I work on LGBT community issues, as well as transgender community issues. I have, and will continue to work with LGB and T activists working on issues that effect transgender and LGBT community. From what I’ve learned and experienced within LGBT community, and activism within the transgender subcommunity of the LGBT community, I know why for many of us there is LGBT community activism; I know why for many of us there is transgender activism.
And, I would begin by having us look at Asian-Pacific Islander (API) community activism. There are differences between those of Samoan ancestry and those of Chinese ancestry; there are differences between those Americans who have familial or ancestral ties to Japan, and those Americans who have familial or ancestral ties to Indonesia. But along with differences between ethnic groups that fall under the API umbrella, there are also many similarities and many commonalities. And the commonalities include the discrimination they experience that’s based in racism. Many of those who discriminate against API community members can’t tell a Korean-American apart from a Chinese-American from a Japanese-American; these racists discriminate against all who have gathered under the API umbrella equally because they don’t see any difference between the subcommunities of the Asian-Pacific Islander community.
For similar reasons, there is a transgender umbrella, and an LGBT umbrella. We have gathered under community umbrellas in part because the prejudice and discrimination we face is based in how those homophobic/transphobic people don’t bother to differentiate between crossdressers, drag queens, feminine gay males, and transsexual women; apart. We have gathered under community umbrellas in part because the prejudice and discrimination we face is based in how those homophobic/transphobic people don’t bother to differentiate between masculine lesbian women, drag kings, and transsexual men. We, in their minds, all are in violation of societal sex and gender norms, so they engage in bigotry and discrimination against those who have gathered under the LGBT umbrella — they don’t see any difference between the subcommunities of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender community.
Everyone who is African-American doesn’t appear to be black. In African-American community, its community members are familiar with the word “passing.” Before the civil rights movements of the ’50′s and ’60′s, many African-Americans who could pass as Caucasians hid their heritage and ancestry. Many others who could “pass” as Caucasian choose not to publicly deny their heritage and ancestry. During the civil rights movement, those African-Americans who could have passed as Caucasian, but chose not to, stood with their African-American peers because African-American community was their community.
Many who are gay, but “pass” as straight, still publicly identify as gay — even when that subjects those folk to discrimination. Many who are lesbian, but “pass” as straight, still publicly identify as lesbian — even when that subjects those folk to discrimination. Many who are bisexual, but “pass” as straight, still publicly identify as bisexual — even when that subjects those folk to discrimination. And, many who are transsexual, but “pass” as natal men or women, still publicly identify as transgender — even when that subjects us trans folk to discrimination. Sometimes, it’s not about individuals, but about the “we” of community.
With legislative or regulatory language, there is no way protect against discrimination of the gender identity of transsexual people without protecting the gender expression of genderqueer people and crossdressers. When a newly out transsexual comes out in the workplace, protecting gender identity doesn’t protect the gender expression of someone who is still legally not the sex and gender to which these someone’s identify. If an employer defines an individual as male, but the gender expression of that individual as female, the lack of protection of gender expression means an employer can fire someone in the first year of transition — assuming a transsexual follows the transition standards of the Harry Benjamin Standards Of Care. One cannot separate, for the protection of transsexual people in the workplace, gender identity and gender expression without providing employers a loophole for firing transsexual people early in transition.
But not every individual who belongs to subgroups that fall under the sociopolitical transgender community umbrella chose to identify as transgender. It’s equally true that not every individual who identifies as gay or lesbian chooses to identify as members of the LGBT community umbrella.
And, this is true in other sociopolitical umbrella communities. Not every individual who identifies as Chinese-American, Samoan-American, Korean-American, Japanese-American, Indonesian-American, etc. choses to identify under the API community umbrella.
Sociopolitical umbrella communities still exist even if individuals who could define themselves as members of a sociopolitical umbrella community choose not to personally to step under a particular sociopolitical umbrella.
[More below the fold.]The common interest in protecting the gender expression of feminine men (to include feminine gay men), masculine women (to include masculine lesbian women), and all people who choose to stand under the transgender umbrella is probably the most important impetus for why transgender community activism exists. Gender expression is the commonality that binds transgender community and its activists.
And gender expression isn’t just a transgender issue. For example, school bullying of those males who don’t conform to societal sex and gender norms for masculinity are presumed to be gay, school bullying of those females who don’t conform to societal sex and gender norms for femininity are presumed to be lesbian — it’s this kind of bigotry that makes gender expression a broader LGBT community issue.
If sexual orientation becomes a protected class without gender identity and gender expression, then peers and employers can discriminate against or harass males for appearing to those peers and employers as too feminine, or can discriminate against or harass females for appearing to those peers and employers as too masculine. If gender identity and gender expression is protected without protection of sexual orientation, then it won’t be gender expression that will be a tool for firing those not conforming to societal sex and gender norms. It will then instead be that those who don’t conform to societal sex and gender norms will find themselves being defined as gay or lesbian, and that definition will leave them subject to discrimination based on perceived sexual orientation.
It’s advantageous for people to organize under umbrella community designators to address issues related to their commonalities. It’s advantageous for broader communities to focus common issues that effect broad numbers of people because numbers do matter to legislators and regulators. This is a truism for transsexual, genderqueer, and crossdressing people who choose to fall under the sociopolitical transgender umbrella; this is a truism for LGB and T people who fall under the sociopolitical umbrella for the LGBT community.
Umbrella communities are an aspect of community building. Building bridges between large numbers of people who associate themselves with subcommunities in a broad coalition — under sociopolitical umbrellas — means there is a greater pool of activists to draw upon to address common community issues. Broad community formed under sociopolitical umbrellas create opportunity for solving common community issues for the broadest range of community members — to result in the broadest range of legal and regulatory protection for the broadest number of human beings sharing significant commonalities.
Those involved in the practical considerations of drafting legislation and regulations know that language which just picks/addresses the issues one narrowly defined group fails. Just as legislation that protect against discrimination of Chinese-Americans but not Japanese-Americans would leave gaping holes where Chinese-American could be discriminated against because an employer or peer could perceive as Chinese-American as a Japanese-American, there are holes in protecting people based on sexual orientation without protecting against discrimination based on gender identity or gender expression. If government or employers designate sexual orientation as a protected class without defining gender identity and gender expression as a protected class, that leaves legislative and regulatory holes that all LGBT community members can fall through.
And too, language that is not based on broader, umbrella definitions is going to be exploited by people who wish to divide the umbrella communities that share notable commonalities. Does anyone remember the what the happened with regards to the Employment Non-Discrimination Act of 2007/2008? The division of community that occurred didn’t even benefit the gay, lesbian, and bisexual people who were left in the bill when gender identity (to include gender expression) was taken out of ENDA — we still don’t have a federal law that protects based on sexual orientation, let alone one protects on sexual orientation and gender identity and gender expression. Community numbers, and broad community solidarity, when pushing for freedom, equality, and justice — for civil rights — matter.
Transgender activism exists because people in groups that fall under the sociopolitical, transgender community umbrella have common issues that can be addressed by common legislation and regulation. Transgender community members who fall under the sociopolitical, LGBT community umbrella have common issues that can be, and should be, addressed by common legislation and regulation that protects LGBT community members.
And, there are other models of sociopolitical umbrella communities working on common issues — the sociopolitical API community being one example of such a community.
There is a case to be made for transgender community activism, even if a significant number of transsexual people don’t want to themselves fall under the transgender umbrella. There is a case to be made for transgender community activism within LGBT community, even if a significant number of transgender people don’t want to themselves fall under the LGBT umbrella.
Those transsexual people who don’t wish to identify as transgender are not required to identify as transgender — but at the same time, transgender community activists are equally free to push forward on legislation and regulation that addresses the transgender community issues based on the community commonality of gender expression. That these transsexual people don’t want to align themselves with transgender community activism won’t stop transgender activists from working on transgender community issues; it won’t stop transgender community activists from working on LGBT community issues.
The transgender community, as a sociopolitical umbrella community, is here to stay. Transgender activists are here to stay too.
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160 Comments



Nothing in politics is so temporary as something declared permanentWe absolutely do not need the “help” of the gay and lesbian movement to win our rights. We won everything we have without that help, and we will ultimately succeed in our efforts without it as well. We are much, much closer than people have been led to believe by all the scaremongering and propagandizing of the TG “leadership”. We most certainly do not all stand together or hang separately. Quite the opposite.
We don’t need you to finish our work. We are very close to getting it done, if only the GLBT would stop interfering. Transsexual men and women can achieve their goals through standardization of rules with regard to paperwork. That is 90% of the issue. And that is certainly nowhere on the GLBT’s agenda.
The TG must change all of society to “succeed”. The legal equality that derives from equal consideration under the law of our birth certificates and other forms of identification will be forthcoming for us, but only if we are detached from the agenda of the the GLBT, and the TG especially. As long as we are chained to an agenda of destroying the “binary” we will never, ever have our equality. And it is not our fight in the first place.
Anyone who stands in the way of our equal rights is no friend of ours, and reveal themselves to be interlopers with our worst interests at heart. It is amazing that there are still a few people out there who think that those who defame and silence really care about us and our struggle.
We can do this ourselves. We are strong, intelligent, vibrant people. It is time to stop begging rights that are ours by birth from people who have no business owning them. It is time to stop begging crumbs from the master’s table.
We are a free people, and we will not accept your chains.
Pleas, may I know what have you sociopolitically done……for transsexual people’s freedom, equality, and justice?
Please, where can I read about your civil rights activity, and the work you are doing?
Very seriously, I’m asking what are you actually doing for those you identify as members of your community towards their civil rights? For their access to healthcare? For their ability to change their gender markers across the U.S.? For their ability to change birth certificates to update the sex/gender marker and name?
Please, tell me what you do — you’re saying you and those who you identify as your peers need no help, but what are you doing yourself for the generations of transsexual people that that will come after you?
I’m seriously very, very curious about your personal activism regarding transsexual people.
It’s not an agendaThe binary is the actual social construct, variation is the actual reality. This is also not a LGBT agenda, but something that’s probably far more scary for the American bigot: Evolution.
“Will be”Nice horoscope, probably same worth.
You easily produce a lot of extraordinary claims without any evidence.
Just a hint: Other bigots won’t care that you detached from the “GLBT agenda” (again revealing), as they will still assign you to the groups they think you belong to according to their standard.
Your talent seems to be hiding nonsense in powerful language. LGBT aren’t the people who don’t give you your rights. If you don’t need the LGBs, then how could they bargain away your protections? And why did that work, if the resistance to LGBs would be higher?
Yes, you are free, but you were never forced to wear any chains. Thinking that you are so powerful on your own sounds like delusions of grandeur.
*that* is the deal.
Wheat from chaff, Autumn.
Wheat from chaff…
No you can’t
No you can’t. You are not going to change a single law or regulation without the help of the straight, cissexual, cisgender lawmakers. And why would you expect them to help you? After all, it’s not their fight…
Your contributions in the latest threads…… Reminds me of nothing so much as the abuse directed against “Furries” in some fantasy art web communities. “Oh, if only it weren’t for those freaks, other people would see our Hot-Elves-in-Bondage/Klingons-Playing-Poker drawings as Real Art! THEY’RE to blame for our social ostracization!”
However, this is not so. As far as Joey McBasher is concerned, there is no distinction between L, G, B, or any variety of T. Jimmy McTolerant is only slightly more likely to draw lines. To the larger society, anyone who is not a heterosexual whose gender expression matches their karyotype, falls into the same category. If you want equality in that society, you’re only going to get it by working with other “deviants”.
No, it’s not their fight but…they depend on us for our vote. That’s the leverage that will help change laws.
No, they don’t depend on youThey usually depend more on people who don’t like you or don’t care.
Great post, Autumn!This post is really well done. I’m working on something similar, but this just blew my draft out of the water.
Let Transsexuals goSince so many transsexual people can not get along with the transgender/bi-gender/two-/spirit/gender-queer/gender-variant/crossdressing/drag queen/boi/drag king/transvestite/etc. etc folks who embrace the “Transgender Umbrella” perhaps it is time for the two factions to go our own ways.
I’m post-transsexual and I don’t need a T to have a place in the gay and lesbian community. I have L for lesbian.
My heterosexual sisters and brothers of a transsexual history are straight. Why would they want to be part of the queer alphabet soup? Except maybe as liberal friends and allies.
When we tried to be nice and asked for the simple respect of “Transsexual and Transgender” we were told that was too much to ask.
I hear things many times worse regarding post-transsexual women and men who just want to get on with their lives than I generally hear for all but a few post-SRS sisters.
All we have to do to hear a transgender identified person channel Raymond, Prince and every other anti-transsexual bigot is suggest to that person that a sex change operation really does just that and that after we feel far more like the sex we transitioned to than ever before and that life is really different afterward.
Oh, how the hate streams forth after we say that.
And I say this as a lesbian, who will in spite of all these fights, will sign the letters make the calls and demonstrate for passage of a trans-inclusive ENDA.
I’m just fed up with the way transgender people treat post-transsexual people.
Bring on the clownsI am a total ditz. Please remember that. The problem I see is not the divisive perspective of various sectors on all sides of these gender issues but rather the huge majority of citizens that believe in civil rights but can’t quite comprehend how to be fair to everyone. I’m not talking about the bigots and people with moral indigestion but Joe and Jane Smith average citizen. While they may not know the difference between a drag queen and a limp wristed feminine gay man they can tell the difference between something acceptable (to them) in the workplace and a clown.
ThanksThank you for posting this. I was linked to what I saw as a really hateful and transphobic piece on transsexuality – written by a transsexual woman – this week that made me really upset and I’m still processing it. After reading about how the only reason anyone would ever be a trans activist is because they’re angry they can’t pass (seriously, this was the author’s position) it’s nice to have this wonderful reminder of how important activism is.
I have no desire to get in fights within my own community. But I will absolutely stand for trans rights, defined in the most inclusive way, every chance I get – even if that means pissing off some people within the community.
My transsexual friends — that you would define as transsexual people/people of transsexual history……that also define themselves as transgender activists include Cecilia Chung, Mara Keisling, Masen Davis, Donna Rose, and Marissa Richmond. There are many more besides those five — that’s just an off-the-top-of-my-head grouping of transsexual people who identify as transgender.
If there is a transsexual community, or a community of people of transsexual history, it would be a community that overlaps with transgender community; these groupings aren’t as separate and distinct as you’re implying these are.
And again, you can choose not to gather with others under the sociopolitical transgender community umbrella, but because you choose not to gather with others under the sociopolitical transgender community umbrella doesn’t mean all who would fit your definition of transsexual/women of transsexual history choose to follow your example. Nor do they all choose to embrace the language for community of transsexual and transgender that you would choose for community.
As I stated at the end of the essay above, the transgender community, as a sociopolitical umbrella community, is here to stay. Transgender activists are here to stay too.
I didn’t come up with the idea of a sociopolitical transgender community umbrella, but I am one who buys into the sociopolitical transgender community umbrella model for activism. One of my biggest influences of how I approach activism is Cecilia Chung — she’s been a mentor to me.
