A couple of things (okay, three)1) Trans women are born women.  Autumn, were you not born a woman?  It took some time and some doing to align your body with your true gender, but haven’t you always been a woman?
2) How do they know?  I’ve met a lot of trans women in my life, and – to be uncharacteristally blunt for a moment – some of them can “pass” as cisgender women easier than others.  Hell, I’ve met some men in my life who can pass as women without a single hormone injection.  How do they know that every woman who attends their event meets their definition of “womyn-born-womyn”? (I feel silly even typing that.)
3) To say that “womyn-born-womyn” (yup, still feels dumb to type) require a “safe space” from men nowadays makes some sort of sense, as male privilege is still very much a societal reality.  But when your argument for a “safe space” excludes those who are more oppressed than you, there’s a whole different dynamic.  People of color sometimes require a safe space of their own; for white people to claim the same thing would sound racist, and with good reason.  Gay people sometimes require a safe space of their own; for straight people to claim the same thing would sound homophobic, and with good reason.  Trans people sometimes require a safe space of their own; for cis people to claim the same thing sounds transphobic, and with good reason.

Their message board shows their liesIf you look at their message board it’s quite revealing as to how legitimate their excuses are. It’s one of the principal spaces for organizing and theorizing against transpeople with absolutely no holding back on the most brutal and vicious types of anti-trans hate speech. The organization is absolutely and completely devoted to opposition to trans inclusion, trans rights, and even trans existence.
On the other hand, it’s a dinosaur with the same future as a brontosaurus.

Easy there, cowboyLet’s watch the oppression-ranking.
I understand that if you agree with the side of this argument that says ‘safe spaces are for oppressed groups/victims and trans people are the victims therefore the safe space argument doesn’t apply’, it’s almost a requirement to play a round of Oppression Olympics.
So take a spin of the wheel:
It’s true that the most aggressive, violent and dangerous oppression that I experience is due to prejudice against gender-dissent. That is, my experience has been that misogyny and sexism are permeated through every part of  this culture but that the role ‘woman’ doesn’t endanger my immediate health.
The role ‘non-gender-conforming’ has, and will again. That’s a part of life that I share with my trans brother and sisters who are unable or unwilling to pass.
However, my identity is not ‘trans’. That violence and hate, the actual teeth-cracking bashing not some words that hurt, are not directed toward me because I’m perceived to be trans–but because I’m correctly perceived as a human who rejects that way of thinking.
The oppression you’ve correctly identified is not contingent on my female or woman or cis or whatever aspects, it’s a response to my refusal to perform the role ‘woman’ in the fashion dictated by the patriarchy.
So back to your suggestion that one of these oppressions is worse than the other. Which way does that go again?

My calendar says this argument has about 5 years untilit expires of natural causes.
And if some dyke my mom’s age, who has been living with the consequences of dissenting from the patriarchy since 1968, wants to spend one week a year with others who share that exact experience–who am I to say she’s oppressing someone who was raised with male privilege? She has paid a price for being true to her conception of herself that I’ll never understand, and sees gender very differently than I do.
So I’m not going to label that woman ‘a hater’ for policing that boundary, any more than I judge the much less scrutinized exclusion common among people of color that involves policing the boundary of that identity.
I will certainly concede that, as a gender-defiant dyke, I may see a very different angle than someone who looks and acts exactly as I do but IDs as trans.
As a mom whose mixed child is subject to policing from all four major ethnic groups in North America, I also know how painful that boundary-setting can be for the person being excluded or conditionally included, welcome in some spaces but not others.
Despite that, I can’t agree that policing makes people of color racist–just wary. And by the same token, these women are wary.

My takeFirst of all, Vogel is a Second Wave feminist. Meaning she’s a hypocrite in that she and the rest of the Second Wavers claim they have the the right to to decide for themselves how to define their own gender and their own lives, yet at the same time do just the opposite and then act like the Feminist Gestapo and then claim only they can decide who is and isn’t a woman!
To a large extent, and from My own research, alot of the Festies (especially the younger Third Wavers who’ve accepted MtFs as women!) have to problem allowing us on the Land.
We just need to wait I guess until Vogel either retires or kicks the bucket for the Third Wavers to take over the MWMF.
I remember when the Lesbian Avengers repeatedly zapped the festival, demanding we be allowed in.

would you…“I’m not going to label that woman ‘a hater’ for policing that boundary”
Would you label them a “hater” if they used terms like “mutilated male” or “ugly monster” because that’s the kind of rhetoric that passes for discourse on the Mich boards.

Lisa Vogel is a bigotSaying anything more gives her too much credit.

Yep, that’s definitely hatedef. as insulting language meant to dehumanize another.
That’s a tough problem, too, though a separate one. Is it the obligation of whoever hosts a contentious dialogue online to get that garbage off their servers–even when everyone involved is a volunteer or activist? There’s an argument for both sides of that.
However, I’m not disputing anyone’s right to judge the performers or the managers of the festival by the worst behavior of the most obnoxious members of that web community.
There are a lot of free, passive techniques that you can use to host a debate in which folks are on their best behavior–as demonstrated here at the Blend most days.

HypocrisyIs anyone else noticing the hypocrisy inherent in the statements Autumn has quoted here? To whit:

“Transitioning” is selling out one’s genuine self (who doesn’t happen to fit into what society expects of someone with genitals like yours’) and buying into the gender binary (society’s narrow definition of man or woman) that patriarchy has always had a stake in perpetuating.

and

Re-define “woman” as a “gender identity.” It will never do to allow “woman” to continue to refer to an adult female, as people who do not fit the biological profile of an adult female will never be able to claim to be women.

So, on the one hand there is no need to transition from female to male, because that’s giving into a false “gender binary,” but that binary must be maintained by the festival.
I realize these quotes likely come from different posters on their board, but it looks like the supporters of this policy will grasp at any excuse to justify it.
I’m also going to deliberately get myself into some hot water here, but I am appalled by the rank sexism communicated by a lot of these statements. Don’t get me wrong, I totally understand why women, or womyn, of any stripe would want a safe place to bond and explore their gender without the societal expectations placed on them. I’m a gay guy and feel exactly the same way sometimes in regards to my sexuality. Sometimes you just don’t want to be the only one in the room and want to be around people who can totally understand and accept you.
But, I’m sorry, the oppression that women have faced does not give any woman license to make statements such as these:

…for males to claim and do all of this is just another signal that males intend to run all of the world, according to their script, and that we, as females, as women, must push back.

Because all males are alike, you know.
and

No male can truly know what being female is.

Really? Am I lacking the intellectual capacity or the emotional depth to understand – or is it both? Certainly a gay man like me, raised by a feminist, with a beloved older sister, who has worked in a predominantly female industry for 2 decades and only rarely have had male bosses could never have any concept of what being a female is, right?
I’m sorry, but this smacks as an almost ludicrous example of the very worst type of feminism – the “feminine is good, masculine is bad” type. It’s the idea that men are simpletons overly controlled by their hormones (see the comments on testosterone) who are not as evolved as women. That is no better than the “overly emotional” arguments used to justify sexism against women.
I should no more be judged on the basis of my gender than a woman should. I have no problem with a women-only festival, but I do have problems with anyone using sexist/anti-trans arguments (because sexism, homophobia and anti-trans attitudes all come from the same source) to justify what can only be seen as discrimination.  

Shocked and Disgusted at Amy RayAs a very longtime fan of Indigo Girls, I also have to admit not realizing that they not only performed at the event but, as the interview indicates to me, support the bigoted policy.
I figure Lisa Vogel is hopeless, but I at least emailed the Indigo Girls to express my disgust. I’m embarrassed not to have know about their complicity sooner.

I don’t get this….To me, this is no different than a transgender group disallowing non trans people.  I’ve seen it on blogs, in groups, where the transcommunity made it very clear that they and only they were to be the voices on transgender issues.  Fine.  So these people want only womyn born womyn.  How is that different from the trans community wanting only trans voices heard in certain areas or people of color not wanting anyone not of color speaking up?  I’m a lesbian.  A close relative is transgender MtF.  She has not yet come out nor is transitioning yet.  She, however, has reaped many privileges I never have.  Raised male, she received all the privileges of that plus she married plus since society sees her as male, she receives all the benefits of married life.  If/when she transitions, she STILL gets to stay married despite the fact she is now female and that is illegal is most states.  Her wife will receive SS benefits if she dies because she was her “husband”.  I get none of these benefits.  
LGBT people are all oppressed.  None suffers worse than the others.  I have heard many transgender people say the gay community is transphobic yet resent when their homophobic behavior is pointed out.  We need to work together.  If this people exclude transgender womyn, then let’s listen to why.  do they have a  point?  Are these places where their voices are unwelcome in the transcommunities and others?  If that’s the case, then let’s work on making all spaces, not just theirs, welcoming to all.

It’s a choice…“Is it the obligation of whoever hosts a contentious dialogue online to get that garbage off their servers–even when everyone involved is a volunteer or activist? ”
They remove other hate speech from their forums. It’s a choice to leave the anti-trans stuff.

No male can truly know what being female isI don’t see that as sexist.  No more than a person of color claiming “No white person can truly know what being a person of color is.”  For example, you may be raised by females but you don’t know the monthly cramping and period pain.  You can understand only to a certain point.  You’re not the one going through it.  No more than I, as a woman, can understand fully the agony of being kicked in the testicles.  I can empathize, I can understand, but I don’t go through it.  

Bigotry, pure and simpleThere is also a clear difference between a minority being able to find some safe space from a majority and a majority excluding a small subgroup upon which they heap abuse.
All of these excuses for discrimination sound good until you take into account the history of the festival where it initially ejected transwomen by calling them men and the forum they provide for hate speech and activism against transpeople.

Women are discriminated againstWomen are discriminated against.  Therefore I don’t see them as a majority like people see wealthy white men who hold all the power.   If these women have an issue (and clearly some do) with transgender women, then we need to look at it closer.  If one women clearly says she hates transgender people, obviously she’s transphobic.  If another says, no, she wants a place for women who are born biologically female, how is that different from a person who wants a place for ONLY transgender people?  If a lesbian wants a space for only lesbians, I understand that.  If transgender people have spaces for only transgender people, I’m fine with that.  These people want a place for only women born with the sex of female.  Is it exclusive?  Yes.  Is it prejudice?  Yes-exactly in the same way that it is prejudice for transgenders to state that only transgender people are welcome or people of color to say only people of color are allowed.  Most people are willing to allow accepted discrimination–we allow black only areas, women only areas, etc., in light of the realities that women and minorities do not have the privilege of white males.  Fine.  Should the LGBT communities accept this–women excluding transgender women?  To me that’s far trickier because many transgender communities that I’ve met have been VERY  exclusive and some down right nasty at times.  It’s something that deserving rational discussion and open minds on both sides.  

