have engaged in a constant struggle with the cis LGB community to have our substantial contributions even acknowledged, let alone remembered or returned.

A cisgender attitude of entitlement toward the trans community produces all the wrong behaviors if we want to be included in their struggle.

There. Fixed that for you.

Not enough of the LGB community is familiar and comfortable enough with us for us to be considered their inseparable partners in our shared struggle.

And this is the fault of the trans community?! Education is each individual’s responsibility, and particularly more the responsibility of the privileged. It is not the responsibility of the marginalized to inform the privilege.
Your entire screed reads, to me, like a treatise advocating for victim blaming. I would expect such arguments from a co-dependent battered woman who just can’t accept that being beaten half to death by the person she loves isn’t her fault. What’s next? I suppose next you’re going to tell us that human beings aren’t entitled to the equal protection of their rights!
Here’s a recommendation for a new signature line for you, azerica; it’s much more befitting your style:
“Ready! Shoot! Aim!”
Maybe you should try:
“Don’t act. Think!”

WaitaminuteNow I usually don’t participate in these trans discussions because I’m afraid I’m going to get whacked (or maybe, like most human beings, I don’t like being made aware of my privilege) but…here I go.

Education is each individual’s responsibility, and particularly more the responsibility of the privileged. It is not the responsibility of the marginalized to inform the privilege.

I actually went back and read Aravosis’ 2007 column (at a Salon link from KatRose’s blog) and yeah, it was pretty bigoted but there was one thing he said that I took note of.
He actually said that he missed the good ol’ days when we were all under the umbrella of simply being “gay.” And I tink that I’m hearing that very same lament come out of what David Ehrenstein is saying.
And that is what many in society considered us to be (and there’s still remnants of that time…even the homophobes refer far more to gay men than lesbians for example)
Combine that with the fact that many (if not most) LGB people really don’t keep all that up to date with news pertaining to the LGB community, never mind the T community. And yeah, since I’ve been participating in the LGBT blogosphere since 2009, I’ve learned a lot, I’m probably far more informed than most LGBs about LGB issues and let’s not even talk about T issues.
Now yes, of course, you would expect that those who run the “LGBT” organizations would be better informed but I don’t get the sense that LGBs are all that informed of a lot of things.
Nor should the burden of educating LGBs (never mind cis straight folk) fall solely upon T’s. But I do think that a lot of that education does remain to be done.  

Not speaking for GemmaBut I tend to do lots of education face to face and online about trans stuff. I don’t think the issue is necessarily “education” rather “education-on-demand”.
It’s one thing if the person doing the education is prepared or has set them self up as resource and another if the person has not. Showing up at an event should not be an invitation to provide “educational moments”.
Also, and just an observation of different perspectives, the quote you grabbed from Aravosis – I thought was one of the more problematic parts… in a complicated hard to explain way.

Try to explain itFWIW, I thought that Aravosis’ statement was problematic too…just as in the same since white gays act as if they are one with all gays of every ethnicity…I thought, too, that there was a lot of privilege (an almost wistful innocence…But I didn’t think it was phony) encoded in that message.

The shortI’m a woman and I date men – that’s not very gay.
The long and complicated:
I came out as a gay kid in a tiny rural Ohio town. I went through the harassment and angst and confusion and violence that many people in this situation endure. I was out and I was proud and I couldn’t wait to move away and find more people like me. My past as a gay man informed much of my life and politics, but it was ultimately a lie that became unavoidable the first time I actually had sex with a man.
We could probably share coming out stories and reactions and anecdotes an find commonality. In this way I have intimate experience of what it is to be a gay man.
So it’s hard to say “I’m not gay”, but it is a lie to say “I’m a gay man”. If we look at this from a “who we love” perspective, the men I date aren’t gay or bi they don’t see Buck Angel or Brad Pitt and think “yummy” – they see Kimber Jaymes or Jessica Alba and think “oh yeah”. While their strict heterosexuality may be debated, they aren’t attracted to men.
From an “axis of oppression” perspective, I’m straight until my status as a trans woman is known then it’s a mixed bag reaction. If I’m with my guy there is no ever present fear of violence when we show affection, I’m called Mrs. when we are in public together because people assume we are married, I get that bucket of social perks reserved for the heterosexuals.
Like I said, that’s contingent on my status being unknown. From a practical mainstream uneducated person’s POV – I’m as queer as Ellen and Portia. Which is why I insist on dating men who are either aware enough about the issues or comfortable enough with their attractions that the idea of someone thinking they are gay won’t freak them out.
So, no I’m not exactly gay or straight in an uncomplicated way. But I can lose my heterosexuality and my sexual identity by being known as trans while at the same time being accused of being ex-gay and hiding from homophobia.