And too, even if I accepted your model for community identification and community activism — which you know I’m not accepting, but for argument’s sake let’s say I would — my changing of position on community identification and activism wouldn’t change the minds of very many other transsexual people who identify as transgender community activists.
I’m not going to change your mind on community identity and activism, and you’re not going to change my peers or my mind on community identity and activism. So, the choice of what you do with the information about transgender community activism, to include transsexual people who choose to identify as transgender activists, is really at this point up to you.
Autumn Those People Identifiy As Transgender By ChoiceThey chose to say they are part of some transgender community.
Outside of dictatorships and cults people can do that.
They can also choose not to be part of the Transgender Community and the transgender community does not have the right to claim them.
I use cult because I was born into the Catholic Cult and escaped it. Now the Catholics may claim that since I was involuntarily baptized as an infant I am always Catholic.
It is easy to see that as oppressive. The idea that post-transsexuals have to be part of the transgender cult is equally oppressive.
We like anyone else have the right of free association.
Further I have heard viler insults from the transgender community than I have ever heard from anyone not associated with the religious right or a hand full of radical/lesbian/feminists.
You aren’t using your knowledgeLiterally.
You and I, Suzan, are pretty oppositional on a lot of things, but normally you think things through and are able to separate stuff better than you have here.
You are socialistic, I’m more capitalistic. We meet in our agrarian area.
Think for a moment. You know damned well that an individual’s identity only extends to the limits of their skin. After that, it is their affinity group that kicks in. And affinity groups are entirely voluntary.
Just as your affinity for socialists doesn’t mean you have to ascribe to every socialist machine — I doubt you’d approve of Stalin’s socialist ideas, for example — does not mean that you or they are any less socialist.
Suzan, underneath all of this horseshit is the same stigma that was perpetuated against others that has long been perpetuated against transsexuals.
You are helping to argue an essentialist doctrine, Suzan.
THink on it for a while.
When you see someone stand upask them why they are standing up.
Ask them how much they really care about making lives better.
How much does Aria Blue really care about making lives better for trans folk?
What’s our measure? How much is she willing to sacrifice to achieve it?
Is she willing to forego her ideology? Is Autumn? Are you?
Ask our leaders — it doesn’t matter if they are inclusive or exclusive, to be blunt. Ask them what they will give up to achieve their goal.
IF they don’t answer you, then the answer is nothing. And how much of a leader are they if all they will sacrifice is a few hours sitting down before a laptop banging out words?
They don’t have to go out and pull people from burning buildings. THey don’t have to work themselves to death or into ill health helping the homeless or the destitute.
They don’t have to take a bullet.
Are they willing to do those things, though? Are they willing for the changes they seek to happen for someone not even born yet?
Are they willing to say “I don’t care about me.”?
If they aren’t, then they are only doing this for themselves.
Don’t rely on your guesses. Don’t use only comparisons.
Ask them. Directly. Pointedly.
Ask me. Ask Autumn. Ask Pam.
Let them tell you. And then, after you have heard them say it, then you can watch to see what they do, and you can hold them accountable for it.
Maybe all they can sacrifice is a few hours online banging out a post. For some, their lives — for whatever reasons, good, bad, or indifferent — are limited. But if that’s what they are doing, are they banging out posts about how bad things are for them, or maybe all they are doing is saying “this is wrong!”?
Where are their solutions?
What have they done to solve the problems they see? Are they just bitching into the aether, or are they taking action to effect the change they seek, helping to organize or to move forward the goals they seek?
Leaders seek solutions. Leaders make sacrifices. Leaders devote themselves, online and off.
Find out who is who.
I’m actual more of an Anarcho-SyndicalistThis is why I believe in people’s rights to choose their own affinity groups.
If post-SRS people with transsexualism choose to joint with the transgender community that is their right.
But they do not have the right to speak for those of us who choose to disassociate from transgender as umbrella.
Transgender identified people don’t even want to start using transsexual and transgender, which is such a minimal request, such a trivial request for respect on our part.
Why should we stay as part of a group that refuses to respect our not being transgender and after SRS not really being transsexual anymore?
Post-Transsexual men and women got along just fine prior to this whole “Transgender as Umbrella” ideology glommed on to us.
We really don’t need y’all that much.
A trans-inclusive ENDA isn’t going to do anything for me. Things like Living Wage and the employee Free Choice Act as well as the ERA would have a greater impact.
As would same sex marriage.
*sigh*Then I was wrong — you don’t understand the nature of affinity groups.
An affinity group cannot speak for anyone other than those in its group. Fundamentally so, that’s their structure.
So now you are making a false claim.
The overall community has moved far and a way from using either transgender or transsexual — the shift is to the simpler and shorter Trans by itself, because that encompasses the whole range without singling out individual elements, since there is so much overlap. These are not cut and dried, black and white, fixed and readily structured groups. They don’t want to use them because they are not enough, they don’t work, anymore than just transgender works. And in ten years it’ll be something else yet again.
They are far more amorphous — in part because so many of them are still developing their own language and semantic structures.
Anarcho, eh? And syndicalist? Oi! Woman!
And what is with the hyper essentialist surgical stuff? Seriously? Morphology is destiny?
Let’s be frank, as well, shall we? An inclusive non-discrimination act would benefit you, It benefits cis folk, so why wouldn’t it benefit you?
THe living wage act would benefit trans folk if they could get jobs. So would the Free Choice Act — if they could get jobs.
You are choosing to ignore intersections, and using arguments of privilege, Suzan. Most unlike your foundations and actively oppositional to some of your philosophical outlooks.
Can’t stop yourself can you Dis?Your casual dismissal of the importance of SRS for actual people with transsexualism is a major part of the problem.
It represents the contemptuous dismissal of something people with transsexualism find vital (and your attitude is representative) is part of the problem.
Now you can feel free to channel Raymond or the religious right and put me in my place.
We don’t need you folks.
We didn’t need you in the years before the transgender movement came into existence some 20 years ago and we don’t need you now.
Y’all are actual extra baggage when it come to post-ops obtaining their rights and I don’t see much reason to support people who fall so easily into modes of verbal abuse.
There is so much misdirection and misinformation hereI hardly know where to start…….
Those who refuse to learn history are doomed to repeat it.
As far back as 1997 (and probably long before that but I’m just sticking to direct experience) Gay Inc has sabotaged, subverted and actively worked against civil rights for trans people………and that has never changed, just the tactics. I was one of those who caught Gay Inc, with a red hand pulling the smoking gun from the cookie jar back then.
The right was not the enemy of women of history until the current crop of transactivists made it so. Again, I can testify to this personally from direct experience. The roll back of acceptance of the womanhood of women of history did not begin until the current crop of transactivists started telling congresscritters they have dicks……we begged them not to. We had overcome the Raymond influence back then, now it is reborn.
I know the op status of almost every major player in transactivism today. That would not be true if they weren’t running around telling everyone. This is the problem in a nutshell. 15 or so years ago the assumption of finding someone had a trans background was they were post op or soon to be one……and that is non threatening to the majority of binary non trans people. Today the immediate assumption is you have a penis and claim to be a woman. This is a direct result of transgender activism and THE reason it will always fail. Why even in a democrat controlled congress and executive branch even a watered down joke like ENDA could not succeed. We had potential support on the far right 12 years ago, I got that directly from one of the most conservative Congresscritters ever to walk the Hill…..you see I can talk to them and the irony is I am to the left of Obermann and Maddow. We actually had 3 to 1 support of the general public over the LGBs back then, HRC ran the polls and shit bricks over it.
Transgender activism today is attack attack attack, no quarter, no prisoners. And no room to talk reasonably….ever. Autumn, you are one of the worst offenders.
We were simply trying to rewrite laws, you insist on changing the social structure itself first when you are a tiny tiny minority……. No common sense whatsoever. You have literally left women of history no other option but to oppose you just to preserve what you have not destroyed already. Most of us believe in fair play and civil rights for all but you insisted on being our enemies.
SNEAKY how Autumn mischaracterizes transsexual people’s concerns as “just wanting to pass”, when what they are really saying is they need medical rightsAutumn,
(Nice work sneaking anti-transsexual sentiment into your LATEST RANT)
I give you one thing: You’re kind of smart
Smart enough to paint the transsexual community in this article as:
For you using this analogy I say: SHAME ON YOU!!!
What I read from the transsexual community who commented on your last 4 blog entries titled “Defame Transsexual Women Part 1, 2, 3 & 4″ was that they wanted medical rights, legitimacy, understanding, respect and accurate representation.
Yet in this TG 101 copy and paste article you conjured up you dismiss their entire outcry for understanding as “they want to pass”.
“Passing” is not what transsexualism is necessarily about. It’s about being neurologically intersexed. It’s a birth condition. Or does Gay Gender Theory only teach you about gender queers? That’s would make sense because Gay Gender Theory seeks to erase transsexual education. You truly are out of touch with transsexual issues. So here’s a thought: Stop pretending to be an expert on transsexualism and stick to gay and transgender issues.
All this does is create more anti-transsexual sentiment in the gender non-forming communities who want to break down the gender binary, when transsexual people actually do fall into the binary
For someone like you who professes to want “unity”, it’s amazing how all you have done the last few days is further divide.
You really are as dangerous to the transsexual community as I’m reading.
Please show some kindness to the transsexual community, your falsehoods hurt more then you apparently know
Trans Men?What are YOUR requirements for a female-to-male person to be considered “post-op?” I’m willing to bet it has nothing to the reality trans men have in the world.
Dismissal?No, Suzan, you don’t get to derail this.
There is no casualness to this, no dismissal to this. You think there is, then you had damn well better walk it through.
Especially given its me; that I am, in fact, one of those people for whom it is vital, and that I am a transsexual; that your implicature states otherwise; and that you seem to have forgotten the damage of essentiliasm.
Yes, go ahead and say I’m going to channel Raymond. Go for it — or have you forgotten she is essentialist? Still. Can’t stop myself? I’m not the one using a bugbear of trans people to combat the very thing that bugbear did to make them such.
You are.
Now I’m extra baggage, and you are saying I’m verbally abusive? Me.
So, wait, now, let’s look at this for a moment.
I, a transsexual person who requires surgery, is now considered extra baggage by someone who has had surgery, and I’m the one being verbally abusive.
and I, a transsexual who requires surgery, am the one who is saying essentialist things similar to Raymond while you are the one who is citing post operative as a fundamental division point.
Your hypocrisy, Suzan, stuns me. Congrats. I had thought significantly better of you.
Well, time to drop that link, huh?
Damn,I could sworn they banned you already for transphobia, Gloria.
Rule of Five appliedhttp://www.derailingfordummies…
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http://www.derailingfordummies…
Wait what?They depend on the vote of only 1 in every 500 people? That is the estimate of transsexual demographics that fits your definition of Transsexuals isn’t it? Lynn Conway’s one?
Because Gays and Lesbians are 2.7% of population. A lot more votes there.
And Intersex is 4% of population, more politically powerful in numbers than Transsexuals or Gays and Lesbians! Hindered though by the fact that currently many do not know they are Intersex but that’s increasingly changing as Intersex visibility is increasing.
And the minimum number for non-transsexual Transgender is 2%-3%. About as powerful in votes as Gays and Lesbians and much moreso than Transsexuals!
And the Same-Sex-Attracted figure comes through at 10%-20%. My oh my do they have political power! Mostly untapped of course…
And the higher estimates of non-transsexual transgender get as high as 10%-20%. Held back by closeting and internalised transphobia so far but thats changing.
If you are relying on the legislators relying on your votes to win through and you cost those legislators the votes of those other groups you could very well end up badly sunk.
Meanwhile uniting broad-spectrum ITBLG would radically alter the political shape of the country even on minimum estimates and win us all our civil/human rights.
breaking a personal rule here50% is a hellva lot bigger percentage of the voting population than whatever figure you cook up for GLBt….
Lesbians and women of history should be pursuing rights as women with the womans movement rather than with TGs and gay men. Your logic. And for once I agree.
ERA now.
Otherwise I will not rise to further baiting by you and the person from Az.
I’m sure I’ll be purged like everyone else who disagrees with Autumn soon enough.
SGD?SuzyQ,there’s people from every possible subset that Transgender may potentially cover that, mostly from bigotry, do not want to be associated with the rest. Using all the possible identifiers in a row, even in acronym, would be awefully unweidly.
However when discussing the issues that cross over us all what about the new term getting increasing usage in Australia of SGD Sex and Gender Diversity. It has Diversity right there in the title.
Doesn’t the use of that term avoid all the problems with Transgender? Avoid all the problems with those transseuals who do consider themslves transgender and those who do not? Avoid all the battles over which stereotype gets to be the dominant stereotype? Doesn’t it respect everyone?
If respect is the issue then does not SGD which avoids privileging any identity over everyone else or define anyone else and directly recognises diversity right there in the title show respect to everyone?
Isn’t that a better solution than: AINITTCTTCTTGQGFNAGCDDKDQBGBF?
and in case you think thats just a keyboard thump thats:
Anatomical Intersex
Neurological Intersex
Transsexual
Transgender
Cisgender Transsexual
Transgender Cissexual
Transgender Transsexual
Gender Queer
Gender Fluid
Neutrois
A-Gender
Crossdresser
Drag King
Drag Queen
Bi-Gender
Boi
Femme
Did i miss any? I’m sure i left out heaps still!
Or maybe we could go with SGD and cover the issues that cross all those with a single fair inclusive unbiased non-favoritising respectful term?
Actually i somewhat agreebecause you are women and your womanhood needs to be acknowledged and respected and women are still not yet equal when they should be.
Cathryn have you looked at these figures? http://www.abc.net.au/news/sto… Ignore the transphobic headline and check the stats, they show some very interesting patterns of sexism and violence and transphobia! And you can imagine how much they made visiting my family in queensland more than a little frightening!
And of course there’s the problem that the ciswoman at the AHRC roundtable was there to plead to be able to keep all people that are or ever were transgender or transsexual people out of womens spaces. The same problem occurred in written submissions too.
They used pretty familiar arguments.. transsexuals co-opt women, womens bodies, womens identities, womens progress and womens spaces, just change some labels abd they’d be anti-transgender arguments heard here at PHB. Against their anti-transsexual hate the people standing up for transsexuals and women and men of transsexual history included bi-gender identity people both transgender and Intersex. At the roundtable the compassionate understanding and reasoned arguments of Bi-Gender people went a long way to support the rights of transsexuals.
We aren’t all your enemies Cathryn.
A purge seems unlikelyWhen you’ve been posting the same sort of comments for more than a year and a half. I don’t feel like going back and reading all of them, but I’d bet you’ve been predicting your imminent banning for almost as long.
Ahh neuroligically Intersexed!Just like Gays and Lesbians and Transgenders!
What? Huh?
Yep!
http://aebrain.blogspot.com/20…
Seems that neurologically Intersex is a diverse phenomena which connects ITBLG!
Now let me mention that i do recognise the need for many people to get access to body modification on health grounds. I actually include in my activism fighting for public funding for hormones and SRS!
