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crossposted on Holy Bullies and Headless Monsters
Gary Glenn of the American Family Association of Michigan became another voice (after that of American Family Association's Bryan Fischer and Family Research Council's Peter Sprigg) for “criminalizing homosexual acts:”
“The short answer to your question is yes, we believe that states should be free to regulate and prohibit behavior that’s a violation of community standards and a proven threat to public health and safety — including, as most of the United States did throughout its history, homosexual behavior.”
I'm a little disappointed that Glenn wasn't pressed by the Michigan Messenger about how being gay is a “proven threat to public health and safety.” We all know that statement as a Paul Cameron talking point and it would have been interesting to see Glenn weasel his way out of explaining the Cameronesque connection to his statement.
People for the American Way makes it a point to inform everyone of the following hypocrisy in Glenn's stance:
It should also be pointed out that Glenn is among the plantiffs in the Thomas More Law Center's lawsuit challenging the Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2009 on the grounds that protection for gays is part of an effort to “criminalize the Bible and use the threat of federal prosecutions and long jail sentences to silence Christians from expressing their Biblically-based religious belief that homosexual conduct is a sin.”
So Glenn, while pursuing a claiming a phony case of persecution is pushing for actual persecution.
His statement makes me more anxious about the upcoming conference on “homosexuality” next week at Liberty University. I don't think we've heard the last of this entire “let's criminalize homosexual acts” nonsense.
Maybe I'm being overly paranoid but if Colorado in 1992 and the Proposition 8 vote in 2008 taught me anything, it's never take any religious right attempt as lightweight and nonsensical.
UPDATE – Glenn didn't appreciate what I wrote so he took it upon himself to debate me point by point. The entire discussion is on my blog. But here is just a small portion. To summarize it, Glenn lists reasons why “homosexual behavior” should be outlawed, but his reasonings are either studies taken out of context or work which specifically places the blame on homophobia for the health issues in gay men (of course Glenn omits the lesbian community).
Glenn:
Hi Al,
Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm happy to directly address precisely what I mean when I said that homosexual behavior is proven to be a threat to public health and safety.
I was referring to the dramatically increased incidence of mental illness, substance abuse, eating disorders, STDs, life-threatening diseases such as AIDS, cancer, and hepatitis, and premature death by up to 20 years among individuals who engage in homosexual behavior.
My sources for the references above would be the Journal of the American Medical Association, Oxford University's International Journal of Epidemiology, the Centers for Disease Control, the Lesbian and Gay Medical Association, the (homosexual) Canadian Rainbow Health Coalition, the Canadiam Medical Association Journal, etc., etc. — none of whose researchers, far as I know, are named Cameron.
I was also referring to “Life in the Bushes,” the propensity of an apparently sizeable segment of individuals who engage in homosexual behavior to engage in multiple on-the-spot anonymous sexual encounters in city parks, highway rest stops, public rest rooms, “gay” bookstores, etc. — a practice advertised and promoted any any number of “gay” websites.
For example, as the Royal Oak (Mi.) Daily Tribune reported March 23, 2000, regarding a police raid on one such location:
“(Hazel Park City Manager Joseph) Young also said the Oakland County Health Department had been called to check the business after suspected 'bodily fluids' had been found there. 'Essentially it revolves around conditions existing in the building that we feel make it unsafe,' said (Hazel Park Police Chief David) Niedermeier.”
Or as the Detroit Free Press reported March 24, 2000:
“Investigators said gay sexual activity was common at seven of the adult bookstores raided Wednesday. The seven bookstores had so-called buddy booths, which let patrons masturbate while watching one another, said Ypsilanti Police Det. Sgt. Craig Annas. Some of the booths had portals that allowed sexual activities to take place between partners in different booths, Annas said. 'The result is that male semen gets all around these rooms,' endangering the public through possible exposure to infected bodily fluids, he said. …But Jeff Montgomery, executive director of Detroit-based Triangle Foundation, a gay-and-lesbian-rights group, defended the bookstores and said the raids were politically motivated harassment of gays.”
Or as openly lesbian Detroit News columnist Deb Price commented regarding such public health-threatening activity in her weekly homosexual advocacy column:
“The Los Angeles County Health Services found half of HIV-positive men were having sex in public places without telling their sex partners of their status and often not using condoms.”
