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Okay, perhaps I’m being a killjoy here (as I know I’m often accused of being oversensitive), but I’m trying to “get” the “hermaphrodite” joke here. On Saturday, February 6, 2010, NPR’s Wait Wait…Don’t Tell Me!‘s segment Who’s Carl This Time?, the show had a question regarding congressional statements on repealing Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. The approximately 1:45 minute section of the audio has about a 30-second bit on what Rep. Duncan D. Hunter’s statements regarding “transgenders and hermaphrodites” being able to serve openly if the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy is repealed:
Peter Sagal (Show Host): Duncan Hunter: He’s a Republican Congressman and military veteran, He went on All Things Considered and he said…
Well, if you let the gays in, then you’ll have to let in the quote ‘transgenders and hermaphrodites.’ Unquote.”Carl Kasell: Huh.
Peter Sagal: He said that. He was worried about the hermaphrodites. He doesn’t understand that hermaphrodites would be a tactical asset: They can pursue enemies into both men’s and women’s restrooms.
Adam Felber: That’s true. Yeah.
Julia Sweeney: Then maybe…
Peter Sagal: The Taliban would have no place to hide.
Adam Felber: I don’t think we have any laws on the books preventing hermaphrodites from serving in our military, do we?
Peter Sagal: Well…he’s afraid that they will figure that out.
Mo Rocca: They fall under the Don’t Ask, Can’t Tell policy.
Julia Sweeney: *Laughs*
What I don’t like about this bit is fourfold. To begin with, i understand the quoting Rep. Hunter using the term “hermaphrodite,” but I don’t understand repeating the term when the North American Intersex Society had identified hermaphrodite as a term to avoid:
The words “hermaphrodite” and “pseudo-hermaphrodite” are stigmatizing and misleading words. Unfortunately, some medical personnel still use them to refer to people with certain intersex conditions, because they still subscribe to an outdated nomenclature that uses gonadal anatomy as the basis of sex classification. In a paper titled Changing the Nomenclature/Taxonomy for Intersex: A Scientific and Clinical Rationale, five ISNA-associated experts recommend that all terms based on the root “hermaphrodite” be abandoned because they are scientifically specious and clinically problematic. The terms fail to reflect modern scientific understandings of intersex conditions, confuse clinicians, harm patients, and panic parents. We think it is much better for everyone involved when specific condition names are used in medical research and practice.…One more thing: While some intersex people seek to reclaim the word “hermaphrodite” with pride to reference themselves (much like the words “dyke” and “queer” have been reclaimed by LBGT people), we’ve learned over the years it is best generally avoided, since the political subtlety is lost on a lot of people.
So, media stylebooks generally take the tack of indicating reporters should only directly quote derogatory or problematic terminology, but otherwise these derogatory or problematic terms should be avoided. I personally believe the reporters and comedians on Wait, Wait…Don’t Tell Me! went beyond just quoting terms the INSA identified as potentially stigmatizing. Certainly Rep. Hunter initially used the phrase “transgenders and hermaphrodites” specifically to stigmatize transgender and intersex people.
Secondly, I don’t appreciate how that joke about the bathrooms intersexed people follows the Bathroom Meme. There has been much use of this Bathroom Meme — that transsexual women, as well as other transgender people presenting as women, are potential bathroom predators — in arguing against basic civil rights not just for trans people of all stripes, but also against basic civil rights for lesbian, gay, and bisexual people.
By the way, does anyone remember this radio ad by Focus On The Family which talks about bathroom predators?
Using the Bathroom Meme in a segement regarding intersexed people seems to me to be making intersex people as a public bathroom suspect class — in a similar manner as trans people have been defined by the religious right as a public bathroom suspect class.
Thirdly, the Taliban reference. The host, the reporters, and comedians may think it’s funny to link transgender and/or intersex people with terrorism, but this is actually serious subject matter. From a 2004 DHS Advisory to Security Personnel:
Previous attacks underscore Al-Qaeda’s ability to employ suicide bombers – a tactic which can be used against soft targets and VIP’s. Terrorists will employ novel methods to artfully conceal suicide devices. Male bombers may dress as females in order to discourage scrutiny. Al-Qaeda operative Richard Reid employed a novel and unique “shoe bomb” device in an attempt to destroy a transcontinental airliner in December 2001.