It may surprise you to know that i know Bi-Gender people with body modification needs.
I know Anatomically Intersex people fighting desperately for proper healthcare and the gender binary is actually preventing them getting some treatments!
ISGD healthcare issues cover a wide swathe of people. Including Intersex Infants needing protection from abusive disasterous surgeries of forced guess-based sex assignment (something it seems few here ever discuss!), something made wrong for the same reason denying puberty blockers is wrong, it removes a choice from the individual effected!
Delve a little deeper and you find things are more complex, and yet more simple, than you thought!
“Let Transsexuals go”
No one’s stopping you from leaving. The door’s that way.
Some of us are doing that, too . . . NOW is transinclusive, and transsupportive – having come a long, long way from the time when there was some concern among women’s rights activists about lesbians in their midst, back in the mid-1960′s.
I am a card-carrying member and supporter of NOW, and I am pretty sure you are, too, Cathy.
The NYCLU and ACLU are trans-supportive.
Even the gay rights activists know that the gay vote alone isn’t a big enough bloc (and when 31% of gays vote for anti-gay Republicans, that bloc is significantly diluted). Having NOW, the Civil Liberties Union, and other progressive and liberal supporters is good. We have supporters among religious groups: Quakers, Unitarian/Universalists, and a number of churches in Christian denominations that are marching to a different beat from their national leaderships, a number of Reform and even Conservative Jewish synagogues.
When I look at my own activism, it involves my work in the trans community, mostly locally and in New York State. My pro bono work continues to be assisting trans individuals with judicial name changes in the lower Hudson Valley counties. I work with ESPA, Housing Works and the GENDA Coalition. I am involved with the CLU, currently chairing the LHV chapter board. I am active in my church (Community Unitarian Church in White Plains), which is a welcomig congregation. As I mentioned, I’m a card-carrying member of NOW. And there is more (okay, I’m recording secretary of my city democratic committee and a district leader).
Providing a trans presence outside the trans community, working on issues that may not always be directly trans-related – there is an impact on other people.
The thing is, knowing you in real life, I know you have a history of doing a lot of positive work. Your work in the reclamation and reconstruction of a religious tradition that was destroyed by Christianity is certainly worthy of praise.
Your point about involvement with NOW is valid – it is not my strategy to work solely with T and LGB people, either. The broader the coalition is, the better.
So, yes, one of the things I’ve been working at has been advocacy for the RHA bill in New York. It may not be a “trans” or even an “LGBT” issue, but together with GENDA and Marriage Equality, is among the bills I hope to see passed by the New York State legislature at some point in time.
I have to apologize for not really doing enough on federal issues, but I know there are people out there whose primary focus is federal.
What would you have us do Autumn?Go chain ourselves to the White House Fence?
Come out on Ophrah?
March down main avenue wearing a huge “T” and carrying a rainbow flag?
Out ourselves in our local communities?
Tell our employers and co-workers that we were assigned a different sex marker at birth?
You totally miss the point of what it is to be born transsexual as opposed to having a gender varience or being a cross dresser or being a gay male that performs drag etc.
We are not here trying to change laws or force others to deal with our special circumstances.
We have no wish to set ourselves apart from the target gender we aspire to by demanding the right to transition, or demanding that others make room for us at the table.
We transition… privately if possible. We dont want to make a fuss, we dont want to create waves, we want to be PART of the binary, not a seperate category outside the binary, forced into a gay ghetto where even they disrespect us.
We dont want the limelight Autumn .. we leave that for you and the transgender. Your activism and the GLAAD media reference guide lump us into your definition of transseexual, a definition that has no meaning to us.
Making waves goes entirely against what men and women born transsexual are trying to get away from! They dont want to be known as trans, or transgender, they want to be just plain ole men and women. We have no wish to be anything more than just that, and activism is entirely counter productive to that goal.
ok .. you can all go ahead and tell me to crawl back under my rock now.
BatsMy womanhood is respected and acknowledged, thank you so much for your condescending acknowledgment of that. I live a woman’s life with a woman’s body and even am better known for my feminist and religious work than for any trans connection.
And Bats, I do NOT require your approval for any of that, never have, never will and it never was your place to comment on it.
To whatever extent you support the transgender dogma and GLAAD guidelines, you are my enemy. Deal with it. I don’t want you beaten or discriminated against but being human is the only commonality between us and that’s exactly the same as with a mass murderer. No woman of medical history was ever served by associations with bi-gendered people, quite the opposite in my years of observation and experience.
Not so wolfgangleaving is not the issue, being mis-represented even when we do leave is the issue. Say for instance Maryland wants to leave the USA, and the feds say .. hey! go ahead and leave ..were not stopping you.. BUT .. we will still represent you, and we will never recognise your leaving.
Well thats not leaving at all … is it?
You know Chris..you sure have a lot to say on this subject for someone who is not transsexed ..
am I wrong?
Your point?What, only trans people can speak to this?
Especially with the deep undercurrent of homophobia that runs through your stuff?
After all, wasn’t you, Leigh, who just said very recently that all transgender people are just gay men?
And don’t you call this a gay site?
And don’t you make that all seem like a really bad thing?
Hmmm.
Hypocrisy isn’t new for you, but its amazing how quick you turn to it when you just don’t want to deal with things you don’t like.
All the time I hear this said that the binary hate on us
…. that women of history are only protected by their stealth
that if we were out, the bigots and the hatemongers and the christian right will beat down our doors and murder us in our beds …
What outright twaddle …!
My “history” is known in the rural community I live in, a rather redneck community I might add.
I was not born into this community which already makes me an outsider in their eyes, but I have lived here 10 years and not once in all that time has anyone ever misgendered me, or challenged my status as a woman, villified me, terrorized me, gone out of their way to make me feel unwelcome, or in any other way maligned me for being what I am.
Now you can call me a bold faced lier all you like, and I am not saying everyone likes me, but just as with all communities, there are those that do and those that dont, but they dont go out of their way to get in my face.
A few years back a gay man moved into town. He was very likable, tried to mix into the community, tried to offer help to neighbours, offered to fix up the town using his architectural skills. However, he was very out and proud and that just did not sit well. Not to say the townsfolk ran him out on a rail, but after 4 years he decided the city life was more his cup of tea.
I am still here. I prosper, am well regarded, and not in the least bit threatened.. go figure!
ignored dyssYou bait and you lie and you twist
Just goYou and several others have been asked that if you are not part of this issue, or this community, then why do you keep coming back? Thousands of times. You keep whining that you don’t want to be included, but you are always coming around to be included. If you don’t want to be included and we don’t want you included, then the discussion is over. Good bye. Don’t let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.
But, maybe the issue is that none of you have a life and your only entertainment is to act like spoiled children here on PHB, because you haven’t been banned again. ”Mommie! I don’t want to eat my spinach!” Then, don’t eat it. We can care less. None of you have been included in my work for over a decade, and with the arrogant attitudes you have, I never will.
You got your wish. Now, go.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.Definitely seems to be the only thing holding us together at times.
eh .. which part of what I said above did you not understand?
was the concept too hard for you too understand?
Do you require a picture ?
Do I take it then that you will be instructing the GLBT and GLAAD in their media reference guide, to delete all mention of the word Transsexual?
I am assuming you have the necessary authority to make the decision to allow us to leave your community?
When I check the guide and see the references to “Transsexual” erased, I will bother you no more.
Fair Enough?
This conversation is rather heated . . . I have learned a lot over the years in another forum from discussions with Suzy. Many of the disagreements among the camps are semiotic – there are different underlying assumptions as to the nature of nature.
In those years of discussion with Suzy and others, I’ve evolved my weltenschaung. I have a somewhat different kind of “essentialism” to add to the discussion: While we live in a society with an artificial binary construct of sex and gender, we are born different, we are born “other.”
Based on what I know of the most recent science, this otherness involves a brain that develops in significant structural part along one ontological development path, and a genital duct development that develops along the other basic ontological path. This may be based in part by one or another genetic “predisposition.”
This physiological otherness leads to more than one identity, and more than one understanding of those identities, based on different self-perceptions of what the disparity between internal identity and the societal assumptions based on genital tract development.
How we are recognized by society depends a lot on societal assumptions.
The following is a quote from an article in the December 1997 IJT by Louis Swartz:
The “science” in 1965 did not have enough information about the “otherness” of trans people. The assumption made was that trans people belong to the sex indicated by their birth genital tract development, and that they suffer from a mental illness that makes us believe we should belong to the opposite sex. Based on this erroneous assumption, the commission recommended against any redesignation at all.
But we know much more now. In the interim, some court cases have held that sex designation should be based on a number of factors (see, for example, Richards v. U.S. Tennis Assn. 93 Misc.2d 713 (1977))
In John Money’s view, stated the court in Richards:
Other work of John Money has been discredited, but this is a fairly decent morphological description of a post-op WBT. WBTs are still “other” but post-op are more physiologically aligned with female anatomy.
This resulted in Dr. Richards being given the “reasonable accommodation” of being recognized as being female.
There are the 1997 and 2000 BSTc studies that show transsexual individuals have brain structures that are in the range associated with the sex of their identity.
In 2008, researchers identified two separate “genetic predisposition” areas that have a statistical association with trans development.
The science confirms the “otherness.”
Suzy has popularized the acronyms WBT and MBT (though she has disclaimed the actual coinage) – and I have adopted those terms in recognition that trans people are not ever members of their originally-assigned sex. The initial assignment itself is an error.
The way I see it, one does not become a woman by having surgery, one is a woman who gets surgery to better align one’s genital tract to one’s brain development.
(And while I really, really need surgery, I am unlikely to ever have it because fo medical issues.)
With that in mind, and while we never cease being “other,” there are several different places where a line can be drawn to allow us “reasonable acommodation” to eb classified as members of the artificial construct of binary sex assignment.
Ultimately, self-determination is probably the best course, perhaps coupled with the opinion of a medical and/or mental health professional.
There are also those, particularly younger people, who are increasingly embracing their “otherness” and prefer to identify as “genderqueer” or who reject the binary altogether. I don’t know how many of these, had they been born over a half-century ago, would so identify – or would they have identified with the binary they wee not assigned?
There have been semiotic paradigm shifts related to the increase of knowledge of the phenomena, much as the whale, once classified as a fish, is now understood to be a mammal. Same whale, better understanding.
Where does this get us in the political discussion? I think still under the umbrella, or outside it, as our own paradigms take us.
No longer is it a penny for one’s thoughts, but a total of 20 cents!
Since You aren’t “rising”….… and since I’m being told that generally reasonable people are going to turn against me, and since this is all about attack attack attack, what the hell.
I’ll do an in depth posting.
“Gay, Inc.” That nameless, faceless, amorphous blob of corporate powers led by predominantly wealthy, ethnically eurocentric, masculine individuals except for that time in the late 1990′s and early 2000′s when it was headed by predominantly wealthy, ethnically eurocentric, feminine individuals, and that makes a really comfortable target not because of the corporate privilege but individual people within that machinery who used their prejudices and their privileges and leveraged the privilege that came with being monied, has been working against trans civil rights.
Do we want to look at how they did that? Do we want to note anything more than the underhanded, lowdown dirty deed that one organization did with the help of a trans organization now all but rotted away?
Do we want to look at the language that was used, the descriptions of how “crossdressers” were holding transsexuals back, of heteronormative thinking run rampant in both communities that stemmed even further back to those confirmed non-ops Marsha and Sylvia that you insinuate above were men, not worthy of the same protections as women that you are, who were driven out because they refused to be “classic transsexuals” as well as toe the line of Henry Hay and others during the GLF split?
Of course not. That might mean that you were stuck in a way of thinking that traces back to that time, Cathryn. That you didn’t adapt to changes. And of course that had nothing to do with other events in your life that wrecked your trust in others.
Nah, let’s not do that one. Let’s look at the whole “The right wasn’t the enemy” bit, shall we? You know, the part where you literally blame the oppressed for making things worse on themselves. For creating the oppression they face. Because it couldn’t possibly have been that going as far back as the early 1950′s they used trans people as the stand ins for gay folk, that they in fact raided a bar that was a known hangout for people who were of varying gender expressions under the claim they were raiding a gay bar. OR that Anita Bryant used language that condemned trans folk when speaking about gay folk. No, of course not, because you found a single isolated example of Pat Robertson saying something nice, when two years before, 8 years before, 12 years before, and multiple times int he years after he said negative things. ABout Trans people. WHo he thought were little different from gay people who just couldn’t stand to be gay.
I mean, it couldn’t possibly have been a sort of Iranian solution, could it? That since they thought of us all as gay as that it was ok to change our sex since that made us straight.
Nah, of course not, Cathryn, right? I mean, the right’s never been that heteronormative in its thinking at all. They’ve never thought that a top is more masculine than a bottom, after all.
I find it hilarious that you say you begged them not to speak about flesh in order to avoid rekindling Raymond’s essentialist screed, then you literally step right up and use the exact same essentialist argument she did. You aren’t like her, but you share the same ideals, the same mental concepts she did, and here you are condemning her while doing the exact same thing she did.
Hypocrisy is one of your greatest tools, Cathryn. Like your claims to be oppressed while using the very idea of cis privilege to claim you are no longer trans or intersex, forging a path where a lifelong medical condition based in brain structures is magically changed by working on something other than the brain and goes away, even though the brain structures are the same.
Yeah, Cathryn, that’s really fucking sharp of you. Yeah, yeah, I know, you’ll trot out your usual ableist drivel like the whole “ever notice so many of the big activists admit they are mentally ill? No wonder its messed up!” comment over at TS-SI where you posted that piece and attributed it to a man, when it was a woman that wrote it.
Then you use assimilationist horseshit, not realizing that part of the core of the current trans movement is anti-assimilationsit, and you speak of how important it is to be non-threatening.
Yeah, it is important not to wear that short skirt, right? (Damn, that was cold hearted of me, wasn’t it? Even hypocritical. Too bad you aren’t rising to the bait, or you’d be able to address that point. Assuming you got it, which at this point, girlfriend, I don’t think you do.)
Hey, what can I say, though. I’m just doing what you say I do. Attack attack attack, no quarter, no mercy. Its not like we are in a culture war, and that trans people are told by other trans people spouting transphobic shit that they are just a bunch of perverts and fetishists, that unless they do something that’s only been around even remotely effectively for about 80 years, practically only for 60, that they simply aren’t good enough to meet your heteronormative and sexist requirements based ona fundamentally ethnocentric set of worldviews in direct opposition to the worldview of the world that existed at the time of the religion you have so painstakingly recreated (and we won’t mention the rebuff when I foolishly offered my support to you, despite our disagreements, in the attacks on that).
Then you say you were just tryuing to rewrite laws, imply that you weren’t trying to change the social structure.
Um, Cathryn, are you daft? Really. I’m asking because if you don’t think that rewriting the laws doesn’t result in changing the entire social structure, then you are daft.
Yet your version of common sense leaves that out, doesn’t it, Cathryn Platine, miss Radical Bitch, who is neither all that radical in her conformity and desperation to fit in, nor really all that much of a bitch because you are just as big a softie as I am and just as reticent to admit it?
