UPDATE: I’m bumping this back up; see below.
I can’t even begin to contemplate what kind of boobs there must be in the Pentagon to even go here — establishing segregation in our military as a solution for the homophobes in the ranks. Whatever happened to “following orders?” These bigots in the Pentagon really are as obsessive about sex/violence as Elaine Donnelly.
[Pentagon spokesman Geoff] Morrell also insisted that the questions with which most critics took the most umbrage — i.e., those related to lifestyle issues like socializing outside of work as well as showering and sharing barracks with openly gay and lesbian colleagues (as though that does not currently occur) — were developed as part of a process within the department and the working group to address the “privacy” issues of concern to heterosexual members of the military. Morrell said, “We think it would be irresponsible to conduct a survey that did not address these questions,” but insisted they were asked to help the military determine what adjustments might be necessary “when DADT is repealed.”In response to questions from reporters, Morrell clarified that the survey responses could lead the military to conclude that it would “perhaps need adjustments to facilities themselves,” indicating that it is not outside the realm of possibility that, in order to preserve the privacy and modesty of heterosexual service members in group showers and barracks, the military would consider segregating gay and lesbian service members in some way.
What does our fierce advocate have to say about segregation even being floated as an option by Morrell?
UPDATE: John @ Americablog picked up this story about Morrell’s absurd statement and runs with it, in the context of hearing from friends who are still asking him why many LGBTs are pissed off at this President:
They’re talking about the possibility of segregation, people. Of instituting a policy of separate-but-equal in the year 2010, under a Democratic president.It’s what they did to Barack Obama’s father. Does no one in the White House get the irony here? And does no one understand the political danger here? Does Jim Messina really want to see people showing up at Obama 2012 campaign rallies with the word “Colored” written in ink on their foreheads? With signs saying “Barack, would you segregate your own father?” and “George Wallace Obama”? Or how about simply a crowd of protesters at every event – and every fundraiser the President does for congressional races – wearing signs saying “I am a man”?
If one of his own administration spokesmen says segregation is an option, and President Obama doesn’t shut that conversation down immediately, and fire the bigot who had the audacity to even suggest such a thing – and he clearly hasn’t, as this segregation talking point keeps coming out of this Obama administration – then President Obama is to blame.
Actually, the metaphor of the lunch counters and fountains is not quite the way I see it, though by raising it in this context shows how clueless about how bigoted the statement was. Morrell and the Pentagon, and by extension the President, have said nothing about Morrell’s statement to date. The silence is deafening.
For me, the prospect of DADT repeal and even thinking about segregating lesbian and gay service members is so absurd, never mind bigoted that Morrell and anyone in the Pentagon considering it should be fired for stupidity.
What about bisexuals? How exactly will that be handled, Generals? Do they get to pick which tent in the war zone to bunk in?
Morrell and Co. have it all wrong – those who don’t want to be in contact with the homos need to be segregated out. That’s less costly, and we’ll know what tent to go to when there are gay-bashings. The fact is that the survey will show that many serving already know someone gay in their ranks, which means they’ve already been showering, bunking and otherwise living around TEH GAY and life goes on. What is the point of coddling the bigots? Religious objection to serving with someone who is gay or lesbian is ludicrous – no one is asking them to have sexual relations with them. It’s to do a job serving our country.




108 Comments


This makes NO senseIf lesbian/gay soldiers are going to be segregated into separate barracks and showers, then why come out at all?
If this proposal did fly, gay/lesbian soldiers would still be better off lying about their orientation than to submit to this.
How is this part of a DADT repeal any better than the DADT we have today?
“Privacy” issues? “Bathrooms??”Where have I heard all of this before??
Pink Beret Commandos?What about in combat, what about at “The Alamo” or “The Last Stand” in Afghanistan?
Do we put the LGBT’s ten paces away somewhere?
Of course the Fierce Avoidant is against segregation, unless a poll tells him otherwise.
Of course the Fierce Ambivalent is against marriage discrimination, unless it is about us…..
NO MORE MONEY FOR THE DNC!
Equality Candidates Only!
I am not a bloody second class citizen!
I was a boat capitan who saw combat, served in a mixed crew, and we all survived.
Freakin stiffen uup and do something, Mr President, or you will have a shorter run and a worse legacy than Bush
To quote Dustin Hoffman:
“Do you hate the white man now, Grandfather?”
if segregation is deemed necessarythe way to do it would be to house all the gays and lesbians along with the non-bigoted straight soldiers. Then have the separate facilities for the homophobes. Separate the homophobes from everyone else.
Sounds like a plan to me!!!!
FailIgnoring for a second how offensive this is to GLBT soldiers (hard I know), it doesn’t make any sense even from a homophobic point of view.
Why segregate gay troops from straight troops? To decrease sexual encounters between soldiers? So let me get this straight general, you wanna put all them lustful sodomites into the same barracks, right? And you think this will somehow prevent soldiers from having sex with each other? Wouldn’t it make more sense to split them up among straight soldiers, thus diluting their pool of potential partners?
