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crossposted on Holy Bullies and Headless Monsters
I sincerely HOPE to step on toes with this post.
I submit to you the REAL problem in the African-American community when it comes to issues of lgbts of color. The following is from a little-noted press conference by some black pastors in Illinois (naturally put together by a predominantly white religious right group – that's always how the story goes) whining that the struggle for lgbt equality isn't the same as the African American struggle for equality:
It's a cute ignorant speech by Ms. Vessel whom I am certain most likely earned her title (s).
But then that's the thing which bothers me.
This woman reminds me of Crystal Dixon. Remember her? She is the former University of Toledo Human Resources Officer who, in 2008, got sacked for writing an anti-gay piece. She became a cause celebre of the religious right in regards to freedom of speech as long as they omit the fact that while she wrote the piece on her own times, she was talking about her employer's policy without the permission of her employer.
The important thing to remember about her for the benefit of this post is that she had claimed to be called by God to preach.
And then there is the case of the 2009 supposed exorcism of a gay teen by a woman who called herself a “prophetess.”
Do you get what my point is here?
Just in the few blocks where I live, there are close to six or seven churches. And while I know there isn't anything wrong with this, I can't help wondering if some of those churches are run by people with a real interest on doing God's work or folks more interested in anointing themselves as “Reverend Doctor Bishop Prophetess Apostle whomever” in order to get a spotlight regardless of the fact that they don't know what the heck they are talking about.
I don't care what the old adage says. Ignorance is NOT bliss. And in the hands of people like the folks I mention, it's a deadly weapon used against lgbts of color.
Like so many others, some African-Americans need to be educated on the fact that lgbts of color exist and we are just as normal and beneficial to the community as heterosexual African-Americans.
But our community also has a plethora of individuals who desire titles before their names or wanting their own churches to be filled with people drooling over their every word.
Unfortunately a lot of times, these folks aim their venom at us in order to get that spotlight. Folks such as Bishop Eddie Long who, before the gay sex scandal, not only led marches against the lgbt community but also spoke out publicly against us
And while these enterprising black leaders receive a great deal of prominence (hello Bishop Harry Jackson – another wannabe getting well-known from hurting his own people), lgbts of color, particularly young lgbts of color, are suffering.
We need less “apostles, prophets, reverends, and bishops” and more out and proud lgbts like so:
The question is who should the African-American community stand with – people who are simply standing up for themselves or a sad system of charlatans, liars, and secret humpers out to use God to get meaningless titles before their names.
The choice is yours, my beautiful black brothers and sisters.
Hat tip to Goodasyou and No More Downlow TV
24 Comments
A sad historyI admit I just couldn’t bring myself to listen to the entire video clip of Dr. Apostle Priestess High Poobah Yawahootie Ms. Rhonda whatever…
But I got the jist of it, just before my disgust at her ignorance overcame my patience. She basically is saying the same things that the professional homobigots have always said:
1) gay sex is sinful because the bible says so.
2) gay sex is learned behavior, because she says she learned how not to be an adulterer, therefore gay people can learn to be straight. I can’t even muster up the patience to untangle that mess of contradictions, false analogies and oversimplifications. Oy.
3) The gummint shouldn’t not be givin’ nothing to those sinful gays cuz they’re just like adulterers, pornographers and masturbators. When did the government get into the religion enforcing business?
It’s really a shame that the very same religion (christianity) which supported the enslavement, sale and trafficking of human beings, is now being accepted by those very descendants of their vitims. Christianity banned the native religions of those they enslaved, forced itself upon them and this is the result. Christianity and the bible served as a convenient cover for the denigration of all non-white people wherever christians went, and now continues to oppress them with it’s nonsense and fairy tales. Why don’t the churches tend to their own business and leave gay people alone? Why has the conservative movement chosen this issue as the last great stand against secularization, in their vain attempt to dominate the spiritual and psychological, and political lives of all people?
Like I’ve Always Said …I’m an atheist, but I’ve got no beef with that Jesus guy. He sounds like a decent social and political activist for the little people, and it’s probably a shame he couldn’t stick around longer to accomplish more.