So with all of that, all that hypocrisy, all that pointed ignoring of history, all that use of the very things that are oppressing people, all that glossing over all the hard work of hundreds of people, most of them post operative or surgery tracked transsexuals that you have called gay men, to slowly unpack all the privilege and isms and deeper shit that led you to think the way you have in the last ten years.
Because of course things can’t grow and change. We must remain bound to our traditions, and leave them unexamined.
Of course, at the end, you make things clear. You no longer believe in fair play or civil rights for all, since those of us that do are now your enemies.
Since you aren’t rising, you won’t mind that I point all of that out, will you, taking it just from your post above and the work of people like Susan Stryker.
Because if you did, well, that would be rising to that person from Az. And you won’t do that.
ooooh, boyI’ve been trying to follow this without commenting…let me see if I can sum this up.
1) Much of this seems to boil down to who has what “equipment.” And that “gender” = the equipment that you have…in other words a strict gender binary as opposed to a gender continuum.
2) It seems to me that the ability “to pass” really is a central issue in this and has been from the outset.
Am I right or wrong?
Mind you, in the ethnic construction of “passing” that I’m familiar with, those who can and do pass wouldn’t even be bothered with these postings.
fail
Assimilationismyes, please peddle more of that, Leigh.
Pretty please. I love to hear that sort of stuff. I mean, it worked so well for what, 85 years? Who cares about that little moment in the dawn of prehistory when it meant that those who didn’t fit in properly didn’t get their civil rights.
Who cares that if we were to change the details of your story to a light skinned lass — say, such as myself — and a dark skinned lass — say, such as Monica Roberts — that the concepts of privilege become starkly more visible, that the nature of the oppression you think doesn’t touch you is suddenly less, despite the fact that the tale you tell is a tale of someone being driven out by discrimination, which is, after all, the thing we are trying to end.
Yes, please talk about that more. I can’t wait to hear about it. Maybe I’ll tell a few of my personal experience stories, as well,and we can compare notes.
I’m sorry, what was that, Leigh? You were wondering why there’s a subtle change in the way I’m dealing with you? Why yes, now that you consider it, there has been.
I’m not playing around anymore, Leigh. I’m tired of indigestion. Now I’m on safari, and I’m not taking trophies or counting coup.
Especially when you couch your transphobic remarks in homophobia, Leigh. Cathryn called for civil discourse. It doesn’t get more civil than this.
Or more pointed.
Even “Gay, Inc.” is not monolithic
Even “Gay, Inc.” is not universally out to sabotage trans rights.
I work with the Empire State Pride Agenda in coalition, and the ESPA of today is no longer the ESPA of December 2002, when Jeff Soref (a major contributor of theirs) refused to shake my hand when I went to congratulate him after his “win” on the non-inclusive SONDA bill. I remember and repeat the story to help thepeople at ESPA today remember that there was a time during which we were not working together.
But that organization has redeemed itself, and most trans activists who work with them today know that they have been fully on board for at least the past five years.
Two years ago, GENDA and Marriage bills received equal attention from ESPA. Last year, because of circumstances, GENDA actually got more of Pride Agenda’s time and effort.
If we talk about “Gay, Inc.” we have to remember that it isn’t all HRC. I will not be giving HRC another look until they make a sacrifice of Mr. Solmonese, who I cannot trust. But there are other organizations that have a record of being trans-positive. We are not always thrown under the bus. We just have to remember the past and try to fix things as they come along.
I don;t blame you for being suspicious – once burned, twice shy, and all that.
The construction … is the same in terms of passing, which is why I’m so hateful of it.
THe argument you describe is slightly more complex than that. There is, in fact, a great deal of essentialism, but that’s used more as a tool, since the core issue revolves around who agrees with a particular philosophical outlook and who doesn’t.
Assuming they stick around for much longer, you may see certain things that help to explain the problem a little better, since part of the problem is that it’s really about who is icky and who is not, and the nature of the venue forces them to more carefully couch their terminology in more socially acceptable and dogwhistled formats.
For example, when Aria Blue uses the term “transgender”, it is a dog whistle for her to say “gay men in dresses”. Something I pointed out here a long time ago using her own words from her own site. THe same applies to Leigh, who did it much more recently.
THis is an internal conflict in the trans community that revolves around privilege, ethnocentrism, heteronormativity, homophobia, transphobia, and sexism.
Kinda like what happens when you put die hard capitalists and socialists in the same room and then listen to the arguments over the question “which is the best economic system?”
more baitingIsnt there a tos warning for this ?
My post was genuine
Are there any so blind here that they WILL not see?
any so deaf that they WILL not here?
I think not.
None of you WANT to hear any of this. Thats whay we are told to leave.
None of you have ANY interest in the hearing what we have to say, you only have an interest in silencing us and speaking in our stead.
The whole article itself is nothing more than a bait trap designed to enforce the warnings issued on the previous articles about Ashlet Love by allowing the baristas grounds to ban those they dont agree with.
Prove that isnt so?
baiting
Then let me ask this…If you are “a woman of history”, then why are you even bothered with this entire series of postings?
And dyssonance above is right. Some of the most racially bigoted people that I have ever met have been extremely light skinned “black Americans” who can pass for white (or close to it.
Same for homophobic and “straight acting” gays.
And I’m supposed to think that it’s supposed to be different in the trans community?
Here’s a task. Explain your position to me…I have an idea as to what this is all about buy I’m more curious than anything and I don’t have the time (work, other interests, etc.) to read posts with 200+ comments, quite frankly; your (and not trying to be personal) life doesn’t mean that much to me.
Thank you, dyssonancethis is kinda sorta the impression that I was getting.
Quite welcomeI’ve done a lot of work over the last couple years in probing and analyzing this ongoing issue, in part because it’s fascinating to me to see how the internalization aspect affects the discourse when, strictly speaking, all the sides are still dealing with the deep levels of stigma and trying to find a path that makes their individual lives easier.
As a light skinned AA, I’m very familiar with all the varieties of this, and I’m very certain that you will see a striking resemblance to certain discussions that I’m fairly sure you and I have both either been part of or witness to in our lives.
You task me?In answer to your first question, because I am a woman of transsexual history, some 30 years, and because it effects me directly when misinformation is disseminated about what transsexualism is (read this analysis of the GLAAD media reference guide)
http://pamshouseblend.com/diar…
Dyss and others refer to everyone that doesn’t agree with her as bigots and transphobes, homophobes etc .. ad nauseum .. its a standard transgender shout down for all of us. Agree all you want.
My life is not meant to impress you or anyone else. In fact I was hesitant in posting what I did. I did so to get the reaction to it… which was just more dyss baiting me to get me banned.
My life is my private affair, with the caveat that I have transsexual history and that at least in my local community, that history is widely known. So, for me it comes down to protecting the way I am percieved, and not just me but also my husband and family, for if it becomes widely percieved that transsexual are nothing more than gay, then that can have a direct negative consequence to me.
Beyond that, if I am to be represented by the GLBT BECAUSE of my history, then I should have a say in what that representaion is about, and that gives me as much right to speak as anyone else.
You dont like that? take it up with the GLBT
I find it fascinating……that anyone who transitions would want legislation that would in any way, even peripherally, coerce society to accept them. That is tantamount to admitting they have failed in their transition and are unconvincing in their target sex/gender, and isn’t that the goal?
How could coerced acceptance give anyone who transitions any joy?
There is much talk about educating the mainstream. I would ask just how much education do the activists think is necessary? After all, the media is flooded on almost a daily basis with news reports, talk show interviews, and documentaries about the transgender; it’s been that way for years and years now. Wouldn’t it be prudent to think that the mainstream is educated and have formed an opinion? As an example, in spite of all the brouhaha this past week on what is defamation and what is not, just this morning I read an interview about you, Autumn, in which you are quoted in the Washington Post just two days ago as saying you told the psychiatry department at a VA hospital, upon transitioning:
“…I don’t know if I’m a transvestite or a transsexual, or something in between…”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…
Perhaps you are using the word transvestite because you didn’t know any better back then when you transitioned and were just repeating verbatim to the interviewer what you said to the shrink. But, I have to assume that the interview didn’t take place “back then.” All things considered wouldn’t it have been more appropriate to have used the word crossdresser than the more derogatory term transvestite? (Know, Autumn, that I don’t care what term you use, but it’s more than apparent that you feel transvestite is a derogatory word and fully support the GLAAD Media Reference guide. I don’t support it completely, but I’m sure you can see the surprise in seeing you use that term in an interview published on 1-11-11 in a major US newspaper…considering all the criticism some have taken from you when they use it. Or, maybe we can just write it off to the own personal choices of identity you were struggling with at the time.)
It’s hard to believe that the mainstream is not educated on what it is to be transgender…the activists seem to me to have done a splendid job of informing and supporting positions that make the term and concept of transgender crystal clear.
Does the mainstream need more education, and if so, why?
What more activism and education could be done to sell the mainstream on bi-gender, gender queer, cross dressing, genderfuck, drag queens/kings, androgynes, pangender, trigender, ambigender, non-gender, gender fluid or intergender…oh, and transsexual…that has not already been done in order for them to embrace and understand what transgender actually is? Being that now a staggering 20% of the world, according to Battybattybats, are now GLBT in one way or the other it would seem there are more than enough people to meet any political objective that might be required. Couple that with the education the mainstream gets on every media outlet about transgender and their wishes, the question is asked why are the political objectives not being met?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T…
I responded directly to Aria’s point……where she stated:
She also stated:
You’re saying rights don’t need to be won at all, but Aria is saying rights can be won by folks on her side who don’t identify as transgender. Again, we’re discussing apples and organges here — I just asked her what she was doing to “win [transexual people's] rights” because she said the work for civil rights needed to be done.
It seems that you have a real beef with Aria’s assumption regarding what transsexual people need to do next with regards to civil rights, but you’re not addressing Aria when she made those comments that rights need to be won. Instead, your comment is directed at me for agreeing with Aria that work needs to be done.
Talk to Aria about her point of view too, okay?
I don’t doubt your post was genuine.In fact, I’m counting on it being genuine, Leigh.
I’m depending on it being a true and factual statement on your part, and that you really and truly believe it is the best way to do things.
I ask the similar questions, though. How many fail to see the assimilationism there in your post?
How many fail to see the argument that it is better to accept crumbs for yourself than to fight for another?
How many are so deaf that they cannot hear you saying “you are hurting me, now, and I don’t care about others, later”
Cheer up, though. Assimilationism is still very popular these days. It is all the rage in Gay, Inc.
And you are wrong, Leigh. It is not the message, in and of itself, that we mind. We don’t even mind the tone of it.
What we mind is the lies, is the prejudice, is the sexism, is the privilege, is the oppression that you bring in with you when you are speaking your message.
We get it. Transsexuals who have surgery are different from other kinds of trans people.
You don’t.
baiting
WBT/MBTJoann when did I ever disclaim the creation of the WBT/MBT meme?
Other than to say it was a collaborative idea created by my partner Tina and myself when we started a post-op mailing list 10 years ago?
Indeed I am the owner of http://womenborntranssexual.com as well as editor/author of the material posted there.
I am nearly 40 years post-transsexual and an old hippie dyke with left wing anarchistic politics.
I am also of the school that thinks surgery makes it real and removes us from the “transgender community” (Unless we want to stay there”
It doesn’t mean we have to act hateful towards transgender folks, just means we are different from them.
But…
That’s pretty much the perception anyway, from what I can tell (and that’s not the fault of GLBTs either…or do you think that it is?). I’m not saying that your community shares in that perception, I will take your word for it that it does not share in that.
I would also assume (in fact I know!) that some transsexuals are LGB (and I am actually seeing a little straight privilege leaking out of your posts).
I’m not claiming you as a transgender community member.I agree you get to self-identify, as I stated in the piece. There continues to be a transgender umbrella to include transsexual people because many transsexual people identify as transgender.
That said, people who you would define as transsexual do identify as transgender, and from a historic perspective, those transsexual people are the ones who developed the sociopolitical model for transgender community activism that you don’t appreciate.
If you were annexed into the transgender community against your will, please blame your peers from the 1980′s and ’90′s who came up with the model. For example, work done on behalf Mary Horton by trans people came up with the phrase gender identity or expression. She was an employee at what’s become Verizon. Back in the ’80′s (or maybe early ’90′s…I can’t remember exactly, but I have the data somewhere), when she asked transsexual people in community what language should be used for a Verizon anti-discrimination policy, they suggested the gender identity or expression phrase.
I have Horton’s story digitally saved somewhere — I think on my old desktop. I should find it and post it at some point to give the historic reference of how the phrase gender identity or expression came to be the standard antidiscrimination phrase of transgender community activism.
But anywho, you basically have your peers from the ’80′s and ’90s’ to blame for the transgender activism model. Again, I didn’t dream up the model, I just bought into it.
That about says it allIn any time of change, there are those who don’t want change to happen, and they will fight to stop it.
This post from Leigh quite vividly defines the primary division of this period in our history, and illustrates the motivations that drive it. She’s described the “old school” model of transsexualism beautifully. In the old school, hiding was a fundamental part of transsexualism. You could not separate out hiding, passing, and stealth from the concept of changing sex. Any discussion of the process centered around that goal. Achievement of that goal was the central pursuit. The suggestion of being “out” as transsexual was laughably absurdist in the extreme. It would be like making an omelet without eggs.
In old school transsexualism, there was no room or need for political activism. If no one knew you were transsexual, there was nothing to discriminate against. If people knew you were transsexual, you’ve failed as a transsexual no matter what the consequences. The transition process always included disappearing from the life you knew in your old sex and emerging in a new life as a member of a different sex in a new place, a new career, and a new identity that bore no connection to the old one. It was as near to reincarnation as a human could experience without experiencing death itself. It’s simply the way it was done. If someone found out about your history, you repeated the process. You disappeared from that life, and reappeared someplace else where no one knew you. The way you dealt with discrimination was to hide from it, and failing that, to run away from it. There was no other model.
An outside observer would see that as a pretty bleak existence of living in fear. Abandoning all you knew. Leaving friends and family behind. Losing careers and credentials. Having to keep secrets. Having remember fabricated pasts. Always fearing being discovered or clocked. Always scanning the eyes of people around you for signs of being read. Having a slip, a traced record, or an overly observant co-worker completely overturn your world and force you to uproot your life once again and go to a new strange place, work to reestablish yourself, and try to find new friends once again. It does not sound like an enviable existence. One would think that anyone trapped in such a cycle would eagerly hope for a chance to escape it.
Yet, as I noted, in any time of change there are those who don’t want change to happen. They become comfortable with the life they’ve come to know. They’ve achieved success in a model and don’t want the model to change. They’ve invested their life getting where they are, and they don’t want that investment rendered valueless by the efforts of others. Having struggled for so long to climb the mountain, they don’t appreciate others paving a road to the top.
