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Sue Fulton and JD Smith are back to liveblog the Senate debate involving DADT repeal.
The URL for the CoverItLive console is http://tinyurl.com/phbdadt.
Sue Fulton is the Chair of Knights Out – 1980 graduate of West Point, former Army Captain and company commander.
JD Smith is the active duty co-director of OutServe. A graduate of a U.S. service academy. “JD Smith” is a pseudonym since he is currently an active-duty officer.
Note: Comments will be disabled in CoverItLive, but readers are welcome to use this blog entry to post your thoughts/reactions. If you want to see what people are tweeting about DADT, we’ve included that stream on the right.
Video feed is here: http://www.c-span.org/Watch/C-SPAN3.aspx and archived here.
NOTE: The Wonk Room has an excellent chart on the positions of the service chiefs: The Service Chiefs On DADT Repeal: Two Endorse Lifting The Ban, Marine Chief Opposes Outright.
UPDATE: Big development from Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America – IAVA Joins Top Military Leaders in Supporting Repeal of DADT:
As an organization that represents veterans and troops serving in the current conflicts, our members have a unique perspective on the modern dynamics of this issue. A recent IAVA survey revealed that a clear majority of our membership does not object to gay men and women openly serving in the military. These survey results come after years of extensive discussions with our members, key leaders in the new veterans community and the Department of Defense (DoD), all of which helped IAVA reach an informed decision on this policy. Our membership’s views are consistent with the results of the Pentagon’s Comprehensive Working Group report released earlier this week, which revealed that over two-thirds of servicemembers do not think ending this policy would have an impact on military cohesion and readiness.“IAVA shares Secretary Gates’ and Admiral Mullen’s opinion that upholding the integrity of the military as an institution is critical. All men and women who have committed their lives to service and sacrifice in our military should be treated equally,” IAVA Founder and Executive Director Paul Rieckhoff stated. “We also share the concern of military leaders that a prolonged court battle resulting from failure to repeal DADT legislatively would be damaging and disruptive to our armed forces. Allowing the courts to decide this issue could result in an overnight repeal that may not allow adequate preparation time for troops on the ground. Our military needs clear leadership and guidance on this policy to maintain the highest level of cohesion, effectiveness and readiness. That clarity can only come with legislative action now. We urge the Senate to move quickly to pass the NDAA, including the DADT provision.”
In addition to DADT, the NDAA contains key provisions to expand mental health care resources, address Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) and Military Sexual Trauma (MST) and improve electronic sharing of health records between the DoD and the VA, all issues of critical importance to IAVA’s membership.
(Liveblogging via Sue Fulton, with many thanks for her great work and important commentary! ~Louise)
Friday December 3, 2010
9:11Pam Spaulding: Apologies for the late start we’re live
9:11Sue Fulton: Levin opened the session with the usual review.
We will hear from:Roughead, Navy
Casey, Army
Amos, Marines
Schwartz, Air Force
Papp, Coast Guard (a Service Chief but not technically member of the “Joint Chiefs”)In the past, here is how they rack up as far as DADT repeal:
Roughead: pro-repeal
Casey: anti-repeal
Amos: extremely anti-repeal
Schwartz: anti-repeal
Papp: pro-repealLast week Schwartz came out and said he supports the report, so he may be tepidly pro-repeal at this point.
Amos is considered a probable lost cause, though he has said that if the law changes, Marines will execute repeal better than anyone.
If Casey comes across as PRO-repeal, that puts a lot of pressure on the Senate to go forward.9:11
Sue Fulton: Okay McCain is up!
9:12Sue Fulton: Yesterday he spent a lot of time on Wikileaks. Weird.
9:13Sue Fulton: Oops, above I missed Cartwright, the Vice Chief, who is a Marine.
9:14Sue Fulton: McCain: this capable force COULD implement DADT repeal if we asked them. I want to know WHETHER the law should be repealed…Unfortunately this was not the focus of the study. I am not saying we should leave the decision in their [troops'] hands. But…
He’s not going to leave this point. He really does want the troops to vote.
9:16Sue Fulton: Now he’s going to insult Mullen again. He’s making the point that the Chiefs have command responsibility – unlike the Chairman.
He’s of course ignoring Ham’s command position over US Army Europe. And the many commands he and Mullen have had.
9:16Sue Fulton: “anyone who alleges that I have not listened to the military opinion on this issue is disregarding the record”
9:17Sue Fulton: Levin just interrupted to say “we have a quorum” – they are going to vote on the nomination of an AF General -
9:17Sue Fulton: Okay, that’s done.
9:18Sue Fulton: Cartwright, Vice Chairman. Marine. Let’s see if McCain points out that he, like Mullen, is “not in a command position.”
9:18Sue Fulton: “Troops deserve to have their voices heard on this important issue.”
Cartwright is thanking the Working group for their report.
9:19Sue Fulton: It is my view that implementatoin would involve manageable risk… There is never a perfect time. This may be a better time than one might expect.”