Yeah…I’ve been wondering whether what is causing a lot of the vitriol is clashing sets of privilege on both sides…gay cis folks vs. straight trans folk…the loss of…camaraderie (which has been noted here)…etc…

Rate of TranssexualityLynn Conway’s done some very good work here, and the uncertainty in the numbers reflects more the uncertainty in definition of “trans” than anything else.
One metric for an absolute lower limit is the number who have actually had genital reconstruction after puberty. That will include some Intersexed people, but as this particular demographic are subject to the same Transphobia that others are, it makes little sense to distinguish them.
We don’t have those numbers for the USA, only estimates.
We do have the numbers for Australia. Because unlike the US, most Australians have passports. And to get the sex marker on a passport changed requires surgery.
The number of changes is 200/year for a population of 21 million, about 1/15 of the US population. So a realistic estimate is ~3000 genital reconstructions/year for the USA. This is in broad agreement with measurements showing on the order of 1000 such surgeries performed domestically, and at least that much performed overseas.
The birth rate in the USA over the last 30 years has been about 10 million a year. So a rate of 1 in 3000 is a floor estimate, a lower limit, for the number of trans people in the USA. On the order of 50-100,000 post-ops. I must emphasise that this is a lower limit; including those who desire surgery but are unable to have it, and those who don’t see the benefits of having genital reconstruction outweighing the risks, and we’re looking at far more, perhaps an order of magnitude more.
Lynn Conway, using a completely different method, puts it at 1 in 500. While I prefer the far more conservative number of 1 in 3000 which we can definitely prove, her figure is likely more accurate, as it includes non-surgical cases.
A recent survey in Canberra, Australia showed that there were on the order of 1000 transgendered people in a population of 300,000. There are certainly over 100 FtoM’s, and perhaps twice that of MtoFs – the data for the latter is poor, so many are in deep stealth.
So the conservative figures for GLB are about 3%, and for Trans people, about 1/10 of that, and an equal number of Intersexed people with trans-related concerns. It would be reasonable to say that in GLB(t) with a silent i, about 20% of resources should be spent on T/I-only issues, and one in 5 employees of GLBT organisations should be T or I.
But then – it would also be reasonable to have 50% of the Senate and House being female, wouldn’t it? And 3% being GLBT.

PerspectiveA lovely thing that…
From mine, it feels like a double-bind. I feel like it goes like this:
We are all gay
No, I’m not
HOMOPHOBE!
Other people probably hear it like this:
We are all one big family
I’m not like YOU PEOPLE – I’m straight!
Then why are you here?
The truth is probably in the middle, or in both.

AlsoI think you were totally right with:
“just as in the same since white gays act as if they are one with all gays of every ethnicity”
By saying he missed the days when we were all gay, really implies an almost universal narrative to the community – and we know who set the terms of any “universal” or default identity – the folks with the most power and social influence – generally male, white, and cis.
Like when conservatives hearken back to the “good old days”

Focus ZoeAs of 8:45 est there are 157,392 post op MTF’s in the United States. That includes the three who died today and the 21 who had surgeries. The number is not hard to come by. Don’t you know about the NSA registry? 5 of today’s surgeries were on the North American continent including 1 in Mexico. 12 were in Thailand (on U.S. citizens)and the remaining 4 were in Europe but performed on U.S. citizens.
But that is not the point. Remember Reagan versus Carter in 1980? Perhaps you were too young or too Australian. I apologize for expecting you to know much about America. Reagan destroyed Carter with a very simple line. He kept saying “there you go again Mr. President”. Then Reagan would address whatever Reagan wanted to address regardless of the point Carter had made.
So in spite of how many times various people want to pat themselves on the back and regardless of how high anyone wants to self exalt I warn you that the Pink Gorilla lurks. All the fears, scare tactics and mythology about “gender identity” is embodied in the Pink Gorilla. It is time to hold the Pink Gorilla up to public scrutiny. Just as Reagan said “there you go again Mr. President” we need to be saying “here comes the Pink Gorilla again”.
We can never overcome opposition if we get dragged down into detailed point by point discussions. That is a loser’s gambit. Now Zoe if you are smart and I can only assess that based on your prolific multi-disciplinary  cross cultural posts then let me suggest it is time to deploy the most effective tool in politics. That tool is derision. The opposition can handle anything but laughter. The skill is in serving the derision with a smile and tact as Reagan did with Carter. Comprendez vous?

What Sara said

The key concept underlying even Third Wave feminists is that gender is purely a social construct, that each person is a blank slate at birth when it comes to gender.