But his followers? Most of them I can do without…
Some words for the Apostle Doctor Carolyn Empty Vessel . . . . . . there is always 1 Corinthians 13 for you to read and meditate upon. I know, this passage is overused at weddings – but nothing is more appropriate for you today, Mme. Apostle Doctor.
Nothing sounds more like a “noisy gong or a clanging cymbal” more than someone who thinks they know science but does not, and who thinks they understand sacred scripture, but does not have a clue as to a proper exegesis.
And an empty vessel can be noisier than a “noisy gong or a clanging cymbal,” but without love, she is nothing.
For a moment, it almost seemed that the eloquent but misinformed Apostle Doctor could have been speaking for legitimizing the freedom to marry on a gender neutral basis – after all, fornication and adultery are behaviors that involve sex outside the bond of marriage. And as Paul the Apostle also wrote in the same letter (1 Cor. 7:8-9) that “if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn.”
As the adage goes, “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”
As to the relationship between the struggle for African-American civil rights, and the struggle for LGBT civil rights, of course they are not “the same.” But they are closely related – During the 1830′s, out of the abolitionist movement grew the nascent first wave of the women’s rights struggle. Perhaps half the abolitionists saw the comonality between discrimination based on the color of one’s skin or being different, or a stranger, and discrimination rooted in misogyny. Even today, there is a divided opinion as to the relationship between racisim, sexism, heterosexism and cissexism. But that should not get in the way, as all are struggles for justice, fairness and rightness.
The struggle for women’s rights is related to the struggle for LGBT rights because discrimination against women, and discrimination against LGBT people, is rooted in misogyny.
Those who have power, and do not have love, are tyrants and oppressors who oppose justice. Apostle Doctor Vessel has found a position of relative power – but without love, she can be nothing but an oppressor with a clanging gong.
Alvin all I have to say isIf folks are worried about getting their toes stepped on, then maybe they need to keep their ashy feet out of the damn aisle.
What the Bible says?Regardless of what “2 Caronicals” says (her pronunciation of “Chronicles” was so dreadful I thought she was going to say 2 Corinthians at first!), we don’t live in a backwoods absolute monarchy like Judah so what we value today and what they valued then are going to be very different, dontcha think? Most biblical writers believed that if you had improper religious practices you should be killed (which is the point of the story about Uzziah and other Judahite kings who deviated from what these writers thought were proper religious practices).
Are those biblical values that we should support, “Rev.” “Dr.” Dixon, despite our First Amendment?
For the thousandth time: Democracy, individual freedom, freedom of choice, and women’s equality, among other values we hold dear are NOT biblical. The entire concept of social equality for all is not a biblical value. Instead of trying to resurrect Iron Age (Old Testament) and Imperial Roman (New Testament) values for your own ego, maybe you should join the twenty-first century?
I also think, Alvin, that the African-American community needs some basic biblical literacy. Most Christian AA’s I’ve spoken to only know the self-serving snippets their pastors spoon feed them. I wonder if “Dr.” Dixon is aware that the late Persian period text of Chronicles is a rewriting of the book of Kings which introduces a series of different ideologies that conflict with the Book of Kings? There’s no need to get into it here, but the point is that “the Bible” is not one, unified book, but contains a lot of differing, often conflicting viewpoints. To me, that’s what makes the Bible interesting and theologically rich. And I think the diversity of opinion can undermine those who would want to use it to control people.
Oh and Joann……that was a great response. Your comment posted while I was writing mine. Related to misogyny, some New Testament writers, like 1 Timothy say that women should not teach or preach (at least over men). So I wonder what exegetical contortions she works herself into to explain those passages.
Why is it that only“the African American community” needs some basic biblical literacy, though?
I do agree with you about basic understanding of the Bible though, I don’t think it’s limited to black Americans, though. (i.e. “the patience of Job,” LOL. What version of the Bible do people read because I’ve read the Book of Job in several translations and Job ain’t all that patient…and that book is my favorite in the OT, actually)
Nothing worse then 1 Minority Opressing another……Pathetic …ohh Im glad I am NOT at the forefront of crap like this……where I have to confront these assholes, cause there is NO way Id be able to button my lip…the time for being nice is OVER…WAY OVER! Id tell that FAT Bitch…she hasd NO problem suffering he SIN of GLUTTONY! (as like many standing with her) …..I wanna Vomit.