That's what I was referring to, Al, when I said homosexual behavior and the homosexual lifestyle are a “proven threat to public health and safety.”
No weaseling or Camorenesque talking points required.
Me:
Actually Mr. Glenn, while you didn't refer to Cameron per se, you did use his distortive (sp) techniques. For example:
You mentioned the so-called short life span of gay men. Now if I am not incorrect, you got that citation from the Oxford University's International Journal of Epidemiology. And you are referring to a 1997 study done by Canadian researchers. What you omitted was the fact that in 2001, those same researchers went on record complaining about how their work was being distorted by people like yourself .
Now in your other examples, you mentioned incidents having to do with such things as substance abuse, eating disorders, STDs, and mental illness. HOWEVER, you make a inaccurate implication that these things are indicative of the lgbt orientation.
None of the journals you cited have EVER said that those behaviors are indicative of the lgbt orientation. Legitimate health organizations and researchers have actually blamed the effects of lgbts having to deal with being stigmatized in an unaccepting society for these negative behaviors.
For example, the American Cancer Society says the following regarding cancer:
“Some of the risk factors for the GLBT population include lack of insurance policies covering unmarried partners, which makes it harder
to access quality health care. Also, fear or past experience of discrimination by health care providers may cause some men and women to ignore recommended screenings for such things as colon, breast, and prostate cancer. This may prevent cancers from being detected early, when they are much easier to treat. “Regarding AIDS, the Centers for Disease Control have said the following :
“To avoid social isolation, discrimination, or verbal or physical abuse, many men who have sex with men (MSM), especially young and minority MSM, do not disclose their sexual orientation (1–3). Young MSM who do not disclose their sexual orientation (nondisclosers) are thought to be at particularly high risk for human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection because of low self-esteem, depression, or lack of peer support and prevention services that are available to MSM who are more open about their sexuality (disclosers).”
Regarding substance abuse, this is what was said :
“A study by Dr. Michael P. Marshal of the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center revealed that LGBT teens are 190 percent more likely to use drugs and alcohol than are heterosexual teens, and that the usage rate is even higher among certain subgroups. . . .
“Homophobia, discrimination and victimization are largely what are responsible for these substance use disparities in young gay people.”
The sad thing is that you actually pervert the mission of the journals you mention for your own nasty purposes. It's similar to a racist taking journals dealing with African-American health to claim that blacks are abnormal or inferior.
What we are talking about here is stigmatizing gays – which by the way, plays a huge deal in the other examples you mentioned regarding some gay men's dangerous sexual exploits. Gay men who don't accept themselves are most likely to engage in dangerous sexual behavior. If you don't believe me, please consult Ted Haggard.
Mr. Glenn, I enjoyed this talk because it is so rare that someone from your side of this so-called culture battle will take the time to put his ignorance and homophobia on display for us lgbts to break down.
If your attempt was to prove your point regarding why “homosexual behavior” should be criminalized, you failed miserably. But if you were making the case to outlaw homophobia rather than “homosexual behavior,” I think you make an excellent case.
27 Comments
Love to see the caliber of Olsen and Boies on that lawsuit!Where are all the statistics on all those arrests and jail sentences for pastors who speak out on divorce, adultery or premarital sex?
What I would love to see is a hardline, rock-solid, Bible-based unimpeachable pastor or religious figure come out and say “I absolutely disapprove of gay sex and relationships, and I truly believe God disapproves of them, too. But I want the choice to accept that to be completely free and inspired by the Holy Spirit, not the law. I support absolute equality for all gay and lesbian people, and will fight tirelessly for that. Once everyone is free and equal, I hope that gay and lesbian people will see the error of their ways and choose otherwise.”
I would still disagree with their underlying assumptions, but I would certainly cheer on their efforts.
After all, Step 1, stop throwing stones. Step 2 admonish the sinner. They need to follow their own damn rules.
“a proven threat to public health and safety”Fine – religion is hereby outlawed.
The nation just became infinitely safer.
I still think the klan is behind this whole thing.“The short answer to your question is yes, we believe that states should be free to regulate and prohibit behavior that’s a violation of community standards and a proven threat to public health and safety – including, as most of the United States did throughout its history, homosexual behavior.”
The problem I keep having is…well, its complex.