No two women are identicalThis “I’m a woman, so I know women’s experiences” meme is ridiculous.
Have you had breast cancer? If not, you don’t know what that women’s experience is like.
Have you had a child? If not, you don’t know what that women’s experience is like.
Have you been harassed on the job? If not, you don’t know what that women’s experience is like.
Have you been battered? If not, you don’t know what that women’s experience is like.
Have you had your uterus removed as a child? If not, you don’t know what that women’s experience is like.
Have you had sex-correction surgery? If not, you don’t know what that WOMEN’S experience is like either!
You can empathize, you can understand, but you don’t go through it.
Why is there no trouble imagining community as including women with and without these diverse experiences, some having lived them, some only empathizing vicariously, but the NOT the last one? The second a trans woman shows up, the attitude becomes “fuck community” that MAN doesn’t belong?
This 1970s fascistic, totalizing feminism–where you assume one common women’s experience shared by all, which formerly didn’t even include the experience of black, latino, Asian, or poor women–is so grotesquely outdated that I can’t believe anyone is still making these arguments. Just like this ideology fenced out women of color in 1975, it is fencing out trans women today. Neither has ever rested on anything other than the raw power to set yourself up as the exclusive model of womanhood and exclude anything that differs from you.

So here’s a question..Can I, as a trans guy, attend? If not, then why can’t a transwoman, who is a woman (if I’m viewed as a guy), attend? I have no problem not attending since I am a guy and this festival is for women/womyn but I do not understand why my trans sisters cannot attend something that is, really, something that they should be able to be part of.
Perhaps someone should start a different women’s/womyn’s festival that is inclusive of all women/womyn.  

Except that…not everyone who would be assigned female by society and wants to be assigned female by society actually gets periods and/or cramping (amenorrhea).

I just read a few threads on their message board.
Wow, what a bunch of angry bigots.
Wow.

You don’t exclude black womenI have no tolerance for this spewing of non-trans privilege. Among women, non-trans women are the powerful majority. And they are using that power to subordinate trans women, the traditionally subordinated minority. There are no wealthy white men running the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival. There’s no one to blame but privileged non-trans women. And the difference between a transgender group wanting some space of their own and the exclusion of trans women from the music festival is that the latter, but not the former, is motivated by bigotry toward the excluded class. The bigot who wants a place for “women who are born biologically female” has no legitimate reason for wanting that space other than to use her power to marginalize trans women as other and inferior and deny their very womanhood. That’s the difference between people of color wanting a safe space and segregationists ordering separate schools. The two sides are not remotely equivalent in either power or motive.

We see things differentlyI guess we see things differently. Obviously we are discriminated against as women, but to me straight women trying to keep the feminist community straights only was clearly wrong and discriminatory. It didn’t matter that women as a group are disempowered in relation to men, what mattered was that straight women were empowered in relation to lesbian women within the group women.
It was a relatively empowered group excluding a disempowered group. And an empowered group that was demonizing lesbian women as “the lavender menace” and quite apropos to the current discussion, as not being “real” women. Wrong wrong wrong.
The same for my grandmother’s women’s club that excluded women who were black or Catholic or really pretty much everyone who wasn’t a rich WASP. Clearly discriminatory. Clearly wrong.

Amen!

Good grief!Do you realize how much trans women have to endure just to get to embrace the identity of “woman” publicly? And having endured those heavy burdens just to be able to embrace that identity, they don’t COUNT as women because their identity as a woman wasn’t just casually handed to them in the delivery room? I’d think the sacrifices necessary to get embrace the identity of woman ought to count for something!

Do you really expect “inclusion” from a party excluding men?This party is sexist on its face.  To expect it to be otherwise is to believe in fairy tales, or be deluded as to the ways of the world.

Some day…Some day, I’d love to go to this festival.  The lineup of performers looks great.  Which means it’s all the more disappointing that these great performers are choosing to participate in a festival that has this absurd policy of discrimination.
When this Voegel woman has retired and all women are allowed to attend, then I’ll go to the festival.  Until that changes, I just couldn’t bring myself to go.

absolutelythey’re thinking ‘group’ where you’ve written ‘subgroup’. that’s the transphobia. but to be fair, the trans community also has internal dissent over what constitutes a woman. for example the hbs/real ts crowd seem to me just as obnoxious.

Trans men just have to say they’re…womyn to get in, regardless of whether they have completely transitioned.  The prohibition is specifically aimed at transwomen in practice.  ”Men-born-womyn” have not been kicked out to the best of my knowledge.
What is the difference between these binary-protectors and the patriarchy?  The only difference I see is where they split the binary.  They are irrelevant and fading.  F**k em.

Things are rarely easySo you’re all right with a transwomen group excluding lesbians who are not transgender then?
Since when did being a woman mean they have all the power?  I think the Michigan Festival should be open to all women, transgender or not.  But I understand the point of view of someone stating “Look, they don’t allow me to play in THEIR sandbox, why should they play in mine?”  It’s not right, it’s not fair but it is understandable.  And many people, perhaps, doesn’t see it as discrimination because they see “Well, the trans community, Asian community, black community, etc., can bar us from their area, why can’t we do the same?”  It does no good to simply say “You have all the power and the transwomen don’t, therefore they need a safe place to get away from you, you privileged person but allow them into your place.”  It starts the us versus them war, the whole Oppression Olympics.  People state it’s not the same because of the power element.  For many people, they don’t feel in power.  Maybe they are desperately poor, have little power in their life, due to classism, sexism, etc..  For example, if you’re an unemployed poor white woman, raised in poverty, it’s hard to see the racism, much less understand it,  when a minority wealthy woman, raised in a life you’ll never understand and given opportunities only the rich get, complains.  It doesn’t make the bigotry right but it makes it a jumping off point.  How should people work with this?
And no one yet has mentioned how we should deal with the homophobia in all communities, including transgender communities nor the privilege that some transgender people get–the heterosexual privilege, etc.  We need to discuss and separate legitimate issues from the anger.  Many transgender communities were rightfully outraged when they were tossed under the bus in 2007.  Yet I’ve also read discussions where some transgender people do not agree with many of the LGB needs or wants.  Very little is clear cut black and white, this is bad, this is good.  For example, I loathe the Roman Catholic church with a passion and don’t understand how anybody, especially GLBT folk could belong to it.  Hell, I don’t see how any woman could belong to it.  Yet they do and people say it’s not so simple.  To me it is–it’s a hateful, outdated murdering organization that has done far more harm than any possible good.  Yet people, good people I know, support it.  

DerailingHomophobia is not the focus of this. To try to take the focus away from the transphobia in “womyn-born-womyn” policies is just using a derailing strategy.
And being a woman is not “their sandbox”. They do not get to exclude women at will. Their argument for the policy is that trans women are not women and to argue that their policy is okay is to argue that their justification is right.

It’s not the sexism, it’s the hypocrisy.I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with saying that men can’t truly know what being a woman is like. But look at the context that the person who wrote that post is using it in. Apparently, despite the fact that she’s female (so I assume, based on the quotation) she knows what being male is well enough to categorically say that trans women are actually “men”. And being “men”, of course us ignorant trans women can’t possibly know what being female is well enough to disprove her assertions ‘cuz we can’t know what being a woman is like, right?  

Let me try that last sentence again…And being “men”, of course us ignorant trans women can’t possibly know what being female is well enough to disprove her assertions ‘cuz we can’t know what being a woman is like, right?
And being “men”, of course us ignorant trans women can’t possibly know what being female is like well enough to say otherwise, ’cause, well, she says so, right?

I am saying that discussion is vitalOn both sides and that to the group running it, their position may seem very legitimate.  It’s damn hard for anyone to hear “You should include everyone” yet the group saying that reserves the right to discriminate themselves.  Why do you think so many white people get furious when they are told their groups are discriminatory yet other ones are not, especially if the whites in question are working class/poverty class?  They haven’t been handed anything and then they’re told they’re not allowed to discriminate but other people can?  Many do not see themselves as people of privilege, especially if they were raised among other white people.  They see the classism, poor versus rich, but they don’t see racism because many were raised hard knock themselves.  Dialogues are vital.  If the festival is to include all women, transgender or not, then perhaps there should be an opening of transgender groups to all people as well.  And there needs to be an explanation, clear and practical, to this group running the festival, why transgender people need transgender only spaces.  It may be very possible that some of the women there have had rotten experiences with transgender people in their lives.   So perhaps a group of different people can sit done and calmly, rationally discuss ideas and possible solutions.

That’s the most damning thingthat could be said about MCWC.
I think I’ll go ask them why that is, and if I get a response, report back.
(tootles off to ask questions that need to be asked, even if they result in unpalatable answers…)

White Power!Try this experiment, cmaciain:
Raise your right arm in the air, clench your fist, and say, “Black Power!”
Now…
Raise your right arm in the air, clench your first, and say, “White Power!”
Feel any difference?
Now…
Raise your right arm in the air, clench your first, and say, “Born Womyn Power!”
Which does it feel more like?

Get Real!While I have not attended the actual Music Fest, not even I am that audacious, (read: I’m scared of them), I can attest to their blatant transphobia.  I have met Bitch and Ferron, at Ferron’s home, where she hosts an annual gathering the week before the Festival.  I found Bitch to be friendly and inclusive, but Ferron OMG, she openly expressed her discontent with not only my presence, but that of my friend and her son, and my partner and our children.
A sentiment obviously shared by at least a fraction of others in attendance.  I was incensed by the overt hatred emanating from some of the women attending, and not alone in my observations.
Anyway, more than simply discriminating against trans people, this phenomenon goes deeper in questioning the legitimacy of the entire transsexual identity.  If one looks at their website, one will find that they sponsor transgender forums hosted by trans-men.  What the hell is that all about?  They will openly embrace post transitional trans men, but not a post transitional trans woman.
Doesn’t that seem to negate the premise that we undergo chemical and surgical treatments to align our sex with our gender?
Whatever, if they want a space of their own to go poop in the woods and not shower for a week, I say let them have it.  More power to them really!  I didn’t meet enough women I would want to be friend’s with to make it worth attending anyway.  The only suggestion I would have is that they should move the venue to the other side of the State.  Hell, MI is closer to Ann Arbor.  That way we can all tell them to go to Hell where they belong!
And to Josephine, that thinks this will improve when the director is no longer in charge, all I can say is not hardly.  They also have a policy of not questioning each others right to attend, because they had such a rise in violence toward some attendees that looked a little too much like men.  It got so bad that people were seriously injured.  That attitude won’t change any time soon.

Did you look at the dates on the Amy Ray interview? The date of the press release?The date of one of the press release I linked to was from the year 2000, and another was from 2006. The Amy Ray interviews were from 2004/2005.
The “discussions” regarding the womyn-born-womyn attendance policy have been going on for well over a decade. Camp Trans itself as been outside the festival since at least the mid-nineties.
When will enough discussion with festival organizers to end their discriminatory, segregationist policy that fuels antitrans hate going to be enough? When do we begin holding the festival organizers AND the performing artists accountable for suborning hate, discrimination, and segregationism related to the festival?
My answer for myself — as well as for all of my peer women baristas here at Pam’s House Blend — is “As close to now as possible.”

