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Over the holidays I had the opportunity to speak with an old friend who is on staff in a Presbyterian church (PCUSA) in northern New Jersey. She’s been a straight ally for over 30 years, so I was curious to know how her allyship might play out in her church and if it doesn’t, what are the roadblocks. She teaches in the church’s pre-school and directs the children’s choirs, so her job description doesn’t necessarily put her in a natural advocacy role that, say, a pastor’s or youth leader’s might.
I invite you to eavesdrop on our conversation with an eye towards respectful understanding that every congregations is different, and that there are complexities involved in being an LGBT advocate in a denomination that like President Obama “isn’t quite there yet”. My take away from our conversation is that for my friend’s congregation, internal politics and lack of leadership are barriers to developing a new mission of active LGBT inclusion and advocacy.
This is not to say that I am looking to make excuses for the silence of some of our allies, but that the potential for progress always looks clearest to those farthest away from the action. If you have straight allies who are people of faith but have faced roadblocks to living their allyship as people of faith, how have you helped them strategize ways around those roadblocks? Please share your experiences in the comments.
A note on where LGBT people stand in relation to PCUSA
From what I can tell, PCUSA doesn’t have any set policies regarding transgender people. PCUSA seems to view everything through the lens of sexual orientation. The document The Church and Homosexuality published in 1978 and augmented by a 2005 study guide is the denomination’s guide for how “homosexuals” should be viewed by and treated in the church. The Church and Homosexuality essentially says that gays are to be lovingly included into the life of the church and if celibate may be ordained as lay leaders or clergy, but that sexual relationships between two men or two women are sinful.
In 1997 PCUSA amended the denomination’s constitution The Book of Order (pdf) to ban the ordination of “unrepentant” lesbian, gay or bisexual lay leaders or clergy.
Those who are called to office in the church are to lead a life in obedience to Scripture and in conformity to the historic confessional standards of the church. Among these standards is the requirement to live either in fidelity within the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman, or chastity in singleness. Persons refusing to repent of any self-acknowledged practice which the confessions call sin shall not be ordained and / or installed as deacons, elders, or ministers of the Word and Sacrament. (G-6.0106b)
“The confessions” referred to above is the part of The Book of Confessions called the Heidelberg Catechism which lists “homosexual perversion” as a sin. The current version of the Heidelberg Catechism reads:
Q. 87. Can those who do not turn to God from their ungrateful, impenitent life be saved?
A. Certainly not! Scripture says, “Surely you know that the unjust will never come into possession of the kingdom of God. Make no mistake: no fornicator, or idolater, none who are guilty either of adultery or of homosexual perversion, no thieves or grabbers or drunkards or slanderers or swindlers, will possess the kingdom of God.”
The original Heidelberg Catechism was written in the 16th century and made “no mention of homosexual perversion or of same-sex relations in any terms”, according to scholars. ”Homosexual perversion” was added in 1962.
Efforts have been underway for about 10 years to remove the 1997 rules barring partnered LGB people from ordination. In July, 2010 at the 219th PCUSA General Assembly the church’s legislative body voted 373 to 323 to replace the 1997 anti-gay ordination language with text that ignores the sexual orientation and relationship status of the candidate. This vote must be ratified by 2/3 of the presbyteries (local governing bodies) and then again by the next General Assembly in 2012 to go into effect. A similar effort was defeated in 2008 when the presbyteries declined to ratify the change.
At about the same time “The Church and Homosexuality” was adopted, the kernel groups of what would later become More Light Presbyterians formed. More Light Presbyterians is a “network of people seeking the full participation of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people of faith in the life, ministry and witness of the Presbyterian Church (USA).” They maintain a listing of Welcoming Churches.
My conversation with a straight Presbyterian ally
You’ve been a member of this church for almost 18 years. What’s it like to work in your own congregation?
“Very dicey. It’s a tricky position to be in. I can’t always state my personal feelings, because I’m a staff member even though I’m a congregant.” In other words, she doesn’t know whether congregants will interpret what she says as reflecting the church administration or her personal opinion. ”It’s a tight rope, a fine line.”
