OK, now I have long been in favorof a “Black English” course being taught as, say, a linguistic anthropology class or something like that.
But it’s not a common language; in fact, I would say that “Black English” is pretty much limited to the young and the…uh, poor.
And, as you say, there are too many regional variants. Oh, let’s not even get into the variant possibilities that might be spoken, say, in New Orleans.
By the way, I guess this is a job that I’m not qualified for since I’m not proficient in Ebonics (in spite of being a member of the black community…)

Sorry, cannot comment in Ebonics…But kudos to anyone still talking at all after THREE martinis!

Then what about…I was raised in the hills of Kentucky and can get into a dialect that you will never comprehend if raised outside Appalachia.  Does the DEA need help there too?   After all, that’s where a lot of marijuana is raised.  :)

I’m offended…that the DEA doesn’t want to hire me to speak in my native Appalachian-bonics.
They do know Appalachia is the largest domestic producer of marijuana, right?
Strange, some of the linguistic examples cited for Ebonics are the same as Appalachian-bonics I slip back into when I go home — or when I just get tired or angry.
Seems like they need a more specialized research staff as well.

Kudos..to you for getting the thought up first.

“Excuse me, Stewardess, I speak Jive”Who would have thought a joke from “Airplane” would still be relevant?

Well, you’re right, I thinkMost things that are commonly considered to be “African-American” are, in fact, Southern and, in some cases, Appalachian…and that applies to the entirety of the culture.
It includes food, dialects, and whatnot.

I speak Pittsburghese. Can I get a job with DEA?Pittsburghese is a distinct regional dialect, every bit as much as Ebonics (if not more so).  Yinz guys shoont make fun.  Ulnt wanna go ere.  Um gunna go crack the windle an watch em Pahrts an em Stiwwers, nkay?

Hey gimmee pop fruma icebox when yer inna kitchen kay?…from somewhere between Pittsburgh, the Appalachians, and the Great Lakes. Kin I havva job now?

Oh, that’s the Great Lakes/Midwestyou gave yourself away with “pop”
But you know…
I remember when I lived in New York where some “criminal queens” I knew could speak several variants of pig latin and could do it extremely fast.
And a couple of them informed me that the cops understood what they were saying.
So I would assume that you would want someone who’s good at the regional dialect.
I mean, I don’t think they would put up an ad here if there wasn’t a need (but nine of them?
And…besides, just a thought here, but wouldn’t a cryptologist work just as well in this case?

Goes to show that the War on Drugsis a complete failure.

The dialectWhat you refer to as “Great Lakes/Midwest” is actually called Inland North.  The usage of “pop” is one of the biggest giveaways.  It’s spoken in the Buffalo, NY area, Northern Illinois, Wisconsin, parts of Michigan (especially the U.P.), parts of Iowa and Minnesota.
Here’s a link to a quiz, which seems overly simplistic, but seems to peg me pretty accurately.
http://www.gotoquiz.com/what_a…

hillbillyi fall back in my hillbilly talk when i’m pissed off or tired…or extremely relaxed

Oh, Detroit born and raisedand it’s “pop” all day long. You come talking about a soda, you’d better have some ice cream in it.

My resultsYour Result: The Midland
“You have a Midland accent” is just another way of saying “you don’t have an accent.” You probably are from the Midland (Pennsylvania, southern Ohio, southern Indiana, southern Illinois, and Missouri) but then for all we know you could be from Florida or Charleston or one of those big southern cities like Atlanta or Dallas. You have a good voice for TV and radio.

MidlandMy other half’s family was from Blue Island (4th generation) – they spoke with a Midland accent.  Blue Island is a strange place though…..
And if it has ice cream in it, it’s a float, or a black cow!

“… is not a language …”What’s the alternative? Have no one who understands “Ebonics”? Seems only common sense that if a group of people speaks a language that someone else can’t understand, an interpreter is needed.
Also, on what basis can you say it’s not a dialect? To my knowledge, it has all the characteristics linguists use to identify languages and dialects, eg its own grammar, syntax. All language is regional, cultural and changing. Do we get to deny a language its status as a language because we don’t like its associations or where it comes from?

Going to tread very carefully hereBecause I believe there are more than the traditional definitions of language/dialect at play in this situation. Cultural perceptions are a factor here as well.
Yes, to someone unaccostomed to listening to this type of speech, it IS difficult to understand, but I can’t believe that with a little bit of familiarization that any speaker of standard American English would have a hard time getting used to it.  There are certainly a lot of slang terms used but the same can be said of someone who works in IT, or social services, just to name a few.  Does that make their words a different language or dialect?  I don’t think so.
I think the whole “Ebonics” thing is a cop-out, from some  lazy cops, who don’t want to do their jobs.  They need to learn the “technical terms” of their clientele, however crude, and do what they are paid to do.
Bottom line:  Ebonics is not a separate dialect/language and does not require “linguists” who specialize in it.  Following this reasoning, the Gabor sisters (Zsa Zsa, Eva, and Magda) would have required translators when they spoke English, due to their thick Hungarian accents.

re: Phil treading carefullyAAVE (I’m going to start calling it this, since I think that’s the term linguists use) is not merely a set of slang terms added onto standard US English. Nor is it comparable to a technical field with its own technical terms. AAVE has its own grammar and other elements by which linguists identify a language.
This answers some basic questions about AAVE, from the POV of a trained linguist: http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/…
In my experience, this reflects the consensus of linguists.