I would argue transsexual women, other transgender women, and intersexed people of all stripes aren’t anymore likely to be terrorists than other people in the general public, so it matters when gender expression is tied into terrorism — even in a joke.
Lastly, the “Don’t Ask, Can’t Tell” comment. There is an assumption that intersex people are gender confused because of genetics, ambiguous genitalia, or other biological factors. I would argue that just as transsexuals aren’t gender confused about their gender identities, neither are intersexed people.
Gender confusion, as well as bathroom predation, are terminology and arguments by the religious right to stigmatize people for sex and gender variance; it’s a way that has been used against intersex, transsexual, and other transgender people to be portrayed as less than fully human.
It would seem that NPR‘s Wait, Wait…Don’t Tell Me! mocking of intersex people wasn’t done based not upon the behaviors or character of intersex people as a group or community, but due to the human conditions of intersex people. We wouldn’t find it acceptable to mock African-Americans for the color of their skin; we wouldn’t find it acceptable to mock physically disabled people for their disabilities; we wouldn’t find it acceptable to mock women for being women — so why would the host, reporters, and comedians on Wait, Wait…Don’t Tell Me find it acceptable to mock intersexed people for being intersexed?
I know I’d like to know.
~~~~~
Related:
* Rep. Duncan Hunter’s Concern With DADT Includes “Hermaphrodites” And “Transgenders”
29 Comments
just from reading the transcript,i think they were actually showing how absurd the whole comment by hunter was, and how absurd the bathroom meme is. however, i do think the “Don’t Ask, Can’t Tell” comment at the end is going too far in the vein of ‘look how clever i can be at someone else’s expense’.
interesting to note…that Julia Sweeney played “Pat” on Saturday Night Live – make of that what you will.
WWDTM is one of my favorite NPR shows, but this isn’t their brightest moment.
Huge fan of your blog. Share items all the time. You’re definitely overboard here.Try listening to Wait, Wait Don’t Tell Me without the lens sometime. You’ll find that they take small, generally harmless potshots at every group, most particularly at themselves.
I’m a casual listener for Wait Wait, and an avid reader of this blog (read the blog more often than I listen to the show).
Let’s address this. The group as a whole were supporting the idea of hermaphrodites (by whatever terminology is used, your post didn’t actually leave a clear understanding of what term should be used btw. I’m confused and had NO idea that hermaphrodite was in any way derogatory and I’m much more educated in sexual politics than the vast majority of folks out there) serving in the military, though they chose to express this through humor (which may or may not have been poorly constructed humor).
They were ABSOLUTELY NOT comparing the “intersexed(?)” to terrorists. Here you are throwing around an accusation that is simply untrue and VERY unfair. They were advocating for the…
(wow I’m really struggling here on the terminology…intersex if that is the correct term is a terrible one. It is very awkward gramatically and frankly, a nonsense word. If that is the correct term I will gladly use it in the future, please clear this up for me. From here out I will use the term hermaphrodite, but please beclear that I do not intend it in any way as a derogatory term and though above you quote a journal as saying this term is no longer acceptable in clinical use, that is the manner in which I am using it.)
They were advocating for the hermaphroditic to be given free-reign in the military and participate in the capture of terrorists (however tasteless the stupid bathroom joke may have been). Don’t accuse where accusation is not warrented, it destroys your entire argument.
As for the bathroom policy, let’s fact facts. People are mostly uneducated about transgendered people. There is no way in looking at someone to determine sexual nature/orientation/identification. That makes an awful lot of people uncomfortable, particularly in situations where they feel sexually vulnerable (where genitalia is exposed). Where sexual orientation is concerned, the sexually ambiguous are particularly uncomfortable, which is why the “bathroom” argument is one that resonates so well with the ignorant.
Was it a tasteless joke? Sure. Will it serve to further the cause of those who are bigoted? No. Will it educate anyone to the degradation that is thrust upon hermaphrodites? Absolutely not.
But the larger, more important point that was being made was that our military is made worse by the exclusion of those who wish to serve. This was clearly what the underlying message was, even through the poor attempt at humor.