She’s never experienced difficulties stemming from this dual role in the church because “I’m cautious. I do not like confrontation. So I’m not going to voice my opinion in any kind of situation where I’m going to have to become combative. So I make sure I’m not in those positions.”
“When the presidential election was going on, this past one, the one before — oh the one before was horrible — because we have a staff member who is very Republican, very conservative, and no one else on the staff is.”
The situation (which hilariously in retrospect included a bumper sticker war) escalated to the point where “we actually said in staff meeting, you know we really have to kind of leave our politics outside of this building because we have congregants that go both ways and you don’t want to set a precedent that you can’t work with somebody that has a differing opinion.”
“And that’s specific to the history in our church and some other things that have happened that divided us where they could not have differing opinions and work together. It’s taken almost 10 years to heal something else that happened. It was a horrendous time where some staff members could not even grocery shop in town. If they saw somebody who was on the opposing side, they would be screamed at.”
This decade-old divisive event was due to an event within the church rather than external politics, but “it set up this feeling in our church that you can’t have any kind of differing opinion, because obviously we can’t play together in the sand box if we don’t agree on everything.”
Of course nobody agrees on everything, and so the church has been on tenderhooks since. But hope is on the horizon. ”A minister left, we’ve gone through a couple years of interims, and now we just now this month got our permanent head of staff who has a degree in counseling. So there’s going to be a difference now I believe, and he’s going to force us over time to say ok, we can have differing views, and we can still work together for a common good”.
“I know other churches go through these kinds of things, and this is just where our church is right now.”
Has the congregation had to deal with any major problems during these past 10 difficult years, or has it been pretty quiet?
“Things have been pretty quiet because everbody’s scared. In the mainline churches you’re losing members, so its pretty quiet. The one issue particular to our town is undocumented workers. That is a huge problem here. Where do you stand as a church on that? Do you feed and clothe them even though they’re undocumented, even though the Mayor is kicking them off the street? Then do you go against the Mayor? People whose cause this is have moved to the side and quietly done all the work they want to do on it, and the rest of the congregation doesn’t pay attention because they don’t care.”
So the rest of the congregation isn’t obstructing that work?
“They’re not obstructing them, although I know some of the older people in the church hate that. They want all the undocumented workers kicked out. But they don’t say anything, they just say OK that’s your thing I’m turning my head because there’s the sense of we need members, can’t upset anybody.”
Over the past 10-15 years, membership in the church has gone way down. ”Whatever the national average is, we’re probably right there with them. It’s down substantially. …People are just too busy – they don’t come to church. I don’t know whether they don’t believe, it’s the only day of the week I can sleep in blah blah blah, all the excuses you’ve heard over the years.
National polling shows the United States to be very religious, but apparently that doesn’t translate into as great a need to attend weekly church services as in the past.
Does the denomination interfere in issues of the local congregation or are you free to work out your own problems?
“In the Presbyterian Church you’re in your own church, then you’re part of a presbytery, which is a regional grouping. And then the national office in Louisville, KY is in charge of everybody. So from what I can tell, it comes down to how active, how good the head Presbyter is in terms of what they let you do, not do, get away with.”
“Part of what’s going on in the Presbyterian Church is we have huge congregations in the South who, as you can guess, are a lot more conservative. That’s also true of some of the California churches – the big money California churches are more conservative than people would think. And these huge churches are deciding they’re going to leave the Presbyterian faith because they don’t like the direction the Presbytery is going in.”
And what direction is that? ”Being more inclusive, being gay friendly. But those aren’t the only issues. There are all kinds of management and administrative issues of which I’m not part of because as a staff member I can’t be in the ruling body of a congregation.”
Why are you a gay ally?
“Well I don’t know, I just always have been! Why wouldn’t I be? Obviously because of you is a good part of it, but part of it is, I was a music major. Basically, I was surrounded by gay guys. If I wasn’t friendly, I wouldn’t have had any friends. I can’t say that I was in high school and before because frankly it wasn’t on my radar and I didn’t even know what it was even. And if I did I probably snickered like it was something funny. And then I got into college and had this rude awakening like oh! Oh, OK! So I guess that’s it. I just never wouldn’t have been from the time I got into college.