I mean if the army was trying to prevent soldiers from playing chess, would it make sense to lock up all the chess players into one barracks? Wouldn’t it be wiser to evenly distribute the chess players between barracks thus decreasing the amount of chess games that can go on at any given time?
The stupid… It burns.
They just don’t get it. Although I can’t wait for thevisual of President Obama signing a “separate but equal” decree…yeah, that’s the ticket.
Yep. Reminds me of one of the early AIDS protestsin The City. Shut down Market street, and the cops were arresting everybody. Not so much arresting, as a quick Polaroid picture, warrant check, etc. but they made sure they had separate buses for the boys and girls, lest something “inappropriate” occur. Only reason I remember that particular day was the great shot on the local TV that night; the boys bus rolling away with the sound of show tunes coming out the windows…
This is the excuse to do nothing about DADTwe got our bill, the Bigots got their right to persecute and to continue to discharge
Segregation is not feasable, so DADT will continue,,,,and continue…..and continue
On another thread, an author upbraided another poster about being dismissive of the administraion’s accomplishments.
Well, i have just been sucker punched by the administration that some people want us to keep giving money to
A watered down Hate Crimes Bill, A ghastly trick on DADA, No ENDA and a Rental Truck Equality Memorandum
The “Fierce Ambivalent” has strick again.
Just the excuse Obama was looking for:“I think DADT is morally wrong, but my straight soldiers have me pussy-whipped and I don’t want to hurt their feelings by giving them orders they don’t like, so uh, sorry gays. Stay closeted. I know my place, you should know yours.”
about as impractical a suggestion as they comeSo. Are the LGBT servicemembers going to be consolidated in separate units. What kind of units? (Remember that LGBT members turn up in all service branches, and all MOSs within those branches.) Are you going to segregate them into particular types of units? We’ve been down that route before: Filipinos as mess stewards, African-Americans as stevedores and (badly-equipped and led) infantry. Are you going to set up a special unit with a special shoulder patch or branch insignia, so that any on-the-town encounters with other units become memorable?
And how careless are you going to be with their lives when they go into battle? (See, e.g., the experience of the 54th Massachusetts at the siege of Charleston, chronicled in the very good film “Glory.” What they don’t tell you is they sent an entire division of African-American troops into the Crater the next year, at the siege of Petersburg, with even more horrific results: the fiddling with the order of attack, on a racial basis, may have caused the attack to fail, where it might have ended the war).
And this Administration is still obsessed with bathroom issues. Shower bays. Group showers. Latrines. Frevvins sake, anybody who has been in, or commanded, basic training knows that once the hair is sheared off and the uniforms issued, no one has any privacy, any separate identity, any modesty.
Just put up some curtains in the bay showers and be done with itLet the homophobes have their privacy while the rest of the soldiers move on with their lives.
Honestly, I’d rather pay for shower curtains than the Cold War era weaponry our military doesn’t even use anymore yet somehow keeps getting paid for by Congress.
Why don’t they segregate the evangelical bullies permeating the armed forces. . .who are not defending the Constitution and Americans, but “serving their God.”
See this interesting piece:
http://www.truth-out.org/no-do…
Seems to me the Pentagon manages to ignore obvious unit cohesion problems when these “Christian” supremacists get into the service.
Best get some “Whites Only” drinking fountains tooif you are going to rely on push polls from bigots
Gee, where have we heard this before?From Obama’s nominee for Army Secretary, during his confirmation hearings in October of last year.
The usual suspects told me I was being hysterical, that it could never happen, that I was reading too much into it.
Well, kittens, we’ve had Pentagon chiefs telling us for nine months that their plans, if repeal happens at all, are for a segregated service. No one here gets to act surprised.
The Obama Administration is perfectly fine with segregated marriage, so why not segregated military service?
Hey Joe, want to take another stab at convincing me to pay money for this?
TypicalAs far as I’m concerned, there had better be full repeal and integration of gay troops or it counts for absolutely nothing. Leave it to the Democrats to “triangulate” their way to an idiotic solution that will piss off everyone on both sides of the issue.
Eloquent!Love it , Keori
Sam Nunn?I want to know if the nit wits at the Pentagon have dug up Sam Nunn and are getting his counsel on how to fight the repeal of DADT? Seriously this shit is just crazy. Can someone please tell me why no one bothers to ask the LGB’s how they feel about open showers and toilets?
When I was in gym and we had open showers the goal was always to get in and out as fast as possible and to avoid looking at anyone. Like the homos are so pathetic that we are incapable of showering without ogling the strait people. Ugh and these people are allowed to procreate?
This is from The Onion, right? Right?Please tell me this was from The Onion, or some other similar publication. Please.
I can’t say I’m especially worried about this actually transpiring. The pragmatic implementation seems too onerous. And the politics seem like a net loss too. They’ll have a hard time putting lipstick on a pig like that.
Which is not to say they may not be considering it. But I’m guessing cooler heads will prevale. And even if they don’t the result will be disasterous PR.