That BS is still being taught in Women’s Studies departments. I actually left WSU because of it. Fail to agree with their out-dated and disproved theory, and good luck getting through your coursework. If you know that what they are teaching is bullshit, then you are left with the choice of lying or leaving. I chose the latter.
If the only theoretical framework being taught to young people in WSt courses (which get a lot of kids funneled in because they fill “diversity” requirements) is that ^ BS, we will be left with another entire cohort of college kids who are as, if not more, biased against transwomen than the wavy feminists that teach them.

Hide?No, the right to actually transition…….and have an end to it.  That is not “hiding” that is not going through all the crap and losses to be a transgender instead of a man or a woman……..period.
And that is the essential issue women of history have with the Sandeens of the world.  We are women and will no longer stand for having those who claim sisterhood with us deny, defile and insult that.

You seem angryThank you for writing GS.  I was hoping someone would help me illustrate my point and you should do nicely.  I wish I could have responded sooner, but I had to help organize a protest sign making event to prepare for a protest action this weekend against a “repairative therapy” group, Exodus International.  I’m afraid that real activism must take precedence over sitting and talking.
By “entitlement”, I make subtle reference to diagnostic criteria #5 for Narcissistic Personality Disorder as defined in the DSM-IV, which reads:

5.  Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

It is not actual entitlement that’s at issue, but rather a false sense of entitlement that isn’t actually deserved.  The point you miss in my writing is that we are better served by considering what we need to do to get the support we need from the LGB community instead of being angry over not getting what we want.  The thing you don’t comprehend is that your anger is unjustified and gets you nowhere.
Narcissism is produced by what’s called the “grandiose false self”.  It is a built up, over-inflated image of one’s self that gets created in childhood as a defense against the harsh realities of a non-supportive or even abusive family environment.  It is a vision of themselves as being much bigger, much more important, much more intelligent, much more beautiful, much more talented, much more deserving, of much higher stature, much more blessed by God, etc. than everyone around them.  The narcissist becomes deeply, emotionally invested in building and protecting their grandiose false self to the point of being the driving force in their lives.  The severity of narcissism is defined by the “grandiosity gap”, which is the difference between how the narcissist sees himself and the realities of his circumstances.  The narcissist is always seeking out things that prop up and support their false self (called Narcissistic Supply), and reacts with extreme defensiveness, anger, and outright rage against anything, real or imaginary, that might suggest that their false self isn’t entirely accurate (called Narcissistic Injury).
Since GS, you don’t appear to be a link follower, here are the diagnostic criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder as listed in the DSM-IV:

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. Requires excessive admiration
5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

With this, we can come to a better understand of what you’ve written in your retort.

It is entitlement to expect the organizations that of their own accord claim to be working for the equal protection of trans rights, who plaster that fact over every website and pubication they produce, the organizations who time and time again come to the entire LGBt community, not just the cis parts of it hat in hand, the organizations who largely have captured all the limited oxygen available in the legislatures of this country, the organizations who time and time again have taken whatever support they can glean from us and then thrown us under the bus yet again? You call that entitlement?

It is a false sense of entitlement for you to believe that they should just do all of those things for you, even though you represent a very small portion of the population they serve, and you shouldn’t have to pitch in and help in any way.  It is a false sense of entitlement that causes you to feel outraged when they don’t do everything for you that you want done, or for that matter ever place anyone’s interests besides your own ahead of yours.

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance
3. Believes that he or she is “special”
4. Requires excessive admiration
5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Equality is a two-way street, sister. Where is the equivalent responsibility of our cis “good neighbors” in all of this? Why is it that our “good neighbors” don’t have to work equally as hard to get, not to mention deserve, our support?

It is a false sense of entitlement to believe that the LGB community must be good neighbors to you and you are entitled to be furious if they are not.  Good neighbors are a wonderful thing.  You should be thankful when you have them, but you are not entitled to them.  It’s a free country.  They can do whatever they want.  Further, few people feel like being good neighbors to bad neighbors.  If you want to have good neighbors, it is wise to trying being a good neighbor, instead of being insulting and demanding of other neighbors for not giving you want you want.

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance
3. Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. Requires excessive admiration
5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

The trans community is not the portion of the community that is destroying this relationship. Trans people have engaged in a constant struggle with the cis LGB community to have our substantial contributions even acknowledged, let alone remembered or returned.

A constant struggle?  Really?  So these independent people in a free society who are at liberty to go off and do their own thing if they want owe us this positive relationship, should be constantly acknowledging our accomplishments and giving us praise for all we’ve done, should put up with our bitching and moaning over not being recognized, and be thankful to have us around?  So you say we’re the ones who have been carrying them, bringing them along with us, given them every bit of progress they’ve seen.  They’d be nothing without us.  Is that what your’e saying GS?  That’s very enlightening GS, very enlightening indeed.