There’s a difference between treating gay people fairly and being an advocate — and advocacy takes all kinds of forms. For example telling people you’re gay-friendly and why, I call that advocacy. Do you see advocacy happening in your congregation either formally or informally, for example like with the congregants helping the undocumented immigrants, that it’s a calling for them?
“I don’t really see it in our congregation, and I think it’s because we don’t have a leader. There’s not someone who says ‘My son’s gay and he needs equal rights so let’s go after them.‘ I don’t see any of the kids saying ‘I’m gay, I need support,’ because they would have it in the church – our church would support them. If somebody was there and asked, it would happen, I think.”
“When I’ve been around some of the older — like I’d say 80s and up — opinionated people who throughout our congregation’s history have always caused trouble, those people will make cracks about ‘well you can just go to the Episcopal church down the street and have a gay man, you know, feed you the lord’s supper‘ or something, and they’ll make those kinds of comments, and you just look at them and go, you are so old. Because I would say from age 80 down, most of the congregation does not feel that way. They would not make that kind of comment. Because almost all of them know somebody gay or have someone in their family who’s gay. And so maybe some of them are advocates and are out doing things, but we don’t talk about it.”
“We refer to ourselves as ‘the frozen chosen‘, which means that we’re pretty stiff, tight-lipped, don’t talk about stuff.”
When the New Jersey legislature was voting on marriage equality this year and the Catholic church was aggressively lobbying against it, was any of that conversation brought into your church?
“No. Our church, we were looking for our new minister and that’s all we focused on. Oh, there’s a tsunami in the rest of the world? Oh well. We were focused on oh my goodness, we’re losing members, oh my goodness we need a new person to come here, oh my goodness I hope they don’t screw up and get an awful person like they did last time. They had such blinders on, and then the only room they have is for their own particular cause.”
“We have people who their cause is helping the Katrina places, and twice a year they take a week or 2 weeks of their vacation and go down and build houses and paint houses and do Katrina stuff. We have people that go to the Dominican Republic every year. We have people that do a clothing bank out of the basement of the church every Tuesday for the undocumented workers.”
So your church is very mission driven.
“We are extremely mission driven. Remember where we dropped the oranges off that one year? We started that men’s mission. Our church does a lot of mission stuff, but they don’t talk about it, they don’t advertise it. And in fact when new people like new ministers come in they say ‘What’s wrong with you people? You should be out there telling what you’re doing.’ But of course we don’t because you’re not supposed to do that. You’re not supposed to wave your flag and say ‘look at all the good deeds I do‘.”
Reading some of the PCUSA literature you’d think this was the place to be for gay Christians because it talks about being joyously inclusive, etc. But reading deeper you see it states that gay relationships are a sin. So there’s a jarring disconnect there between treating people with humanity but then telling them their relationships are depraved. In your 18 years at your church, what kinds of things have been said about gay people from the pulpit?
“The minsters have preached on tolerance, that’s their big thing. When __ was here, whatever gay issue the General Assembly was debating that particular summer, he gave a very good sermon that mentioned a big church change like allowing women to serve communion. I don’t remember exactly but something big like that. He said that took 125 years to get change. He said it seems so simple to us, it seems like a no-brainer, but it took 125 years, or whatever the years were, but it was huge like that. He said we’re starting the conversation now about allowing gays to serve communion, or whatever it was that particular summer, but it was something about a gay issue. But he said, for the people who are disappointed in how it turned out I say to you, it took 125 years for women to serve communion. He said, we’ll get there in the end, but it’s a process, so don’t give up.”
“I remember that sermon because I though, oh my goodness, he’s pro-gay, he just said it from that pulpit in a round-about way, and he actually did a sermon I can tell you about this many years later, that’s how much it struck me. But never again. He never said anything about gays again. Then he left.”