Second Lurleen.I think this is really skewering Hunter’s opinions. I actually think this is much better executed satire than other recent news items I have commented on. But I do agree, Lurleen, that the final comment there is perhaps a bit too far.
That being said, Autumn, I can definitely see why this would rub you the wrong way. I can see it both ways.
SorrySorry, but I LOL’d.
Right.Since They didn’t call transsexuals or other transgender people “trannies” in this segment, or refer to gays and lesbians as homosexuals — well, it was another group we don’t care much about that had a that had a term that’s been identified as stigmatizing utilized against them.
As long as it’s another group besides gay, lesbian, bisexual, or trans community members who are on the receiving end of a stigmatizing term directed at them, I guess we don’t have to be sensitive at all…we can laugh out loud without any guilt whatsoever, right?
They negated their point to mock Hunter.I am a fan of the show as well and listen regularly however, this segment made me cringe. It was more than the words, it was the tone and the laughter about being intersexed and by inference, being transgender, that stung. I know that these folks are generally supportive of liberal causes and were clearly trying to mock Hunter but what they did instead was to focus on his targeted groups for more verbal abuse. They fostered the idea that it is funny to mock intersexed people. That action overshadowed any criticism of Hunter.
I agree that they take potshots at many people but to take a potshot at the physical nature of a group of people already being dissed was beneath them.
this.Also, I’d bet my lunch money that no one involved with that segment has ever heard of the North American Intersex Society.
Heck, before today, I hadn’t either.
That said, I listen to this show on a semi-regular basis, and have gotten the distinct impression that it is unscripted improv related to news, rather than actual reportage. Media stylebooks are thus not relevant to discussions of propriety here.
While thoughtless, I don’t believe the comments were made with malicious intent. Intent aside, they are definitely humor at the expense of another. Worse, they’re humor at the expense of the intrinsic characteristics of another.
If anything, this is a sign of exactly the sort of knowledge gap that otherwise educated people have when it comes to transgender and intersex. I used to be in the same boat, not too long ago, but through some wonderfully understanding people who were willing to forgive my ignorance, I was able to correct my own deficiency. Let’s turn this into a teachable moment. I believe the folks at NPR are reasonable, and not given to irrational prejudice when given the knowledge to counteract it.
So, that said, by all means write letters. Just write them from a position of knowledge, and not from the hurt that the ignorance caused.
The laugh that puzzled mewas the one at the end by Julia Sweeney. Since she made her splash playing Pat, the gender-ambiguous character, I was surprised when I read the transcript. Although, I’ve laughed at inappropriate times sometimes myself sometimes when I was already primed to laugh and then taken off guard by an off statement or a statement I didn’t register until a few beats later.
huh, maybe you’re rightabout the “can’t tell” comment. i still think it was in very poor taste though, because the Pat character was from 20 years ago and therefore many people won’t get the joke as we think it may have been intended, and will only hear laughing at what seems like a rag on intersex people.
Educate first – thenMore than once, NPR has shown a distinct lack of understanding of Trans and intersex issues. My preferred choice is to educate – politely, intelligently and with a sense of grace when confronted with situations like this. But I am also fully prepared to vote with my wallet when they want my money if real change does not happen
I suppose some find Don Rickles not to be humoroustho I think he is a hoot.
I will have to remember to mention to my surgeon before srs not to sew up my sphincter, as I wish to keep my sense of humor.
Well, that’s my take too.I like the show as well — it’s usually a very witty show. And, they appropriately make fun of individuals for their behavior or their character all the time. They even make fun of groups appropriately — when groups engage in group behavior.
It’s when one paints groups with a broad brush without clear and specific impetus related to behavior or character, or when one uses defamatory, derogatory, stigmatizing, or problematic terminology to refer to groups or communities that I take issue. That seems especially true to me when it’s humor based upon the immutable conditions that are the accident of birth or life experience that they’re being mocked. I strongly believe that crosses a line.
The show participants on Wait, Wait…Don’t Tell Me! ended up making fun of a group of people, using stigmatizing terminology, based on the characteristics of a number of the group members, instead of the behavior or character of these same people.