What does it mean to cling to the old school model of transsexualism? It means that only those who “pass” can transition. Others dealing with the constant pain of gender dysphoria are left to suffer. It means opposing efforts to elevate the public profile of transsexuals in general. The ability to hide has always been largely made possible by people just not knowing what a transsexual looks like. Every transsexual who comes out increases the chances of those who are stealth being outed, because they show people what to look for. Clinging to the old model means trying to force everyone else into the closet. It means trying to silence those who speak out. It means trying to quell any kind of political representation. It means doing everything you can to get people to shut up and making the general public aware that we even exit. It means trying to keep our numbers low. It means keeping transition an exclusive club. It means keeping “transsexual” a rare and exclusive class. It means throwing up barriers and obstacles to transition so that only the most committed and suitable can possibly hope to make it through.
All this, while the suffering of others is out there. They know what it was like. They know how miserable it was for them to live as the wrong sex. Why would someone be so heartless as to say that only they and a handful of people like them should be allowed to escape that misery? Why should they say that easing this pain in a person’s life must include abandoning and recreating every aspect of that person’s life? Why would they actively condemn those who’s experience with gender challenges causes them to choose different avenues to dealing with them, some more part-time, and some more public?
My answer some might call ad hominem, but it is not. Leigh is just an example. This cuts to the very problem that plagues our community and any attempts to advance. The problem is narcissism. Clinging to the old school model reflects the grandiose false self. ”I am superior to all others and I am transsexual, therefore transsexuals are superior to all others.” It reflects a sense of entitlement. ”Keeping a low profile on transsexualism helps me maintain my stealth, so the whole world must work to keep a low profile. Political activism must stop.” It reflects a lack of empathy. ”I don’t care if others have to suffer with GD, all that matters is my transition and my comfort in life.” It reflects a sense of demeaning others to elevate one’s own ego. ”Drag queens and crossdressers are perverts and don’t deserve to be associated with transsexuals.”
Narcissism in the transsexual community is the subject of a whole ‘nother essay, and perhaps even a book, but it is a problem that plagues us. I say it’s time we address this problem at least to the point of not letting it drag us down. There will be those among us who don’t want there to be progress. There will be those among us who fight to stop our social advancement. We can’t let them hold us back. We need to recognize them for what they are and ignore them. They can drop out and go on hiding if they want. The age of stealth is over. For the rest of us, it’s time to march forward into the new model of lives of openness and equal rights for all.
Leigh, I wish you well in your life in hiding, wherever that rock may be.
Intersex, intersex…only a very small percentage of those who are intersex even know they are intersex (some endocrinologist don’t even consider chromosomal anomalies, in and of itself, to even be intersex)…and even a smaller percentage of that group have gender issues. From reading their blogs, most who do know they are intersex want to remain independent from the GLBT. Yet, slowing but surely, more and more, little by little, everyone who is intersex is being captured as the glbt becomes the glbtI…whether they like it or not.
HeartCan PHB get some sort of heart or like post button?
baiting
since you are genuine in your questionsI am not gay nor lesbian. Never haver been. The majority of other women of history that I know are not gay either, and its debatable that most are not gay .. (lesbian perhaps)
So do you think it fair that we are considered GLBT purely because we have a transsexual history?
Do you think it fair that activists do not make a distinction when speaking for the collective?
Are you in fact engaging in some sort of reverse discrimination by accusing me of straight privlege?
Your definition of transsexual isn’t the only definition for the word.Unfortunately for your sense of well-being, your definition of term transsexual isn’t the only definition of the term for the English speaking world. If the term term transsexual was ever defined as you define the term, the English language did to the term what it often does to terms — the meanings of words can change over time.
And as I told SuzyQ above, if you don’t like that transsexual people are included in the transgender umbrella, blame transsexual people from the ’80′s and ’90′s who came up with the sociopolitical transgender community model for transgender activists. They are the ones who included people that even you would define as transsexual as people who can choose to stand under the transgender umbrella.
You can’t be made to identify as transgender, but that other transsexual people do sociopolitically identify as transgender creates a situation where transsexual people can be considered to stand under the transgender umbrella. I didn’t create your dificulty with terminology and activism — blame your transsexual peers from the ’80′s and ’90′s.
Again, I didn’t create the sociopolitical transgender umbrella, others before me did — others that would fit your definition of transsexual came up with the sociopolitical transgender community model. I just buy into the model others before me created.
We got rid of it.People complained that the disliking of comments was getting out of hand.
First of all, thank you for trusting that I am genuine in my questions.
I don’t know enough to make a determination here although it seems to me that some sort of distinction is necessary.
No. If you are a atraight woman, then why wouldn’t you have straight privilege? Unless you actually don’t.
Ah well.Could just have a like button like Shakesville does. Oh well I was only have serious, mostly just wanting to show appreciation for Dyss’ post without much to add.
Just poking my head in hereI wanted to thank you for your posts in these threads. Though I’m cis, I am AA and I understand this issue a lot better because of your postings, within the framework of colorism/passing which is much more familiar to me.
Rebanned.We’ve now banned your IP Address as well, Gloria 123/Mary Sings Truth.
Well, there was…when you said this:
I would have thought it obvious to you by now hedon
I don’t respect you and therefore have no desire to debate you. We went that route and I demolished you, but of course you see it the other way .. so whats the point?
.. mocking your foul discourse to others is much more entertaining ..
Evidently, you violated the Terms of Service Rule alluded to in Section A; Line #9…which says:
9. Activities such as (but not limited to) flaming, trolling, comment-spamming, and threadjacking are prohibited. You are responsible for familiarizing yourself with these terms using the provided links.
It is not the Service’s intent to discourage you from taking controversial positions or expressing vigorously what may be unpopular views; however, PAM SPAULDING and the Baristas reserve the right to take such action as it deems appropriate in cases where the Service is used to disseminate statements which are deeply and widely offensive and/or harmful.
So, evidently, you mangy bitch, you were widely offensive for simply telling that person you did not respect them and had no desire to debate them anymore, preferring to simply point out what they were saying to others. We all know that not respecting another and failing to debate another “is deeply and widely offensive” to those trying to bait you.
You know as well as I do that those responding to what you have to say, and all those hateful names they are calling you…aren’t offensive.
So…shame on you…you deserve it for having the gall to come in here and voice an opinion they don’t agree with.
Get with the program, young lady…now, take the bait or get the hell out of here!
Wonderful, LeighI’m genuinely glad for you that your life has worked out as well as it has, and it works for you.
Thank you very much for sharing your story — there is a compelling case to be made for what many define as stealth. Back in ’60′s and ’70′s, when the universities with medical schools controlled access to surgical interventions for transsexuality, the transsexual programs for these schools required that those in the programs significatnly change the geographic location. They also required that one have no contact with other transsexuals, former friends, an sometimes families as well, create new personal histories and identities for themselves, and live assimilated as what was often described as the target sex.
That transition/surgical model still works for many, as you’ve given us a clear example of. Again, thank you for sharing your story.
Error…this was aimed at Leigh. My apologies for posting under your comment.
My memory is apparently incorrectThere is evidence since at least 2002 of your 2001 coinage, so it looks like my memory is somewhat defective. What I recalled was a discussion in which you indicated that some unnamed trans man came up with the description of being a man born transsexual, and you developed WBT from that.
I will, however, happily attribute the coinage to you now and in the future.
Dang…I did post this under that wench Leigh’s comment. SNAFU again…
Well, maybe.There’s a basic internet rule of “don’t feed the trolls.” If you believe you’re being baited, then don’t respond — responding just “feeds the trolls.” Frankly, I don’t think either of you are really internet trolls — because both of you make points form the heart — but the concept of not feeding someone with a response that will result in the other person responding in what you probably consider an unresponsive or rude way seems applicable.
I know when I feel I’m being baited, I usually don’t bother responding. It saves getting spun up for a discussion that is going nowhere, or I feel is soon going to go nowhere.
You and Dys are pretty familiar with each other’s opinions already, and you’re not going to change her mind, and she’s not going to change your mind. You know as well as I do that all you get in response to responding to her is just more unresolvable anger.
So I’d just recommend you not engage in discussions with Dys if you believe she’s baiting you.
I called myself a transvestite for many years.Back in the seventies when I learned the term, it wasn’t considered a pejorative. Which is why I don’t find the film Rocky Horror Picture Show as that offensive — they used transvestite in a camply way, but in line with how the word was used then as a non-pejorative term.
When I first transitioned back in 2003, I was still using the term transvestite. I used the term as I was using the term back then as a possible self-identifier — I made it clear to Lisa Leff, who did the interview, that I now know the term is now considered a pejorative. So when I talked to Lisa, I used the term in the way I was using the term then, clarified my usage of the term, but she didn’t include my clarification in final copy of the article.
She’s a reporter, she writes per inch, and took snippets from our two-hour conversation. She didn’t post the full two hours of our interview, and the part where I stated that crossdresser is the appropriate term now was left out of the piece.
Enh, whaddoya’do.
I thought…that may have been the case.
Things ChangeFirst, nice article Autumn. For it remains true to this day that united we stand and divided we fall.
Ahhh, ye olde TSs vs TGs… When will this ever cease? So here’s my two cents:
I do not totally get it. So we have, what I believe are all ‘old schools’, women of trans history, wait, scratch that…women, getting upset over an argument which includes Transsexual with Transgender. Why would a woman even care is TS is included in TG? I mean really, if you are of history, but do not want to be lumped in the trans umbrella and just left alone, then, really, STFU, do not participate in these discussions, just be quiet and disappear like you say you want to do. Why are you arguing that you want to be left out of the umbrella and not trans-identified, yet in the same breath you want to ensure that it is known that Transsexuals are not TGs and that you will not be lumped in with TGs? It doesn’t make any sense. If you are of history and want it to remain hidden forever (aka stealth) that’s cool with me, but at the same time, you relinquish any say you have in any Trans discussion.
I’ve probably said it before, but it seems to me that the political climate we have today is completely different today than it was yesterday. And in today’s climate, Trans is not something that needs to be hidden anymore. So here we have all these Trans people who are able to finally come out publicly (which really, is the BEST form of political expression available for us) and in doing so are able to take a modicum of pride in who they are finally. This attitude and behavior seems to infuriate the transsexuals of old as it flys in the face of how things were accomplished in the past. I dunno, I wasn’t there, in the past, but I just cannot wrap my head around any other source of this in-fighting and outright hostility amongst ourselves.
Things change.
And come on, Transsexuals not included in with the Trans spectrum? Wake up, look around, and get a clue. You aren’t alone out there and there are LOTS of us (Transsexuals. Lots more for sure if you include all Trans).
I will continue to support all my Trans peers by doing what I do, and that’s by being me, publicly. This is how I advocate most effectively, by letting people actually know a Trans person rather than just an idea. And in doing so I advocate for ALL of the Trans umbrella, even the ones I do not like being lumped in with (CDs) and those I just do not like (Old-School TSs). You can disagree and not participate in the umbrella, but that will not stop me from speaking out as a Transsexual who is part of the broader Trans spectrum. If that somehow loops you into a community you don’t want to be a part of then you never really distanced yourself from the community to begin with.
Hi IraeNicoleFirst, thank you for the compliment.
Secondly, while I appreciate it, you should know that it is not a good comment.
While it isn’t baiting, as some have said, what it is challenges their entire understanding of the way the world should be.
And I am unflinching, and I am not being nice, and I am not giving them an inch.
There is a history involved twixt Leigh and I. We actually have several things in common. But part of that history also contains a lot of bad stuff on both sides — of efforts to hurt, of things said the shouldn’t have been, of subtle cruelties and little jokes. And then there is this huge philosophical divide that comes about not because of changes in the world around us, and change, always, is scary.
And it sits between us like a huge wall or perhaps a deep and wide chasm that at this point, no bridge can ever be built across, and so we are not truly talking to each other in this exchange.
We are talking to others. Like you.
But the sadness here is that we cannot come together, because the middle point in our two roads, sadly, is long past the time when it could have been found.
And as a result, you have two people here who have each lost out on a chance to grow and be bettered by the knowledge and experience of each other.
And that is a loss that we can ill afford.
There is so much misdirection and misinformation here says it all still………..
No homeless trans people around now Dyss? You seem to have a lot of time on your hands at the moment.
I know aria’s position very well AutumnI think you might be misconstruing what she means, or perhaps she never phrased it correctly. I will leave her to clarify that.
I absolutely am saying that Transsexuals do not need rights to transition and live a normal life in the gender binary under their target gender.
If the individual assumes they will not have to work to earn respect and that it will automatically be given, they are wrong. Furthermore, no law of any kind will change that. People they work with will never have to follow those laws and can freeze the person out without even saying a word.
If the person in transition has no hope of ever convincing others in the general public that they are their claimed gender, no amount of laws will change that either.
There will never be any such thing as transsexual rights that do not at the same time invalidate the purpose of transitioning. If you make it a sub group then the transitioner can never be just a plain ole man or woman, but rather they will be considered neither.
If however they have no intention of living a normal life as their target gender and are merely transitioning to be a transgender outlaw … well thats a whole different issue, because yes, they will need a WHOLE lot of laws.
Far too many, CathyI’m on bedrest. Seems I developed an infection that was aggravated in part by the stress that comes from doing my work. Rather interesting timing, as well — so much joy to come home from the ER to find all this going on and me supposed to be relaxing when “classic Transsexuals” and “Former transsexuals” are telling current transsexuals that they aren’t transsexual and causing them to give me calls in the middle of the night for help.
And if you detect a bit of good old fashioned rage underneath all of that, well, good for you. Might explain why after months of nil contact online, you and I are back here again.
As for misdirection and misinformation, well, feel free to explain. I realize you feel that saying it says it all, but I figure I can at least offer.
when you get to the bottom of the page where I said that my history is known in my local community
… you might want to offer an apology
…but I doubt you are big enough
No, I have no privlidge at all from anywhere .. just like most other folk on the planet
Your welcome
you as well.For assuming that by “hiding” she meant your history or your identity.
my name is Cathryn……..only frieds get to call me Cathy
and cue the wall in 3, 2, 1…Boom.
Just can’t admit you’ve got that knapsack, so no need to unpack it.
hey, informality works both ways.Sorry. Perhaps if you don’t want it, you won’t use it.
More baiting
Ah, see, we have a basic disagreement hereprivilege (as I am coming to understand it) is really…situational? relative? to your position in society.
Relative to those pre-op trans folk you would have some sort of privilege since you have transitioned (and you have had that privilege for quite sometime).
You’re NOT LGB, so yeah, there’s some privilege right there.
And while I do understand the need to demarcate between being transgender and transsexual, you are not choosing to be invisible; I infer that by your presence here at the Blend and your own comments about the community that you do live in.
Now if you choose not to be invisible, fine.
Thank you Autumn! I believe that was a genuine and heartfelt reply.
One night a couple of years back, My husband and I were at the local bar in town having a few drinks when I got into a conversation with the bar owner, a friendly woman who though she likes me is not all that fond of my husband. I think that what she asked during our conversation was quite telling, for she asked me if she could ask me a personal question, and when I said of course.