9:19Sue Fulton: I’ll be honest, dear reader… I do not know where Cartwright was expected to be on this issue. But he is clearly supporting repeal.
9:21
[Comment From Candice from West Point]
The wittnesses seem pretty stacked in McCain’s favor… who was behind building this panel?
9:21Sue Fulton: “I believe the men and women of the US Armed Forces…look beyond the issues of race, religion, gender, and frankly, sexual orientation.”
Recognizes “any good survey asks key questions in multiple ways.”
So even though combat troops may be more negative, when “based on actual experience,” there is no issue.
9:22Sue Fulton: Candice – Actually, the addition of the Vice Chairman (Marines) and the Coast Guard Chief seems to have tilted it toward pro-repeal.
9:22Sue Fulton: If you only had the big four – Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines – it’s 2.5 to 1.5 against repeal
9:23Sue Fulton: Cartwright: strong statement.
9:23Sue Fulton: Now it’s Casey. This is critical.
9:24Sue Fulton: Casey: is going to focus on risk to the force
“a major cultural and policy change in the middle of a war”
This is going bad. The report has not changed his mind.
9:25Sue Fulton: “I believe that implemention of repeal in the near term will 1. add another level of stress to an already-stressed force; 2. be more difficult for combat arms; and 3. be more difficult for the Army than the report describes.”
9:25Sue Fulton: Casey may have just killed the bill in the Senate.
9:26Sue Fulton: I mean, he has been known to be anti-repeal, but he is making a strong statement that will give McCain and his cronies cover to avoid repeal.
9:27Sue Fulton: ADM Roughead i s up: will be pro-repeal.
9:28
[Comment From Rick, retired AF]
I definitely need to call my son, a Marine officer, and tell him I found a Marine General with commons sense
9:29Sue Fulton: Rick – it’s like a unicorn!
9:30Sue Fulton: Roughead made a strong statement, but after Casey it won’t help much.
9:30Sue Fulton: to be honest, no one is worried about the Air Force, Navy, or Coast Guard. They are worried about the Marines and the Army combat arms.
9:31Sue Fulton: Amos is up. “policy concerning homosexuality in the Armed Forces” – he has used the word “homosexuality” twice in the first 15 seconds. That’s a tell.
9:32Sue Fulton: We know that Ham and Johnson, after much of their study, that “homosexuals” was pejorative and that “gays and lesbians” was respectful. Amos clearly knows this.
9:33Sue Fulton: Amos: what the survey did not address is the risk to the force, after nine years of combat operations.
This is not true. The survey directly addressed this risk.
9:33Pam Spaulding: FYI there’s an op-ed in USA TODAY by Major General Vance Coleman, “Gays in our military deserve better” http://www.usatoday.com/news/o…
9:34Sue Fulton: Amos, when vetted on this issue, indicated to the White House and the SecDef that he would support repeal. He blindsided him with his opposition.
9:36Sue Fulton: Amos: in the final analysis, could we implement repeal? Yes. We are Marines.
should we implement repeal at this time? Based on what I know about the very tough fight in Afghanistan, the singular focus on training… the tightly woven culture of the Marine Corps.. my recommendation is that we should not implement repeal at this time.
9:36Sue Fulton: Amos and Casey have worked together on this.
9:36Sue Fulton: Schwartz is up. Don’t know where he’ll land.
9:37Sue Fulton: Air Force attitudes are roughly 70-30 positive toward repeal.
9:37Sue Fulton: Schwartz has an unfortunate lisp.
9:37Sue Fulton: When the lispy guy talks about the “complicating factors” of billeting, etc, it is not very comforting.
9:38Sue Fulton: Implementation represents “modest” risk to readiness of the Air Force.
9:39Sue Fulton: “I do not agree with the study that the short-term risk is low… I remain concerned with the study assessment that the risk of repeal among our combat troops in Afghanistan is ‘low’ ”
9:39Sue Fulton: Schwartz’s opposition is probably not decisive. But certainly not helpful.
9:40Sue Fulton: Schwartz recommends deferring full implementation until 2012.
AND he supports Gates’s point that legislative action preferable to judicial. Interesting.
9:41Sue Fulton: Papp, Coast Guard. He concurs with the report’s recommendations on how to implement repeal.
9:41Sue Fulton: He is making the point about DADT being contrary to core values.
9:42Sue Fulton: Papp is pointing out that Coast Guard works closely with first-responders in communities, many of them gay and lesbian.
9:43Sue Fulton: And that views vary among the different branches of service.
9:43Sue Fulton: He’s deferring to the Army and Marine chiefs to some extent – that he is not expert in their branch.
9:44Sue Fulton: Guys, I am so depressed after the strong opinions from Casey and Amos. Not unexpected, but I’m worried that Cartwright, Roughead, and Papp were not strong enough to mitigate.
9:44Sue Fulton: Questioning starts with Levin.
9:45Sue Fulton: Levin to Cartwright: Mullen and Gates indicated that with proper leadership and training, that repeal could be implemented without significant risk.