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. Requires excessive admiration
5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

And this is the fault of the trans community?! Education is each individual’s responsibility, and particularly more the responsibility of the privileged. It is not the responsibility of the marginalized to inform the privilege.

It’s their responsibility to educate themselves about us (well, really you).  You feel entitled to have them do that.  You don’t have to take the time to learn what their situation is.  After all, you’re the “victim” which gives you special privileges.

3. Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. Requires excessive admiration
5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

You are angry with me.  Why?  Because I, a stranger in a pubic space, uttered words you disagree with, and you are entitled to have everyone agree with you.  I suggested that you might not be deserving of special treatment, and that angers you.  I suggested that those who haven’t given you special treatment in the past shouldn’t be punished for it, and that angers you.  You resort to attempts at attacking my ego, because you work so hard to defend your own ego, you just assume that attacking someone else’s is the worst thing you can do to them.  When anyone does or says anything that might suggest that you aren’t as important, special, or entitled as you feel yourself to be, you vent your anger through ad hominem attacks.

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
3. Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

What has your anger got you?  Nothing.  Well, nothing except indulging your emotions of the moment and allowing you to drink in the rich decadence of basking in the warm glow of glorious false victimhood.  It hasn’t caused me to agree with you.  It hasn’t caused you to get your way.  It hasn’t proven you right.  It hasn’t made me want to help you get what you want.  It hasn’t fostered a partnership which will achieve your goals.  All it’s done is establish you as a very annoying character that I really don’t want around me.  You’ve shone yourself to be an irrational, demanding, raving lunatic who cannot be reasoned with.  I wouldn’t want you in a lifeboat with me, and it probably wouldn’t be long before I would be pushing you overboard just to get you out of my face.
The thing your grandiose false self won’t allow you to comprehend is that your anger means nothing more to me than a mild annoyance that I want to brush aside and will do nothing more than the bare minimum to placate if I have to.  I don’t give a shit if you’re angry.  Why should I?  You’re nothing.  You’re nobody.  You’re just little words on a screen to me that I can make disappear with the touch of a button.  Why, you’re nothing more than a toy I’m playing with right now to show my friends how ridiculous you look.
But I’m through playing with you.  Goodbye little words on a screen.

What a pathetic ad-hominem troll you are.Asserting the same false statements over and over again doesn’t make them truth. We can hear the same thing over and over again from transphobic radical feminists, who conveniently decry any trans woman who disagrees with their warped philosophies as “a man”. Your characterization of anyone who disagrees with you as suffering from a narcissistic disorder is itself evidence of narcissism.
I’m glad you’re done “playing”. You don’t have anything of value to say. Your ranting amounts to blaming the victim, nothing more, nothing less. My writing, on the other hand, is quite easily backed up by actual, well-documented historical experiences, of which you seem to be blissfully unaware. Clearly, you are incapable of addressing these facts, and would prefer that your solipsism rule the day.
Get over yourself. Talk about narcissism? Look in your mirror, honey.

Education *is* necessary……which is why I do so much of it.
That said, I stand by my statement. It’s not the trans community’s responsibility to educate; it it each individual’s responsibility to educate themselves, particularly it is the cis community’s responsibility to educate itself about trans people and the privileges that the trans community does not share.
Of course, there’s sadly little of that going on, so by necessity, many of us trans people are “forced” into a position of ensuring that education happens.
Lucky for me that I seem to be personally OK with it.

” I’ve said it many times, I’m the most hated transsexual in Arizona. “small wonder that.
Psychological diagnosis should be done in a therapeutic setting, not in the comments section of a blog.
It is pretty clear you are getting your ego patted by the GLB because you show up and absolve the nice cis-folks of any responsibility in the creation of any rifts in the community – after all it is just because trans people have these unrealistic expectations and not because there is any history or evidence that the GL establishment has lied about, bargained away, or co-opted, the needs of trans folks.
You sound like someone who justifies the behavior of an abusive spouse.
Me, I’m about done with the GLBT. I find that with cis straight folks I don’t need to explain the same things over and over. I find they listen and learn and take that knowledge to their friends. I’ve had men on porn sites organize their own online TDoR, I’ve gotten the largest trans porn producer to donate thousands of dollars monthly to International trans groups, I’ve gotten men who used to refer to us in the most degrading ways to police each other and educate themselves and others on our real issues and needs. All this in about 2 years.
Where are we after 40 years in the GLBT?