Whether or not it’s an official language…..As evidenced by the folks outside my window here in Harlem, there is a very real and distinctive Africa-American vernacular with strong socio-cultural-linguistic characteristics.  Just like in Black cultures in the Caribbean.  
What’s notable is that most Black people have a direct link to this language system either personally or via immediate family members.
I may have been raised in a Jewish home in an Asian neighborhood out in San Francisco, but my Black cousins and aunts/uncle down in Texas have a far different relationship with language than I do.
I know it doesn’t serve your “gaystream” rhetoric to align yourself with such people, Pam — but such is the reality of African American culture in 2010.
The irony is that most Black people probably have no problem conceding to this linguistic reality.  It’s called everyday life.
Sadly, these folks — like minorities and working class Americans in general — have no place in the pseudo-elitist realm that folks like you, Pam, have sold your souls to so-call “lead”.

You know one can acknowledge all of thatwithout getting personal Kaufman.
But, of course, we know that you like to vamp and tramp between identities.
And you know what, I don’t have those types of connections to “Ebonics” that you think all of us minorities and working-class Americans” that you would think, and I’m from Detroit. And I was taught to say “ask” insted of “axe” and “four” instead of “fo’”…and all of my nieces and nephews were taught the same way.
So how dare you say that African American culture is this one thing where all blacks should be able to relate and identify with; a lot of that is generational as well as class and (as you note) geographically based.

Bonafide bougies wanting to flashtheir street cred to someone from Bed-Sty-Do-or-Die.
It’s a weird world we live in.

Inland North. They got me exactly.You may think you speak “Standard English straight out of the dictionary” but when you step away from the Great Lakes you get asked annoying questions like “Are you from Wisconsin?” or “Are you from Chicago?” Chances are you call carbonated drinks “pop.”

Bad grammaris bad grammar is bad grammar.

What’s interesting is that a lot of people in my old hometown say “axe” for “ask” and they’re white.But then, some people think that the rural Appalachian Scots-Irish-Germans are a distinct minority group too. I’ve often been struck by how many of their words coincide with words heard among rural African Americans, including the transposition or substitution of certain consonants: axe for ask, chimbley for chimney, chirren for children, etc. The accents are different but the words are the same.
Perhaps that could be said of many rural poor people in the United States, no matter the color of their skin.
My impression is that urban slang is very different.
I’m sort of musing here, although I’m sure that David Kaufman thinks I’m just a white elitist. Maybe so. Don’t get all mad now Kaufman.

Different grammaris different grammar is different grammar.
Just because it’s not Standard American English, doesn’t make it wrong. Just different.

Yeah, but I do wonderwhether it’s “black English” or “ebonics,” though.
It’s like with food (which is as much of a cultural marker as language) I’ve met some southern white folks that can “put their” foot into some soul food.
Soul food is not, per se, a black American thing, it’s really a Southern thing although there are some ethnic variations.
It seems to me that it’s the same way with “Ebonics.”

I have to admit, I’ve always been confused on the whole grammar part of the argument.
Then I remembered that Google is my friend
http://www.stanford.edu/~rickf…

Go into a job interviewand speak that way. See how far it gets one. Not far, I’d say. If you do it for kicks among your friends and family, that’s a completely different story. But actually speaking that way in the real world in front of real employers is just embarrassing.

“We was”is my favorite needle in the eye. And yes, I’ve heard people from all ethnicities and backgrounds use it. WTF??

Thank you, Donicaor as some of us black Americans say, we have to learn to be “bilingual.”
Now of course one has to assume that the people being taped are part of an underground economy (read: drugs).
Most black Americans- even those that know their Ebonics- knows to speak a more standard English when out in the world away from David Kaufman’s window.
Their relationship to the language is situational.

I have an example, hereA pet peeve of mine here in Chicago is when people pronounce “Loyola” “Lie-ola.”
I willing to bet that this type of phonology is supposedly a part of “Black English” But I know a lot of white people (and a lot of black people) in the Chicago area that pronounce “Loy” “Lie”…at least when it comes to this particular word (which is an -el stop as well as a local university)

What does that have to do with the price of fish?Whether you can go into a job interview speaking AAVE is irrelevant to whether it’s a real language, a real dialect or so-called bad grammar.
Try going into a job interview speaking Inuit or Shetlandic. Just because a language doesn’t have currency outside a particular context, doesn’t make it incorrect, illegitimate or worthy of scorn.
If a kid comes into a school speaking French or Spanish, you don’t tell them their language is wrong. You affirm their own language, but you teach them the language that’s appropriate in school and in contexts outside their home.
Why then should we teach kids speaking AAVE that the language of their community is wrong and shameful? Why can’t we just say, “That’s your language at home and in your neighbourhood, but in school and in work we speak like this”?