You can’t do that.Well, there you go exploring some of the finer points that don’t fit into a sound bite or quick blog post.  Um, this is america, remember?
To be clear, although I don’t agree with you on every point  you make I do appreciate the subtleties of the questions you’ve brought up.  Please allow me to ask one of my own:
I get the feeling you forgive them because they are 70′s Second-wave style Feminists and much of feminism has passed them by, much as people often tolerate misogyny coming from old, WWII or Korean war era men.
Question: If we should tolerate the womyn-born-womyn crowd’s words and actions against trans people, since they are based on misguided and outdated gender beliefs, by the same token should we not be equally tolerant if those words and actions are based on misguided and outdated religious beliefs?  

All bigotry disturbs meAnd that includes groups who exclude others due to the fact that they themselves were discriminated against.  It becomes an ugly merry go round of who did what to whom and it never ends well.
I don’t believe in white power or black power, born womyn power or transgender power.  We are people.  And we have enough stacked against us.  Should the Michigan’s Womyn Festival include all women?  Absolutely.  Should we LGBT all work together?  Absolutely.  It’s never going to happen exactly because we all don’t have the same wants, goals and desires.  I know transgender people who, once they had completed their transition, immediately stopped all activities on behalf of LGBT people.  They assimilated and never again have stepped forward to do anything for civil rights because they got what they wanted and they could pass, therefore why should they bother?  I have met gay men who do nothing for womens’ rights yet feel upset when their rights aren’t fought for, lesbians who don’t like bisexuals, etc., etc.  It is a spiral.  Again, I would love to see a companionable discussion between the group running the Festival and a LGBT group.  It may very well be that they do not see a connection between LGB rights and transgender rights and that is something I’ve seen on both sides of the aisle.  The solution for that is an answer I don’t have.  If anyone does, I’d love to hear it.

As Autumn points out below…We have been trying to have a “companionable discussion” with Michfest for nigh on two decades. I think we’ve long passed the point at which we have to conclude that the anti-trans policy remains, not because of a lack of discussion, but because of active bigotry. If all bigotry disturbs you, don’t you think it should actively be called out?

but no men…yeah, that inclusive.
this entire thread makes me want to puke.

Exactly – and Only I can know this Man’s ExperienceNo, as a man, I can’t know firsthand what horrible cramps feel like, but I can tell you what it’s like to care for a sister with endometriosis so severe the only time she’s ever been truly free from pain was during her two pregnancies.
I may not be able to bear children, but I do work in health care, where at least one or two of my colleagues are pregnant at any one time, so I know more about pregnancy and childbirth than many Ob/Gyns (let me tell you, lunchtime discussions of episiotomies are incredibly informative, if a bit gross).
I may not have been battered myself, but, as I assisted my mother with her voluteer work at a shelter, I do know what it’s like for women and children to literally flee your presence because of their ingrained fear of the men who beat them. I also know what it’s like to be targeted by an abuser – this time my cousin’s ex-husband – for helping my cousin escape his assaults. Trust me, when a violent man threatens to slit your throat – and I was only 14 at the time – it is damn scary, particularly because he had the keys to our house at the time.
I can’t know the exact nature of femininity, but I am also not some neaderthal member of the patriarchy eager to keep women down.  

you expected fairnessfrom a party that excludes one half of all people.
and they were hateful towards you?  Even though you made that huge sacrifice?  They were still unfair towards you?
You don’t say!
These womyn have problems, but they go a lot deeper than trans-phobia.  That’s just one small facet of their issues.

YesI agree.  I agree it’s bigotry.  I just also agree that they do have a point when they say “Transgenders have spaces of their own, not allowing us, why can’t we have one that doesn’t allow them?”  Trying to assist my transgender relative, I got a lot of that hostility.  
I think inclusion of all is the answer.  We need to think of ways to convince all LGBT folk to work together.  As said, if anyone has an answer to showing people how we are all connected, that transgender rights and LGB rights can be the same, I would love to hear it.  It runs on both sides of the aisle.  It also may be an idea to talk to festival participants and find out their views and why they feel that way.  Not accusing them but simply asking if they think LGB rights and transgender rights dovetail and why or why not and how we can work closer together.

Not so sureSpeaking as a trans woman and as an Indigo Girls fan, I have to say I don’t see what you’re seeing in the interview, or at least not in all of them taken together. Yes, they (well, Ray, anyhow; I don’t know about Saliers) have performed at MWMF; my impression, however, from reading the interview set as a whole (which involved interviewing a number of people, including Camp Trans folks and other supporters of inclusion as well as Vogel and her ilk), was of someone who didn’t know a whole lot about the issue but was making a sincere effort to, and in so doing coming around more or less to our side of the issue — my perception has been that they’ve been pretty good allies to the trans community over the past few years. (It is, of course, possible that I’m letting the fact that I love their music blind me to their actual attitudes.) Overall, though, I think that disgust may not be quite the right reaction, especially as I don’t think they support the policy (although, admittedly, they clearly don’t oppose it to the extent that they refuse to play the festival).

WOMYNS NEED TO GET WITHWHO would want to be with a bunch of transphobic, decades-regressed, mullet-wearin’ discriminators?  
Some of the worst people in the world are WOMYN.  Gawking, sexist, racist, looksist womyn.  Trans people are living proof that gender traits are acquired, not always innate.  
Folk music and folk festivals have completely turned away from their liberatory political power.  To simultaneously try to uplift “real womyn” while excluding those outside the fence is ridiculous.  
Empower the disempowered; enfranchise the disenfranchised; only by coming together do we have a voice.

So you oppose bigotryby spouting bigotry?  Interesting…

But…but…Don’t third wavers also deny that there is an innate biologically-based (i.e., neurological) Self that is not a social construct?  If so, that would put them in direct  conflict with what has been learned about transsexuals since 1994…as I’ve seen many who call themselves Third Wave are much more inclusive, incorporating bi and lesbian woman as well as women from backgrounds not centered on middle class white America, yet still base that inclusion on the effects of societal pressures and norms on women.  In other words, they still don’t fully accept that there are biological, neurological differences between the peaks of the male and female bell curves of neurological structures and abilities.  
Fourth Wave, perhaps?

whoopsI meant ‘bi and lesbian women of backgrounds previously excluded” which was supposed to then connect with the whole not-middle-class-white women ranges…

do you understand the terms“misogyny”, “patriarchy” and “male privilege”?  once you do, you will vomit for other reasons.

That “whooshing” sound over your head… It also may be an idea to talk to festival participants and find out their views and why they feel that way.
What part of “we’ve been trying to have a ‘companionable discussion’ for nigh on two decades” are you taking to mean that nobody’s ever approached Lisa Vogel or anyone else  involved with and/or attending Michfest to “find out their views and why they feel that way?”
I just also agree that they do have a point when they say “Transgenders have spaces of their own, not allowing us, why can’t we have one that doesn’t allow them?”
First off, I would ask you not to degender or third-gender trans people by referring to us as “transgenders”. Some of us do identify with third-gender or non-gender identities, but we’re talking about trans women in this discussion. (As a general guideline, it helps to use transgender and other trans- words as adjectives, not as nouns, to avoid degendering trans people.)
But really, how is the institutional exclusion of trans people by Michfest (or any other women’s institution, for that matter) equivalent to a trans group setting up a safe space for trans people only? As has been pointed out before by kathygnome and SkepticalCicada, that comparison would only work if trans people as a group were truly viewed as equals to cis people as a group. To argue that trans people wanting trans-only spaces is just as bigoted as “womyn-born-womyn” policies sounds a lot like white people complaining about “reverse racism”.

I don’t think it’s the same as other forms of transphobiaConventional transphobia is rooted in heteropatriarchy and in misogyny. Cultural feminist transphobia is rooted in certain experiences and controversies in lesbian spaces. Cultural feminism began as a backlash against queer feminism, and against the way certain queer feminists, such as Andrea Dworkin, embraced androgyny and ran from womonhood. Queer feminists appropriated transsexualism, ignoring the experiences of many trans people; unfortunately, cultural feminists condemned transsexualism, also ignoring the experience of many trans people.
Unfortunately, in this misogynyistic society, many womyn grow up with body issues, such as anorexia, and such as feelings of shame about their bits. In addition, many womyn hate their assigned gender role, and some womyn feel alienated from womonhood. A lot of the transphobia has come from cis womyn who felt shame about their bits, felt alienated from womonhood, or both, but who later learned to embrace their womonhood and love their bits. If they assume trans people are facing what they have faced, and if they know that transition would only have created more trouble for themselves, it’s easy for them to assume that transition will only ever create more trouble for actual trans people.

I never saidthat transwomen were not women.  I repeated the quote that was indicated “no male can truly know what being a female is”.  It’s no more bigoted than saying no white person can know what a person of color goes through.  Do you have a problem with that reference?  Perhaps I should have used the phrase, “no man can truly know what being a woman is”.  I also never said that all men were oppressive or wanted to hold women back.  I used the period/testicle reference as a simple point of reference.  Of course not all women have uteri nor all men testicles.  Nor are all people of color automatically known to be people of color.  So when a person of color says white people can’t understand what being a person of color is like, I don’t jump on them for not saying the full “Whites can’t understand what being a person of color is like unless of course, they are actually albinos and have a heritage of African American, Hispanic, etc.”

I’m vomiting because your reply right nowtwo wrongs don’t make a right.
but to many people they do.

sorry trans friendsIf you can excuse these womyns’ exclusion of men, then I don’t have your back on this one.
If you allow them to segregate and exclude, then I will too.

Not youI was talking about the quote in the original post that that line came from.

Hey…What cmaciain said. We just don’t negatively paint all members of identity groups with a single broad brush. The TOS’s Section A, items 8 & 9 apply to that kind of broad brush painting.

I meantactually roaming the fair, talking to the people who go there.  I understand people have tried it.  I was thinking perhaps of something with people who actually go to the festival and enjoy it.  A reporter on the ground, so to speak.  Not with the organization, perhaps, but the people attending.  If it has been done before, then I apologize for suggesting it.  I just think if we get an idea of where the fair goers stand, then we have a start.  If the majority of people there are say, lesbian women, do they feel all right with the idea of exclusion?  If so, why?  How can we make LGBT issues work together?  The same for transgender women.  Are they interested in making LGBT issues dovetail?  
As for your exclusion comment, I do know transwomen who refuse to let lesbians into their transwomen group because these women are not transwomen.  Are you saying that lesbian women, therefore, somehow, somewhere hold more power than transwomen, even if the transwoman is heterosexual?  I don’t see that.  In fact, read my comment about my close transwoman relative.  She currently has many privileges I, as a lesbian, lack.  

oopsSorry, then.  I jumped the gun.  I apologize.