9:46Sue Fulton: Levin: Now you’re a Marine. Amos is a Marine. But your view is very different. Amos is clearly worried that negative perceptions among Marines is a problem. Can you comment on Amos’s testimony?
9:46Sue Fulton: Cartwright: we were 2LTs together. My view was shaped by talking to, not only Marines, but to members of other services. I am still, and always will be, a Marine…
9:47Sue Fulton: Cartwright: The difference is, when you try to guess what the future will be, stereotypes and misperceptions might influence what you expect the future will be.
9:48Sue Fulton: C: I was more influenced by those … who had actual experience with gays and lesbians… it had no effect on the unit.
There was a SEAL who said, someone in his unit who was gay was the biggest and the meanest, and killed the most people, and the effectiveness of the unit depended on him.
9:49Sue Fulton: Cartwright is very effective pointing out, if you don’t KNOW (someone gay or lesbian), then you are very negative.
9:50Sue Fulton: Levin: asking them about experience of foreign militaries – who changed when opposition within their military was higher than in ours today.
9:52Sue Fulton: Casey pointing out that other countries had broad national consensus and national laws protecting gays that US doesn’t have.
Roughead positive of course.
9:52Sue Fulton: Still reeling from Casey clinging to the point that other countries are more gay-friendly so we can disregard their experience.
9:53Sue Fulton: Has he not seen the poll numbers that 78% of the US approve of gays in the military?
9:54Sue Fulton: Amos: “But we are the USMC. We are heavily involved in combat right now. I can only speak for where we are today, with only 50% of our forces heavily engaged.”
9:54Sue Fulton: Schwartz: “That evidence isnot necessarily compelling… I find that US police and fire depts in the US is a more compelling analogue.”
9:54Sue Fulton: Huh?
9:55Pam Spaulding: Good chart on service chiefs’ positions up at The Wonk Room: “The Service Chiefs On DADT Repeal: Two Endorse Lifting The Ban, Marine Chief Opposes Outright.” http://goo.gl/uogfQ
9:57Sue Fulton: Casey : “Commanders and first sergeants have a lot on their plate”
“if they do this, something else will not get done”Levin: “What will not get done?”
Casey: “I… I … uh can’t tell you specifically, but some of thoes other intellectual tasks…”
9:58Sue Fulton: Levin asks about the need for Congress to act, vs a court decision.
9:58Sue Fulton: Levin is testy that they seem to be ignoring the certification requirement in the legislation, that gives them time to address the issues.
10:00Sue Fulton: Casey: any course of action that gives us appropriate time to prepare is the right course. Whether from Congress or the courts, that’s appropriate.
Levin: Doesnt the time currently in the legislation give you the time you need?
Casey: It does.
10:02Sue Fulton: Gen Amos?
Amos: i think it goes a long way towards easing some of the pressure. I thought a lot about, “if not now, when?”. My concern is singularly those combat units in combat or preparing to go to combat .
I would use the Iraq draw-down as a guide… maybe when combat operations have drawn down
10:02Sue Fulton: McCain is giddy with happiness about the Army and Marine Corps testimony
“obvious there is a lot more scrutiny and work required before passing this legislation”
10:04Sue Fulton: Ana Marie Cox (love huh!) tweets “Casey implying that Army cannot chew gum and integrate openly serving gays into the military at the same time.”
10:05Sue Fulton: Apparently knowing someone in their unit is gay will cripple Marine combat forces.
10:05Sue Fulton: McCain is repeating his “greatest hits” from Casey and Amos testimony.
10:06Sue Fulton: Casey: I believe the law should be repealed eventually. Seems to me the report calls into question the “unit cohesion” argument. I don’t believe that (gays negatively impact unit cohesion). The question for me is one of timing.
McCain (prompting): And at this time?
Casey: I don’t believe that it should be done at this time.
10:07Sue Fulton: Schwartz?
Schwartz (AF): Perhaps full implementation in 2012… I think full implementation at this time is too risky.
10:07Sue Fulton: Schwartz: If you allow us to begin a process of transition, I believe, not in 2011, but maybe in 2012, that would be acceptable to me.
10:08Sue Fulton: McCain: I agree; to rush this thing through in a lame-duck session would not take into consideration, particularly some of the views of our senior enlisted personnel.. they could contribute, as well as our senior officer corps.
10:08Sue Fulton: McCain would like to personally interview every service member to get their opinion on this before he decides…
10:09Sue Fulton: Lieberman: You represent the best values of our country.
Really, Deputy Dawg? Not hearing the value of integrity and honesty from Army or Marines.
10:10Sue Fulton: Lieberman: In the end, each of you have said, you will make it work. Gen Amos, despite the challenges you voiced, you said, at the end of the day the Marine corps will support the law.
Yadda yadda you guys are awesome yadda yadda
10:11Sue Fulton: Lieberman still getting around to a question…
10:12Sue Fulton: Some convoluted question to Amos
10:13Sue Fulton: Amos: Yesterday spoke to MG Mills and a batttalion commander in the most dangerous fight in Afghanistan. i asked both of them their opinions. Both of them said, we are so busy there has not even been one ounce of discussion on this.