They will defer ending DADTon the grounds that it is too costly and problematic in wartime to segregate troops. This is their out. This is why the wait for the study, this is why the “push Poll”
Agreed, ClarkBut I have to say that I’m stunned by the sheer idiocy of Morrell’s comments. How can this guy be so unprepared for a presser? Is he, like, the understudy spokesperson or something?
The more I see the Obama administration in action on LGBT rights, the more tonedeaf they seem. I’m having a hard time believing that they’re not fucking this up on purpose.
We lostperiod.
We were tricked, deceived, deluded
How IS that hopey-changey thing going for us?
But be sure to give money to the DNC and to vote straight Democratic
Because the Republicans will want things like conscience clauses in the hate crimes bill excusing inflammatory speech if you mention Jesus(oh wait, the dems did that already)
Or Conscience clauses in healthcare bills so that rural women cannot get contraception if they are single(wait, Stupak and Dahlkemper did that already)
Or timeless delays on DADT(ongoing, thanks Mr President)
Or homophobic briefs denying us the right to marriage(oh, gosh, that was the Dems too)
Or No Enda(ummm–forgot, the dems did that to us)
Or a horrific mockery of healthcare reform(wait, oh yes, the President cited that as a great victory)
My reaction as well…Segregate the bigots. Make the bigots raise their hands and ask for separate accommodations. At least that way the adults will know who they need to keep an eye on. It’s becoming increasingly clear who the real pansies in the military are.
Looks like he tipped the DOD’s hand with that statement. Segregation is required but unworkable so no-can-do.
And this is just laughable,,,,“We think it would be irresponsible to conduct a survey that did not address these questions,”
But it’s totally responsible to omit any questions on the negative effects of the current policy or provide for input from those already kicked out under DADT nor a safe way for those currently enlisted to safely respond to the survey. You would think people for whom duplicity is SOP would be better versed in keeping their duplicity hidden.
Every time they open their mouthsthey dig themselves deeper & deeper into a foxhole called “DUMB”.
Then there’s Gov. Lingle in the news again – comparing SS civil unions to allowing incest.
Have these people all been infected by a new virus that not only turns their brains to mush but also causes their mouths to go into overdrive? They all make Archie Bunker look like a paragon of intelligence, open-mindedness, & tolerance!
I can’t help but wonder whythese titmice have so little faith in the proffesionalism of their own troops.
huh?Segregation is too feasible- look at WWII! It worked then, why not now?
/snark off
I am just getting tired of non-citizen tratment
this whole issue amazes meWhy does the military have no faith in the professionalism of its own members?
The majority of our allies have already implemented open service, none of them took longer than 4 months to implement and none of them have found it necessary to segregate their troops.
Why does our military think they are not as good as Canada, Australia, Great Britain, Israel etc. etc. etc…
But, if our leaders feel they must protect the homophobes in the military, then the obvious answer is to segregate the homophobes from the rest of the gay and straight true professionals in the services. They should institute a “Do Ask, Must Tell” policy which would force homophobes who are unwilling to share facilities with gays to identify themselves and be assigned into segregated quarters.
Why…don’t we just have our gay/lesbian soldiers wear lavendar armbands or, better yet, have them tatooed so they can be easily identified in the showers. Heaven forbid some poor christian youth have to lay eyes upon a homosexual, or, OMG, have some homosexual lay eyes upon him/her!
Stupid and wrong, but….Several things came to mind as I read the article and the comments.
Right now, the “official” stance is that gay people can serve, and serve with distinction, as long as nobody ever has a clue they are gay. Right now, “officially” the old “gay people are unfit for military service” is no longer the rule, even if it is still the practice.
But if they do go this far, even if they say, “we could do this if we segregate, but segregating is too hard, so we have to maintain DADT” they will be going to a place that is even more obvious than they are now – they will officially and clearly be discharging fully qualified people that even they clearly say should be able to serve, but because the cost of accommodating homophobes is too high.
Another possibility, one that is actually fairly likely given the political aspects of this, is the “compromise” that has been used in the past, which will be even more untenable than previously.
When I was in the Navy, a lot of changes were being made to include women more in more areas. But for all sorts of (largely bullshit) reasons, strict limits were put on what assignments women could have. They were largely the easier, more makework or support positions. On the one hand, it guaranteed that women were less likely to get promoted, having had less useful experience. But the larger and more toxic effect was that the jobs assignments they gave to the women were the assignments that historically had been the kind of positions that men coming off at-sea deployments or other unattractive jobs got, often to allow them to pursue training or education at the same time. The effect was both to make women umpromotable, but also to drastically extend deployments and time in high-stress jobs for the men (jobs women were fighting to get into.)
If they do segregate LGBT people, it will be into this kind of position, and will just further increase the time in the dangerous and high-stress jobs for straights. And parents are going to hear “Sorry, but your son or daughter has to serve yet another extended tour in Afghanistan because we can’t figure out how to hang shower curtains.”
It was one thing when the people being “protected” were “poor delicate women,” but they’re going to have to justify keeping Dan Choi and all the other clearly qualified, clearly dedicated men and women out of combat and deployment.