Not a problemI could have probably been a little more clear about it myself…

and further, how do those apply at a music festival? Should we gay men have a huge music festival and exclude heterosexuals?  Bisexuals?
I mean, heteros have been oppressing gay people forever.  
I say if you’ve put your penis in a vagina, you can’t come to my music festival.
How do you like that one?  
Exclusion and segregation and outright hatred is a many-edged sword.  You trans people want desperately to go to a concert that by its very nature is exclusive, segregated, and sexist, but then you want to be included despite your differences.
I wonder how the michigan womyn treat people who have both a vag and a cock?  Oh yeah, probably: you own or have owned a cock, YOU’RE OUT!  And we mean personally owned, not just borrowed from your husband for a time back in the 80′s.
Heterosexual womyn?  Probably allowed, there is a chance they could put out, way out there in the woods for a week.  
Bisexual?  no, probably not, too much mixing of the cock and vag.
Whatever.
And I don’t want to hear any more about how they are trying to get away from men and create an environment where they can be free of the presence of men….because a lot of those ‘womyn’…and trust me, some are my friends, look and act more like men then I do.  So what are they getting away from, and why can’t I go?  Should I fem it up more?  Oh, no, wait, I have a cock.  And getting rid of it won’t help.  God this thread does make me want to vomit, as do any of you who support this type of segregated event in the first place.
(Wretch)

Until you’ve walked a mile in a womon’s shoes(I’d suggest comfortable hiking boots) you won’t understand. Male privilege pervades this whole society. It is important to create spaces free from it, and, at this point, that means creating spaces specifically for womyn. Cis privilege pervades this whole society too.
The problem is that the “womyn-born-womyn” policy reinforces cis privilege, and it isn’t necessary to counter male privilege.

I mean the policy isn’t necessary for that purposeA trans-inclusive policy would better counter male privilege.

Excuse me….But weren’t transgendered people PART of the Stonewall Rebellion? And haven’t people who are transitioning or have transitioned ALWAYS been a part of the Gay/Lesbian movement? I’d say trans gender people HAVE. That means it’s the Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual/TRANSGENDER movement. Sheesh.  

Yes, it has been done
Camp Trans has been making a point of engaging with the Michfest attendees for a long time, both “on the land” and through inviting Michfest attendees to visit Camp Trans itself. Generally speaking (at least as of 2008 when I last went to CT), most Michfest attendees are either supportive of trans women attending or are just apathetic about the issue; it seems to be a (very vocal) minority of attendees that are in favor of upholding the trans-exclusionary policy.
To clarify my point on exclusion, let me put it this way: trans-excluding spaces almost always form out of anti-trans bigotry and cissexism; trans-only spaces are more often formed as a refuge from anti-trans bigotry and cissexism. Which isn’t to say that there aren’t trans people who are prejudiced against cis people, just that the reasons why trans-only spaces form aren’t usually the same reasons why trans-excluding spaces form.
As for your whether a cis lesbian woman or a straight trans woman would have more privilege? What kind of privilege are you talking about? Which cis lesbian woman versus which straight trans woman? You mention your relative having many privileges you don’t have, but surely you have many privileges that she lacks (such as not being outed by one of the Social Security Administration’s “no-match” letters when you apply for a job). The thing is, privilege and oppression are experienced in deeply personal ways unique to each individual’s situation, and to not recognize that by trying to say that one group as a whole hold more or less power than another group as a whole just invites yet another round of the oppression olympics.

You’d think that would be the case.Unfortunately, right after Stonewall, groups moved to make sure that the open gay movement would primarily benefit upper-class and heteronormative gays and lesbians. The campaign spearheaded by Ron Gold to de-list homosexuality from the DSM while leaving all “disorders” in place that marginalized the experiences of gender-variant people was one of the principle tools of this campaign. The “normal” gays and lesbians were just like everyone else, they insisted, not like those weird gender-y freaks. By the late 1970s, trans people were heavily marginalized and virtually criminalized.
We won the battle but holy crap did we lose the war.

From what I can understand in your comments,you’re angry at the very fact that women may want to have a women-only event.  Am I correct in that understanding?  I have no problem with women-only events.  What I have a problem with is some women telling other women that they don’t qualify.
As a side note, I went to this festival something like 20 years ago.  If the anti-trans bigotry was happening then, I was oblivious to it.  What I was aware of was how freeing it was for me to be, for a few days, away from the very brutal male-dominated society I lived in at the time.  Being an out lesbian in MI was no picnic.  So it is very sad for me to see the organizers of the festival destroying the one and only place I know of in MI for women to live free of sexism and male domination for a few days a year.  Saying this, I am NOT saying that all men are evil sexist pigs.  But there is no denying that our society is still dominated by them.

What about male roadies and sound board and lighting techs…
Last I checked the Teamsters are not so keen on lockout policies for their members…
I’d love to know how many male back up musicians, techs, loadout crew and such are excluded. (if any)
Or are they willing to overlook that stuff…
What bullshit.

Like “Matt Chamberlain” – is he refused entry to play the drums? What horse hockey.The Indigo Girls have toured as a duo and with a band. In 1990, they toured with the Atlanta band, the Ellen James Society, backing them; from 1991 onwards, they toured with various side players:
Brady Blade – drums (2002-04)
Matt Chamberlain – drums (2006-present)
Blair Cunningham – drums (2000)
Caroline Dale – cello (1999)
Gail Ann Dorsey – bass (1994)
Carol Isaacs – keyboards, accordion (1999-2007)
Clare Kenny – bass (1999-present)
Caroline Lavelle – cello (2000)
Sara Lee – bass (1991-98)
Jerry Marotta – drums, percussion (1992-98)
John Reynolds – drums (1999)
Scarlet Rivera – fiddle (1992)
Jane Scarpantoni – cello (1992)
Julie Wolf – keyboards, acc

I don’t understand your problem with women-only events.The anti-trans problem aside, why should you care if a group of women want to party without men for a few days?  Are you aware that there are men-only events held somewhere every day in this country, and that men will not allow women into some professions?  Yet you are upset that a group of women want to have a women-only event for a week in MI once a year?  Your response seems really out of proportion.

no men…Nope. One of the major accomplishments of the festival was in breaking boundaries by giving those jobs to women.
That’s really what’s saddest about all this. MWMF did all these incredible things, but history will remember it mainly as a hate group.

Why go there?Listen, the event is poisoned by the organizers because of the anti-trans bigotry, but that doesn’t mean there is fault in every aspect of what they do.  If you have evidence that what you are imagining is happening, then it would be worth presenting.  But what is the value in tearing them down based on hateful suppositions only?
The times I was there (very long ago, I admit) the only men allowed on the site were, iirc, the garbage truck guys.  And then only just long enough to do their work and leave.  

The only evidence I have is their own words…
.

I agreeabout the oppression Olympics.  With my relative, a transwoman who has not yet transitioned,  it’s the privileges she has: she was raised male and granted the privileges of that, she is married and has that privilege–if she does transition, she may stay married if her wife decides to stay with her.  Her wife will receive her social security benefits if she dies.  She has health insurance on her spouse’s insurance and receives all the benefits of marriage.  I, as a lesbian, receive none of this.  In fact, my partner once bitterly said if she was a transman, we could at least then get married and get the benefits.  She’s not and I’m not a heterosexual, so no dice.  Does my relative suffer more than I do?  Do I suffer more than her?    I won’t say.  I ‘ll say she–her herself, not all transwomen by any means, received more privileges than I–me, not all lesbians–did.  Her struggles are hers, mine are mine.  

Trans women are not male1. The problem with Lisa Vogel’s world view is that her understanding of what a trans woman is is based on foundational concepts that date back to the 1960′s and earlier, that were incorporated into Mary Daly’s (and her student Janice Raymond’s) viewpoints, which form the structure of a radical lesbian feminist separatist conceptualization that fails when examined in the light of modern science.
2. Trans women are not male, and are never properly characterized as male.  An incorrect initial assignment as male on the basis of external genital shape (due to the developmment of wolffian duct system rather than mullerian) does not make a trans woman male.
3. Trans women are women, not men, and we are not male.  We may not be “completely” female, but in a binary system that expects two and only two sexes, female is the more appropriate designation, regardless of surgical status.
The situation is reminiscent of the celebrated New York court decision in the matter of Maurice v. Judd, which dealt with the taxation of fishoil and its applicability to whale oil.  The court held that the whale was a fish, and that the tax was peoperly imposed.
The Bible considers whales to be fish, and bats to be birds, and the Bible, and testimony from sea captains, together with a thorough cross-examination of the chief scientific witness, led the court to its erroneous conclusion. Advances in scientific understanding have led to different conclusions, and the case was mooted before it could be appealed, because the legislature changed the law to avoid further embarrassment.
Still, we live in a world where old and erroneous ways of thinking only grudgingly give way to the advances that come with greater knowledge and research.
Lisa Vogel’s erroneous essentialism, like that of the Roman Catholic hierarchy and others who cling to outdated and false assumptions, will eventually find itself in the trash heap of history.  In the meantime, we all suffer from the prejudice that results from a lack of information, and a refusal to acknowledge that things may actually be different in reality from the way they may seem on the basis of long-held erroneous beliefs.

But you’re not quoting their words…

SorryI shouldn’t have assumed that your relative had already transitioned.

No problemLike I said, I know she is suffering.  I can only try to help her as best I can.  It’s a very odd family I live in:)

they might just play a straight up accoustic setthey have been known to just perform with each other and thats it…its sad too cuz matt chamberlain is an awesome drummer.  

Thanks, AnneI appreciate your better-informed take on the issue than mine.
It’s still disappointing to see them perform. I understand the “let’s interview and try to understand” thing happening once or twice. But at some point, shouldn’t they get beyond the information-gathering phase? I mean, it doesn’t really sound like facilitating more dialogue is going to help. It may be time for the kind of pressure that comes from refusals to perform.

Interesting analogshort answer: I don’t tolerate John McCain using a racial slur against Asians, but I have to be realistic about the results of my objections. He’s not going to change, but soon, he’s not going to be around to bug me.
Longer answer: There is an important difference between excluding trans women because your conception of what ‘woman’ means doesn’t cover them, and hate speech that demonizes them.
The second is intended to dehumanize and exclude. The first is intended to set the boundary of who’s in the group and who’s not–a tradition in any oppressed group. (Randall Kennedy wrote a great book that addresses racial policing that changed my life as an activist in minority communities, I think it’s called ‘Black’.)
I’d suggest that the analog might be a man whose daughter was a friend of mine in college, twenty years ago. His experience of race was that of a black man raised in lower AL, who had come to LA as a young newlywed to work in the aircraft plant. After the (white) boys came home, he and his wife were both laid off and while he made a steady living reading meters he had been through a lot by the time I met his youngest girl.
So when he told her that, friend or no friend, no white girl ever slept under this roof and it’s not going to change today–I didn’t take it personally. Was that an act of racial prejudice? No doubt. Does it make him a hateful bigot? That’s a harder question.
Obviously the analogy breaks down where I accept his right to police a group I’m clearly not a member of, versus the question being who’s in and who’s out.