There’s a difference in the kind of humor being expressed in mocking people for their characteristics, and in mocking them for their behavior and/or character. I know I felt a need to highlight the difference between the types of humor because I find one of these kinds of humor to be completely wrongheaded — and that’s making people because of their characteristics.
NPR was educated, as an organization, after……the Caster Semenya story of last year. Caster was an interesed runner from South Africa, and she was repeatedly — and inappropriately — referred to in the media as a “hermaphrodite.”
NPR, as an organization, has been educated on the difference between “hermaphrodite” and intersex, and as an organization knew which of the terms is less stigmatizing.
They also deal a lot with identity communities, and should know the difference of what kinds of humor are appropriate and inappropriate regarding identitiy communities.
Obviously, not everyone at NPR “got the memo” on the less stigmatizing terminology to be used to describe intersexed people.
Intersexed, not “intersesed” D’oh!
I wish I had a nickel for every……ignorant statement I’ve heard from supposedly enlightened people regarding LGBT and intersex persons. Hell, I’d be a very wealthy man from the ignorance spewed about transgendered persons alone.
It hurts much, much more when it comes from someone whom one would think is liberal, educated, or enlightened in some way.
About the only way I can keep it in perspective is to realize that I was simply born too soon. One day, people will look back on this time as they do now with slavery, or child-labor, or public lapidations and recoil in horror at the brutality that was on display on a daily basis.
It is as if the collective human mind suffers from a form of powerful inertia, but it is beginning to move. Also, I have to think that this same inertia tends to keep things moving forward once they are set in motion.
I don’t get itwhy is the term “hermaphrodite” derogatory? I’m yet another ignorant “thought I was fluent with appropriate sexual terminology” person who thought that term was perfectly neutral….like, a scientific term…. The Wiki page on the word also doesn’t seem to talk about WHY its offensive, just that another term is now preferred. Enlightenment?
From GLADD Media GuidePROBLEMATIC: “hermaphrodite”
PREFERRED: “intersex person”
The word “hermaphrodite” is an outdated, stigmatizing and misleading word, usually used to sensationalize intersex people.
My comment. the term is mostly used now in adult movies now.
In other cases in the animal kingdom…. a true HEMAPHRODITEIs able to propogate with themselves. So using it in human terminology refers to this I believe.
WellWhy is the word “negro” wrong?
Same reason.
Or at least similar enough that I felt comfortable making the analogy.
Why don’t you let actualintersexed people decide if they are offended?
As someone who was actually born a “true hermaphrodite” (tetragametic chimera) I find telling others based on some organization’s say so, known for denying people like me even existed, highly problematic. I am assuming you are talking about Cheryl Chases ISNA, since as far as I know there is no NAIS and never was and ISNA is widely viewed in intersexed circles as a fraud and associated with such delightful people as “experts” as Mike Bailey defender Alice Dreger, known for her promotion of hateful alternative terminology almost all legitimate intersexed organizations oppose bitterly.
Cheryl Chase has had more identities than there are intersexed conditions and has been exposed as a fraud over and over.
Calling foul on you again Autumn for passing out bad information about a group you are not a member of. Chalk this up as yet another epic GLAAD fail as well.
[S]he’s touching me!, [S]he’s touching me!Um… Ok, normally I do listen to that NPR show but the normal day and time that its on in my local I was assisting a new Trans girl. So, I missed it.
I’m Intersexed (a poly-mophic chimera) and Transgendered (I’m complicated) as well (all the books and guidelines saying that I can’t be both are wrong) and the language used is a challenge at times even for me.
1: The term ‘Hermaphrodite’;
I learned a long time ago that all the guide lines and rules are nice for someone, but honestly I don’t expect a person who has not ever encountered an Intersexed person to know anything about the subject matter.When I do have a friend that I’m comfortable with eound to tell them that I’m Intersexed I find inverabilly, I myself end up saying “It’s a kind of like hermaphodism” so they understand what I’m saying.
All of the various ‘guide books’ are just that, guides and they only work if someone has read them.
2: The Bathroom meme;
I’ve been sent to both, I’ve been thrown out of both, I’ve stormed into both doing my job (uh… Navy stuff), I’ve been questioned by security/police either while using or exiting public bathrooms.