You can interpret it that they just don’t care, but
I chose to interpret it based on the survey results that they ARE concerned.
10:13Sue Fulton: Amos translated: I heard that they don’t care, and I chose to interpret that “I agree with whatever my Commandant thinks”
10:14Sue Fulton: Amos’s chief talking point “Marines are singularly focused on combat”
10:14Sue Fulton: Lieberman: it sounds to me you all agree with repeal, just a matter of timing
10:14Sue Fulton: My question: so you have time to investigate and outprocess gays, but not to let them come out?
10:18Sue Fulton: Cartwright: I look at this as an opportunity to tailor the legislation, and to tailor the timing
Lieberman: what if we implement repeal in those not in combat now, those in combat later?
Amos: maybeSchwartz: different timelines for different branches is probably not the best idea
10:18Sue Fulton: Roughead: to repeal on different timelines by service, that is not workable; should be implemented across all services at once
10:20Sue Fulton: Inhofe wants to talk to Casey and Amos first.
Is quoting again the “23.7% said they would leave sooner” if repeal happens
Inhofe: What would that loss do to you, GEN Casey?
Casey: that’s overstated
Inhofe (hastily): okay what if it’s overstated by 50%
Casey: well, there’s an increased level of risk vs low, but since they don’t all leave at the same time, it’s acceptable
Inhofe (talking over Casey): well, what about recruiting?
Amos: I just don’t see that would have an impact.
Inhofe: (fumes).
10:23Sue Fulton: Inhofe back on his concern that “only a third of the people responded to the survey because no one asked them the right questions”
10:24Sue Fulton: Inhofe: Should that question have been asked, whether we should repeal?
Casey: No, the military is not a democracy.
Inhofe: Anyone else? Gen Amos? (pleading)
Amos: No, I’m with the other guys.
Inhofe: (sigh)
10:25Sue Fulton: Amos: I think there was a sense of inevitability, though.
Inhofe (eagerly): I think that’s right!
10:26Sue Fulton: Amos: Then Gen Conway went out and talked to the Marines, and the response rate went up, so we got what we needed.
Inhofe: (frustrated)
10:26Sue Fulton: Inhofe is ending each question with “Anyone want to respond to that General Amos?”
10:29Sue Fulton: Reed to Casey: Is it your conclusion that the presence of gay and lesbian soldiers does not undermine readiness?
Casey: What I said was, the old belief was it was unacceptable risk to good order and discipline, and I don’t think that’s true, based on the survey.
10:29Sue Fulton: Reed is pushing on the point, knowing a soldier is gay has not caused threats to good order and discipline.
10:30Sue Fulton: Reed: So how do you deal with the fact that, there are gays in these units and it doesn’t affect good order and discipline? Couldn’t maintaining this policy cause more trouble than changing it? Gen Casey?
10:31Sue Fulton: Casey: I do think we need to be careful with saying, do you feel this way if you believe someone is gay or lesbian, vs do you KNOW someone is gay or lesbian. There is a difference between believing and knowing, and I think the soldiers would react differently to that.
The single most bizarre statement of the day.
10:31Sue Fulton: Seriously, he’s going to get away with that?
10:31Sue Fulton: Seriously?
10:33Sue Fulton: Reed is following up on the “difference between believing and knowing” – but he’s mumbling a little and not really figuring it out.
It’s okay, Senator, it IS a silly point.
10:34Sue Fulton: Amos: The Marines yadda yadda elite yadda warriors yadda different from everyone else yadda yadda Marine b.s.
10:36Sue Fulton: Amos: 80% of Marine combat forces said they had not served with a gay or lesbian, so we have less experience with this.
One of the comments that came in on the online survey, from a Marine LT… to the effect that gays would upset the delicate balance of unit cohesiveness his unit relies on.
10:36Sue Fulton: Chambliss up.
10:39Sue Fulton: Chambliss: It’s pretty obvious that combat troops, the guys who are in the foxhole, are the ones who have the largest objections to this… as I have been in theater, that’s where I’ve seen the same thing…
Would the repeal of DADT have a positive impact on readiness of your troops?(me: foxholes? in the desert?)
Casey: I believe it would increase the risk on our soldiers in combat.
Chambliss: would it result in higher injury or loss of life?
Casey: it could, but I’m not going to say it would.10:41
Sue Fulton: Amos: (long hesitation) it could impact readiness.
Chambliss: to others, would it have the potential of increase in injury or loss of life
Amos: I think the potential for damage is there.
Chambliss (satisfied)
10:42Sue Fulton: Webb: You could have sat every trooper down and asked them these questions, but we heard from 160,000 troops.
I hope that we all read the whole survey rather than… cherry-pick(ing) number out of the survey.Webb is praising GEN Ham and his integrity. Excellent.
10:43Sue Fulton: Webb: I will focus on two questions:
1. ability to tailor this process – I initially thought maybe combat arms would be phased in separately, but from what I’m hearing, that’s not on the table. Gen Cartwright?