“The next minister was definitely pro-gay and talked about his uncle being gay and how hard it was to watch people not accept him, but didn’t really say — all his sermons were about himself, so he didn’t tell us to do anything.”
“And then any of the interims we’ve had, who I can tell you whole-heartedly would be all pro-gay — because interims are far better than regular ministers as far as I can tell — and they’re more able to let people know how they feel because they’re going to be there 1 or 2 years. So they are much easier about telling people how they feel, but again never calling people to arms or go fight for gay marriage. I never heard that from the pulpit, I just heard ‘we’re all God’s children‘ kind of thing.”
“And then our most recent interim, after Tyler Clementi died by suicide …she did a sermon that was just, ‘what is wrong with us that we would be in this society that we would allow this, that a child would not feel safe to go talk to somebody‘. She said all the kids’ names — But again, her message was we need to love one another. Period.”
Not ‘we need to make sure that gay people in our congregation know we’re there to support them‘?
“Right. No, it was, we’re here, we need to love and accept each other, and that’s our mandate from God. Period. Be loving.”
So that was your most recent interim. You have a permanent pastor now?
“Yeah he just got here this month so I have no idea. So we’ll see with him. He seems to be tolerant on the ‘we need to love each other‘ kind of thing, but we’ll see how that translates, you know.”
It sounds like in your church none of the ministers would be opposed to someone in the congregation starting a gay advocacy project, but the clergy isn’t going to initiate that.
“Exactly. I would agree with that. And they are walking a fine line, because they’ve got that 80 year old congregant who is in the last parts of their life who, and I hate to be this way but, who’s basically funding the church. Because of course the people with money are the older people. People who are younger, with families, they’re not giving as much money to the church. And I don’t want to say you rule the church by money, but it is an important thing that somebody that’s giving a lot of money, is paying your salary. So you have to at least acknowledge that they feel a certain way.”
A religion-positive pollster recently showed that 2/3 of Americans “see connections between messages coming from America’s places of worship and higher rates of suicide among gay and lesbian youth.” At the same time, people tended to think their own church handled gay issues well.
“Wow.”
So the perception that churches are a detriment to gay people, that’s a widespread impression.
“Well and I think its those conservatives that do that. I mean I would say that I think those conservative churches are brutal.”
I see two levels of problem. There are those conservative churches that preach anti-gay stuff from the pulpit. But then there’s a category of churches which I would put yours in — tell me if I’m being unfair — and that is just standing quietly by and maybe making occasional token efforts.
It was good that gays were mentioned positively in those sermons at your church, but scared gay people can tell a meek token effort from something more substantial. When the only religious voices out in the wider world are the homophobic ones and they don’t get countered out there by the loving ones, I think that’s noticed. It’s not that the neutral churches like yours are doing anything wrong, but they’re not doing anything to counteract the nasty stuff that’s going on in the public square. It makes them look like accomplices even though they’re not.
“Yeah. I can see the undocumented workers probably feel the same way, the tea party that did something on the town green probably feels the same way. It’s a difficult place to be in a mainline church, and I think until someone comes to be the captain, or to say ‘this is important to me‘.
That would seem to make sense for a church like yours where people are already very busy doing good things. Your church does sound amazingly active in the issues it’s engaged in.
“Pretty much the people who are still members are the people that do stuff. And it might not be very much because they’re busy, but they try and do something. But they’re not the people who are going to start anything. The people who start ministries — like one women found a connection in Newark so that for the holidays if you get a free ham, you take it to her, and she started with filling the trunk of her car and now she rents a truck 3 or 4 times a year to take all this stuff to these families in Newark — we’re doing a whole block now, helping this block out — but that was her, she happened to meet someone and talked to her and started a new mission. And it’s those kinds of things where it’s one person.”
“But of course here’s the bottom line: she was retired. All these things that start like this are retired people. They’ve got the time, they’ve found meaning in something to do that inspires them.”
“The people in my generation who I would say, as it comes down in age where I would say I’m certainly gay friendly and an ally, but you go down to my son’s generation, they don’t even think about it. It’s not even in their vocabulary to be gay-friendly because they just are. They don’t think about it. So as it goes down in generations, the group coming up I think there’ll be changes.