Further making this untenable is the fact that repealing DADT won’t automatically out everyone. There will still be people in the closet, so again, unlike the women in the past who never got the chance to prove they could do the dangerous and unpleasant jobs, there will be a continuing supply of people who have proven they are perfectly capable, done the jobs, gotten the experience, and then been pulled out of the position into a segregated one because the policy is that the other troops couldn’t deal with them.
I don’t see it as likely that we will see all-gay special forces teams being sent into the really dangerous jobs just to kill them off, or similar scenarios – because the whole point (whatever else is said) of this is the underlying idea that gay men are limp-wristed sissies, and lesbians are unprofessional predators – one thing we WON’T see is a segregation system that lets LGBT prove they are competent soldiers and sailors, because that would destroy the stereotypes even faster, and they know it.
Actually no.If you ask that question to someone who has military experience and is adamantly opposed to open service for LGBT people, the answer you almost always get is that those countries don’t have “real” militaries. That they are more ceremonial, more lax, and more unprofessional than US troops.
Since their professional standards are already low, adding queers didn’t lower them a lot more.
At that point, no amount of pointing out the actual professionalism, military success, or, you know, reality, makes a bit of difference. If pushed with actual facts and statistics, their final fallback is to claim that the success and professionalism of our allies is the exception rather than the rule, while and unprofessionalism or failure of US troops is also the exception (usually caused by liberals or non-christians).
By the way wait for it….I guarantee you one of the next big pushes against the repeal of DADT will be the fact that it will violate the religious freedoms of the Christian servicemembers to have to serve with openly gay people.
We’ve already started to hear the first salvoes in this ploy – the claims that openly gay servicemembers will gag military chaplains (whose primary job is apparently to give anti-gay speeches).
It’s only a matter of time before the focus shifts to the poor oppressed christian soldiers.
i really don’t like the idea ofhanging shower curtains to solve this problem. First, because it doesn’t address the sleeping/living quarters issue that is pushed right along with the showering issue. But, mostly because it seems silly to me when what the answer should be is to tell people to grow up and STFU and do your job.
If homophobes can’t stand the thought of “mingling” with gays and lesbians, then let THEM say so and put THEM into segregated facilities. It’s their problem, so deal with THEM.
Basically, it comes down to thisIt’s pretty much impossible to make any headway with people who are doing the equivalent of covering their ears while singing “la la la la la” at the top of their voices. We can’t convince them of anything, no matter how many facts or how good our logic is, because they absolutely refuse to listen.
It’s important to keep up with the facts & rational arguments, because there are those out there who are truly only ignorant, not stupid, & thus capable of thinking when presented with those facts & logic.
But it surely looks like the courts plus continued activism are the only ways we will make progress.
Very sad, but history shows us that’s pretty much the only path to equality in this country.
Thge UK’s SAS?The Armada Espanola’s Special Boat Service that did some of the most dramatic boarding of gun running vessels?
I am sure that those elite teams would open a can of whoop -*ss on any who said such things
Medical Corps is already pretty much segregatedCertainly seems to be the area of military service where most of my gay and lesbian friends who are veterans served. Assuming that is true, it leads to a natural response to the proposal of segregation:
“If you can’t handle me being in the same shower as you, you sure as hell can’t handle me saving your life,” I mean, imagine how intimate the contact is between medical professionals and their patients? I guess part of triage now will be lining up the homophobic soldiers in the “straights-only” line – of course, they’ll be more likely to die, but that’s their choice.
Alternative counter-slogan “Sheila Hein died for segregation?!” (Ms. Hein being the lesbian accountant killed in the Pentagon on 9/11).
this is what happens when you segregateSee, e.g., the Port Chicago explosion and subsequent mutiny.
1. Put them in separate units. Of course, they well be stereotyped so that their work will be undesirable and dangerous.
2. Put inadequate officers over them, who are not of their sort and will be careless with them.
3. Wait for the inevitable disaster and then court-martial them if they balk.
We’ve been there before. BTW, the Port Chicago explosion was the greatest single loss of African-American personnel in that war, and it was not in an active theater.
http://www.history.navy.mil/fa…
Military segregation isn’t just perverse, you see. It can, it will be dangerous to the people involved, and, ultimately, the war effort is worse off.
The parallel is the “Jim Crow Draft” and “Jim Crow Army”….
Then, as now, the biggest brass asshat came from the Marines. Today, we have Marine Commandant James Conway wetting his camo panties over the idea that his He-Men might have to share a room with a Fagroe. In the 40s, it was Marine Commandant Thomas Holcomb who said that adding more blacks was a bad idea because segregated units were impractical. He’s the one infamous for saying:
He and the other bigots lost, because Roosevelt did insist on increasing the numbers of blacks in the military, though he allowed segregation within the ranks, housing, etc., to continue.
This is just the latest in a series of examples of how the Party Line the Obama Nostra sent out even before he was sworn in that he had to move slow on DADT because he didn’t want to make the same mistakes Clinton did was balderdash. Gay segregation was floated in 1993, too. But Congress did their end run on him banning out service period entirely.
Rather than the pink berets someone suggests below; I vote for the classic pink triangle. After all, fascism always trumps fashion.