You’re so cute right now, I wish I had a camera

I didn’t make any diagnosisI simply quoted readily available diagnistic criteria to illustrate my initial point.  If you see some parallel between the criteria and GS’s behavior, then that’s a conclusion you’ve drawn.  True, the same I draw, but that’s because the evidence speaks for itself.
I, as does any member of a free society, have the right to form an opinion about people, as both you and GS had done here today about me.  I respect your right to do that.  Further, I, as does any member of a free society, have the right to base my opinion of others on personal experiences both with them and other exeriences in my past, on things I have read, things I have seen, etc.  I, as does any member of a free society, have the right to read the psychological literature which I’ve referenced.  Put together, I, as do you, GS, or any member of a free society, have the right to form a personal opinion about someone for your own purposes based on psychological literature.  In fact, both you and GS have very clearly expressed opinions of me that are of psycholocially diagnostic nature.  I’ve only insinuated it with GS.
That is not the same as diagnosis.  True, I am not a mental health professional.  All that means is that I can’t accept money in return for services, I can’t write prescriptions, I can’t recommend treatment for someone to actual health care professionals, and I can’t render professional opinions in a court of law.  However, I am still at liberty to form opinions and express them.  Spare me the “diagnosis” excuse while making the diagnosis of “ego patting”.  That’s just the pot calling the kettle black.
You will recall that my original thesis is all about narcissism, and GS has served as a microcosm to illustrate my point.  How GS looks to me is pretty much how the angry, ranting, trans-activists look to the LGB community.  Hysterical, unreasonable, demanding, and really annoying.  That’s not blaming the victim or being an apologist for anything.  That’s showing you, in black and white, right in front of your eyes, exactly what it looks like.  It doesn’t win any friends.  It doesn’t gain anyone support.  It gets you nowhere.

That’s not blaming the victim or being an apologist for anything. Yeah it pretty much is…
You have failed to address at any point the alternative I have to our problematic relationship with the GLB and rather focused the majority of your comments to absolving them of any responsibility in creating the volatile relationship we currently have with them and laying blame on the apparently unreasonable demands and expectations of “Hysterical, unreasonable, demanding, and really annoying” trans people.
Given this, and your ham-handed transparent dressing down of GS for the temerity of being to uppity to her superiors in the movement, It is pretty obvious that you are invested in keeping things the way they are. Make the apologies and switch up the history to position the GLB as unwitting innocents who are the unfair targets of trans rage (or what ever). If that helps you keep on keepin’ on … by all means continue. I’ll be working with people who actually want to work with us and not against us.

So?I don’t give a shit about your point, because my point is that your point is pointless.  I’m only defending my thesis, not answering you.  You refuse to address my point that we need friends and yelling at people doesn’t make you any friends, and that’s the only thing I’m here to address.  Dale Carnegie’s first rule from “How To Win Friends and Influence People” is, “Don’t criticize, condemn, or complain.”  Right now, winning friends and influencing people is what we need more than anything else.  Your anger, your blaming, your accusations, and your grudges get us nowhere.  Repeat, nowhere.  Your point (whatever it is, I really haven’t read it) boils down to criticizing, condemning and complaining ad infinitum.  Get over it.  You’re only serving your ego and doing nothing to advance the cause.
I have not interest in redressing past wrongs.  I have no desire to see anger satisfied.  I want progress.  That’s it.  Where are we, where do we want to be, and how best can we get there?  Further, the constituency I serve is only secondarily the transpeople around today.  My mission is to pave the way to a better life for the vast, hidden majority of gender dysphorics who are out there, stuck in lives they hate, terrified of living true to the people they are.  I was one of them once, and it was hell.  They have no interest in your grievances.  They’re just stuck in miserable lives, that’s all.  Picking fights with the LGB community only serves to leave them where they are, and that is unconscionable.

Right now, winning friends and influencing people is what we need more than anything else. After 40 years of playing nice with the GLB hasn’t resulted in that now has it?
If you haven’t read what my point is, then you have only been selectively reading my posts to you, since I’ve given viable alternatives to the GLB at least twice to you, Now this doesn’t surprise me since you selectively read history and parcel out blame.
I want progress as well, going through the same issues over and over with the GLB isn’t really progress now is it? That would be pretty much the opposite of progress. A busted car with a new paint job may look nice, but it still won’t run.
My point, actually, boils down to telling the GLB that we aren’t the pathetic weak beggars that you, azerica, seem to need us to be for them.  My point is, I’m almost done supporting the LGBT and you can keep telling them they didn’t really do anything wrong and there is no need to actually earn a group’s trust before you use them to advance your cause. That’s on you – not me.  

Wow, two illustrations in one day

After 40 years of playing nice with the GLB hasn’t resulted in that now has it?