Let’s not forget….There was a lawsuit up in Canada about a transwoman who was denied a volunteer post as a rape counselor because the facility claimed that because she was born male she would never be subject to being raped?

the policy begs for hypocrisyI’ve been to Michigan.  The space was incredibly empowering.  Most women my age (under 30) wore arm bands in solidarity with TransCamp. Together, we tried to figure out for ourselves the tension between needing/wanting that empowering space and the tragedy that the organizers don’t “get” why excluding trans women is immoral and hypcritical.  The hypocrisy of the festival is why I haven’t gone back–it was too painful to watch trans women, who, just as much as the rest of the women at Michigan (and maybe more), need/deserve the embrace of that community.
I believe that all female-identified folks should be allowed to attend Michigan.  I tend to think that fully transitioned, fully male-identified transguys should probably respect the space as female and not be allowed to attend. I know that could be a controversial stance, but I do think it is important for female-identified folks to have some space of their own. But I firmly believe Michigan should absolutely include female-identified transwomen, regardless of whether these women are “fully” physically transitioned or not.

I’m in total agreement, Lurleenthe Festival was an important space to be relatively “free” from sexist institutions for one week a year. It was transformative and empowering. I am so sad that the festival excludes trans women.  I won’t go back because of it.

Here’s what informs them:tyrannies-are-male-tyrants-most-with-dicks-intact-who-parade-as-patriarchal-stereotypical-fuck-toys
You’ll find
tyranniesaremaleswithdicks/
most instructive – including the changing of dissenting posts.
Then there’s Dirt of the New Radical Lesbian Feminist Front (NRLFF).
The bits where Dirt accuses trans people of sabotaging vehicles to kill “womyn-born-womyn” is in earlier posts. Dirt has been known to use “friendship” with employees of the IRS to locate names and addresses of trans people, and cause them to be audited. Then boast about that on the Michfest forum.
Compared to these people, LaBarbera is positively sane. Just don’t call them “transphobic”.

You tell it!Let’s not forget Joann, is Vogel’s (and other Second Wavers) myth that we transwomen have “male privilege”.
My answer to them is: bullshit!
I have about as much male privilege as they do, in fact to turn it around, is Vogel and her crew who have female privilege!
I guess we should have to tell Vogel and her ilk the horror stories of those transwomen murdered by bigots through the years — where was their “male privilege”? Has she or anyone else who follows this bigoted mindset ever attended the Transgender Day of Remembrance?
How about all the transwomen who’ve lost their jobs, been denied promotions (like me!), or been the victims of discrimination because we made the decision to not live a lie and transition — where was our “male privilege”?
How about all of the transwomen who’ve been assaulted, raped, and victims of a hate crime and the police and the courts do nothing because we’re transgendered — where’s the “male privilege” in that, Lisa?

QuestionAnd I mean this as no offense, but as honestly questioning gender roles. Suppose a trans man, once a woman who transitions to male, wants to go to the festival because, say they used to go when they were a woman, would that mean now that they are forced to forgo something they loved?

Think you can argue with this?

Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:24 am    Post subject:  
…our Dyke Marches have been infiltrated in the Cities, our clubs, our groups, and most of our Lesbian environments and businesses have been shut down or closed or altered so obviously by those wearing male parts or displaying male parts(breastless hairy chests, arms, ect and scratchy testosterone hormone induced voices and attitudes, or the mincing faux femininity of the male born who really have NO CLUE what bio-females go through on a worldwide basis, but still working hard on coopting our identities as women, as Dykes, as Lesbians), that some of us are those DykeAmazons Butch and Femme and otherwise alike who stand strong that THIS IS OUR TRIBE, OUR IDENTITY, and we have as much right to it as any other Nation or Nation State or Tribe or People…and the others continue to coopt and silence us!
Well guess what, we’re exposing your crimes and your lies and your bullshit and WE WON’T STAND FOR THIS ANY LONGER! Michfest is no longer the ONLY place calling it as it is, and how much the trans movement is so male identified and actively lies about it’s agenda as well as being incredibly anti-Lesbian and anti-Feminist, and I’m not talking a p.c. line here, cuz I’m not p.c myself, but I AM talking a strong Dyke line connected with the empowerment of bio-females throughout the world…and especially for Dykes, Butches, Femmes and others….STOP coopting us, and STOP SILENCING us….we’re tired of your destructiveness to our communities, our spaces, our places, and the destruction of our very women, convincing them instead they gotta be ‘male’ because they dont’ ‘fit in’ to some heterosexual rule of what a female can be…..just because you want to mutilate YOUR OWN body.

They’re the REAL victims here you see. Just don’t call them transphobic.

Sigh…What is the obsession with Michigan?First of all, it suffers from the Three M’s Issue:
1. It is in Michigan
2. There are a lot of mosquitos
3. There is Mud.
Okay, so you say that you want to go to hear the music:
1. There are other women’s music festivals and folk festivals.
2. Have you ever tried to hear the music at a rural music festival?
But the Second Wavers are mean and I want my equality!
1. I want mine too, and the hard core amongst them, the same crowd that says the nastiest things to trans people, have no love for me either becasue I was married twice before I came out and worse, reproduced. In their eyes I am not a Lesbian
2. They are crazy. Read their stuff. There is a cut-off somewhere between reality and their conception of an either/or, good/evil, womyn/male world.
3 They commit the sin identified by my beloved mentor, Rebeca, as the most profound sin a feminist can commit: defining out and abandoning other women. Rebeca, beloved Profesora, was an anarcho-feminist, one of the Mujeres Libres, in the 1930′s in the Civil War. No modern activist wwill ever have her credentials. Michigan is an artificial “womyn-space” for a few days, Rebeca and her compatriots created a society of independent women that it took the Luftwaffe to destroy. The MWMF crowd can say what it wants to, to me and to any Feminist from a Eurpoean background, they lack substance and credibility, playing “womynworld” for a few days and then going back to pen screeds upon blogs.
But I want to network with activists and I am at a disadvantage because I cannot get in.
1. I am an activist. The women who comprise the membership of Heterodoxy are activists. A few have been to Michigan once, to say that they have been there. Our activism is not made to suffer because we prefer meeting rooms at the Ritz-Carlton to the mud and mosquitos.
2. Difficult to network with people who resent your presence. Alliances are generally built amongst people with a community of interest. The extremist Second Wavers really dont even have a community of interest with European Second Wave feminism.
Finally, they have let trans people in, at least people of operative history. They dont want males or male organs on the grounds. Where do they get to draw the line as to the comfort level of women? The term transgender as currently defined coevers everything from post operative individuals living as women to weekend drag queens.  

I understand and agree to a point LurleenBut the reason these arguments don’t hold water, is that ANY gay event is freeing from sexism and male domination to a point…
and since many womyn DO look like men, and act like men, (I’ll be happy to argue this point…I’ve been around the gay block for far too long to not know how many lesbians appear.)
So what are you keeping out by keeping out “men”?
Male innards, that is it.  The gender roles are completely thrown out in many individuals instances, where the lesbian, and gay, and bi and queer communities are concerned.
So what are they keeping out?  Male innards.
And a sex change only changes outtards.  Not innards.  (this coming from an RN…I’m a little tounge in cheek here…)

I see your point, but…I see your point of view and the assumption that you’ll only have to tolerate the intolerance for a short while longer (and only in limited fashion or environments) is very practical.
However, I can’t help but think of an exception:  What about the way this person influences the next generation?  What if they are respected in their own subculture and the younger or less experienced of the crowd see what is presented as the “right” (or only) way to be?  Then the problem is not time-limited any longer and the attitudes could be picked up by someone younger with more vigor to promote them.

What does this sound like?

Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:40 pm    Post subject:
Yes, there are a lot of lesbians and feminist blogs out there that are firing up with good and revealing analyses and deconstructions of the trans agenda.

You’ll find this and a whole lot more at http://www.michfest.com/forums…
Appropriating Womanhood in 7 Easy Steps
The Fallacy of Cis-Privilege
Take a look at how an attempt at objectivity is treated, at MichFest Workshop on “Science and Sexuality”. The first thing that happens is that she’s accused of being trans…

ExceptThat many – not all, but a controlling group – have made it clear that such women are not invited, that they are actually men colonising womyn’s space. Operative history or not.
I know trans women who have been going there for many years. Post-Ops, deep stealth.
I myself would not go. I would not feel safe.
They make few distinctions between Intersexed and Trans women, you see. Both are pariahs. See Greer’s work on the subject, where opinion and philosophic idealism trumps fact.

Stop telling lies.You start your post saying that you’ve never been to MWMF, and end it by saying that people were seriously injured. If you weren’t there, the best you know is second hand. Please provide some actual evidence, not something you’ve made up to support what your belief that everything associated with Michfest is evil. Do you have videotape, eyewitness statements, etc.?  

Someone trans-identified at the gate last year and was greeted and permitted to enter.As for Greer, well no one loves Professor Greer, even in Europe. She’s not a nice to thing about anything or anyone, including Professor Irigaray, whom I consider a far superior theorist.
And, my dear Zoe, in the end, the lot of them are crazy.

And Zoe:I, myself, have never gone, and never will. My Profesora would appear as a Ghost to chide me and given the message so closely associated with “the land”(why do I always expect Rogers and Hammersttein’s ‘Oklahoma’ to play when those words are spoken?) were I to go and add to the credence of the place as a gathering of feminists, I would do a disservice to her memory and to the practical feminism and radicalism that I learned from her.

Hate doesn’t just happen …Dirt seems to lash out at hostility to butch womyn and what she sees as pressure to feminize or transition. (And there IS pressure to feminize. Cis butch womyn may not face as much pressure to feminize right now, but they had to deal with more pressure to feminize growing up than trans butch womyn do. I get a lot of pressure to feminize, and I’m not really butch.)
I get the sense that she had some body issues, and overcame her body issues, and that she thinks trans men have the same body issues and they can overcome them without transition, and they would aggravate them if they transition. I have talked with a cis womon who had similar experiences.
AROOO, however, is just disturbing.

Cmaciain,There are others, like you, who see both positions. Many who accept transwomen as women and also understand why older feminists are transphobic. I loved my grandmother dearly and also know that she was racist until the day she died, and that was not something I could change about her though I told her how I felt when she said things I disagreed with. I’m less tolerant of transphobia in women my age and younger (35), same as I’m less tolerant of racism from my parents or from people their age and younger. The world has changed and I expect people to have changed with it.
There are lots of people who refuse to see any way but their own in all of the camps. I have a lot more sympathy for someone who has been living with a boot on his or her neck not being able to feel for the oppressor. I understand why kathygnome and SkepticalCicada have just had enough already, with straight society’s homophobia and transphobia and not wanting to deal with it from just one more place, especially should-be allies. I understand it from second-wave feminists too, who sadly are seeing transwomen through the wrong lens instead of as allies, but it is still frustrating when anyone refuses to see it through someone else’s eyes.

Perhaps not.Those stated privileges will only be guaranteed so long as she does not transition.  After that there’s no small amount of debate about it.  I do know people who have had, for example, joint tax returns rejected in exactly that post-transition situation, suggesting no small chance of denial of spouse benefits, etc.  HR departments aren’t always going to do so, either, and even if there were no question legally getting that requires undertaking a challenge that requires allowing one’s private life to become public gossip fodder.