Messy segregration.Another pentagon plea to keep service members in a closet.
The elephant in the room is that GLBT people serve, period. . and are forced into a policy closet. I doubt that there would be anything other than a minor blip with “coming outin the military” . .the repeal of DADT won’t
DADTis repeal with some mysterious segregation policy just enforces an even bigger closet.
“Butch it up”, or ,”some eyeliner & tanning” . . cause if your comrades suspect any diversity, You’ll be sent to the new 366th infantry regiment.
Forced segregation will only force more servicemembers into the closet, and that’s exactly what they want.
Port Chicago was not the only mutinyby black troops being used exclusively for unsafe jobs being done without regards to safety, but because of the explosion, which i believe is second only to Halifax, had the biggest noteriety.
Currently, Pink Berets would probably be used for route clearance without minesweepers
holy crapI’ll apologize for the crappy post with broken lines and bad grammar, but you know what I meant.
if they were so f*cking concerned about “feelings”……where were the questions asking “how would you feel about having to live in separate quarters? showering separately? would it offend you to have to eat in a separate mess hall?”
this makes me FURIOUS.
yes and that’s the repetitive pity of itSome Memorial Day commemorations celebrate, e.g., the valor of the segregated 442nd Regiment (Japanese-Americans). They don’t tell you just how many segregated units paid dearly for their exposed status. The 442d was decimated extracting a Texas unit pocketed by the Germans. The stevedores at Port Chicago, handling much of the Pacific Theater’s ammunition. The 92nd Division in Italy, African-Americans carrying Springfield rifles long after most GIs had M1s, and led by white officers (the War Department seemed to think that white Southern officers had more “experience”), and derided every time they took losses from stronger German opposition.
Same for the Civil War, the 54th Massachusetts at Charleston. The black Union troops left isolated at Ft. Pillow and massacred when overrun. Ferrero’s division at the Crater, sent in late by a drunken commander staying behind in his dugout, the division caught in the crater and massacred. Example after example.
Such are the results. Frankly, we’re better off if Obama just drops the whole thing. He, of all people, should have known better.
i’m i the only one stricken by the blinding irony…that this wasn’t a question on the “survey”.
if you thought someone in your barracks was gay would you:
*Take no action
*Discuss how we expect each other to behave and conduct ourselves while sharing a room, berth or field tent
*Talk to a chaplain, mentor, or leader about how to handle the situation
*Talk to a leader to see if I have other options
*Something else
*Don’t know
**ask to be bunked with other narrow-minded, bigoted troglodytes
*If you selected ‘Something else’, please specify below:
(as you all know, the single “*” responses above are the actual options from the survey’s “what would you do! gasp! clutch pearls” questions)
Having lived in open bay situations:1) One person, one bed. Not that bad, really. you get your very own bunk.
2) Wear a towel or underwear if you’re parading around the open bay. You need to do that now in almost every situation because you don’t know when a woman will come on deck.
i liked the one i saw that was modified for a survey on JewsIt went something like this:
if you thought someone in your barracks was Jewish would you:
*Take no action
*hide your wallet
*ask him to stop whining all the time
*wear a crucifix
*Talk to a chaplain, mentor, or leader about how to handle the situation
*Talk to a leader to see if I have other options
*Something else
*Don’t know
*If you selected ‘Something else’, please specify below:
“We’d be better off”…..
…if Obama asked for his balls back from Gates.
DAY approximately 530 of his administration; gays are still being discharged as I write this; with no guaranteed end in sight.
Apparently, he thinks this is an example of his core constituency. It certainly is an example of the kind of person the Pentagon poll was fine-tuned for:
no sh*T!!!“really, i’m not trying to come on to you, i’m just sticking my hand into your gaping, bleeding chest to keep your heart from falling out and to keep you from bleeding to death. hope you don’t feel TOO VIOLATED…or OFFENDED.”
they’re too busy playing 13-dimension chess. n/t
Believe, John!
They ARE “fucking this up on purpose.”
No matter how many times he says the opposite, Gates does NOT want the ban to end…and Obama is letting him run the show.
Delay even pretending to want repeal for over a year…until months before midterms…attempt to run out the legislative clock on repeal…justify it by creating a poll designed to legitimize the ban…or segregation if it somehow happens anyway….kill the Military Readiness Enhancement Act that would have banned discharges and other forms of discrimination…..etc., etc.
And they are only succeeding because Gay, Inc., and Gayland refuse to believe that such bad actions make them bad people.
now we know…this has been one big set-up. we can all see where these pieces lay, so our best option is to expose them to the GP. while its great that we have a place to discus this inside the community, what needs to be done is informing the public that segregation is NOT NOW OR EVER an option. so when the survey designed to propose segregation is the “best option” is done they dont have the leg to stand on. they wonna set us up, lets make sure they fall on their asses. atleast let us make sure ENDA wasnt sacraficed for nothing. we’re not playing their games anymore. its time for us to step up like never before, bring our own brand, we need to make our points unignorable to mainstream media. if the teabaggers can start hijacking the repugs platforms like the consev christians did, we need 2 start taking notes from THEIR playbooks not just civil rights movements from the past. we’re through asking & playing nicely. its time 2 get bloody!