Was there anything else that came to mind that you wanted to mention?
“It’s really interesting in talking, I’m thinking well how would our church even have a discussion? And I thought OK, we do an adult morning seminar at 9:15 and they have different speakers, all kind of speakers: we have interfaith marriage speakers coming in because we have a lot of Presbyterian-Jewish families in our congregation; the migrant worker speakers come in, the undocumented workers speakers come in. And I thought, you know, we could have somebody come in and talk about the gay issues and the problem that somebody sees around the church and I thought that would be one way. And I’m thinking, how could I get them in the church?
That could be a very calm, non-confrontational way to broach the subject.
“I work with the woman who runs the committee who gets all those people in. That would be an interesting way to see who showed up to listen to it.”
And also to test the waters to see whether that very gentle approach would ruffle any feathers, although I would presume that anyone whose feathers would ruffle just wouldn’t come to it.
“I would believe that. I do believe we have people in their 60s and 70s in our congregation who do have gay children. So it would be interesting to see who would come and who wouldn’t. Would the regulars all come or not? I’ll suggest that to the coordinator, and she’ll take it to the committee…because you know we’ve got to do everything through a committee. The committee is made up of people my age, so they’ll probably think it’s a good idea. I think they did their layout through May already, but certainly for the fall. They’re always looking for ideas.
How shall I refer to you in my post, how specific or not specific shall I be?
“You can say I’m from northern New Jersey. I thought about, can she use my name? You know I’ll go out there and trumpet gay rights and I have no problem saying to anyone that I’m pro-gay, and I would say that the the parents of the children that I work with, but there’s something about putting my name, and I work with children. Because people can be so fricken bizarre about children. And I have to tell you, in our church we had a convicted pedophile. And nobody was happy with it but they dealt with it, but that’s who they know as being gay. Not good! We need some other gay people in our church!
Yes you definitely need some regular out gay people in your church!
“And we probably do have some but I wouldn’t know them because I can’t hang out with the congregants of the church because I’m working. There could be a whole sub-culture, I don’t know.
You know, you just momentarily became an honorary gay person by having to think in those ‘will they assume I’m a pedophile‘ terms. I’ve always been extremely self-conscious around kids because I know the assumptions about gay people, and they’re not true – there’s a difference between pedophiles and gay people.
“Exactly! And I do make a big point about that when I talk to people. And I have a little more leeway because I’m a woman. If I was a man, wow, they have a horrible time of it. I can be pro-gay and say things and because I’m a woman I think people would not respond as negatively as if I were a man.”
19 Comments
So like the Methodist denominationan individual congregation can be welcoming and inclusive, but the dogma of the church at larger remains discriminatory.
Identifying and nurturing alliesGreat posting Lurleen, and thank you for the insightful, respectful questions posed to your friend. The Episcopal church of which I am a member has been very gay-positive for more than 20 years. (Back in the 80s, we had an AIDS/HIV support group and conducted low-key blessings of same-sex couples. We now march in the annual LGBT pride parade, have had openly lesbian and gay clergy on staff, and, since March 2010, have performed legal same-gender marriages.)
But our congregation is presently facing some of the same challenges: searching for a new rector, attracting membership in a transient city with many different communities of faith from which to choose, and maintaining a sustainable base of financial support for our ministries and programs. It is a fact of life that churches and denominations don’t change over night; and that most successful congregations are dependent on support and participation from many factions–wildly diverse groups in age, race, economic and educational status, and religious upbringing.
I really appreciate your suggestions on how to best nurture and improve the position of straight allies. I have found it’s almost always more productive over the long haul to identify areas of common ground and accept baby steps at first; to take the necessary time and patience in educating clergy and preparing key congregational leaders to support LGBT-friendly initiatives and policies; and if at all possible to avoid drama, name-calling, and intrigue for the sake of emotional catharsis alone.