I’m amazed that they’ve kept us in tow at all, given they treatment they receive from people like you.  If I were them, I would have cut us loose years ago.  They’re better people than we are, I’ll tell you that much.  This “40 years of playing nice” is just a trans-concocted myth to pump up their own sense of narcissistic self importance (I don’t have to re-cut-and-paste that diagnostic criteria for you, do I).  Sylvia Rivera threw a bottle one night, and then we disappeared for 30 years.  And now, transpeople keep angrily saying that because Silva threw that bottle, “You owe us!”  That’s kind of like saying that the first person to throw out the first pitch of the season is responsible for winning the World Series.  It’s not the spark that causes the explosion, it’s the powder keg.  Sylvia was just a spark.  The building anger of the gay community at their treatment in law and at the hands of law enforcement was the powder keg.  It happened in a zeitgeist of protest in the time of the civil rights movement and opposition to the Vietnam War.  If Sylvia hadn’t throw that bottle that night, something else would have sparked it around that same time.  It’s ridiculous to think that the LGB community wouldn’t be around the same place they are today if Silvia had never been born.
But then we went away and hid.  We weren’t there helping them get that movement going.  We didn’t stay, shoulder-to-shoulder fighting along side them.  They made their movement happen without us.  The culture of the trans community from before Silvia throwing her bottle up until sometime in the past decade has always been a stealth-only model.  We have believed that they way you deal with discrimination was to hide from it, while the LGB community moved forward with the mindset of fighting it.  Only in the past decade or so have we started to slowly come around to escape the stealth model.  And now, we want in on their movement..  We make demands from an attitude of entitlement that they must include us.  We say they should have been supporting us all along.  It’s our right to be included.  They owe us.  That’s not playing nice.  As I mentioned in my initial essay, I am in and around, working with they LGB community all the time, and there are scarcely any trans people to be seen.  You’re not playing nice if you’re not playing at all.  You’ve got to be involved to claim that.  In the end, this “40 years of playing nice” is actually, “40 years of leaving them alone” except to occasionally make angry demands that they work for our rights.  That’s not being a partner.  That’s not sharing the burden.  That’s not being a friend.  That’s not playing nice.
Where has it got us? About the same place it’s got them.  They’re still struggling for their rights.  They still face discrimination.  They still have laws on the books that specifically deny them rights.  You think they should have been working to put our rights way out ahead of theirs, and doing it without our participation.  Yeah, there’re ahead of us, but they’ve been working hard at it for 40 years and we’ve been dipping our toe in the water for about 10.  We can’t get our people to pitch in and help.  We can’t keep our people from fighting among themselves.  We can’t stop using the fact that the LGB community is out there as an excuse for doing nothing at all.
The people making these demands always do so with a tone of anger that to my eyes reveal the true motivation behind their actions (I don’t have to re-cut-and-paste that diagnostic criteria for you, do I?).  There are good reasons that a much larger portion of the transsexual population are narcissists than you find among the general population.  In my experience, most transsexuals are rather severe narcissists.  Those reasons are a very large subject worthy of their own essay for another day, but it doesn’t take a lot of empirical observation to see it (just look up and down the web page you’re gazing at now).  It is the biggest thing holding us back.  It is a result of the fact that only a very small portion of the gender dysphoric population is willing to come forward and transition, and the sad result is that generally speaking, the worst of us are the ones who do it.
Just like you, Rio, want to be bitter and angry.  You demand that your anger be satisfied.  You react with anger to anyone who suggests that your anger might be misplaced or counter productive.  You attack the LGB community with derision and insult for the same reason you attack me with derision and insult.  You want to wound their egos.  You think that by attacking them at a personal level, they will respond to your demands and answer your rage.  However, just as with me, what really makes you angry is the fact that they don’t seem to be getting angry.  You are insulted by their lack of insult.  You keep expecting me to respond to you in anger even after I posted all that material about narcissism and I’ve made it clear that I’m accutely aware that ego attacking is how you people operate.  I’m not going to let you manipulate me with my ego.  And guess what.  The LGB community isn’t especially manipulated by your anger either.  They just see you as irrational and unreasonable because they don’t buy in to your sense of entitlement.
Why don’t you go right ahead and walk away from the LGBT.  I’m sure they’ll be glad to see you go.

More?You aren’t interested at all in moving forward. It is obvious since you failed, again, to address anything other than to insinuate that I, and every other trans person who questions out relationship with the GLB, has a mental illness.
You really are blind to the history of trans people in the LBGT movement. I can’t really fault you for that because, well, it would make all the self-aggrandizing walls of text you write meaningless.
In the decade since I began transition, I have slowly gone from 100% active visible support of the LGBT to leaving entirely. That didn’t happen in a vacuum, that didn’t happen because of a single problem or event. I don’t really care at this point if the LGB groups support trans people or not, since that wouldn’t actually change the reality most of us live in anyway. I’d like to give them the chance to regain trust, but I’m good if they don’t
You can continue feeling like you are beholden to them. Yu can continue thinking that trans people are weak and pathetic and unable to do anything without first appeasing the LGB. It fills their seeming need to own trans identities and it obviously fills some need of yours to be “the good one” who confirms that the rest of us are “the bad ones”.