There are timeswhen I suspect this entire administration is from the Onion. We’ll wake up someday soon and find out it was all a joke and that we really do have a president who represents hope and change. In the meantime, I’ll follow Joe M’s advice and send a big contribution to this administration, because they’re SSSOOOO much better than republicans.
tonedeaf?Try COMPLETELY deaf.
Why does the military have no faith in the professionalism of its own members? Because they have a “higher faith.” Our military’s top ranks are top-heavy with fundamentalist Christians–you know, the kind of superstitious idiots who think spending our money to inscribe Bible verses on bullets will accomplish something meaningful. Ordinary rank-and-file service members might not have that same pure, simple faith; they must be prevented from acting according to reason and decency instead of Leviticus. And the fact that the C-in-C is of more or less the same mindset–viz. McClurkin, Warren, “God’ in the mix,” etc.–makes it even worse.
Oh, Lady.Everyone’s entitled to a certain amount of stupid, but the IQ points are starting to come out of our nation’s collective karma, now.
All the stuff that was suggested in the 80sfor “dealing with” PWAs will be suggested again for gay military personnel before this is over. Tattoo them, brand them, quarantine them, make them wear pink, put them on an island, etc., etc., etc. I couldn’t be more sure that that’s all coming. And some of the money Joe M. wants us to send to Obama will be used to fund it, if we let that happen.
Well,Why not have segregated units, if that’s what the Fundies who clearly have more control of the military want.
Is the unit motto ‘Go for broke’ still taken?
And we are just angry children and the dems know bestand dont forget to give to the HRC fund drive for wardrobes
4.5 million dollarswould buy a lot of shower curtains.
I’ve been speaking to many vets and active duty service members and talking about showers. Interestingly most say they only experienced bay showers in basic training. Even in theater they didn’t have to use bay showers. One service member I spoke to this weekend had used a bay shower only twice in 20+ years. So really how big of a deal is this?
Actually,The closet is really what they want: if there was anything but crotch-grabbing and crucifixes left in the Pentagon, they wouldn’t be trying to claim any of this is good for military effectiveness.
They proved that wasn’t the point when they invaded Iraq and then screwed it up.
FURIOUS isn’t strong enough for me…I really can’t put it into words, I don’t think there are even words for the level of FURY I am now at. If we’re going to be segregated in the military, you can expect this to spread to civilian life too. The way I see it, we are about to lose everything we ever worked for as GLBT people, and at the hands of a viciously homophobic President.
YeahIf we’re supposed to be protecting the fragile insecurities of Marines, the Taliban’s got it all wrong. All they have to do is throw dildoes!
Non-segregated forcehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v…
UK
This is the elephant in the roomThis is the issue we are not addressing and is the real reason behind the opposition of DADT. Kevin these “Christian” supremacists are not just “getting into” the service, they are at high levels and systematically creating a Christian Military.
“Inside the U.S. military a small, determined, and fanatical clique wants to abuse its power and prosetlyze to service members below them in the chain of command. Through this captive market, they can inject their peculiar ideology into the most powerful institution on earth. As Weinstein likes to say, this isn’t just a civil rights issue, it’s a national security threat of the gravest magnitude. The description sounds hyberbolic, but according to Weinstein there’s a pervasive Christian supremacist milieu inside the U.S. military that’s a danger not only to constitutional order, but to the American wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.”
That’s the real ‘slippery slope.’By trying to politicize the military and make it about a religious ideology, they’ve also totally made actual discipline and professionalism totally-negotiable.
Most people in the nation are in favor of DADT repeal and serving openly, now. As for the rest, you’re in the Army, now, Bible-boys.
That’s a really important pointOther nations have demonstrated for a long time that all the rationales for DADT or discrimination were bunk in the first place.
Gay and Lesbian service members have no voice…..“Can someone please tell me why no one bothers to ask the LGB’s how they feel about open showers and toilets?” Bottom line, this has nothing to do with toilets or showers and absent from views to the contrary the void can be filled with hysterical stereotypes. This is just a clever technique to keep our comunity oppressed and without any legal protections.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Bingo!
Start a revolution!!!
Shades of Sam Nunn and the Past May Indeed be PrologueThree things: 1) LGB servicemembers are already integrated…so we are going reverse to segregation? This is the change we have been waiting for? I don’t think so; 2) When women were being integrated into Regular Army units we moved from being segregated in the “WAC shack” where all women on the base lived in one building, surrounded by a fence that many men climbed over and attempted to break in to our barracks, which they did at times. Eventually we set up a direct phone line to the MP station after increasing numbers of attempted sexual assaults–which dramatically changed, although some problems continued to exist after women were integrated into the barracks and 3) The real issue here is about men, feeling vulnerable to the possibility they could be a “victim” of sexual assault–that is what is driving this crazy idea. Because men know how they approach women and what happens to women as a consequence. This is shameful and reflects how much fear and ignorance exists within the straight male military community.