She started off her question with this ….
“When you were a gay man……….”
Do you see where this is going?
Does this give any insight at all into why those of us that transition do not appreciate the connection with the GLBT?
My reply was … ”I was never a man”
Her: But you …….
Me: you have an autistic son, many would call him backward. Do you think for one minute your son regards himself as backward?
Her: ..not at all ..
Me; then what makes you think that my birth condition automatically made me a man ?
and so it went, and so ended the conversation, amicably but very telling. Had she not been aware of my history, this would not have happened.
An apology for wishing you well?If you wish.
I sincerely apologize for having wished you well.
Better?
- Sam Vaknin
FailAs a journalist, and a subscriber to the GLAAD Media Handbook, you should have known better.
Fail.
Baiting…of the worst kind.
Says the person with 100 % percent such comments …
TranssexualI’m a transsexual too. You would no doubt take umbrage at that, because I’m also transgender in that I don’t accept the rigid gender/sex binary. But that’s your problem, not mine. You can’t control my identity.
Sort of but not quiteI first heard a brother describe himself as Transsexual to Male.
Women Born transsexual was more of a dig on woman born woman and a way of saying we were born with transsexualism and cured by surgery.
Here we go again.
You do not speak for all men and women born transsexual.
LOL!
Neither do you, and thank god for that.
Damn…sound’s like some good stuff you’re smoking!
Very curious…If you are transsexual as you say yet do not accept the “…rigid gender/sex binary” then why in the world would you want to change your sex/gender? Or, are you a transsexual who defines changing sex as essentially changing your presentation?
Why Should I care?All you are showing is the power of Transgender Inc as an imperialist force colonizing the willing and unwilling alike.
When ever I listen to these arguments I find myself asking, “Why am I bothering with these people?”
I mean I could be out with the Sierra Club lobbying against Fracking, or Code Pink, or raising money for Sea Shepard…
Something meaningful that doesn’t involve people who feel it is their right to claim me as something I am not.
Y’all are worse than the proselytizing Christers who confront people on the streets and public transportation demanding to know if they have been save, by the right pastor in the right church.
People in Transgender Inc create the wars and then act offended when a significant faction of post -transsexual women speak up angrily.
I’m sticking with my not name calling but damn folks make that one hard.
Batty I honestly don’t care about the names of all of Transgender Inc.’s colonies. I don’t care if Virginia Prince appears to you in visions and blesses you.
I still don’t want to join your religion no matter how much gender babble you throw at me.
(Let me do it for ya’ll:) baitingPeripherally coerce society into accepting them?
Well, for one, your assertion that changing the laws is coercion into acceptance is, demonstrably, wrong.
It may coerce tolerance, but it certainly doesn’t coerce acceptance.
Those are two separate things, and it is important to note that, since your question is founded on the faulty premse that doing coerces acceptance.
The faulty premise creates a faulty question.
But let’s look at why an oppressed group might want to coerce tolerance.
I mean, it could be that they are told they don’t look like people expect them to look. Maybe they have dark hair and the people they are trying to live among all have light hair, and so the only way a person can get a place to live or a job is to have light hair.
Are you suggesting, then, that they should dye their hair to fit in, so they can have basic necessities like a place to live and a place to work?
I have to ask you are suggesting that in order to clarify a point in your next query, which is seeking to find out if the goal of transition is to be convincing in your target sex/gender.
I find that idea utterly oppressive. The idea the the task of a transsexual is to be convincing as something places all the power in a cissexist society.
Susan, that’s the reason all the fighting is going on. THWe do not, categorically, believe that the goal of transitioning is to appease the people who are, as a group, oppressing us, both actively and passively.
You do.
THere is a comparative here, and it is in colorism, a field which I will encourage you to learn something about. You are saying, basically, that some people — who, through literally no fault of their own — who require very expensive surgeries and physical sacrifice that might run into the area of hundreds of thousands of dollars and that are all very risky (and I’m not yet including SRS, which it is already known for you is fundamentally required) — should basically not even bother to transition.
I’ll note that this does not surprise me — you were most supportive of Leigh’s comment to the same effect and you’ve said as much elsewhere before.
However, I will note that when you do that, what you are doing is taking the side of the group that oppresses, and you are blaming the group that is oppressed for it.
You are, effectively, saying that unless you are going to pass, you fail at transition, and that the whole purpose of transition is to convince other people that you are a woman (or a man, in the case of the guys).
Questions for you, then: why should you have to convince other people?
What is it that they should be convincing them of?
If they are women, then are you saying that all women have to convince other people they are such? And that all men have to convince people they are such?
I ask you those questions, because logically, what you are saying — or, more accurately, what is required for you to be able to say what you did, something called the implicature of your words, then it is foundationally required for them to not be what they are trying to convince people they are.
And I want to make sure that I’m wrong there, because that would mean that you just said that you and Leigh have successfully spent a large chunk of their lives convincing people that they are women, and you are, in fact, saying that you’ve done so despite being something other than a woman.
That’s all required in order for your question there to make sense. I’m fairly certain that like lisa when I noted to her that doing nothing is still an action (as many a bystander who has not taken action during a criminal action can testify), and there fore has consequence, you will not understand this, because you almost certainly do not have a grasp of sociolinguistics and you consider me to be a pathological liar.
You then ask how could coerced acceptance give any joy, maintaing the fiction that law coerces acceptance.
To that point, however, I don’t know. Why don’t you ask the women who have benefitted from laws passed that made it easier for them to credit. Or to buy a home. Or to break through the glass ceiling. Or get closer to wage equity with men.
Are you saying that society was forced into acceptance of women?
Are you saying that society was forced into accepting schools and pools and parks and water fountains where people with different skin colors can all be together?
I only use those examples because they are parallels — I’m well aware of the difference between trans issues and those, but there is an overarching question.
As a woman yourself, in a field that is dominated by men, are you saying that you coerced acceptance out of people in your field — or do they more tolerate you, like the examples that Leigh gives elsehwere here?
How much education is necessary? Oh, probably about 70% of the population as a whole, I’d say. 40% would be a major turning point that would lead to incremental gains at a fairly rapid rate, say fifteen to twenty years overall to reach that 70% point.
Of course, this is made more difficult by the efforts of those who work to counter education.
I find it intersting that you say the media has been flooded with stories on a near daily basis, and yet every major study of the media’s coverage has indicated that there has been more coveragein the last 6 years than in the entirety of the 40 years before it in the US.
That is, the wave you are seeing now is literally more information about trans people than was given out in all the forty years before it combined.
You can google some of that info yourself, and I suggest you do. It’s very informative.
Now, if the last five years has been more than the all the years before it, and long term post surgicial sorts like yourself aren’t even equipped to deal with the concepts of dominant privilege, intersection, and sociocultural affinity group dynamics — all of which are things that have had significant developments int he last decade that you’ve pretty much missed — what makes it so hard to believe that there is still education to be done?
People are still being educated about gay and lesbian issues — indeed, even you’ve shown a remarkable lack of awareness and knowledge regarding them. And they get waaaay more press and media time that trans people do.
I think there’s plenty of work left to do.
What more could be done? Apparently you havent’ been reading the articles you’ve been writing. You haven’t demonstrated any more understanding of whaht all those various groups are than any one else — the education part would be done if you did have a grasp on what it means.
Its a lot more work than you seem to realize, and that’s because you aren’t familiar with a lot of that stuff that has developed over the last several years.
Of course, it is “liberal” stuff, and it deals in the nature of oppression which you have in the past dismissed as just “playing the victim” without understanding it.
The rest I’ll let you confer with batty and Autumn on, but those things above? THose are failings on your part, Susan, and insteadof being willign to learn, you put a lot of effort into just saying how stupid all of that stuff is and keep on saying that it’s about coercing acceptance instead of legislating equality (and, therefore, tolerance).
“Transsexuals do not need rights ” -wow- i sure fu**ing do!“I absolutely am saying that Transsexuals do not need rights to transition and live a normal life in the gender binary under their target gender.”
how about a Gender Recognition Act ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G…
how about medicade for srs?(or obamacare- we’ll take it!)
(which you no longer need unlike some,including poverty level t people who seem to get apathy from you)
how about hormones and srs for trans teens/young adults who need to transition- now at younger ages (then most people could before)and their safety in schools?
how about the right to work while in transition?
how about the right to PEE while in transition?
“If the individual assumes they will not have to work to earn respect and that it will automatically be given, they are wrong. Furthermore, no law of any kind will change that. People they work with will never have to follow those laws and can freeze the person out without even saying a word.”
what bullshit.
it’s like saying African Americans should have just ‘shoved in there’ to go to school.gay people should just ‘accept civil unions its better then nothing’ hey women,no equal pay?
live with it,or say “pretty please”.
if there was a law bigots would have no legal option.
that is basic civil rights.
(but if it is about other people,
you apparently don’t care…..)
so stay out of my transsexual rights ladies.
some people need them.
you got yours.
should really be carved in stonechris from old Europe:
“It’s not an agenda The binary is the actual social construct, variation is the actual reality”
“No one gives a shit if you don’t believe in gender”
http://they-themself.blogspot….
(or: thou shalt not deconstruct the gender of another lest thou too be deconstructed)
!
one more thing…“Those People Identifiy As Transgender By Choice
They chose to say they are part of some transgender community. Outside of dictatorships and cults people
can do that.
They can also choose not to be part of the Transgender Community and the transgender community does not have the right to claim them.”
she’s right.
she has the right to be respected as a woman.
it’s not right to decide to “redesignate” her.
if everyone wants respect they have to give it.
she is part of the glb as a lesbian woman.
no bs.everyone here needs to respect each other.
and NO WAY am i backing down from that.
that is also basic civil rights philosophy.
Transphobic Tropes #4 – “My Theories Are More Important Than Your Experience”(from QT)
http://www.questioningtranspho…
How about getting out of my face .. you uncouth lout!
I am all for a Gender Recognition act .. Federal level only and ONLY on the condition it has absolutly zero GLBT involvement.
People with life threatening ailments cant get on medicare, why should SRS be any different? You talk as though SRS is hugely expensive when in reality it is the cost of a small to mid size automobile even by USA standards. And the fact is that if SRS was FREE, there are many of you that wouldn’t get it anyway.
cant afford hormones? what are they doing in transition? Thats half the problem here with people jumping in the lake before they learn to swim. It takes planning to successfully transition, but I guess you think everyone should be just given everything they ask for. We have homeless people out there from this last stock crash and we are only now starting to pull out of economic ruin, and you think everyone with every need should just be given everything free .. grow up!
How about the right to work during transition? .. how about ANY right to work, for ANYONE, Anywhere ? Are transgenders the ONLY ones out of work?
The bathroom issue… I have never once in 30 years and all through transition ever been refused to use the restrooms, why now is it a problem? I could hazard a guess but you wouldl’t believe it anyway
Go ahead and create your stupid laws .. see where it gets you. People will despise you even more than they do already, then what are you gonna do huh? go get a gun from your car and force everyone to treat you respectfully?
Fat chance ..
Thank youYou just stated everything I’ve always said you believed, Leigh.
It helps that I always said it because you had done so first.
Your sense of borrowed privilege, your ethnocentricism leading to racism, your classism, your bourgeois mentality, your sexist and essentialist throwback views to the same ones that informed Raymond, your lack of consideration or empathy for others, your simple thoughtlessness, your absolute ignorance of social oppression and your denial of such even existing.
These are the things you share with your compatriots. These are the reasons why you are given short shrift.
You will call this baiting, and that’s fine. At this point, you’ve done all the damage you can to yourself, and far more effectively than anything I could ever do.
Are there those that agree with you? Absolutely. I wouldn’t take from them or you the right to hold those views, those ideas.
Are you dinosaurs, though? Lost in a time an a place that has passed you by and left you out and that you now fear what new generation will do?
Yes.
Thank you. I’ve been waiting for this to come out.
And yetThe “I’m not TG G-Dammit!” crowd always comes off as the aggressors.
TG IDd Ts peeps go do some activism, and these stealth people come out of the wood work acting like they’ve committed some grave offense to the “stealth community,” a community without ties. And they misgender the TG IDd TS people, publicly ridiculing them, etc.
How can a TS person misgender someone? How is it possible to be that cruel? That’s some kind of bad craziness, right there.
And why is it that all of the angry non-TG TS people all seem to be MTF and no FTMs? I think you know why. I think we all know why. It’s because FTMs pass so well. They don’t have to struggle constantly with voice and other things. But even the most passable MTFs have constant reminders of their shortcomings as “real women,” for their entire lives. And those insecurities drive some of them nuts.
So remember that when we hear the familiar cry, “I am not TG, I am a real woman!” What we hear is someone who protests too much.
Clowns?That’s just some straight up hate speech there. Shame on you.
How many times…do I have to tell you, dyssonance, that you have no credibility at all, none, nada…with me. I also do not believe any of the claims you make…so quit trying to bait me.
With just two or three years behind you, in terms of transitioning, dyssonance, you are barely, and just very barely, a neophyte and, yet, predictably, you continually set yourself up as the be all; know all of not only any and everything to do with the debate at hand…but the undisputed authority on everything…period. That may sail with others, but is nothing but a pathetically vain attempt to gain prestige and attention to me, dyssonance. If you weren’t so antagonistic, it would be easy for me to feel sorry for you.
You hold the position of the transgender with regards to politics, the position of Autumn, and others who are transgender…a position that, among other things, viciously and routinely slams many post op transsexuals who might hold a different point of view…not all, but many. OK, fair enough. But, don’t try to preach to me about anything to do with transsexualism; you’re not up to it, honey; you just haven’t been there-done that yet; I have.
Take your rambling, pseudo intellectual, baiting somewhere else…it may impress some of your cohorts, but not me.
We don’t get to choose the science thoughAnd OII, the largest Intersex Organisation and unlike some one which only allows Intersex people as full members, rather than those which get filled up with doctors, is fighting for Intersex inclusion!
Regardless of how we prefer to think about ourselves, how we choose to socialise and how we choose to associate and how we choose to self-identify we cannot choose what the physical reality is and always has been whether known or not. And if the science discovers a connection between the causation of ITBLG then thats what the science shows.
Not by everyoneThere are cis women who do not respect and acknowledge any person of transsexual histories womanhood. They made that clear at the AHRC roundtable! There are countries and jurisdictions that do not do so completely or properly or at all.
I pointed out that i recognise your identity because a common complaint here is that others on the Transgender side do not. You like everyone else has a human right to self identify.
I ask now that you publicly acknowledge mine also. As well as my partners and many many other peoples. Just as you have a right to self-identification which i agree with you must be respected by Transgender Activists so to have i such a right and I ask you to show respect for that as i have shown for your own.
And i have transsexual friends fighting tooth and nail for their womanhood or manhood to be recognised by currently discriminatory laws and they are people i support and assist in their fights. It’s up to each of them to choose who they do or don’t associate with.