Stay out of the gender identity threads.That’s where the anger lives. Years ago I used to try to have reasonable discussions and discovered that it was an impossibility and just made me angry. I’ve never encountered hateful people or attitudes on the land. And yes, there are transwomen who attend, including at least one who introduces herself as a transwoman when she buys her ticket, and has every year for the past several. She carries a large accessory that makes her easily recognizable from a distance. (There are other women I know who self-identify as trans, but she is the only one I am certain has come out at the gate. Others I know of from activist communities or word of mouth.) From what I know, she has a lot of support. She may hear some negative comments from women who do not want transwomen there but she is certainly much safer from violence than she is in an American city – I don’t think anyone here is ignorant of the statistics of violence against transwomen. There is absolutely no history of violent incidents on the land. Arguments are the worst of it. I say this with confidence as a volunteer crew member. I am a low-level, unpaid worker and am not authorized to be a spokeswoman for the festival itself, but from all that I have seen myself and have been told about the festival’s history is that there has been no woman-on-woman (cis or trans) violence on the land.
Those of us who like to talk about camping and other topics use the other forums. They are much more pleasant.

It is not just a music festivalbut an intentional community, that happens to have five days of concerts at its zenith. Many women come for the music, but we also come for much more than that. If you are just looking for music performed by women, I recommend the Lilith Fair.

They have played with a full band.Just a full band of women. Julie Wolf plays keyboards for just about every artist every year, and there are women who play the other instruments as well, even if they are not the musicians the group usually tours with. There are no male musicians. Festival has a crew of roadies for all of the bands, and there are artist support crews, shuttle drivers that pick them up at the airport and their lodgings if they choose to stay in town, and lighting and sound crews. What do the Teamsters have to say if the venue has its own in-house band and employees? Are Amy Ray and Emily Saliers not permitted to play at such a venue?

No, it’s really not.The organization is absolutely and completely devoted to opposition to trans inclusion, trans rights, and even trans existence.
As a worker, I spend two weeks or more on the land every year, and I may have spent an hour total talking about trans inclusion in the past five years.
There is a small minority of women who have extremely nasty things to say and are posting in the gender identity section on the Michfest bulletin board. The section was created because that group of zealots – or the previous group – was taking over the rest of the forums with constant posts about the subject. And constant posts from three transwomen, including one who would post pages of self-hating screed against other transwomen, explaining how she wasn’t really trans because she was an “early transitioner,” but the other two as “late transitioners” didn’t qualify as women and therefore did not deserve to attend, while she did. It was ugly from the beginning.
Most women either support the inclusion of transwomen, don’t care, or just don’t want to deal with it any more. The ones who do support continuing to exclude transwomen for the most part recognize that it is not the reality. Official word is to sell a ticket to and admit any woman who buys one, including women who walk up to the gate and say, “I’m a transwoman and I’d like to buy a ticket” (which happens). There is a small group of women who like to post online. If someone is taking an action such as calling the IRS, that is despicable, but it sounds like that is the work of a single woman. I’m not going to put that on the festival and claim it is responsible for opposing anyone’s rights. The festival has a full-time staff of three women, and what they do is put on a festival, not agitate against anyone’s rights or existence. I’m sorry the event they — and we, since I do volunteer my time every year — put on is not sufficiently inclusive. But that’s different than working to obliterate anyone’s rights.  

Sadly, this is not at all always true

ANY gay event is freeing from sexism and male domination to a point…

Maybe to a point, but there is still plenty of sexism in the gay male community, just like there is still plenty of racism in the LGBT community, etc etc.  Just because a man is gay doesn’t automatically make him not sexist.  If only that were true!  Of course, just because a person is a gay male doesn’t mean he automatically be a sexist either.  But there are times, like during a the MI festival, when it is nice for women to not have to be exposed to the risk of sexist crap.  And yes, sexist crap is still out there in the wider LGBT community.  Sometimes in spades.

PS My penultimate line is not the passive-aggressive “I’m sorry.” Over the past few years my views have changed and I’ve become more in favor of inclusion of transwomen than I used to be. I expect that fest will continue its slide toward inclusiveness rather than an all-at-once announcement. While that may not please anyone, I also think that has the greatest potential to end up in a peaceful place.

thank youmarlene that pretty much describes the situation.  

If you are a manwhy would you want to attend a women’s festival? Regardless of how much you loved something? I understand disavowing the gender binary. Some who still identify with a female part of themselves do attend. Men, trans and cis, are asked to respect that Michfest is a women’s event. I know women who identify both as butch woman/trans boy and feel that Michfest is appropriate and comfortable for them. Everyone has to make her own choice about what is appropriate and respectful. That’s the best I can tell you.

i do think its great that its all in house run and everything..my partner’s mom used to help in the kitchens in the earlier festivals and my partner attended when she was very young in the early 80s.  i too was just curious about what kind of backing bands they have and things.  and i absolutely adore matt chamberlain so i had to say that  

cmaciain,I would like to get in touch with you in private email. Do you have an address or can I give you mine?

Some of the nicest womyn I know wear mullets.I do really like the irony in complaining in the same post about womyn being looksist, and wearing mullets.  

AlsoWe have portapotties and hot showers, but thanks for your concern.

AgreedI believe that all female-identified folks should be allowed to attend Michigan.  I tend to think that fully transitioned, fully male-identified transguys should probably respect the space as female and not be allowed to attend. I know that could be a controversial stance, but I do think it is important for female-identified folks to have some space of their own.
This to me is the reasonable position. MTF trans are women, of course they are “eligible” to attend a Wome/yn’s Festival. FTM men are not wome/yn and should not “test the limits” by attempting to enter.
What is the Camp Trans philosophy on FTMs on The Land?

Really, Tom?Should gay clubs be considered “unfair” since they’re not for straight people?  The principle of having safe spaces is based on a group’s status as being marginalized.  The same applies to women.  No need to boo hoo about the men not being there.
Having said that, I whole-heartedly condemn the transphobia of Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival, of course.  I’m pissed that Chris Pureka will be there, because I absolutely adore her [and The Butchies] and am upset that she wouldn’t think things through enough.  
Those MWMF forums are beyond horrible, by the way.

I get thatbut something about this rubs me the wrong way…especially since very few gay clubs exclude either men or women.

Because they love the music?If they had attended the event because they loved the music in their past as a woman, why would they forgo the chance to go again? And anyway, there are plenty of men who truly enjoy and respect being with women. There are some men who are more comfortable and feel free being friends with women than they do with men. I am very conflicted on this question when it comes up every year. On the one hand, I understand the need for a women’s only space, but does that mean one has to forgo something they’ve loved in the past because they’ve transitioned to another gender? But, I still can’t justify why trans women and trans men cannot attend. It just sounds extremely unfair.

I don’t have time to read through this entire threadBut this is NOT a new issue.  MWMF has had these policies in place for decades.  Other policies over the years have been that no music is allowed that includes male voices, no meat is allowed in the festival (it seems there was also an outbreak of shigella (sp?) about 20 years ago), yada, yada, yada.  
It seems that this is a philosophy that is about to die out with its founders.  Just let it die……

From all comments that was the best by far!!!Funny how of so many comments the VERY FIRST comment was actually the best of all!!!! (in my opinion^^)
The fact that you have got only one other response to your comment, worries me a lot. Especially because there are so many comments here posted. It worries me because I fear that a huge amount of people somehow cannot understand this simple logic one can find in your comment.
As a very young Trans woman myself I feel completely understood by you red7eric, thank you very much <3, xoxo.
To point out for the others to see the best arguments from red7eric´s comment:
“1) Trans women are born women. Autumn, were you not born a woman?  It took some time and some doing to align your body with your true gender, but haven’t you always been a woman?”
“2) How do they know?[...]How do they know that every woman who attends their event meets their definition of “womyn-born-womyn”?” (haha red7eric I just copy and passed so I did not have to type this one word there myself and feel silly hihi ;>)
And this is the trump here, flawless, perfect logic:
“3)[...]But when your argument for a “safe space” excludes those who are more oppressed than you, there’s a whole different dynamic.  People of color sometimes require a safe space of their own; for white people to claim the same thing would sound racist, and with good reason.  Gay people sometimes require a safe space of their own; for straight people to claim the same thing would sound homophobic, and with good reason.  Trans people sometimes require a safe space of their own; for cis people to claim the same thing sounds transphobic, and with good reason.”
PS: I, a Trans woman, have a heart of a maiden^^.

It reeks of male privilege for a particular man to decide that it’s ok for him to attend a women-only event. Again, I’m not talking about people who feel that they don’t fall on either side of the gender binary, and I’m not talking about transwomen excluded from a women’s event. I’m talking about men, cis or trans, who feel that it is their place to disrespect women’s boundaries and attend a women-only event. No matter how much you like the music, no matter how comfortable you are with your female friends, you weren’t invited to the womyn’s music festival, which is not just a music festival but an experiment in intentional community. Even if in practice a transman looks enough like a butch woman and consequently doesn’t have his gender questioned, it doesn’t sound any different than Tom P complaining about men not being invited.
Again, this doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. I’ve known more than one transman who has come, and we are specifically told that it is not our job to police gender. But it’s not respectful of your sisters to crash their party. There is plenty of mixed queer space. This isn’t it. I imagine you’d be a little offended if cis lesbians or transwomen decided to crash the transmen-only camping weekend in western Massachusetts held in late summer every year, no?

I’m not a man, one jewish dykeI’m a lesbian female, born that way. I do not know anything about what trans people go through. I only know what I’ve experienced as a lesbian woman. I’ve tried going into gay bars with my partner only to be given the skank eye and been made so uncomfortable that we had no choice but to leave. Most of the time, there are way more gay bars than lesbian bars, so it’s hard to find a place to chill. The exclusionism I’ve felt in gay male only spaces was absolutely awful. At the same time, I resented straight males crashing lesbian bars with their wide=eyed and curious girl friends. If trans women identify as women, want to be with other women and respect and love other women, I see absolutely no reason to make them feel less than welcome. Ditto with trans men. I’ve seen plenty of lesbian women who look more like men than actual men. They get enough grief in the regular world and they go through nothing but grief trying to use a damn restroom.  