I’m proud to say that my parents, who worship at an Episcopal parish in eastern North Carolina, are two people who have been the ones to tell clergy and vestry members that ‘My son’s gay and he needs equal rights’; the ones to staff the LGBT ministry table at diocesan conventions; and offering confidential support to other parents and LGBT individuals in need of a comforting ear. Another example of PFLAG types being our most influential and effective advocates.
I hope your friend is able to identify like-minded individuals in her congregation and presbytery who will be courageous and sufficiently dedicated to finding ways to carefully and permanently pushing the envelope on issues of concern to the LGBT individuals and families in their midst.
Thanks LurleenI’ve posted a few times recently on reflexive use of LGBT and how T people deserve honest information about where they stand.
You’ve clearly heard that call and right out front tell us that PCUSA doesn’t address T folk and their lives at all.
I really appreciate your careful thought on the reflexive use of LGBT and clear writing in this article : )
………Now I have to read the interview & see what I think about that!
Sometimes it matters where you are as wellSometimes a welcoming congregation will be there just because the climate in the area you find yourself has made the move to be welcoming. At least that’s what I perceive as happening with both Methodist, Baptist (such as First Baptist) and Presbyterian churches here in Seattle.
I have calls in to several people who I hope can help me understand the specific experience of transgender people in various denominations or religions. So far I haven’t come across a comprehensive source for such information, so if anyone knows of a “one stop shopping” source, please point me to it!
My first impressions are that most churches are familiar with the LGB question but less so or not at all with the T question, and that a lot depends on who happens to be out in a particular congregation. But I’m facing a steep learning curve with all this and my first impressions could be wrong, so feel free to educate me.
That seems to be the case, and is whyit is so important to help pro-equality people of faith figure out a path forward. Nothing more will happen if the change agents within the congregations aren’t engaged and supported. But if they are, there’s no reason why matters can’t improve in democratically run denominations like PCUSA, and this will have a positive ripple effect for society as a whole.
On a side note, during my research for this diary I came across this PCUSA article called Bullying: ‘a national disaster’. It’s largely in response to all the deaths of gay or perceived-to-be gay kids by suicide reported in 2010. What struck me was that nobody quoted in the article mentioned the elephant in the room: the denomination itself is helping undermine the self-worth of its gay congregants by branding their relationships sinful. It left me wondering what it must be like to be clergy in PCUSA giving a gay-positive “we’re all God’s children” sermon like my friend recounted, but knowing full well that you’re at best putting a band aid on a severed limb, that the denomination’s policies are actually part of the problem.
I grew up Presbyterian…and this person’s description of her congregation sounds all too familiar!
Small-town Presbyterians can be wonderful, inclusive, generous people, both individually and in congregations. They can go all-out for any number of good works. But boat-rocking and public advocacy/agitation just doesn’t come naturally to them!
Growing up in the ’70s, our local Presbyterian congregation was just like she describes. There were some very cool young people (this was right after the “Hippie Jesus” movement – alongside the regular hymnal, we had the “hip” hymnal with the Pete Seeger songs and the score from “Godspell”), a big group of middle-aged people who did all the work and set most of the agenda… and then a small, very vocal group of grumpy old people who had all the money and, as Lynn Ahrens would put it, were “thoroughly irritated with everything.”
In this atmosphere, most of the issues were local – finding a new pastor, getting a new organ, doing renovations on the building. Lots of good works were (quietly) getting done all the time, but no one had the energy or the inclination for an actual political fight. Anyone trying to urge them to such activity would have gotten highly frustrated.
Fortunately, my parents are now Quakers, where no one has any hesitation in speaking up about political causes.
where to start?As a regular out lesbian congregant in a PCUSA church that sounds similar to this one, I have mixed reactions to this (and a lot to say). I grew up PCUSA and then left the church for about 20 years and have been going to this church for 10+ years now. It’s been almost 2 years since I first approached pastoral staff about starting an LGBT fellowship and Bible study group. It was initially shot down because it was too controversial (don’t buy the PCUSA rhetoric that for LGBT people it’s “everything but ordination” — that’s bull).