OK, but…The vastly overwhelming majority of those who know they are intersex are perfectly content with their birth assigned gender and are no more inclined to be transgender or homosexual than the rest of the population; those are simply the established facts; I have links on my blog that will prove that…so you are for putting the overwhelming majority of the intersex, who are straight, in with the GLBT, even though they are not gay, lesbian, bisexual, nor transgender? I’m sorry, that is just ridiculous.
And, with that said, and if you are right about OII, then I just lost a lot of respect for that organization.
As for the “science”, I’m a degreed professional engineer, I don’t argue with science. I do, however, question how the science comes about.
RudeThat just rude, and completely illustrates the point of transgenders like you.
We can still stick to reasoned calm conversationCertainly I can.
I don’t care about late-transitioning-hypocrite Virginia Prince. I nearly got banned from one of the largest crossdressing websites because i was very thoroughly critical of her transsexualphobia and Homophobia when people were trying to say only nice things about her in her passing.
I am talking about groups with clearly shared Human Rights issues and so it’s useful to be able to name and discuss the commonalities. People with Cultural and Historical ties including shared Indigenous cultural tradition. The Bi-Gender neurology information suggests people with Shared Biological Causation.
So your accusation that i hold my opinions because of an ideology or a reason-less faith or religion is false, a total missunderstanding of my reasons, my reasoning and everything i have ever had to say on this subject. My reasoning is pretty simple and I’d be happy to explain it to you.
Please do try and criticise my actual opinions and worldview not ones that i don’t hold.
How funny.This being at least the eighth time you made sure to say so, yet continuously forgetting that I already acknowledged such on your blog.
If you had remembered, you might have put more thought into your reply, presuming of course in the most positive light that you bothered to be thoughtful, which you generally avoid doing at all costs.
As for schooling you in transsexualism, well, lady, not only am I up to it, but I’ll dance circles around you while doing it.
And giggle.
I’m not interested in prestige, Susan. That’s one of the biggest mistakes you always make about me. I love it, myself, because I can use it against you at every turn, and you never see it (like above).
Incidentally, I am in no way an undisputed authority on everything. Hell, huge gaps. Especially in the mechanical areas and in engineering. For that I go to competent professionals.
Hmm. Funny, I’ve never used you. Unrelated, of course. Just funny.
I’m far more been there done that than you are, though. Even if you don’t believe it. And you know what’s great? Your not believing it has little to know impact in my life.
Which may be why I responded with all that pseudo intellectual rambling you dismissed so readily, without once bothering to even consider the questions asked of you — even to challenge their foundational premises.
I mean, hell, if it really was pseudo intellectual, you could do so rather quickly and easily. And if it was just rambling, then you wouldn’t have any problem demonstrating such.
But it is a field and an area that you don’t know jack about, just as I don’t know jack about engineering. But I know that area, and it doesn’t matter if you don’t believe me. It’s there. And anyone else who knows it will come through and see it and they’ll know what you refuse to.
And that’s the best part about responding to you, Susan. You make it easy.
Transition
Because I identify as a man, for the most part, and because my predominantly male brain requires a male hormone balance to function properly.
No. I take testosterone and I’ve had top surgery. I don’t plan on getting bottom surgery however.
Personally, I don’t consider someone who doesn’t get any medical intervention to be a transsexual, but if one wants to identify as such, it doesn’t really matter to me.
We may need to add sex characteristicsThis was something important that came up at the AHRC Roundtable. How an anatomicaly Intersex person can suffer discrimination not for their gender identity or their gender expression but because of their anatomical sex characteristics. And this was pointed out can be an issue for Transsexuals too. Whether it’s transsexuals who cannot for life-threatenng medical reasons get all the surgeries (like a friend of mine) or just partway through transition or someone who is able to choose not to have any particular surgery and does so choose.
Cross-sex neurology is cross-sex neurologyVast overwhelming majority? Comfortable with assigned gender? Could you quote the pertinent data of that?
Wouldn’t we expect to see, if there were no bi-gender gender identity neurological phenomena, a far higher amount of rejection of birth assignment of Intersex people?
Isn’t that a big part of Zoe’s point at http://aebrain.blogspot.com/20… ?
Now if Transsexuals are Intersex because of their cross-sex neurology and science finds cross-sex neurology in Gays and Lesbians then there’s nothing ridiculous about it.
Certainly…“Most persons born with intersex conditions are happy with their assigned sex, just as most persons born without intersex conditions are. Rarely, persons with intersex conditions find that their assigned sex does not feel appropriate; these individuals sometimes decide to live as members of the other sex. The same thing can occur, of course, in persons without intersex conditions. There is very little information about which intersex conditions, if any, are associated with an increased likelihood of dissatisfaction with one’s assigned sex.”
“Most people with intersex conditions grow up to be heterosexual, but persons with some specific intersex conditions seem to have an increased likelihood of growing up to be gay, lesbian, or bisexual adults. Even so, most individuals with these specific conditions also grow up to be heterosexual.”
My blog has links to perhaps five or so sources. You can find the post here:
http://tgnonsense.wordpress.co…
Also on my blog, with regards to OII, they have said this:
“As a group, intersex people are not transsexuals…OII is opposed however to the concept of pathologizing intersex people who have been assigned the wrong sex at birth by diagnosing them as having a gender identity disorder.”
http://www.intersexualite.org/…
I’m not really concerned with Zoe’s point, I’m only pointing you towards the professional information and literature I have.
Baiting by a Neophyte Clown
thankstbh, the asymmetry of trans-male vs trans-female representation in these threads has been troubling me. I think it says a lot.
breaking silence on you dyss
… only because I am done with thread anyways
Lets start with the “borrowed Privlege”
Which privledge would that be? That I am white? and this gives me privledge where and how? Who am I “Borrowing” this privledge from? You? The LGBT, The general Public, Congress, Samoan Indians? Space Aliens..what? Seems like your the one engaging in racism toward me. I have never once mentioned your ethnic backround.
“ethnocentricism leading to racism” …
That I am again White European and that my ancestors (for whom apparently I am charged with their behaviour) apparently raped tortured and enslaved the entire world for their own benefit and amuzement. Well If I am responsible for their wrong doings then you must be reponsible for the wrong doings of all african americans, and native americans that ever raped, murdered, enslaved, tortured and mutilated anyone of a white or different ethnic tribe to them such as we see in ethnic clensings in african states all the time.
“Classism” … which class would that be? That I am post operative and you are not? That makes me BETTER than you and everyone else? Where did I say this? Go ahead and pull the quote where I specifically told someone I was BETTER than them because I was post rectified and they were not? Or are you once again pulling the race card on me with. this shit?
“your bourgeois mentality” … Is this a new one for you? Seems I havn’t heard this one before. You must mean because I actually work and get paid for my labors as opposed to you who hasnt held a job since you started transition, live on public assistance paid for out of everyones tax dollars, beg for donations, and hold fanciful and far fetched delusions of running for, and attaining office. So I suppose thats my fault too, or is that the fault of ALL white americans too, because we all know that there are NO black americans that run businesses or that could but wont give you a job?
“your sexist and essentialist throwback views to the same ones that informed Raymond” … Until you threw Raymond in my face some time ago, I never even knew who she was. Now where am I being sexist exactly? … oh wait .. You mean because I dont hold that a “neo clit” (penis) is really a vagina? .. or is it the pregnant man thing? Yep, men want to have babies .. (delusion knows no bounds with you and the transgender), or that a fully endowed man is woman if they say they are?… more delusional thinking. Oh wait .. that would be “essentialist” .. that essentially speaking gravity doesn’t exist if you are deluded into thinkig so.. try throwing yourself off a bridge and see if you float.. thats REALITY .. something you would also like to avoid if at all possible.
“your lack of consideration or empathy for others” … if your talking about with the transgender, You get what you give. I get none from them, I dont feel any requirement for me to give any. If your talking about in my private dealings as a citizen, you have absolutly no idea whether or not I donate to charities, bring comfort and hope to those in need, empathise with those that have suffered untold tragedies and loss .. in short DYSS, you know shit about me other than what you twist and make up and level accusatory about me BASED on my dealings on this ONE aspect of my life.
“your absolute ignorance of social oppression and your denial of such even existing”… again, you are painting with a yard broom for you know NOTHING about my personal and private life and dealings therefore this statement is ENTIRELY based on my attitude toward the Transgender and their GLB allies.
Again I state clearly, there IS social oppression toward people that step outside of social norms. I have felt it many times in my life, from my own family, from suedo friends, from business associates, from employers, from the clergy, from members of the public, and especially from the gay community! Guess what … Dont like that? Dont transition ! FACE REALITY .. reality dictates that when you fly in the face of what is accepted, when you swim upstream, when you step outside the bounds of social conformity, YOU ARE MOST LIKELY TO BE SLAPPED FOR IT!
Thats the reality! Sorry if it doesn’t fit your rainbow colored and unrealistic life view of delusion. I didn’t make it, I dont necessarily approve of it, I am not immune from it, and I dont like it any more than anyone else does, but I can guarentee you this, all the while there is more than 5 humans on this planet, one of them isn’t going to like something about you! Deal with it!
I deal with mine … and I get along .. your result may vary!
Seconded.It’s kind of crass to complain that the person you’re talking to assumed unwarranted familiarity, when you had literally just done the same.
… and isn’t it about time a moderator here
…..slapped dyssonance a warning for racism! This post stinks to high heaven of racism!
Wow!
LOL, white privilege has nothing to do with whether you’re of Irish, Italian, Sicilian, or Russian ancestry. At least not in the good ol’ USA in 2010.
It has everything to do with your ancestors (or yourself) becoming “white” at some point and allowing all of that white privilege to flow in.
And that statement of yours above that I blockquoted is just reeking white privilege.
OH FUCK OFFhows that for privledge!
When losing your argumentcurse out your opposition.
The very factYou refuse to acknowledge that you, as a white person, benefit for a society that was but on the foundation that people from your ethnic background are the base line – that laws, social custom, and public opinion favor people that look like you over people who look like anything else. THIS makes you racist – full stop.
You deny that you posses benefits from being a heterosexual woman in a society that positions heterosexuality as the default , the expected norm, the only relationship configuration worthy of support or acknowledgment? Listen up lady, I’m a straight woman – I have a fiance. Pre-transition, I was viewed by society as a gay man. I experienced first-hand how one relationship was met with systemic erasure, dismissal, and the ever-present threat of violence. I also know that unless someone knows my status as a trans woman, my relationship exists where none of the previous factors have any impact.
And for the record: “Classism” is a social and economic positioning that places preference and allows unearned access to privileges to member of specific social and economic groups (or “classes”). Nothing to do with your operative status – not everything in this world does after all.
200 years of social justice work… hardly new stuff Dyss is throwing your way. Also, people of color are not in a position to be “racist” against white people – basic stuff really.
Thanks…
Know what
I tire of the lot of you… and this rag
If you want to paint me as a racist, homophobic, transphobic, bigot then who am I too argue.
Go ahead .. let me give you something to get your panties in a twist over..
Go suck MR dyssonances, mixed race cock while wearing panties and getting all gogo eyes over each other and pretending your all women doing cunnilingus, you piece of shit faggots trannys that you are ..
Did I cover all the bases?
Let the banning commence. Happy now ?
I didn’t have to paint you as anythingYou did that all by yourself, leigh.
Inflammatory and defamatory languageInflammatory and defamatory language is not conducive to constructive conversation and is not permitted as per the Terms of Service each PHB account holder agreed to during account creation.
wow…when next you all sob about the mean old “TEE GEEs” calling you elitist, and homophobic, and bigots you really kinda just made that point for everyone to see.
I don’t think you’ll read thisBut if by chance you do, I want to say that I understand why you felt you had to do that.
I do.
I’m saddened that you did it, as it broke even rules you’ve set for yourself, but what you never realized was that I have been listening to you all these years.
Carefully. Closely.
In good faith, even, although I rarely showed it.
Happy? Hardly.
I’d have rather you realized why I have long said things like racist, classist, sexist, etc.
Well I wasn’t expecting that.Thank you for proving my point though.
And what about someone like my spouse?She’s known she was female since she was a child. But we’re poor–both with PTSD, her from military service, and I’m physically disabled as well. There is no way we will be able to afford even top surgery for her, let alone bottom surgery. Horomones? If the VA covers it, which they might; she’s in the hospital now, they know she’s trans, and they are treating her respectfully.
And at her 6’5″, passing is a distant dream, even though her features are fairly feminine, and her figure tends towards hourglass.
How does your model work for my spouse? How does it work for anyone who isn’t middle-class or more, or in a country that is forward thinking enough to have single-payer healthcare that also covers transition?
You have the priviledgeof having the money to be able to transition. That’s heaps of priviledge.
We’ll go…when you start telling the truth. And I don’t think you can ban me here, Monica.
I’ve been using the VA…in Atlanta for my medical needs for over two years now. Both my primary care and my GYN are very sympathetic towards me. My primary informed me in the beginning that she treats both pre and post-op women. If you don’t ask, you don’t get…
Bet you felt good doing that…not that she didn’t deserve that. She’s a stupid fucking drunk puppet.
Btw, did you get the same rush as when you did it the other week?
No…because Leigh was a stupid drunk puppet that should have known better. Leigh and Susan are both willing puppets and don’t speak for me or my friends.
Yet the point remainsIf even a significant proportion of Intersex people are ok with their birth assignment, let alone most, when their birth assignment is pretty much the toss of a coin then that tells us there’s something significant going on!
And indeed Intersex people are not transsexuals. Though Transsexuals may possibly be Intersex. And even Crossdressers and Drag Queens can be Intersex as I have two friends who are anatomically Intersex one is a crossdresser and the other a drag queen both by self-deffinition despite one having two X chromasomes and the other ovaries.
Here in NSW we have the abominable situation where Intersex people only get anti-discrimination protection if they are discriminated against because the discriminator mistakenly considers them to be transitioned transsexuals.
And yet often that very thing must be put on documents in order for them to get some aspects of vital medical care! And as state healthcare often has things set aside as ‘womens halth’ only things some Intersex people get caught between the devil and the deep blue because of the false assumption of binary sex characteristics.
And indeed some medical folk are trying to claim that any rejection of birth-assignment by Intersex people is pathological!
Things OII is out to fix by insuring the largest LGBT health group now recognises Intersex and has added I to their name and Intersex health issues to their goals.
If there are no transgender (transexual) rights, how does one make it across the gender binary gapSo I’m really confused why the argument about not needing transgender rights. Yes I am transexual. Yes I just want to live my life a productive women in society. No I do not want to be something other than just female, but until someone figures out a way to just wiggle their nose or tug on their ear and instantaneously transform from male to female overnight, girls like me are left with the prospect of unemployment, homelessness, reduced rights within our society.
It does not matter whether you wish you hide your past and never have anyone know you were born in the body of the wrong gender. Unless you are independently wealthy and do not need to work to pay for transition or are simply magic and can transform overnight, you need some protection and equal rights.
To spew hate and foul speech at those less fortunate, generally shows a lack of understanding or education or both.