I remember differently, LurleenWhen I was there, late 70′s, through much of the 80′s, garbage detail was a much-sought-after volunteer gig for the womyn attending. The guys’ only job was when they came to pump out the “portajanes.” The truck was preceded by a couple of loud-voiced women shouting, “Men on the Land!” so that those womyn (clothed or otherwise) who didn’t wish to experience the presence of men could move away from the road and the potties (and, btw, the outdoor showers, usually set up near the main collection of “portajanes”).
As a survivor of 12 years of sexual abuse, I took a long time to be able to be around even “safe” men, gay friends. MWMF was a safe place for me to not feel like penises were being shoved at me. I’ve healed a lot. I don’t worry about penises anymore. And at the same time I understand women who’ve been victimized just not wanting to deal with anyone’s penis, whether it is attached to a transgender man or transgender woman. And, unless the festival organizers are going to require everyone to strip and be inspected, there’s no way to make that a “fair” policy. Inherent inequities abound.
I haven’t been back to the festival for many years — in part because all the internal community trash talk (we used to call it “horizontal hostility” — which we directed at other oppressed people with whom we should be allies because it was too dangerous to express it directly to the primary oppressor) was too much to take. For most of the years I went, I just wanted to have a good time, listen to some great music, hang out with women, and be amazed.
You can bruise your hands pounding on the door, demanding to be admitted to the exclusive club, continuing to give this group of “womyn” the power to define or deny womanhood; or you can take your own power as women and create your own spaces the way you’d like to see them. I’d bet that if a group (once upon a time the festival was the “We Want the Music Collective,” not just Lisa Vogel) decided to establish a competing festival with explicitly  inclusive policies, attendance at the separatist festival would continue to shrink.

Some portions of seperatism I understand,( it took awhile to grasp it)I knew many 70′s feminists and a good share were lesbians, quite a few were friends, but they sometimes wanted to be completely away from men, and if someone is your friend, you respect their wishes.
I may not think it’s our finest quality, but I understand the urge.
As a non government financed “CLUB,” these womyn born womyn can make any rules they want.
I think letting the performers know your disappointment in them agreeing by the resticted audience rules, is a good tactic to take, letting the organizers know your disappointment and anger is fine too, but it doesn’t sound like they care.
For me this falls under the catagory of something you are powerless to control or change…so just say “F*CK IT” (the shortened serenity prayer.) And focus your efforts on something you can change. There’s a million things you can have, and a million things you can’t have.

One Jewish Dyke:I want to say to One Jewish Dyke that I’ve appreciated your nuanced responses throughout this discussion.

Another point is it’s a festival which lasts 5 days of an entire yearSo not making those attending, and those excluded enemies, might make the other 360 days in the year, time to discuss coalitions and maybe changing future events, but if both side bitterly and angerly square off, it will poison those 360 days.

I need to listen moreAnd talk less. Thanks Maura.
I have so much to learn.
Keep on plugging away, quietly with your message, and who knows, even I may get it some day.

For several years I chose to live as seperate from straights as I couldI won’t go into what brought me to that point. It was knowing I had a seperate place where I didn’t have to DEAL WITH any straights that was the benefit. I’m pretty sure these womyn also want a space to not deal with men. So confronting that space with something they have to deal with, won’t be welcomed, it negates the whole escape.
Having that space for myself, made it possible the rest of the time when I had to deal with straights…BAREABLE, to be civil in my interactions, even when I felt anything but wanting to be civil, I could just suck it up, and get through it.

It’s about the corporate ownership“There is a small minority of women who have extremely nasty things to say and are posting in the gender identity section on the Michfest bulletin board. The section was created because that group of zealots – or the previous group – was taking over the rest of the forums with constant posts about the subject.”
If a small minority of women were posting similar things about any other group of women, they would be ejected from the boards and told their presence wasn’t welcome at the festival.
This is a corporate decision by the owners of this for profit corporation to create a place to support and nurture hate speech against transpeople.

Emailcmaciain@yahoo.com

I take a differnt tact, obviously.Well, I do take a different tact. Following Roz Kaveney’s six axioms of trans activism, axioms 3, 4, and 6 apply:

3.) Refuse to let journalistic and intellectual attacks on our community go unanswered – we can have and keep the moral high ground.
4.) Be creative, be smart, be ourselves, and don’t let anybody tell us who we are and what we do.
6.) Refuse those politics – heterosexism, body fascism – that work against all of the above, but especially #1.

I’m fighting back at the MWMF’s intellectual attack on the trans subcommunity of the LGBT community; I’m fighting back an attack on trans women like me that tries to inaccurately define who trans women are, and inaccurately depict what trans women do in women’s spaces based solely on the shape of genitalia at birth.
I don’t believe it’s okay to wait until the current crop of leadership at MWMF to dies off to make necessary changes to the festival’s policies. I also don’t believe it’s okay for lesbian and feminist performers to actively participate in segregationist events by entrenched, wrongheaded event leadership — especially in events that discriminate against peer women and peer members of the LGBT community.

fail fail failas long as you think it’s ok to exclude anyone because of their gender, sexuality, or otherwise, then you have no business crying because you are being excluded. if men can be excluded and you are a-ok with that, then you can be excluded. it’s a private event, they get to make the rules. don’t like it? start your own event. but certainly don’t get upset over “segregation” when you are just fine with half the population being excluded.

Well…I don’t think this is really about trans women being excluded from the festival per se, but rather the same old meme of “trans women are really just men,” but with the added insult of having this sort of bigotry being perpetuated by lesbians and feminists, on top of the fact that these well-known feminist artists are performing there, condoning the official trans-exclusion policy. It’s one thing to have John Q. Fundie deny your identity: it’s another to have it come from the people who are supposed to be your allies.
That being said, yes there are some here who would like to participate, and are genuinely angry about not being allowed in officially. Nowadays, I don’t really know how much validity there is to that complaint… at least for someone with sufficient passing privilege.

There is a solutionI’ve read through this thread several times; I’ve pondered and it seems to me there is a solution.  The truth is transwomen aren’t the problem but you can’t win this argument with words.  You have to demonstrate the truth.
I think it starts by accepting the organizers of the festival are not going to change their stance; they’ve repeated it so many times they feel they have to defend it.  Carole Tavris wrote about this Mistakes Were Made . . . (but not by me); she observed that once someone states a position and defends it, they will continually find justifications for that position.  The dynamic at work is easy to miss but what happens is the debate itself fuels their sense of being under attack by trans women – it reinforces their perception that the presence of trans women at the festival would make the space unsafe.  Even pointing out that the defense of the policy is based in bigotry will back fire because the defense against that charge is the notion of safety – if you weren’t born womon you aren’t safe therefore it’s bigotry to want to be admitted.)
I think it’s obvious the felt need for safe space is authentic; the question that cannot be answered with anything resembling rationality is how transwomen would undermine safe space.  To put it another way, in terms of blocking the creation of safe space, transwomen aren’t the problem.
The festival organizers have engaged in dialog for at least ten years with concerned community.  That dialog has been unproductive.  Further discussions would probably be equally unproductive.
It also feels as if the festival’s stance is to not really enforce their own rules – doing so would be a nightmare for them; it would require they take actions that would disrupt the festival itself in profound ways.  It would also create a PR shitstorm of such magnitude they’d never recover.  
It seems obvious to me that the best outcome for everyone is for festival organizers to simply and quietly change their policy – allow transwomen to attend and let it go.  I don’t think that’s going to happen.
So the first step would be a strategic retreat.  No camp trans this year, no demands to allow transwomen to attend.  Just announce that post discussions have been fruitless and you are profoundly disappointed.  The absence of camp trans will simultaneously relieve and discomfort festival organizers.  They literally will not know what to make of it.
Then, without making a fuss, get as many transwomen as possible through the gates.  After the festival is over, make a big deal that there were 300 (or however many) transwomen who participated in the festival.  If at all possible, get photos (here’s us dancing, here’s us serving food, here’s us helping other campers set up their tents).  Here’s the thing – this is no lose – if they kick the transwomen out, they look like the bad guys, if they let you stay they’ve disproved the usefulness of their own policy.
Challenge organizers with the evidence.  We were there, we never created an unsafe space, we never violated the safety of any person.  Then offer to help drafting a new safe space policy.

I don’t really want to get into this, but…I don’t really like the idea of turning the discussion of MWMF’s trans-exclusion into a discussion of the male-exclusion issue, because they are different enough to be discussed separately–says this gay man.
But I do feel compelled to offer one response to Lurleen’s point. When it comes to gender discrimination, we’ve generally moved toward the view that the kind of group-based analysis you’re offering is NOT sufficient to justify excluding everyone of one gender from an opportunity. What I mean is that if you can identify a significant number of gay men who do NOT present the risk of sexism, then using gender to exclude people is too blunt a rule.
Take, for example, the Virginia Military Institute’s exclusion of women. VMI defended the exclusion by saying most women were not physically or psychologically prepared for the rigors of the abusive “adversative” model of discipline that the school uses. Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s response was that as long as there were at least some individual women–even if a small group–who could endure and thrive in the adversative atmosphere, it was impermissible sex discrimination to exclude them. The use of broad and blunt exclusions of one gender or the other aren’t acceptable unless basically everyone with the excluded gender presents the problem. If you can’t say that virtually all men present the risk of sexism at the festival, the blanket exclusion is dubious, it seems to me.
I’m guessing Michigan doesn’t ban gender discrimination at public events, like other states do. But the fact that the law doesn’t ban the gender discrimination doesn’t mean we can’t borrow the same analysis in thinking about whether we personally approve of the blanket gender exclusion in this situation.

I’m not going to change your mind.Nor do I expect to. I understand why you see it differently than I do, and I imagine to be true to yourself you’d have to be against your official exclusion, regardless of what happens in practice.
I would like to point out that rarely does anyone, on any site, track down the people behind words on a bulletin board, unless someone is actually physically threatening another. (I haven’t looked into this IRS threat and whether it is real or posturing.) No one is asked to show ID at the gate. There is no do-not-admit list based on philosophy or bulletin board post. Bad behavior on the land can get you thrown out. Being a transwoman will not, not today. (If anyone wants to bring up 1991, yes, it happened then. It doesn’t happen now. Fortunately we have taken some steps forward.) Introducing yourself as a transwoman to every woman you meet  would not. (To my knowledge, this hasn’t happened.) Threatening or committing an act of violence against any woman, trans or cis, would get you escorted out the front gate. I’m not pretending it’s all happy-trans-ally-land, but there certainly isn’t any violence. If I was made aware of a hair on someone’s head being touched, I myself would walk the perpetrator to the head of the security crew and ask for her removal.

BraveThis woman is incredibly brave for being “out” at the outset of the Festival.  I am not at all surprised to hear that the vast majority of Festival goers–you know, the ones who are financially supporting the event!–embrace her.
It’s so sad that the organizers appear to be part of a vocal and diminishing minority.
When I went to Michigan more than one performer, including Animal from Bitch & Animal, and Eliza Kurt (comedienne) called for inclusion from the stage.
At least the Festival organizers don’t totally inhibit free speech.

Unfortunately…with such a strategy, you will hear the cry of “trans women are raping Michfest by stealth!”  (probably phrased in a much nastier fashion) and it could really undo things for years.  This cry has been losing traction, as trans women are showing their sisterhood steadily, from grounded position.  Let’s not rekindle that.  
The “old guard, implacable” background noise is fading, as the rest of the community is, believe it or not, starting to let us tell our stories ourselves.
I think a better strategy is to keep showing up where we can, do our part, and stand up for ourselves, with fortitude and articulate speech.  The wall doesn’t need to be knocked down, it is being dismantled brick by brick, and the foundation is washing away.
And not give two ***ts what Lisa Vogel, Ron Gold, Ferron, Dirt, or anyone else says about us.  I have not given any of them the right to define my life for me.