We have a new senior pastor who allowed us to bring it to session (church governing body) but only after preaching from the pulpit that he believes homosexuality is a sin (he has yet to state from the pulpit that he believes divorce is a sin). Despite that, the session is still studying the issue and has yet to vote on what should be a no-brainer (if you buy the PCUSA rhetoric, but please don’t). We are allowed to have our group but it’s not “sanctioned” yet and we can’t advertise it, which effectively means the three organizers sit around at meetings talking amongst ourselves. What they’re debating is whether to “sanction” us.
There are straight allies in our church and a few really awesome people. But they aren’t staff. And staff in these kinds of churches will never be allies except in name only. We have one straight ally who is our co-leader and has been a great champion for the group and LGBT people in the congregation. There are others who are supportive but moving them from supportive to advocacy is very difficult. There are very few people who don’t have a dog in this fight (our co-leader’s daughter is a lesbian) that will take up the advocacy banner in these kinds of churches.
One of the biggest problems that people working for change have is getting people in such a church to understand that they’re not welcoming. Under no circumstances would I consider her church or mine welcoming. The woman in the post talks about how LGBT people should have a place to turn in the church. I was a late bloomer and when I came out, I felt there was no place to turn in my church. My church would say that it’s tolerant and welcoming and would love me but my experiences there (way beyond the situation above) tell a different story. You can label yourself whatever you want but it doesn’t make it true.
My partner and I recently went to a Lutherans Concerned training program on building an inclusive church. I was struck by the number of straight allies there. If you know of straight allies in mainline church communities that are looking for where to start, I can’t recommend this training enough.
I’m trying not to sound bitter, just realistic (probably not doing too well at it). We really tried to be the out gay couple working for change. I think for me and my partner there’s just too much water under the bridge where we are. At some point you realize you’re just never going to be really welcome, no matter what. We actually visited a UCC church this morning that advertises itself as open & affirming on its website. The reader was an out lesbian and it was refreshing to be in a church that really walks the walk rather than welcoming us through gritted teeth.
Sandy
I won’t strategize with faith groups,I work with legal groups. I am not putting my money and time into changing hearts and minds, I am putting my money and time into suing them. Forget it.
It’s not everyone’s cup of teaI’m not personally affiliated with any church or faith group myself. In fact I’m an atheist. But I am happy for those who are willing to work for positive change within their faith communities.
Pussyfooting in the Face of PrejudiceI wish I had a dollar for every time over the last several decades I’ve heard or read of someone from the South saying, “Well, I was opposed to Jim Crow laws and persecution, but I didn’t dare say anything in my town/store/office/congregation for fear of ostracism or worse. So what I did (or didn’t do) wasn’t wrong because I didn’t believe in what was happening around me.”
Yes, it’s difficult to speak out in many contexts. But every person has to decide for himself or herself whether the consequences are worse than the hypocrisy. Because, no matter how one may feel personally, silence in the face of wrongdoing is complicity in wrongdoing.
It’s never enough to be morally ahead of everyone around you. Sometimes, to some degree, you have to step back and nudge them on.
A post that prompts my frustrations to come outMy experience is with the United Methodist Church, but is similar. The church Book of Discipline (the rule book) says, “Homosexuality is incompaitble with Christian Teaching.” It then goes on to say that all people should be treated with dignity and acceptance (the contradiction is noted by outsiders). There have been strong battles at the General Conference, held every 4 years (next in 2012), which is the only body with authority to change the Book of Discipline.
I’m gay, but haven’t made it known to anyone in the congregation other than the pastor. The one that came 18 months ago is the third I’ve told. It was a non-event because her brother-in-law was gay (died of heart problems). The other two were accepting.
Three years ago I became the Stewardship Guide for the church, giving monthly messages about taking care of the faith, talents, and environment we’ve been given. As part of that I began to try to get my congregation to adopt a welcoming vision statement. I was sponsored in that effort by Reconciling Ministries Network, the group agitating for gay acceptance in the denomination.
I had heard stories of such an effort being met with vocal opposition, though many cases the pro-gay side was strong enough that the silent middle learned about the plight of gays and voted for the welcoming statement and the anti-gays would leave.