Is my goal in life to live forever as a transexual never being accepted as binary equal female? Absolutely not’ But I have my latest job that I have maintained for 14 years. I have been struggling for 31 years to come to grips with what I am, Struggling for 10 years figuring out the financing to move ahead with transition and now finally moving forward and I’ll be damned if I want to let any of this time and effort go to chance. I want equality and protection while I transition. Without it; Since I am not independently wealthy or magic, I stand a much higher chance of it all crashing down around me before I become the woman of the binary gender society.
And with the records and technology that exist today. The fact remains that whether you like it or not if you are transexual and not a genetic female, it matters not how well you cloak yourself in stealth. Once history catches up, if is should happen, you will have wished you supported activism equality and protection for not what you have become, but what your were born as.
As for me. I will accept all the help I can get from the LGBT community, ACLU and all the sub members of the T community, even if unlike me it’s just a part time thing.
I’m too damn old and to god damn tired to just hope it all works out.
Yep, and it cuts both waysthe problem stems from people wanting that just one way, if we all however recognise that it cuts both ways then there wouldn’t be this conflict at all.
Moderation warning, lisalee18wheeler
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My response to internecine phobia and vitriol
Anger and Vitriol
Anger—that is justified anger need not be expressed disrespectfully and laced with vitriol as I see it expressed in this article. If in fact, the object of one’s anger has so egregiously crossed the line as accused, then such egregious behavior will be self-evident. By engaging in name-calling and disrespecting a person’s legal gender by focusing on anatomy as is the case here, is not by any means the way to either maintain the high ground or remain legitimate in terms of credibility. One’s anatomy as implied by the unwise choice of “Mr” and “he”, is as personal and confidential as a medical record—it is beyond shameful to even go there.
At this very moment, I am seething in almost unbridled anger after reading this article for the reasons mentioned above; however as you can see I am able to articulate my points without having to resort to disparaging and libelous remarks. If in fact the object of anger is legally not the gender expressed here, it would be wise to correct this—proof of libel couldn’t be easier. This is not say that the other party is or isn’t equally culpable—I came into this fray in the 9th inning.
Dignifying with Response
I must also say that “claiming the right” to represent any group without being in an appointed role as such need not have been dignified as apparently it has been based on the participants and the volume of comments. Such dignification serves only to bolster any notoriety already present.
Clearly, Mrs. Sandeen already possessed sufficient notoriety and credibility to warrant such a barrage of comments—someone lacking significance would have simply been ignored. It therefore follows that any attempt to discredit Mrs. Sandeen’s credibility or significance will only backfire for the reasons already mentioned.
Internecine Torts
Having said the above, clearly these “ground rules” were not honored by either party. By not engaging in such infantile behavior, I retain the right to reprimand any and everyone on any side of the issue as I am so doing here. This is a peripheral argument—the object of my acute discontent is the author of this article AND all persons on both sides of this issue who are engaged in internecine behavior—intelligent, civilized discourse has yielded to elementary and uncivilized comments.
I am flushed with embarrassment with what this unfolding and evolving saga is demonstrating to “outsiders”. Whether trans/gender or trans/sexual, and despite outward appearance as measured on a “passing” scale, the fact that both parties are equally represented here self-demonstrates how much we actually have in common and not different. Don’t believe me—ask “straight” folk.
Anatomy Notwithstanding
I am undergoing gender reassignment transition (GRT) and will consider undergoing SRS only when it becomes financially viable. Legally my gender is female, my CA ID says so because an M.D. said so—any challenges to my gender are now immediately labeled “opinion only” and sent to the shredder bin never to be given credence again. We are all entitled to our opinion and likewise entitled to refutation—especially as supported by legal documentation. As I have stated earlier, anatomy or alteration thereof is not subject to discussion as it remains locked in a safe marked “medical record”—self-revelation notwithstanding.
Until the U.S. creates a 3rd (different) legal gender as some countries have, we can identify only as either M or F. A transgender process is exactly what it says it is: a transition toward the “opposite” birth gender. A non-medical 24/7 “opposite birth-gender” expression, by definition requires no transition phase—without legal or medical sanctification a successful argument that it is not “cross dressing” would be nearly impossible to achieve.
I stand in agreement that there is a clear and distinct difference between “trans-entertainment” and legitimate GRT. We all know what is meant by “entertainment” and it has its separate role in society. As a GRT female, I am 99% acknowledged as female, even without makeup. I loathed my “maleness” and always will—except for my partner. If some wish to remain “locked into” a permanent state of transition that is their prerogative—by definition therefore they are not “transgender” since their is no state of transition—their transition is complete. Medically speaking, we are all a composite of male/female hormones anyway.
Ownership of “women“
In closing, as I review this article and its closing statement that gives ownership of the word “women” only to natal-born women or men (no malicious intent here) who have undergone an authorized castration (again no malicious intent), it is beyond possibility for me not to draw a comparison with someone who has made the “big time” as a celebrity and subsequently disowned his/her past. At the risk of sounding argumentative which is not my intent, I can think of nothing else that comes close to demonstrating by example the meaning of “self-actualized arrogance.”
Domestic “violence”
As a transgender female with peace officer service at 3 levels (military, state, and county) I have been and will forever be a peacekeeper both by schooling and natal propensity. I am here at the “scene” of this “domestic” incident and “demand” that all parties cease, desist, recover. I insist that we get back to the “counseling” table, facing the stark realization that we all have a common foe. I am aghast at the level of intelligence demonstrated, this article excepted with all due respect, and equally aghast that this brilliant energy is being wasted as a result of this internecine “domestic” incident.
You have the right to remain…
Indeed all these labels serve only to confuse and intoxicate rather than shed clarity and sanity—we can continue this domestic “incident” that will inevitably lead to everyone’s demise or stop the self-delusion of the reality that we “were all once men“. This is one umbrella that like our race, casts an immutable shadow from which none of us can ever escape, at least covertly. We are all in possession of agape love—now let’s express it. This is NOT a request. It is a COMMAND.
‘nuf said. You are now released from detainment. Now lean forward while I remove the ‘cuffs.
But laws do not reality makeHi haviornally.
I’m going to disagree with a few things you have said but i want to thankyou for your remarks on the importance of ending Internecine conflict and wasted effort.
And yet there are plenty of people alive right now with bi-Gender neurology.
Sex-Not-Specified identity documentation may only have existed in my state of New South Wales here in Australia for about a week or so and officially only applied to one person and then withdrawn and official federal recognition for people who want/need such is currently in discussion before SCAG but the people for whom it would/will/has applied have been that way in reality regardless of the legal recognition of that fact or not.
And lets remember the Net is International. If norrie and the others fighting for an optional sex-not-specified identity documentation win it won’t matter if your in the USA and your laws wouldn’t recognise norrie’s identification if norrie was physically there in determining whether it would be right or wrong on the Internet to recognise norrie’s identity.
Except when it’s not. The case of norrie mAy welbe for example. The person who famously had their sex-not-specified status that recognised their bi-gender identity and physicality given then revoked and who is now fighting in the courts for it back. And lets remember the prefix Trans means also beyond as well as across.
There are people with Bi-Gender Identities who like norrie have gone through some degree of medical alteration and so are usually considered Transsexual. There are others including people i have met face to face who have bi-gender identities who are Anatomically Intersex. There are others who have Bi-Gender Identities but have not altered their bodies so are not Transsexual nor are they Anatomically Intersex and considering the reality of the first two why should we and how can we dissmiss their human right of self identification as ‘entertainment’? (note that I and my opposite birth assigned partner and many of our friends are Bi-Gender Identified! Our identities are not ‘entertainment’ and I’m offended by the suggestion. I’m sure my partner will be too, but while i type this they are returning from a meeting of a political activist collective of people who are Intersex Transgender Bi-Gender Genderqueer Transsexual etc)
When a law goes against reality and a Human Right then the law is unjust. Bi-Gender is a reality and everyone’s self-determined identity is their human right.
Thanks for your comment haviornally. While as i mentioned one of your comments has offended me i’m assuming it was purely unintentional and without any maliciousness and i’m happy to help explain my experiences to you and pass on those of others i know to help you understand.
Hi “battybattybats”….love this moniker!…Actually, yes, yes and yes!!Hi world citizen! It is a thrill to correspond with others beyond our national borders who, by virtue of gender-related struggles are forever-bound as family. Because the ‘net is indeed global, the extent of the reach of this new medium will take some getting used to.
Gender Entertainment “defined:
I would likewise have been offended if someone had categorized my gender-related struggle as mere “entertainment”. Ultimately, all definitions can not escape from some element of subjective interpretation and are usually a compromise whereby a common understanding is reached. This is why I will state what I mean by “entertainment” and I find comfort that we can commonly agree with its definition relative to gender issues.
By gender “entertainment” I mean–> the temporary crossing of gender stereotypes to express oneself in the gender (assuming the gender binary) “opposite” to one’s natal gender solely to entertain an audience, or as a sexual fetish or for any reason not related to any misalignment, conflict, or mismatch of one’s natal, internal gender identification that may or may not have a physical component—stated otherwise: “pretending” to be another gender.
The critical need to be taken dead serious….
Unless “outsiders” who typically view our “community” through the lens of acute prejudice or as “deviants” for having dared to “violate” the gender binary are convinced that there truly exists a psychosomatic GPI (gender-physical Incongruence) condition that requires medical or legal intervention to positively impact and sustain our quality of life 24/7 then we will never “win” in the court of public opinion or any other court for that matter. There simply are not enough of us to have more than a minor impact. As past history related to any battle whether military or civil shows, ones allies or lack thereof play decisive roles.
The “3rd”/other gender
About the “3rd” gender, I think it was India that recently adopted the use of a 3rd/other gender for the purpose of identifying transgender or other persons who do not fit in the gender binary. If one understands transgender to mean a change of gender then the creation of a 3rd gender to “arrests” this transitional process by identifying them as neither M or F gives “transgender” an entirely different meaning. Since gender expression in whatever form is typically not an illegal act, no one has standing to prohibit it or to impact someone’s life negatively regardless of personal opinion. This means that for those who do not seek to transition to/from M or F, a 3rd gender would give them legal legitimacy.
“my sex is not your business”…
I had never heard of a “sex-not-specified” legal status and find it very interesting. As is usually but not always the case, the more anything falls into category of “niche” the more difficult the upstream battles are relative to whatever the niche might be. Biological, medical ambiguities are a matter of record and we who are transgender represent that there also exists gender-physical incongruence which includes bi-gender identification as you have mentioned. It is also a biological fact that hormonally the difference between males and females is a quantifiable difference of the same hormones. I describe this by saying “none of us are male or female…we are either mostly male or mostly female.” True—an oversimplification of a complexity.
In closing, I hope I have been successful in contrasting legitimate gender “entertainment” from legitimate psychosomatic (mind/body) gender/sexual identity and the reason why it is critical that the distinction be made. You provide extremely valuable insight into the complexities of gender and remind us that not all transgender persons seek a permanent gender (expression) change. You also remind us that not everyone is born with an “opposite” “physical” “gender” due to sexual anomalies.
Yes, the prefix trans does indeed mean “beyond” as in “a trans Atlantic” voyage. I hope I have understood that persons who are bi-gender express both genders simultaneously and therefore are not in a gender “state of transition”. I wonder if “dual or multi gender” would therefore be more accurate terminology.
Lovingly,
Delphi Lomeli
I wonder how many do though?I know a few people personally who do or have done Drag, both Drag Kings and Drag Queens. They are all genuinely Transgender or Intersex.
Considering the societal pressure against leaving gender stereotypes wouldn’t it often take people with genuine gender diversity to be so easily able to go against societies rules?
As for sexual fetish i’ve only run into a minute handful of people who stated they believed their crossdressing originated in sexual fetish.. and some of them later admitted that was just something they were telling themselves and others as a way to cope with being Trans, when they grew in self-acceptance and were able to admit to themselves what it really was it wasn’t sexual in origin but a deep internal part of their identity they’d been suppressing.
You claim we need to convince the public about the medical side of things, i don’t buy that for a moment. Because there exists today cultures which had acceptance of all of ISGD without any sort of medical model for tens of thousands of years! Gays and Lesbians have increased (re)acceptance in the western developed world without convincing everyone that they suffer from a medical condition. Do we need the medical system to accept the medical needs of Intersex and Transsexual people? Yes. But thats not needed for public acceptance. People accept as normal what they are used to. If like Gays there were enough out Transgender people the acceptance problem would be solved.
As for numbers… seriously this myth needs busting. Sure only 1 in 500 people are estimated to be transsexual (Lynn Conway).
Much less than Gays and Lesbians who make up a huge 2.7% of the population… except that there are more Anatomically Intersex people than there are Gays and Lesbians! Peter Koopman of the University of Queensland is quoted as saying that 4% of live births are Intersex so that’s 4 Intersex people for every 3 Gays and Lesbians!
Now bisexuality is waaaaay more common than exclusive self identified gays or lesbians. We have figures that in primary school 6% of students already know they are same-sex attracted. This rises to 10% in Highschool (writing themselves in 3 LaTrobe University) and is found in adults at 20%.
But what are the numbers for the rest of Transgender?
The APA says 2%-3% of males are Crossdressers. So the minimum range is the same as Gays. Seriously that;s huge right there! But those are the small estimates, because i’ve heard talk of figures from the U.K. of 6%-8% and going from the Principal of the school in Thailand that put in Transgender toilets it’s 10%-20% which is a figure that makes sense from the anecdotal experiences of people i know.
Even if the higher estimates are not correct what we can clearly see is that with the minimum estimates alone we do have sufficient numbers to make serious societal economic and political impact.
As for ‘other’ gender.. well see the fact is that some people do have bi-gender or a-gender gender identities. And these people are discriminated against by policed gender expression and gender identity. Whats important is that those who need/want to be classed as such be allowed to but those Trans and Intersex people who do not should not be. There’s no way round this, shove all ISGD into a 3rd option and it’s injustice, let none have it and it’s injustice.
And its vital that we work together because if we don’t cooperate any one of us may harm the others if we fight for our rights and needs alone while if we work together we have the numbers to change the world.
Thanks for the confirmationI just could not put my finger on the conversation thread in the TGT archive. So I am still correcting myself – coinage is still yours (meaning my memory, as usual, is still somewhat fuzzy), but inspiration was from the T2M gentleman.
Showing my supportAnyone who wants to break away from the transbrella shouldn’t be called a bigot for it. After watching ENDA fizzle out when the main opposition were using basically one bullet point that “they don’t want men in dresses in their bathrooms” it became clear to me transsexuals must separate from the transbrella. Maybe in 20 or 30 years people might not fight using bathroom arguments but I don’t want to wait that long. Actually, I can’t wait that long.
What aboutThose who want and need to have surgery? I don’t think we should all stay in the transgender group because of that. How are people supposed to go through transition and live through it (in some cases) if there are not laws and policies in place to protect you while you go through it? I know there are some who absolutely can’t afford the cost of surgery. Insurance policies need to be reformed which would help.
Someone who was born biologically male who would be willing to undergo surgery to correct their genitalia if the opportunity was there is most certainly not a male. Men don’t do that. A woman who was born with a penis would do it.