10:44Sue Fulton: Cartwright: The study does provide the opportunity to structure the implementatoin. We could look at it by theater, by branch, as long as it makes sense on the battlefield.
Our opinion varies as to how. By time, by unit, by theater, by deployment cycle… Most of our services are mixed; we’d have to look at what works
10:45Sue Fulton: Webb and Cartwright discussing how implementation might be structured. Webb wants to know how it will be structured: Cartwright is saying the Chiefs will decide.
10:46Sue Fulton: Schwartz tries to object, Webb says, hey I don’t have time for you. Wimp.
10:46Sue Fulton: Sorry guys, trying to capture a lot. Excuse my editorializing.
10:47Sue Fulton: Webb: Point 2.
When someone is serving well, and is gay or lesbian, what is it we should be doing when they’re 15 years in their service, and they want to be able to live an open, honest lifestyle? what do we do with them?
10:48Sue Fulton: If DADT still in effect?
Webb: yes, if their conduct is above reproach?
Casey: We follow the law.
10:49Sue Fulton: Webb: I understand, I’m talking about the human dimension.
Casey: We follow the law.
Webb: But what about the human dimension?
Casey: I understand. We follow the law.
10:49Sue Fulton: Papp (CG) If I might; we need clear and unambiguous guidance… our leaders are getting confusing guidance, perhaps being told to exercise selective obedience… Need to be clear.
10:49Sue Fulton: Go Coast Guard!
10:51Sue Fulton: Grandpa Levin: the results of the survey reveal a widespread opinion that repeal of DADT will not have an effect on their ability to perform their mission. I am putting the whole report in the record.
10:53Sue Fulton: Thune: How do we weigh your opinions vs Chairman of the JCS and SecDef?
Should the legislation require Service Chiefs to certify prior to repeal?
Casey: No, not necessary.
Thune: (paraphrasing): come on, really?
Casey: My views will be heard by the CJCS. If you put that in the law, it will undercut the Chairman, I don’t agree with that.
(none of the other chiefs are biting).
10:58Sue Fulton: Is Thune the most boring member of the committee? I dozed off a bit there.
10:59Sue Fulton: Udall is entering the Palm Center presser into the record!!
11:04Sue Fulton: Udall: Secy Gates comments on certification: isn’t that enough for you guys (sue paraphrasing)
Casey: I would agree, and I am comfortable with my ability to get my opinions to Sec Gates.
All the other chiefs agree.
11:04Sue Fulton: This is going to go long today.
11:06Sue Fulton: Udall asking again, if we change this policy, can you make it work?
They’ve all already said yes, now they’re saying yes again.Casey is sticking to “moderate risk.”
11:06Sue Fulton: An aside before we listen to Mississippi SEN Wicker
11:08Sue Fulton: The report’s summary specifically said the risk to readiness of repealing DADT was assessed as LOW.
Several of the chiefs wanted the report to say LOW TO MODERATE. The Working Group thanked them for their opinion and published as LOW.This is why Casey keeps saying “the risk is MODERATE.” It is a real sticking point to him. Probably a little irritated at Ham, who is also a four-star, and did this job reporting to SecDef, not Casey himself.
11:08Sue Fulton: Wicker: drone drone drone I remember last Christmas, we were talking abou t healthcare drone
11:09Sue Fulton: Wicker: Is this the time to putting more stress on our troops? Should be putting all their talents and energies toward winning the war?
Sounds like a case AGAINST DADT, not FOR.
11:11Sue Fulton: Wicker asks Amos to repeat the quote from the young Marine Lieutenant.
Amos: His team, his unit, relies on cohesiveness: “Despite differences, we anticipate each other’s moves.” “It’s an almost filial love” “To add any element of sexual competition, intra-unit sexuality, would destroy” the bonds.
11:11Sue Fulton: Homo-erotic much?
11:11Sue Fulton: Wicker: I can’t imagine that situation is going to be that different in 2012 or 2013. We’re always going to be asking that type of fighting man to be operating under those kinds of conditions.
11:12Sue Fulton: Amos: My recommendation is not to do this as long as we have forces in combat…
I’m assuming sometime in our future we will come out of Afghanistan. Some time when we have more elasticity, more flexibility in our training schedule.
11:13Sue Fulton: Amos is like McCain – delay delay delay
11:14Sue Fulton: Pam just tweeted that IAVA announced support for DADT repeal! This is HUGE>
11:14Sue Fulton: Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America
11:15Sue Fulton: Wicker believes most people kicked out under DADT came forward and made statements and asked to be separated.
Wicker: Can any of you talk abou t how the 13,000 were kickedout?
We can all agree they were not rounded up in witchhunts.
11:15Sue Fulton: OMG Wicker is trying to say the DADT separations were voluntary
11:20Sue Fulton: Chiefs are saying separations are predominantly statements, people who came forward and said they were gay
11:20Sue Fulton: Manchin talking about Chaplains.