I grew up in the segregated south in a typical southern white middle class family. I went to a white middle class school and a white middle class church. I grew up hearing conversations …. Very racist conversations of a klanish nature.
Now days I keep hearing the old invective, arguments and even bible verses being troted out. They have even picked up the ‘states rights’ saw that put us in a civil war.
I really feel that they’re using this campain against GLBT rights to try to bring in arguments to bar civil rights for all minorities.
Think about it. I know that the klan has been spotted before in the shadows lurking. Just listen to the invective used, if your familiar with klan talk you’ll see that its either mimicking or verbatium of klan policies.
Just think about it.
I live in Seattle, where Glenn’s brand of Christianity…… is “a violation of community standards and a proven threat to public health and safety.” Therefore, he would heartily approve if the Seattle City Council passed an ordinance criminalizing the American Family Association, right?
The sad thing ispeople buy these bigoted talking points, folks. My cousin is an example of this, I’ve heard him rail on and on about how gay people have a tendency to get physically and mentally sick) They really do.
He even had the temerity to think of using the sickness of of the partner of a lesbian coworker as an opportunity to evangelize…and then had the temerity to tell me this.
Again, GLADD really needs someone to handle responses to these types of attacks. Alvin you and the crew at Box Turtle Bulletin especially do a great job with this type of bigotry and lies but it still all has…an underground feel to it.
Althoughit does have a Klanish nature to the talking points, its much more terrifying. Cons have pushed this “state’s rights” talking point on to the masses and too many people believe it,without any knowledge of the problems it has caused in the past.
We now have ‘average’ citizens spewing the destruction of federal law. Cons discovered that they can’t run a national government well, so like a upset child they want to break it so no one else can play with it. They want independent states and a federal government that only provides military spending and tax breaks for corporations.
the Klan these days has far too many neo-nazi type people. They don’t seem to have the ability to use anything subtle, instead scream and make threats of violence.
(Possible vision of the future, if cons get 100% of what they want: Pam’s House Blend, now includes a list of which states offer any protections for the LGBT community and a list of areas that openly segregate minorities because there are no federal protections.)
Making something against the law will not stop itAll of our laws prove this. “Thou shalt not kill” and look at us. Exactly how will “criminalizing homosexual acts” stop anyone from having gay sex? It won’t but that’s not the point. They just want to be able to throw us in jail where we don’t have any power or rights. Bottom line.
I’m with youWhere is the MSM response – like Alvin’s here – from our donation-supported mainstream LGBT organizations (no names, please) to this sort of outright viciousness and stupidity? Too busy organizing another fundraiser to deal with this? Anybody?
These buybullthumpers need to be taken out of the equation — permanently.
Public Gay SexOne thing Mr. Glenn fails to mention is the fact that MOST men busted in public gay sex stings are in fact MARRIED men, living heterosexual lives and with children in most cases.
Gay men are a little bit smarter than that, they know how to use hookup sites.
Locking Up Their OwnThese people run their mouths about wanting to jail homosexuals, but then they’ll have to risk being called a hypocrite when one of their own is caught getting up to teh homosex (like Ted Haggard and many more “hetero christian” men).
They can’t make exceptions to the rule: either they’re ALL criminals or they’re NOT. And most definitely NOT when one of these people wanting gays jailed is caught doing the exact same thing they’re condemning – and as we’ve learned throughout history, most people who want evil done to gay people are closeted homos themselves. Not to mention they’re much sleazier than the accusations they go pointing out about gay people.
Don’t you know?These holy man of God are exempt from earthly laws — even following their own Commandments!
Just like the priests caught abusing children, they’re sent off to some location so they may “repent” of their actions, and move on to another parish, men like Haggard are sent to an “ex-gay” retreat in order to reclaim their natural heterosexuality.
“Don’t push gay men into the shadows, then blame them for being in the dark”That was a quote from a VA prosecuter in a Nightline series many years ago. The series was aired, I think, around 2001 or 2002, as a direct response to the Roanoke gay bar shootings. They had this prosecutor on who had been married and closeted and convicting men of cruising parks and rest areas when he was doing the same thing. I thought the quote was perfect.
HmmmmmAnd yet, this past weekend while watching late night TV I was constantly bombarded by advertisements for Girls Gone Wild videos. Who is buying these?