Being bilingualBeing “bilingual” is fine and the way it should be. I just don’t understand why we have to denigrate one to promote the other. Calling one “bad” is denigration–and it’s relative. SAE is bad grammar by the standard of any other language or dialect. Different doesn’t equal bad.

Let me explain…Let me explain my own stake in this.
I’m not black and I don’t know many African Americans. (I have always lived between Canada and the UK.) I am a bit of an armchair linguist, however, and have read a lot on the subject, from an academic perspective. I know enough on the subject to know how language works.
I grew up mainly in Liverpool, England, which, like any region, has its own English variants. Since I began studying linguistics, I have learned to appreciate and celebrate linguistic differences, rather than dismiss them because they don’t conform to “proper English.” I love noticing the nuances of grammar and vocabulary that make the language of Scousers unique.
It breaks my heart when friends from Liverpool apologize to me for getting a word “wrong” or not using “proper grammar,” because in that I see they’re ashamed of their native language. Like standard English, Liverpool English has its own cultural origins–it just happens to be different. So what? Every country in the world has its own variant of English, whether the UK, US, Canada, Australia or India. It’s no different from one city or region having a different variant from the next city or region. The only difference is scale.

Being bilingual and speaking bad, incorrect English and trying to establish it as a legitimate language are two different matters. I don’t understand why people would be proud to sound like a moron.

Very legitimate points, Daveand I see where you are coming from. Unfortunately, people are judged harshly by the way they speak. I think society at large is becoming too forgiving in allowing the dumbing down of the English language. Using slang among one’s friends and family are fine. Most everybody does it. But when, as Pam pointed out, a school wants to teach the children using this slang, what good is that going to do in the real world?

Well, there’s a lot to unpack hereas I said, I think as a college level course, I have to problem with teaching Ebonics.
And I do think that Ebonics is a little more complicated than just slang; it also has to do with phonology and grammar.
And people really did accuse Shakespeare of “dumbing down the language” in his own time, when all he really was doing was using Elizabethean street slang (and that was at a time right after the vowel shift in the English language).
Language is dynamic, not static and, in fact, I think that today’s English language is every bit as dynamic as the language of Shakespeare’s day.

please

I know it doesn’t serve your “gaystream” rhetoric to align yourself with such people, Pam — but such is the reality of African American culture in 2010.

I come from a family that lived and lives in Bed Stuy Brooklyn and none of them speak AAVE and never have, even though there clearly are many people who do speak it.
Of course I know it exists, and as I made the point in my post, the vernacular is not the same everywhere in the country, and for the purposes of the DEA, how do you test proficiency in “Ebonics” — that’s absurd.

“Teaching Ebonics”To my knowledge, in the Oakland controversy, the school wanted to use AAVE as a bridge to teaching Standard American English. The basic idea makes sense to me. If you teach a Russian to speak English, you teach them in Russian. So you teach an AAVE kid to speak SAE using AAVE.
I’m not sure why you keep insisting on calling AAVE “slang,” “bad,” “incorrect” and “dumbing down.” None of these things is supported by linguistic research, which I believe began at least 25 years before the Oakland situation brought it to public attention.
As for the value of teaching or affirming children in a dialect like AAVE, you could direct the “no good in the real world” charge at any dialect or language not used in the so-called “real world.” There are many such languages, but far from denigrating them, researchers and linguists are out there fighting to keep them alive. Why? In every language is a culture and a history of a people. To me, calling the language of an entire group of people dumb or useless sounds like saying their story is worthless.

On sounding like a moron…I could say some super-offensive things about, say, African tribes and how their languages sound to my ears, but I’d be called racist. Yet they too speak languages that have no currency outside their tribes and that may be judged by outsiders. Yet it’s all right to denigrate the language of a group in the US by calling their language illegitimate and saying they sound like morons? What if their language too has its own grammar, vocabulary and syntax?
Society has made lots of headway battling prejudice based on gender, sexuality and race, but linguistic prejudice has barely been challenged.

‘Scuse Me“That’s HillWilliam to you, sir!” -Cletus, The Simpsons
But don’t we ALL do this, though?  

Amen, Kevin!It is largely class, in my opinion. I was raised by a mixed race, middle-class family from various parts of the South. Now, we may say certain words with a southern accent (or toss out sayings and idioms that are distinctly southern) but nonetheless, we were similarly taught to pronounce words correctly. On top of that, my mother was an English tutor and teacher so speaking incorrectly was a definite no-no in the house.
Conversely, some of my distant cousins (regardless of “race”) actually do say “axe”, “fo”, etc. because they were taught that speaking correctly meant “talkin’ white” or “trying to sound smart” or “being uppity”.