It didn’t work out that way here. There was no vocal opposition. But there wasn’t any vocal support either. There were many meetings where I was the only one who attended. There are only two allies (one is a man who had been divorced and knew what it was to feel excluded) and they couldn’t get their friends to show up either. The effort is on hold.
A few have said that when the vision statement comes up for a vote, they’ll approve it. I haven’t asked for a vote yet because I have no idea how much support I have and for most in the congregation an approved welcoming statement will make no difference on how they treat those who they believe shouldn’t be there.
The pastor has said nothing about homosexuality from the pulpit. She has been told that if she does certain people will carry out their threat to leave. If she is holding discussions behind the scenes she hasn’t told me.
My congregation has about 110 on a Sunday morning. There are very few young families, most are retirees. I’ve heard stories (but no names) of members telling others exactly how things are to be done, prompting the receiver to quietly stop coming.
Yes, frustrating.
Your parents sound wonderfuland some folks just like them would be just the ticket for my friend’s congregation, it would seem.
Thank youfor this forthright response. I’m beginning to understand from all these excellent comments that the first step in a congregation is for people like you and your partner to step forward, but that success is certainly not guaranteed. I can only imagine the frustration.
It would be interesting to find out how that Lutheran group was able to draw so many straight allies. Although it is often gay parishoners like yourselves who may need to get the ball rolling, in my opinion it is the straight allies who need to carry most of the load. After all, we carry a huge burden just by trying to participate at all in these semi-hostile denominations.
Frustrating indeed.Thank you for describing your situation and experiences. Hopefully some straight ally somewhere will be moved by your honest efforts and frustrations to step forward in their own congregation.
My experiences…I never grew up in a church, so my experiences are based on the one time I went to a PCUSA church for a class project (we chose to go to a church, weren’t forced to, of course).
Now I live in a liberal bubble, so I know my experiences aren’t universal, but I enjoyed going to this church. If I were Christian, this would be the church I would go to, pretty much no doubts about that.
For the class project we were going around to public places to see how people reacted to LGBT sexualities and alternative relationship structures. One of the other women in my group and I went to this church to ask questions of the pastor. After the service on the way out, we pulled her (the pastor) aside and asked her her views on same-sex marriage and the role of LGBT people in her particular church. To this day I can remember the answers rather clearly, so amazed was I.
To the first question: She would marry any two people who loved each other and were deeply committed to each other. I looked at the church website later and it stated that the punishment for performing a same-sex wedding was suspension or removal of the pastor from the faith. I was amazed that she would risk her job for this belief.
To the second question: She talked about how they were an open and affirming congregation and how they had a transgender woman on their governing board–an elected position.
Apathy kill churchesI think the reason mainline churches are losing members is because they refuse to stand for anything. People are drawn to faith communities that give them a sense of purpose. Evangelical churches are gaining in membership because they offer excitement, usually in the form of saving souls, or possibly fighting the culture war against evil homosexuals and abortionists. The PCUSA church this woman attends sounds awfully boring in comparison.
The solution for mainline churches is have a different mission. I belong to a United Methodist congregation that has a mission to fight for social and economic justice. Members can participate in all kinds of programs that really make a difference in the community (and we’re not afraid to talk about it…how can you invite others to participate if you don’t advertise what you’re doing?) We actively support LGBT rights and are the only official Reconciling congregation in town. Several other Methodist churches have gay members and bill themselves as “welcoming”, but they haven’t take an official vote.
My church is growing. We have people of all ages, about two-thirds of whom are straight allies, while the rest are LGBT (yes, some them trans). While I do think we’re special, we’re not unique–other congregations can grow and thrive, too. I think it’s important to commit to fighting for equality, especially in denominations where the official policy is not totally open to gays. And with the policy being what it is, it’s really important for straight allies to lead the way.
if you wanna talk to my rabbiI could put you in touch. She’s fairly connected, not the most connected, but fairly connected…and actually has significant connections in israel, too, if you’re interested.
sure!send me an email at blenderlurleen AT gmail dot com