Please – all you have to do is look at them in the shower
dont trust the hand that smacks yousome might be happy with that, but the truth is that the objective is for our LGB family to sever as any other member of the armed services with honor and dignity. segregation is an act of shaming, sry but im not gonna sugar coat it. The attitude behind segregation is “we cant keep them out anymore, but we’re not gonna let them in”. it sets up institutional inferiority, by saying that “these ppl” arnt fit to live, serve, and die with the rest of us. If it was up to the fundies they would round up every one of us and put one in the back of our heads. If you want 2 take what, someone who wants you dead, gives you that’s your priority. Im not one to run around and tell ppl what 2 do with their lives, but if we disagree I want you to understand where I come from.
because segregation menas more than just living in separate facilities. It means being assigned to lesser jobs thereby having fewer opportunities for advancement up the ranks. It means being treated the way women used to be treated in the military.
If segregation is necessary, it should be the homophobes who are segregated away from the rest of the troops. Let the gay and straight troops who are adult professionals serving honorably serve together. Quarantine the homophobes, who are the real danger, so they can be watched carefully.
TWENTY-FIVE nations to date…
And even in Great Britain and Australia where “marriage equality” isn’t legal [Australia doesn't even have the "lesser" variation that GB has], gay couples are allowed to live in military housing.
i have a basic hygiene in the military question……that nobody seems able to answer.
do they only give our service members a total of 10 minutes once a week to shower all at the same time? you would think that there is a stampede of thousands of men and women barging into the showers all at once to get clean listening to this “OMG TEH SHOWERS” hissy fit.
(sorry for the stereotypical names) but if bubba saw bruce going into the showers and was just SURE that bruce was gonna make an attempt at a sideways glance at his… ummm …equipment, couldn’t he just wait until he saw bruce come back out of the showers to go clean up?
not that it should make a difference, but it does lead one to believe that personal hygiene time is kept to a minimum for our armed forces personnel.
as for bunks, since when were our armed services members being forced to sleep 2 to a double bed? in mixed company, isn’t the decent thing to just stay in bed until morning wood resolves itself? (i guess i’m just showing my prudishness…how un-gay of me.)
DADT reduxThis is the alternative to an executive order. We remember in this way just what gave the term SNAFU to our language.
different etymologyThis is no longer a SNAFU. It’s FUBAR.
I don’t know either of you anymore (Looks around frantically for the pods)
I hope you realizeThat’s not what I’d actually support, I was just referring to history and saying that if it came to that, we could prove them wrong the hard way.
It shouldn’t have to, no.
And, yes, I know what these ‘segregation’ moves mean,it’s a maneuver. The idea is that it’ll be found unacceptable, so DADT and all those injustices will stand, and they can blame someone else when it gets turned down.
I guess the point is, if we called their bluff, ’we’ could and would serve with honor. (I say ‘we’ knowing it’s a little late in my life to say ‘Sign me up,’ but, we as a kind of people.)
No, we shouldn’t have to, cause we know where that always goes.
But make no mistake, we could. Unlike a lot of homophobes, in our community, many of us know what it’s like to be afraid and fight anyway, we know what it’s like to find that not everyone defers to our imperial privilege, and we know both when to show restraint in a fight and when not to.
They act like the captain of the football team is a better soldier than any ‘queer,’ …or the only fit representative of ‘fighting for freedom.’ Frankly, I think the opposite’s true.
So, call their bluff, that’s my rhetorical point.
It’s not as though the ‘phobes are telling the truth or anything.
*wink* Wait till we return fire. :)
Paging Dr. Freud!This has so many subliminal implications that you could never count them. Even if you’re Jung at heart.
HonestlyI worry that that’s actually why they don’t want any open gas in the military.
Not our revolution, someone else’s.
Speaking of shower curtains…Has no one else seen this video? I’m not sure where/when it was made and it in no way implies that this is always the case in all situations – BUT it certainly seems that in at least one instance some have managed to find and hang shower curtains in or near combat zones. (And it’s a funny reminder that the there’s been camp/drag in the military forever. )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…
And don’t forget the Kabul embassy hazing incident where “straight” guys working for a security contractor who were caught doing shots off the naked butts of their comrades.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/S5z44_d2…
“Jung at heart”???
Too precious for words! And we LUV your treasure chest of great quotes!
Muchos muchos!
Pentagon breaks radio-silence on segregation!That took long enough, looks like it’s a good thing we raised a rukus and got them to say, on the record, that it will not happen.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-50…
Obama = Colin PowellI remember being shocked and disappointed that Powell was so narrow-minded that he categorically rejected any comparison between integrating the military now and back in Truman’s day. It does seem more and more that Obama has not learned much from history or even from his own history, despite his memoir. He will allow this talk to go on without stopping it because “God is in the mix” or some other repulsive statement.
But what will happen?The poll was so bad that they raised the “s” word.
“F” Troop?I can just see them putting the “F” troop behind enemy lines with no supplies, no air cover, and a “mission impossible” themesong.