Remember Mel Boozer!“Would you ask me how I dare to compare the civil rights struggle with the struggle for lesbian and gay rights? I can compare them and I do compare them, because I know what it means to be called a ‘nigger’ and I know what it means to be called a ‘faggot,’ and I understand the differences in the marrow of my bones. And I can sum up that difference in one word: none.”
Who IS that queento the left of The Vessel?
Aren’t these the same people who believe that the Bible is the direct and inerrant word of GOD?
So what about
1 Timothy 2:11-14
11. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
and we won’t even talk about the “mark of Cain/Ham” scriptures that were used to teach me and other children across the South about why black people were inferior and cursed to be slaves.
Anyone can use, misuse and misinterpret Biblical myths to justify their bigotry. It’s just more upsetting and infuriating when one traditionally oppressed group (gays, racial minorities, women, religious minorities) are bigoted against other traditionally oppressed groups.
Context.I doubt that either Alvin or Brian would claim that African-American Christians are biblically illiterate while all white American Christians are biblical scholars.
But it is specifically an article about African-American Christians doing yet another round of this specific sort of media show, so it isn’t out of line to suggest a needed fix for them in particular.
Thanks for the reminder, Alvin!I do remember Crystal Dixon, because the University of Toledo’s just up I-75 from my home here in Bowling Green.
As far as I know, her suit against UT is still in the legal system, and has yet to be heard, as far as I know.
For those who want to read the tripe she spewed in the Toledo Free Press, claiming that LGBT civil rights aren’t equal to hers as a racial minority, here’s the link: http://www.toledofreepress.com…
Through the entire debate she started two years ago, it was rarely noted that Ms. Dixon’s another in a long line of self-appointed “experts” with a title like the ones Alvin so rightfully deconstructs.
Keep up the great work, Alvin. These so-called emperors have no spiritual clothes.
TrueExactly, Lymis. I didn’t mean that African Americans are uniquely illiterate when it comes to the Bible. Rather, it is definitely something African Americans need, since Christianity is still so important. I’ve met plenty of white, Latino and Asian Christians who didn’t understand the Bible either.
I understood what you were attempting to sayIf you had simply said “African American Christians” I may not have had quite the problems with that statement (although I know some AA Christians that are quite literate in the Bible).
After all, you can’t be truly literate in the Christian Bible unless you understand Koine Greek, ancient Hebrew, and Aramaic.
Which reminds me of this wonderful AA lesbian who used to work in my office building that knew all three ancient languages as she had studied them in divinity school. You could not come for that sista on anything that had to do with the Bible.
There’s a sucker born every minute.One of the big problems with Christianity, as it is practiced in the good ol’ USA, is that there is simply no regulation, no job qualifications, no enforceable performance standards for ministers. If you can find people dumb enough to support you, you can declare yourself a prophet, a bishop, a blessed thingumabob or whatever else–and make a damn good living at it. There is no one to hold you accountable; you don’t have to prove that you’re in any way qualified; just claiming that you are is sufficient. Local access cable here is sloshing over with prophets, bishops. apostles, saints and what have you who, as near as it’s possible to judge, are running their “ministries” out of their kitchens. (One black preacher lady identifies herself as “Servant” So-and-so–which always makes me think of Hattie McDaniel.) And I don’t mean to aim this solely at the black community. We all know that “Rev.” Mike Huckabee never graduated from an accredited university, Biblical or otherwise. Yet I’ve never heard anyone question his bona fides.
While opposing the establishment of an official state religion, many of the Founders advocated strict regulation. Thomas Jefferson, during the drafting of Virginia’s state constitution, argued that the earnings of ministers should be regulated by law. (How do you think Pat Robertson would have gotten along with him?) Benjamin Franklin warned against the kind of unscrupulous preacher who is willing and eager “to cheat a whole country with his religion, and then destroy them under Colour of Law.” The fact that such public pronouncements are never made by any political figure today is one more indication of how severely this nation has deteriorated. And I’d argue that the fact that “legitimate” preachers never call out the obvious scam artists and crackpots is a pretty fair indication that the who thing is one huge racket.