The one and ONLY point that he has going for him…is the question of eating disorders. I think that its been found that gay men have a higher propensity of eating disorders than their straight counterparts. That has nothing to do with outside social persecution and everything to do with a seriously dysfunctional community when it comes to body image.
Everything else he wrote is nonsense. Plus, I LOVE that Lesbians are ALWAYS omitted from these screeds. These folks have a pathological obsession with gay men.
I commented on Holy Bullies in response to Glenn’s answers……but, after thought, “Al”? Does he know Alvin? Does he know whether he prefers the name “Al” over Alvin, or that he wouldn’t prefer being addressed as Mr. McEwen?
This may seem small, but do you imagine he would address anyone on his ill-informed side of the debate in such a manner? This only further smacks of his disrespect towards our side, whereas you can see that “Al” didn’t afford him the same discourtesy.
I agreeI knew Gary Glenn was full of shit, but I didn’t know the specific citations to back up any kind of rebuttal.
It would be nice to be able to get a lot of this fact checking of anti-gay disinformation out into the mainstream. Too often, I see these lies quoted in the mainstream media with a simple “he said, she said” attribution, treated as if they’re valid opinions.
Negro, pleaseSocietal homophobia generates stress. Too much stress can generate eating disorders.
I’m not discounting the internal circumstances within the gay male community as far as eating disorders are concerned but when I went through it in my early 20′s it had nothing to do “body image” with the community.
How easy and flippant and typical of you…
Sapphism was legal in the UKsince Queen Victoria was convinced it did not exist in England and the male members of parliament were convinced that most women were unaware of its exisstence (Despite Maud allen and others, and the “Cult of the Clitoris” libel trial
Outlaw divorceisn’t that the greatest danger to both children and the family?
Let me step back…About 10 months after I moved here I got into my one and only relationship with someone on the DL (or so he thought).
There was a lot of sick dynamics in that relationship, with the fact that he was on the DL to all but his immediate family(and my need to occasionally hide my sexuality when we were out).
For a lot of reasons besides what I am talking about here (i.e. domestic violence), I began to lose weight; I lost 30 pounds in a month, I had no appetite, etc.
The weight loss was so sudden and so noticeable that E. asked me to go get an HIV test (full disclosure: I wasn’t testing on a regular basis at that time). I was pretty certain that I would test positive.
No one was more shocked than me that I tested negative.
Based on the severe and rapid loss of appetite and weight that I told the HIV counselor at the time, the counselor and I had a talk. And it boiled down to the relationship dynamics of that time. Some of which was grounded in societal homophobia. (“what will they think of me”?)
So it’s not all intracommunity dynamics. At least that wasn’t my case and, I suspect, that’s not true in a lot of cases of eating disorders.
Crimeny, the arguments I had with my “Ron Paul for Prez” bro-in-law about “states rights”He is older than I am and (in theory) at least as well educated. He is vehemently secular and pro-choice, and a strong supporter of equal rights for all. And yet I had to keep reminding him during the 2008 election season, over and over, that “states rights” has always been used to mean pro-slavery, pro-theocracy, anti-choice and anti-civil rights. He just could not get the concept.
It really boggles the mind.
Not to mention, many are happily monogamousIn any case, you are right: openly gay men have other, much safer venues where they can seek sexual partners. The men who troll public restrooms (Senator Larry Craig) and parks (Florida Rep. Bob Allen, state chairman of McCain’s presidential campaign), resort to “hired help” (evangelist Ted Haggard) or approach underaged boys (Rep. Mark Foley) are almost always ostensibly and ostentatiously “straight.”
All the same groups who claimed EDNA would “criminalize Christianity”Just goes to show, it’s always about projection with them – they were trying to say we’d use that law to throw them in jail – because that’s what they’d do to us in a heartbeat
thank you.
It’s time to criminalise some of what the Christians doand get them off of the streets to make america a safer place
The Atlanta bomber was not a Pagan Lesbian
Dr Tiller was not murdered by a secular bi man
Isn’t he the eminent epidemiologistbecause, of course, every man of god(s) is qualified to go through the scientific outcomes of a study and determine what the implications are…
I’ve been wasting my time employing scientific experts in courst to explain the meaning of such things; I could have dropped a few in a collection plate and gotten myself a Hired Cross(like a hired gun, but infallible)