Homphobes?They shall have a special place for those. It’s called the unemployment line, or perhaps Leavenworth, especially for marines that bash gay civilians for “winking” at them.
we’re in it!what we are facing is the orginization of our opponents, due to, in part, to the success we’ve had. the ppl we face are afraid, they act out of and try to perpetuate the fear inherant in all of us. they fear becuase they dont understand. a wise person once told me hate is love in the absence of understanding. these ppl dont WANT to understand. we’re a big elephant in the room to them, and in their minds its easier for them to get rid of elephant then just talk about it. to achieve this they’ve turn themselves into boogy-men. part of being grown-up is facing your fears. bullies dont stop being so just because they’re asked, they stop when someone puts them in their place. last year we saw something unpresidented, the community united in squashing half-measured legislature. when T’s were dropped from enda, i was soooo proud of my LGB bothers & sisters standing up for us! i know it caused quite a ruckus, but now is the time to do the same thing, make it known that we will not let this go, we wont accept any old BS thrown our way. im no revolutionary or a leader, i dont see any legislature that will actually help me personally. all i am is a loud, foul-mouthed bad a** momma, whos fed-up plain and simple
umm, I thoughtthe Bible says thou shall not kill? isn’t that the point of the army? I mean, I could be wrong here, but, really!They can’t have it both ways, can they? If they play the religion card, kick them out before they all become conscientious objectors and waste the taxpayer’s money…
Powel so bravely changed his opinion now that it counts for nothing. nt
I wish I knew…But it was the Pentagon and the Marine Commander, him first, who suggested segregation outright, and then the Pentagon using code words as a trial balloon. Their little trial balloon went over like a lead dirigible. They came, they saw, they failed.
Al Qaedaonly needs to send two of its brave warriors out to KISS in front of our intrepid forces. They’d shrivel up and die like Boris Karloff at the end of The Mummy.
The Bible verses inscribed on bullets make it okay.
Because, as TimNC mentionswe won’t be advancing. Civilians forget that in the service, the generals tell you to jump and you have to figure out how high. They are not just bosses who you can tell no, they are your leader who can break you and jail you for insubordination…
They will be giving you the scut jobs and will be the ones grading your performance. The issue is that the game is rigged, plain and simple.
The Marine Commandant didn’t suggest, he insistedthat he would segregate in the Corps
the Army Secretary McHugh also suggested segreagationlast October when he said this, which not only suggested segregated facilities but also the possibility of locking gays out of some jobs or units all together:
Selling the idea to Congress, which has the final say, could depend on exactly what the administration tries to do in terms of the timing of repeal and how it is applied, McHugh said.
It’s possible, for example, that homosexuals could be allowed into some occupations or units but barred from others, McHugh said, stressing that he was not aware of any such plans but only discussing how the issue might play out.
“I don’t want to prejudge the situation,” he said. “I am saying if he did that, it would be my job to explain it when the appropriate time comes.”
Great idea!Actually, that’d account for both sides and we could all get on with life. :)
that’s not true!They were inscribed on rifle scopes. Includes those issued to Iraqi troops, our presumably Muslim allies. Also, according to the story, on military briefing documents during the early phases of Operation Iraqi Fiefdom.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpoi…
Well, the point there is…That it’s all a bluff. It’s not going to happen that way, so why act scared of it so it’s a bargaining chip against us?
that’s OK, we can run deficits here, tooSee later thread regarding the White House’s position on military shower curtains. Yes, it is ludicrous.
well, here is what the Sec of the Army had to say last OctoberSelling the idea to Congress, which has the final say, could depend on exactly what the administration tries to do in terms of the timing of repeal and how it is applied, McHugh said.
It’s possible, for example, that homosexuals could be allowed into some occupations or units but barred from others, McHugh said, stressing that he was not aware of any such plans but only discussing how the issue might play out.
“I don’t want to prejudge the situation,” he said. “I am saying if he did that, it would be my job to explain it when the appropriate time comes.”
————————————————–
So, it isn’t out of the realm of possibilities according to him. He’s talking about outright barring gays from entire units and occunpations.
Glad to see Pam’s column at HuffPoIt’s getting really BIZARRO over at HuffPo.
Kenneth Blackwell has a column, the guy who shorted Black neighborhoods voting machines (he made sure had no paper trail) so people waited 8 hours to vote, and gave us 4 more years of Cheney.
AND a “comedy” column launching Laura Ingraham’s new book with hillarious lines about Michelle Obama, chocolate, Ray Nagin and the NAACP…my white sides they were a splittin’.
They are censoring the comments to Ingraham like a Cheney going to the hospital thread.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…
I expect a Glenn Beck column next.
regarding these peopleif you find grounds to call a human being an ignorant and unintelligible adjective such as “queer”, then why would you have a peaking interest in aything regarding these people.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Dermit…
Like I’ve said:I don’t want to alarm anyone, but where did ‘The Will Of The people’ go?
Well,‘Queer’ is a name, not a list of ‘sins’ and ‘diagnoses.’
Maybe a name is exactly what we need.
One that can’t be redefined in the shadows to mean ‘Enemy.’