And you, my dear……are a concern troll.
http://www.urbandictionary.com…
I thought you were done “playing”?

Don’t bother feeding the troll…She is clearly incapable of anything more than reiterating the same statements that lack any basis in fact. Not once does she ever address any of the points anyone here has made with any substantive argument that can be externally verified.
She displays every one of the symptoms of the narcissistic personality disorder of which she accuses everyone who disagrees with her.
To wit:

I don’t give a shit if you’re angry.  Why should I?  You’re nothing.  You’re nobody.  You’re just little words on a screen to me that I can make disappear with the touch of a button.  Why, you’re nothing more than a toy I’m playing with right now to show my friends how ridiculous you look.

.I don’t give a shit about your point, because my point is that your point is pointless.

She can assert all she wants that the rest of us are just narcissistic and feel a false sense of entitlement to the equal protection of our human rights, but no matter how many times she asserts it, no matter how loudly or stridently, no matter how many times she continues to project her own behavior onto others, her words are never going to be any less false than they already are.
Her words speak for themselves, as do yours and mine, and I’m confident that any rational person can see the difference.

Oh, and how could I forget *this* little gem…

I’m afraid that real activism must take precedence over sitting and talking.

Talk about:

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance

:rolleyes:
Erica, you really have a grandiose view of how effective your “real activism” is, as compared to the efforts of others! You might have noticed that no one here ever disparaged your admittedly considerable activism, and yet, for some reason you feel the need to degrade others’ achievements.

I’m not going to let you manipulate me with my ego.

My, my, don’t we have a high opinion of ourselves? No one ever attacked your ego, only your clearly unsupportable arguments. I repeat, since you seem to like that tactic so much:

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance

I can’t think of a better example of why there is such a generational split in the trans community between the Baby Boomers and those of us who came later. This is why so many of us in Gen X and Gen Y feel the need to shut out them out and form our our communities. We can’t get a word in edgewise with all their blathering about the “proper” way to be trans, or the “proper” way to be an activist.
Incidentally, but not co-incidentally, it’s also the reason why it’s futile to argue with the transphobic radical feminists who are still stuck in 1970′s thought patterns regarding sex and gender; any time you disagree with them, they come right at you with the old “of course you do, you’re really a man”.
I’ve heard better diagnoses from Psych 101 students. There’s little in this world as continuously amusing as people who get captured by the cis-centric psychiatric gatekeeping system and then start insisting that everyone around them must be disordered because they learned a smidgen of psych-speak as a therapy patient.
“Ah, you seem angry…you must be narcissistic!”
As long as we’re throwing around armchair psych diagnoses based on extremely limited evidence, here’s one for you to look up, Erica. It might do you some good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S…
and while you’re at it, you might comtemplate the words of the Bard:

For ’tis the sport to have the enginer
   Hoist with his own petar; and ‘t shall go hard
   But I will delve one yard below their mines
   And blow them at the moon: O, ’tis most sweet,
   When in one line two crafts directly meet.

XOXO, Gemma

You seem enragedThank you GS, for semi-unwittingly serving as my example subject.  I had intended at the time of issuing my original post of making it a two-parter so that I could address in vivid detail the phenomenon of NPD and how it drives people to false perceptions of reality and with it, relationship destroying behaviors.  I knew that all I had to do was to post an essay suggestion that transgender rage may be a product of their own psychology rather than a justified response to offense, and I would have someone stepping up to attack me in angry tones at a personal level that I could use to show people what NPD looks like.  It’s as predictable as a bad sit-com.  You’re just the one who stepped up to attack me, so I made use of you.  Truth be known, you aren’t the trans-narcissist I was hoping would do so, but we can’t always get what we want.  Who that might have been I will leave to the imagination of the reader.  You did the job however.  I’m actually a little bit sorry, since the response was overwhelming, but when you initiate an attack against a stranger in a public space, you make yourself fair game.  Oh, I know in your mind you don’t think you made the initial attack, but that’s because your false sense of entitlement has you believing that it’s your right to levy insult against anyone, and they should just cheerfully take it while nodding and saying “You’re right, I’m sorry”  Well, no, you’re not right, your wrongness comes from a predictable place, and until we address the high incidence of wrongness such as yours, we will always be dragged down by it.
In reference to those parting words of mine that you quoted:

I don’t give a shit if you’re angry.  Why should I?  You’re nothing.  You’re nobody.  You’re just little words on a screen to me that I can make disappear with the touch of a button.  Why, you’re nothing more than a toy I’m playing with right now to show my friends how ridiculous you look.