11:21Sue Fulton: Re discharges, from Aaron Belkin at the Palm Center: They’re about 85% statements. Roughly half of the 85% is people who just want to get out of jail free, including straight malingerers. The other half is people facing harassment who have no other choice but to come out, or who simply cannot tolerate living the lie anymore.
11:21Sue Fulton: But how many leave on their own, like me?
11:21Sue Fulton: None of the fundie churches is willing to pull their chaplains out of the military.
11:22Sue Fulton: Schwartz pointed out that all chaplains have a mandate to “minister to the entire flock”
11:22Sue Fulton: Papp backing up Schwartz.
Most of the Chiefs think there will be little change with Chaplains.
11:23Sue Fulton: Manchin is sitting like a little kid, leaning forward in his chair, clasping his hands between his knees.
11:25Sue Fulton: Casey: You may have come up with a question that is above our pay grade.
Manchin: I didn’t believe that was possible.
(gosh you guys are SO AMAZING and i’m just glad to be here!!)
11:25Sue Fulton: Sessions. Oh lord.
11:25Sue Fulton: Sessions: A majority of soldiers oppose the change. We shouldn’t be under the impression there is a groundswell of support for this.
11:26Sue Fulton: Sessions: The Army, Marines, and Air Force all have questions about this.
(Thank you, Senator Sessions, for keeping score for those of us who haven’t been paying attention for, i dunno, the last six months)
11:27Sue Fulton: Sessions to Schwartz. Wants to talk about procurement.
11:28Sue Fulton: Anyone know about this? a release of an analysis of procurement proposals?
11:28Sue Fulton: This former soldier (me) is confused and bored by discussions about procurement.
11:28Sue Fulton: Ok, back to DADT.
11:30Sue Fulton: Sessions challenging Papp about his statement that there is confusion in the law.
Sessions: I have looked at the law, and I am ABSOLUTELY convinced that this… will be upheld by the Supreme court. They have always granted latitude to the military.(now he’s attacking Kagan. Getting angry about it too!)
11:31Sue Fulton: Sessions: jeh Johnson should not have been appointed to this Working Group because he did not push to send the Witt case back to the lower court.
11:31Sue Fulton: Sessions: (weird pause. He can’t find something).
11:32Sue Fulton: Sessions: I’m not here to condemn anybody. We live in a great country, all kinds of people……
But I did notice one of the questions, they asked indivs who served with gays, did it affect readiness, the number was pretty high that morale/effectiveness was affected negatively. 45% or so. Seems to me pretty high. Is that correct, Gen Amos?
11:33Sue Fulton: Amos: I’ve drawn a blank. I know how many Marines have served with gays, I don’t recall that question.
Sessions (paraphrasing) I’m done now.
11:33Sue Fulton: Hagan is up. Starts out talking about leadership.
11:34Sue Fulton: Hagan: how will the JCS and the Service Chiefs coordinate this so it can be universally implemented at the same time?
Cartwright: we would sit down and meet to discuss the different concerns.. . yadda yaddaDuh.
11:35Sue Fulton: Amos: Chapter 13 in the report has a good plan to get started.
Each of the services has an operational planning team to tackle this.
11:37Sue Fulton: Hagan: GEN Casey: timeframe?
Casey: Until we have a chance to study it more, none of us here would want to state a timeframe.
Roughead (in a slap to Casey): I would expect some months. Long stretches of uncertainty are not good for morale and effectiveness.
Schwartz: I would add except for the caveat to look at combat forces especially.
11:37Louise: Hi Sue; sorry I wasn’t able to be here sooner!
11:37Sue Fulton: Hagan: Do you think the uncertainty driven by court opinions is negatively affecting the force? and Congress action would be better?
Objection, leading the witness.
11:38Sue Fulton: Hey louise, we got a tiny bit of a late start but it’s all good.
11:38Sue Fulton: Chiefs in favor of repeal agreeing with Hagan, Chiefs oppose disagree.
11:40Sue Fulton: http://iava.org/blog/iava-join…
Link for IAVA endorsement of DADT repeal
11:40Sue Fulton: Hagan quoting from the report. Asking how have forces evolved since 1993 around this issue?
11:41Sue Fulton: Casey: I didn’t listen to all of ADM Mullen’s testimony, but…
SNAP!
11:41Sue Fulton: sorry, Hagan quoted from Mullen’s testimony, not the report.
11:43Sue Fulton: Papp talking about Academies’ integration of women!
11:43Sue Fulton: Nobody cares.
11:43Sue Fulton: Brown from Massachusetts.
11:44Sue Fulton: Brown: We’re working on everything except the one thing that matters, JOBS. But I very much appreciate working on this issue. I yadda I yadda I yadda I all-about-me
11:45Sue Fulton: Brown: I’ve talked to about a thousand people, in CONUS, also outside CONUS
(CONUS is cool-military-speak for Continental US. Duty tours inside CONUS vs outside are counted differently).Brown: I probably understand this issue better than anyone here who hasn’t served… why didn’t you just have the commanders sit the troops down and say, fill out this survey!