“Christianity” or “Protestant Christianity” ?at least as it’s practiced in the states?
But the idea that true bona fides aren’t necessary is very American, I agree with you there.
Thanksgiving for Melvin BoozerMarlene, thank you for remembering, and for citing Mel Boozer’s trenchant statement. And I do remember Mel’s passion, advocacy and leadership. His speech declining the vice presidential nomination at the 1980 Democratic Convention was an electrifying moment in the movement for justice and equality. I am proud to have been active in Washington DC’s gay community when Mel was leading the Langston Hughes Democratic Club.
How I mourn his loss still! Every time I have had the opportunity to see the Names Projects AIDS quilt on display I make a pilgrimage to the Black and White Men Together (BWMT) panel honoring Mel. He would have been an amazing politician for our own age, and I wish he had only lived to see the legal and cultural changes of the past decades and to celebrate the steady advances our communities–both here in the District of Columbia and in states and cities across the country–have forged since his passing.
I forfeit my right comment on the merits of the entire video…as I could not get past this idiot talking about “the science,” with a look so smug I had to avert my eyes, demonstrating only that she doesn’t have a damn clue about the topic she’s trying to address.
A hero for our timesAlthough the full quote is sometimes too long for most sig files, I try to use a shortened version.
“If you try anything, you can like it.” Preach it!Well, I hung with Sistah Empty Vessel all the way to the end of that clip, and I just want to say…Whew! Girfriend most definitely has a PhD in coprology and scatology and, uh, leprosy. Huh? Anyway, it all ended okay by me since she said if you wanna sleep wit a man that’s your bizness, and if you wanna sleep wit a woman that’s your bizness. Hey! Isn’t that what we’ve been saying all along? Amen.
OMG. His shirt and tie AND watch all match.Also, check out the dude in the black shirt at one o’clock with the handlebar stache. Uh-huh.
My daughter is planning to take dual Doctoratesin theology and feminism. The Theology doctorate is different than a D.D(Divinity) which requires a M Div to move on. Say what you want, but the mainstream churches as a rule do insist upon a fairly rigorous education on the subject of their faith for their clergy.
Whan I was studying Law in the states to be able to practice here, I was amazed just how many Bishops lived in my apartment building, because there were more bishops in the building than we had altogether in Ireland.
America must need more bishops because they are so very sinful, right?
Religion, overriding your evolved sense of compassion and humanity for 2000 years.First off, I am a straight, white male.
Who lives in a predominantly black/AA neighborhood in Boston.
(I say black/AA due to the large Haitian/Caribbean population.)
Let me tell you, along Blue Hill Avenue, there are a ton of churches, some actual dedicated “church” buildings, most are storefronts.
And everytime there’s some horrible tragedy, such as a drug related multiple murder (google Mattapan massacre, for example) all the preachers and ministers and god-botherers in the black communities stand up and decry this and that and the other, and demand that “we must pray harder” and all other kinds of useless BS.
Of course, when it’s someone from their own community murdered because of their sexual orientation, thundering silence for the most part.
When there’s some appalling example of racism, they thunder from the pulpit. Where there’s some appalling example of anti-gay bigotry, listen to the crickets chirp and the rustle of the passing tumbleweeds.
And as is almost universal, (save for a few brave souls) “There’s no comparing the suffering and discrimination of black people to that of homosexuals. The homosexual brings it on themself by their choice of an immoral lifestyle and turning their back to God.” (You hear that a lot from too many white churches, as well. ‘Jesus weeps’, as a Christian friend of mine comments, when any minister/reverend/preacher/et al makes that kind of comment)
Myself, I’m an atheist. Myself, I don’t care who or how you love. Or hook up with on a Saturday night. Or marry.
What I do care about is that if YOU do not enjoy the same rights that I enjoy, that’s WRONG. That need to be remedied, and that needs to be remedied right bloody now. And if the god-botherers of any color can’t see that, then they need to be called out. Loudly and incessantly.
This is a very good start, Mr. McEwen.
Well Done!