That was a very specifically calculated statement, and you’ve responded to them exactly the way I expected you to.  Most of it was meant to frame the four words, “You’re nothing.  You’re nobody.”  That is about the most deeply, penetratingly, emotionally disturbing, insulting thing you can say to a narcissist.  It is damning of the grandiose false self in the extreme.  To a non-narcissist they seem trivial, but to the narcissist they will elicit a response of utter rage.  I put it on there to illustrate just how easily you could be manipulated, furthering the illustration I was using you to make.  Since you read that, you have been fuming and seething with hatred for me, and contemplating how you can get your revenge.  You’ve been able to think of little else.  You’ve not exercised any rationality except to prop up your deeply wounded ego.  Four little words on a screen and I have dominated your mind for days, and will probably be prominent in your thoughts for weeks, and you may flash back on it occasionally for years.  Narcissistic Rage is a defense mechanism the narcissist uses, usually in futility, to try to neutralized a Narcissistic Injury.  By being angry at me, you feel that you can discredit my words.  The more you can stay angry at me, the more you can focus on the anger instead of considering that there might be some validity in the message.  By devaluing me, you rationalize in your own mind that my words mean nothing, even though if they meant nothing, they wouldn’t make you angry.  So, you try to attack my ego to sooth your ego, hoping to elicit a rage response in me to validate your defense of your grandiose false self.  All you want is some way to get back at me and wound my ego worse than I wounded yours.  Sorry to tell you GS, but that’s not going to happen.  See, you handed me the weapon.  You made yourself vulnerable.  You put out in clear view this huge target of your fragile ego, practically handed me a Howitzer and then dared me to shoot in the midst of taunts and jeers.  You would think people so vulnerable wouldn’t do that, but narcissists can’t see their own vulnerability because to recognize it would be to admit that maybe there’s an inaccuracy in their grandiose false self.  So they go out there with a great big target on their most prized possession, their egos, and firing shots and lobbing grenades at anyone who even looks at them funny.
An outside observer would say to you, “What did you expect?”  Someone says something you don’t like in a public space, and the first thing you do is go after them with fuming angry tones and ego attacks.  You didn’t even attempt to go through some intermediate step of calm, rational assertion of your own opinion or respectful debate of the issues.  You didn’t take the time to consider that getting someone to listen to your position mandates their receptiveness to your ideas, and insulting someone shuts down their receptiveness (which means you’re not really hearing anything I’m saying here either, but this isn’t really for your benefit GS).  But you couldn’t.  Disagreement is seen as an attack in your mind, attack creates anger, you are entitled to express your anger, and given your special status, other people have the obligation to you to placate your anger.  The people you’re angry at don’t see it that way.  Other people can’t see your grandiose false self.  They only see an angry, yelling, insulting, irrational, unreasonable individual that they just want to get away from.  And they are wise to do so.  The only way truly effective way to deal with a narcissist is to get away from them.
Just as if we in the trans community continue to allow the angry voices of the narcissistic members of our community be our primary or even secondary relationship with the LGB community, they are going to want to get away from us.  You are going to hate me forever all because of those few little words on a screen.  They’re nothing.  A combination of a few innocuous words.  They don’t even mean anything.  But your ego can’t deal with the fact that they’re out there and you will never let it go.  In a situation where you absolutely needed me for your survival, you would rather die than to let go of the anger over those little words uttered in your general direction.  If we allow you, or someone like you who feels ego wounded by the LGB community to represent us to them, you will sabotage any opportunity to form a productive relationship with them if for no other reason than to prop up your ego and validate in your own mind that they must be wrong in their offense and your grandiose false self must be true.
And that, in a nutshell is what is destroying our relationship with the LGB community.
Thank you for serving as my example GS.  Best wishes to you in the future.

You cannot even begin to understand how loudly I am laughing right now.Let me let you in on a little secret, honey. You haven’t incited any anger or rage in me at all, and it is your own narcissism that leads you to believe that you have.
As for anyone “stepping up to attack” you, that’s all in your paranoid mind. No one attacked you. You, in fact, came in here with an indictment of a large portion of the trans community, and I simply refuted your arguments. It took me less effort than I would use to swat a fly.
The only reason why I bother responding to you at all is because it’s so easy to demonstrate how utterly delusional you are, the fallacious weakness of your (non-)arguments, and to give you even more of an opportunity to bury yourself under the deluge of nonsense that spews from your mouth. All I have to do is keep quoting you, and watch you repeat your self over and over again.
Just like I do with the transphobic radfems, I exposed you for the fraud you are. It is plain for all to see that you have not even once addressed a single argument in any substantive fashion, because you are clearly a pseudo-intellectual inferior who is ignorant of the strictures of argumentation and incapable of logical debate on this level.
Some people would walk away. I prefer to show the world just how ridiculous you characters really are.