11:46
Sue Fulton: Roughead (paraphrasing): it’s the 21st century, we have the interwebs now, dude
11:46Sue Fulton: Brown: in my 31 years, I never thought you could voluntarily fill out a survey, the commander says get it done period.
11:47Sue Fulton: Brown: Is your opinion: I’m not opposed to repeal, but concerned about the impact on battle troops on the front line
Cartwright: The issue of, can we put one more stone in the rucksack, we have different concerns.
11:48Sue Fulton: Brown: the only important issue to me is the safety and security of our forces… implementing a social change in a time of war is a concern of yours, I get that.
Quite frankly, I’m a little surprised at the forthright nature of your testimony, and I appreciate that.
11:49Sue Fulton: Brown reassuring the Chiefs their concerns will be respected
“I and many others share those concerns.”
11:50Sue Fulton: Brown: If it’s done overnight, I’m hearing it will be exceedingly disruptive to the force.
Brown talks for about five minutes, then
Is there anything I said that you disagree with?Oy
11:51Sue Fulton: Cartwright: We will plan thoroughly… The details will unfold in the process.
11:52
Sue Fulton: Observation:
Casey continues to position himself as the leader of this group.
Roughead in particular doesn’t like it. Papp doesn’t seem to give a flip about the rest of them.
11:54Louise: Sue, same as yesterday I am cutting/pasting all of the live blog to the Pam’s House Blend post- it is available “below the fold”. I’ll send you a link as well.
11:54Sue Fulton: Levin: Re warfighting units, here’s what the report says:
While a higher % of warfighting units PREDICT negative consequences… when you compare warfighters who’ve served with gays or lesbians to non-warfighters, there is no signif difference in their prediction (89% to 92%) that there are no negative consequences.
11:56Sue Fulton: Levin: quotes the “gay guy who was the biggest, meanest, and killed a lot of guys” quote.
Gen Amos, I guess he wasn’t a Marine.Amos: I don’t doubt that in any outpost there is someone like that.
But 80% of our combat Marines haven’t served with gays or lesbians.
Levin: what about the ones who have?
Amos: Well. I imagine they’re more tolerant.
11:59Sue Fulton: Levin: What % of 2.2MM currently serving are in combat units? A minority?
Chiefs: not sure of numbersLevin scolding Schwartz: Why is 2012 the right time? won’t we be in combat?
Schwartz: it.. it.. now is too soon…
Levin: you don’t know how many will be in combat in 2011
Schwartz: I… I… I…
Schwartz: you can’t disaggregate the force
Levin: I agree with that.
Schwartz: Sir, I… what I offered in my testimony was that we… could begin training after you implement repeal
Levin: you have to repeal before implementation comes.
Schwartz (pause).
12:00Sue Fulton: I can’t transcribe all of this, but Levin is annihilating Schwartz over the 2012 delay proposal.
Now he is ranting, we’re not RUSHING this. we’ve been working on this for months. Years!
12:00Sue Fulton: I’m kinda loving Granpa Levin right now.
12:01Sue Fulton: Levin is speechifying now, we can’t get this bill to the floor, to support our troops. We didn’t pick the lame-duck. People said, wait until we get the report. WE didn’t set the time for the report.
This is actually pretty awesome.
12:03Sue Fulton: McCain: sausage quote
as in, two things you never want to see made, laws and sausage
12:03Sue Fulton: McCain: in all my campaign, no one came up to me and said, please repeal DADT. Everywhere I went, military folks said, please keep DADT.
But more than that, they want jobs.
12:04Sue Fulton: McCain now speechifying, railing at Dems over not renewing tax cuts.
12:04Sue Fulton: Everyone’s testy.
12:05Sue Fulton: Back to DADT:
McC: I appreciate the candor of those testifying.
We shouldn’t impugn the character of anyone here.
ADM R, GEN C, I disagree but I respect your opinion.
12:05Sue Fulton: McCain, after just impugning the character of the Democrats.
12:07Sue Fulton: McCain wants to hear from all the senior NCOs, all the component commands, men and women serving…
“I am more than eager to have additional hearings throughout the coming year… examining all the ramifications of it…”
12:08Sue Fulton: Lieberman: Of course I agree with McCain that jobs are a priority… but we can do both!
12:09Sue Fulton: This second round clearly for speechifying.
12:11Sue Fulton: Lieberman: quoting the report that only 15% of gay and lesbian servicemembers want their unit to know they’re gay.
12:11Sue Fulton: Good point, Deputy Dawg!
12:14Sue Fulton: Lieberman is going on and on. making some good pts tho.
Now talking about requirement for SecDef to certify. That this will announce most issues.
12:16Sue Fulton: McCain is wrapping up: The testimony today clearly indicates we should not rush forward on this issue or pass legislation.
Mentions “pork” and abortion funding in the defense bill that will keep it from getting tothe floor.
12:17Sue Fulton: “finest and best military this nation has ever seen which contradicts my friend’s contention about all the problems this policy has supposedly caused.”
McCain impugning the honor of his own friend Lieberman.
12:17Sue Fulton: Levin getting the last word.