Amy Ray sangI hang with the deviants and the tranny nation
They don’t take the names their mama gave them
So I had always counted her as an ally. But then I get that uneasy feeling… because
1. Look how often in lesbian all-womyn space, when they say “trans friendly” it de facto means FTM only need apply.
2. And the term “tranny” is abhorred by many MTF women as the equivalent of “nigger,” while it is more embraced as a self-designation by some FTM men who don’t have the same history of being traumatized by that slur. So whether to read this song by Amy, “Cold Shoulder,” as one more example of the de facto “FTM only need apply,” or am I reading too much into it, I don’t know…
I just don’t know anymore. Indigo Girls being my favorite group of all time. This is so hard for me to process.

In fairness, didnt the trans community hold a separatist eventcalled Southern Comofort that for years excluded post operative trans people? Correct me if I am wrong.

Pam and I have announced on Twitter……That both she and I are going to the Southern Comfort Conference this year.
Lurleen is a definite “maybe” — I hope she makes it too.

The fatal flaw of this strategy…is assuming that you can reason with unreasonable people.

I’m not sure that the vast majority support her.To my knowledge there has been no survey of opinions of attendees or workers. I would say that the vast majority is made up of some combination of women who support her and other transwomen freely attending, women who don’t care one way or the other, and women who don’t really support transwomen attending but are not going to confront anyone and will not be affected, except in their own minds, by transwomen attending. And that’s what it really comes down to – that attitudes need to change. Right now you have women who believe that transwomen are men by virtue of a doctor announcing “it’s a boy” upon birth, rather than by a person’s lived reality of who she says she is and has always been.
The festival organizers do not inhibit free speech. Any woman attending may give a workshop on any topic, including advocating participation by transwomen. Multiple performers have spoken from the stages about inclusion of transwomen. Elvira Kurt gave an entire comedy performance several years ago that was a thinly-veiled satire condemning the exclusion of transwomen, and she has been re-hired to perform and/or MC every year since. This year she has an hour-long set on Night Stage.

The fatal flaw…is in wasting time on unreasonable people at all.  Bending or breaking another persons freewill won’t work.  It wouldn’t work on me, and I pride myself on my reasonability.  If you want to meet a spitfire in person, force me against the wall at one’s own peril.   It only puts people on the defensive, and doesn’t establish common ground.
Isolation, on the other hand, neutralizes.  Likewise, so does getting to know people in neutral venues.
Bitch, for example, does play venues where trans women are welcome.  And she can be gracious.   I wouldn’t be surprised to see her become more and more inclusive, if treated with persistent graciousness. (I love her music, and I would be thrilled to meet her.  If I did, I would like to think she might think, what a cool chica.)
 

Guess I knowwho that leaves to clean the coffeepots!

And……my peers and I wouldn’t be welcome to go see it.

Your Profesorahas been one of the people I have enjoyed the most “meeting” these past few years, though your memories and stories.  Thank you Maura, for helping us learn from her through you…

And I don’t thinkI have ever thanked you for this brilliant post. Being very new to feminism and even newer to understanding my privilege, your points and conclusion rocked me to the core. And I think that even though we are not discussing race with this post, the following is applicable to this discussion:

…women have the obligation be cognizant of and lend themselves to the improvement of the condition of their sisters as part of the improvement of the condition of women as a whole. Healthcare, child care, safety from assault, employment equality all become issues for the entire movement. The agenda is generated from the far reaches of the community through the center to the opposite side, permeating the whole with a co-responsibility for human welfare
There is one defining feature of the group, the divine feminine, esprit feminine or woman’s spirit. To truly function, to truly reflect the nature of women as a whole, the group must be inclusive, must be diverse and must reflect both empathy and advocacy for the entire membership.
It is time to finally part with the fatally flawed structure that has been the model of American feminism and embrace a different, inclusive, co-responsible model, horizontal feminism too and the racial and class distinctions that poison the well of women’s rights.

The point is thatit’s not as though we simply haven’t been making our case in the proper way. There is no case to make. For the ones who are perpetuating the official trans-exclusion policy, their minds up are made up. To them we are really just men, men have no place at the festival, and that’s that.

I believe…that I have been saying that all along.  :-)
Soooooo…I just don’t let them get to me.  But I also think it is important to keep talking to those who will listen.

The Oppression OlympicsI strive to avoid the “oppression olympics” whenever possible, and by that I mean the ranking of oppressed groups by which are the most oppressed.  However, I do not shy away from the simple truth that whenever there is an oppressed group, there must be a privileged group, privileged at the expense of the oppressed.
I am very aware that along gender lines, women are an oppressed group, oppressed because of male privilege.  I am a cisgender male, and would never oppose a group of women seeking a “safe space” for dialogue, community, etc.  But when the same group of women excludes a segment of their own group, a group with significantly less privilege than they, this isn’t a ranking of oppression, but the expression of privilege at the expense of the oppressed, and it’s wrong.

Thanks, MarleneYour point is well taken, Marlene, and completely correct. But we have to understand their “male privilege” ar
Their argument goes deeper, though – not to our experience as women, but to our experience while trying to assimilate in accordance with societal expectations prior to starting transition (this is mostly for later transitioners).
They don’t take into account the fact that the assimilation process is undertaken out of fear, the pre-transition trans woman being outsider who gets a peek into “the world of men,” in a manner similar to that experienced by Norah Vincent during her research for her book “Self Made Man” (and while she stated her experience was not transsexual one, in context she was thinking MBT, not WBT).  Like Norah, we were outsiders looking in.  Unlike Norah, in many cases it took a long time before we worked up enough courage to move forward against the societal expectations.
My personal experience of male privilege was mostly as a “fifth columnist” trying to undermine it from inside.  When I coached youth soccer, at the very first parents’ meeting I made it clear that I did not want only dads as assistant coaches, and I did not want only moms bringing juice and fruit.  One of the moms became an assistant coach and went on to coach her daughter’s team over the next several years.
One thing I always detested was lawyers with a “testosterone problem.”  I was chief counsel for a major title company for a while – and we had a staff that included a good number of women who served as title officers – not lawyers, but with a great deal of knowledge and experience in the field of title insurance.  The number of lawyers who treated them badly when they were trying to help them fix title problems so they could get to closing?  Not a lot, but it happened often enough that when they came in to see me, we’d wryly joke about the “testosterone problem.”  Then I had to call the lawyer and tell him exactly what the female title officer told him, except in a baritone voice.  And invariably, they’d act as if they were eating pearls of wisdom out of my hand.
In my first job after starting RLT, I experienced the same thing from the other side, working on a large commercial loan transaction for a white-shoe law firm in Manhattan doing title review as a contract (temp) lawyer.  A surveyor from Chicago made a mistake on a survey map.  I called to advise we needed the survey corrected.  I got the same frustrating brush-off for being a woman, that my title officers had gotten, just because they were women.  I had to go to the partner in charge of the transaction, a man, explain the problem to him  - and ask him to make the call that I used to have to make.  He did, with the exact same result.
Male privilege exists.  I know that.  And I have had negative experiences of it regardless on which side of the sex/gender barrier I have been on.
Marlene, you point out the existence of female privilege.  It exists, too.  My female relatives used to shoo me out of the kitchen after family holiday dinners.  One of the nicest things after starting transition is that I don;t get shooed out any more.  The first time was Thanksgiving at the apartment of my first cousin once removed (the son of my first cousin Tina), who had gotten married a few months earlier.  Present were his mother my cousin, his mother in law, and me, among others.  But it was the three of us who shooed everyone else out of the kitchen after dinner, so we could do the dishes and just talk while they watched television.  As someone who spent much of my life being shooed away, the acceptance and inclusion was very affirming.  I am sure that there are many out there who might see “doing the dishes” as anything but a privilege, but in the family and cultural context in my life, this has been an enforced “women’s space” at family gatherings.  

Thank you, Joann.I’m always trying to explain the “other side,” regardless of what someone’s position is vis-à-vis the inclusion of trans women at Michfest. This is a great summary of why some cis women think that trans women have male privilege, but I especially appreciate that it comes from a trans woman, and not one who is writing from a place of self-hatred. (That’s my take on it – obviously I don’t know you.) It appears to come from a place of strength and compassion and empathy and experience. It doesn’t sound to me like you agree with your exclusion, just that you understand how insidious and pervasive male privilege is, and what it means to have it and lose it. It’s not something you get to turn down because you know that you that you were misclassified at birth, but it’s also something taken away from you if you don’t play by the gender rules.
I’m not sure that I could easily link to a single response to this post – may I use your words, credited to you, in the future? I don’t have any particular intention for them at the moment. Certainly not on the Michfest board – I haven’t argued in the gender identity threads there in years as I found it both unproductive and soul-crushing to read so much hatred. All it did was harden my views, and it wasn’t until I’d been away from those kinds of discussions for a few years that I was able to hear the women and not just the words. Yours are words that I wish I could share with others, if they will listen.

Thanks!Thanks for being an ally, OJD! We need more of you out there.
Sadly, there have been those who’ve supported inclusion have been escorted off the land for their “blasphemy”.
To touch on a little of what Joann said, the Second Wavers who’ve slung those slurs about MtFs being mockery of women need to realize some basic facts.
In the early days of transsexualism, all of the psychologists involved were men. They were the gatekeepers of what behaviour was “appropriate”, not to mention our orientation and employment.
This meant after transition, we couldn’t have any job other than what was “traditional”. This meant nursing for doctors, clerk or paralegals for lawyers, or secretarial/receptionist for all others no matter their education.
Clothing was also part of the gateway: it was nothing but skirts, dresses and blouses, and makeup was mandatory!
Even the looks of the transwoman was scrutinized! In my research, I  learned there was a psychologist (who remained nameless) who said that if he didn’t get an erection while looking at her, she didn’t get the final okay for surgery!
It’s too bad that neanderthals like Vogel and her ilk can’t get past the fact that our history is just as much a victim of patriarchy as every other woman in society!

I did meet BitchA couple of years back, she was booked to play at a local bar. Unfortunately, it was during Fall Break I think and the campus was literally deserted, thus it was a major loss for her group to play to a nearly empty room. It also didn’t help that the gig was very late at night.
But Bitch was very nice to us as we debated, and she couldn’t be a nicer person.

Undercutting effortsDid you notice at all that Amy Ray interviewed the folks at Camp Trans as well?
Seriously, this piece is simply ill-informed. I think you should’ve contacted some folks at Camp Trans.
Trans women go to Michfest despite the policy, and do so openly.
And this is totally undercutting the efforts of trans women and cis allies that have been changing things from the inside.
http://www.indigogirls.com/cor…
http://www.camp-trans.org/ I suggest reading the forums as well as the history.
http://community.livejournal.c…
Totally erasing cisgender allies and calling them transphobic really does not help.

No Camp Trans?What? I think you better check with the Camp Trans folks before you talk about canceling their event.