12:19Sue Fulton: Thats all folks.
Thanks for being here!Thanks especially to our longtime friends at Pam’s House Blend. Hey, the baristas run an amazing show on a shoestring – put some coin in the jar at pamshouseblend.com – please.
I gotta run – love you guys.
-Sue
12:19Louise: Sue, thanks for the great blogging!
19 Comments
LIVE DADT COVERAGE ….at the LGBT Newscenter via CBS News
http://lgbtrainbowlinksnewscen…
CaseyI’ve been posting by mistake in yesterday’s liveblog.
He’s proving a long-held belief that he should never have been confirmed. Chickens are coming home to roost for Dems on their lack of spine and vision on this/him.
How long we’ve been at warI’m really not sure how to interpret what they’ve been implying or alluding to, with this.
It sounds like the deployed force is fragile, because of it, in any number of ways.
Why do we have so many re-upping their enlistments?
We’ve even been growing the forces by several thousands a year, for the past two years.
So, what gives with alluding to how long we’ve been at war?
More career callousnessCasey is unwilling to elaborate on the hurtful and harmful effect of enforcing the law. Simply says, in response to Webb, “I understand and we will enforce the law”.
Leadership <> automaton, even in a rules-based organization like the military.
AmosJust thinking aloud: how much time does it really take to explain a new policy in a hands-on way, pun intended?
To get it up and running, it might be just a few hours?
I mean to run people through harassment training, could be eight hours, tops?
ManchinHis questions on legality to a panel of service chiefs prove that Dems don’t caucus enough among themselves…
McCainFor a guy who just declared this issue the most important and grave, perhaps ever, in the history of the known world, that might make time itself stop,…
… his chair seems suspiciously empty for a long time now.
Where is he?
Melt DownI am wondering if this committee hearing will be the breaking point for old man McCain. He had been showing signs of China Syndrome for several years, IIRC he blew up on the 2008 campaign trail several times; also doing that stalking bit on stage.
The fact that he is irrelevant may be sinking in with the result of a full blown melt down in the hearing. He is not going to get his way of returning to the good old days when queers knew their place and men were not afraid of taking a shower and picking up a bar of soap.
Sad end to a career, but then his career has never been good for anybody except him.
Sue Fulton’s liveblogging now availablePosted below the fold and will be updated, as to have the entire day’s blogging archived. Many, many thanks to her for her stellar work!
Now he will hold up the entire Authorization……which includes re-authorization of military bonuses, among other things…
Amazing!How does she type so fast and well? Voice recognition software?
Not that I think it is the right answer by any means, butThey are talking as though repealing DADT automatically requires keeping out gay troops in frontline combat units.
If that’s the whole concern, and they are saying that this could wait until after we pull out of Afghanistan and then be implemented, they are essentially saying that they are confident that openly gay troops could serve in the NEXT war, whenever that turns up.
So, why isn’t immediate repeal, with a phased implementation to combat troops an option? Someone comes out, they get reassigned to a non-combat role? Or the same rules as for women – combat adjacent or combat support, but not front line combat?
Openly gay people don’t get thrown out, but their precious “too busy not to be homophobic” units get a two to four year phase in? And closeted gay people get the choice whether to come out or not (which they will still have, no matter what.)
Guarantee that if they do, they’ll figure out how to phase it in real fast – when public opinion both in and out the the service shifts instantly from “Scary gays” to “Wait, how come they get to skip out on combat?”
Foreign militariesAgain with the “not involved in heavy combat” BS. The Canadians and the British sustained sometimes immense casualties in southern Afghanistan. Especially the Canadians, given their relatively small contingent. The Danes have the highest per-capita causality rate in all of ISAF. German and American soldiers are serving in northern Afghanistan side by side now – also in heavy combat:
http://www.stripes.com/news/mi…
Well, if I were one of his colleagues,I’d be taunting him just enough to give him the rope he needs.
Scott Brown…maybe he’ll vote for cloture, but he’s a disappointment as a Senator.
He wants to talk about jobs, but his party has no idea on how to do that. None. Including for gay and lesbian servicemembers…
Actually on jobsI don’t think (from what I’ve observed) that Scott Brown has been bad at all; he’s voted for a few job bills (granted he’s had cover of other Rethug Senators who voted for them).
Brown is interestin in that he has a re-election coming up in 2012 and the teabaggerd are already out to get him in Massachusetts as well as Massachusetts liberals.
My sense of it is if somehow someway that they can get 2-3 Rethug votes for cloture, then Scott Brown would vote for it.
What jobs bills?The small business stuff?
Anyway, it looks like he’s going for the whole ball of wax, cloture and repeal.
Here’s his voting recordright here. (You may be right!)
Anyway, the teabaggers want to take him out for some reason.
At all comes back to leadership and “Fierce Advocacy”Truman was presented with a starkly different report from the troops regarding African American integration. He choose the “Fierce Advocacy” path versus Obama appointing a homophobe as Marine Commandant to give cover for DOING NOTHING:
http://gay.americablog.com/201…