3: The Taliban and Terrorist reference;
Um…. nah, they said that the Taliban would be afraid of IS people because we’re so effective in rooting them out. Hey, they got one thing right. Both the Taliban and Al Queda are known to be extreme in its acts against GLBT and I types. They are very afraid that a GLBTI type may be in our ranks when they get caught. You hear really good rumours of why, I love rumors. The harder you work to disprove them, the more life they have. Maybe they’ll get the message not to mess with us eventually.
4: ‘Don’t Ask,Can’t Tell’;
Um… actually, they can’t tell what I am unless I tell them. They are the ones gender confused, not me. I know what I am.
So, back to the Hermaphrodite/Intersex thing for a moment.
There are over 170 conditions that are considered an Intersexed condition. The term Divergent Sexual Development is a newer term. So, between IS and DSD conditions its well over 170+ physilogical conditions that results in a gender other than the standard man/woman meme. These conditions are unique to each individiual. The expressions of the conditions can be so unique as to baffle a run of the mill General Practiction Doctor. Often those with IS and DSD conditions are not diagnosed until they reach that time in life that they wish to start a family and find out that they just are not equipped for it. Its belived that fully 60%+ simply do not know that they have an IS/DSD condition because they are fertial and do start families with natural born offsping.
Off all the various IS/DSD conditions, there is only one that can result in organ(s) of both genders. Chimerism, more specifically cross gender Chimerism. That’s 46XX/46XY genotype.
Many peoplebelive that only the primary sex organs are what matters for hermaphosim. Nope, every organ in whole or part is up for grabs when you’re a Chimera and some or all of one organ can belong to… um… my sister/brother. Heck my blood type is A+ with a occasional hint of O-.
Oh, and the old saw of “[S]he’s touching me! [S]he’s touching me!” makes me laff, even when I’m all alone. LOL
To be perfectly clear yet again AutumnYou and GLAAD do not get to tell people the precise condition I was born with is an insult or “problematic” and this is far from the first time I’ve had to call you out on this.
So much for the TOS here.
thank you Gina
We have bigger fish to fry anywayGLB people don’t have to run the gauntlet of surgeons changing their bodies so as to fit in, when they’re young. Many IS people do.
TS people at least have a set of Standards of Care to deal with a gender identity that mismatches the body. Those diagnosed with an IS condition, and who may have the same issues, are often precluded from treatment.
We get a double-whammy : surgery without consent when young, and no surgery with consent as adults.
Then there’s the fact that some of our conditions are life-threatening, and the standard of medical knowledge amongst GPs about IS really, really, REALLY poor.
Yes, it’s a pain to be called a “hermaphrodite” when you’re nothing of the sort. (OK, a few of us are, if we have ovarian and testicular tissue). Yes, demeaning, insulting etc.
But when some of us die or are mutilated due to incompetent medicine.. we don’t even have time to examine our lack of marriage rights, let alone other issues.
“Hermaphrodite” has been identified as problematic in multiple locations.Cathryn, you know I’m not operating in a vacuum. There are many intersexed people who have identified hermaphrodite can be a stigmatizing or problematic term.
• Times Live‘s Hermaphrodite is offensive, quoting Kofanda of Intersex Africa:
• Intersex Initiative Portland: So you wanna know about “Hermaphrodites”?
And also from the Intersex Initiative Portland website:
• The Daily Beast: Don’t Call Them Hermaphrodites:
• Curtis Hinkle of OII‘s Ten Misconceptions about Intersex:
• From AOLHealth‘s One Woman’s Fight against the Intersex Stigma
And, of course I could quote from GLAAD, but you don’t consider the organization a valid reference.
Cathryn, you’re not the only voice that identifies as intersex or as hermaphrodite. I’m paying attention to multiple voices besides yours. And, multiple voices tell me the term “hermaphrodite” can be extremely offensive for some, problematic or “quaint” for some others, and a self-identifying terms for some others still.
Just as I don’t identify as a “tranny,” I understand though that some people in transgender and/or transsexual people do identify as “trannies.” As a self-identification term, “tranny” is a term trans people can appropriately self-identify by, and I respect their self-identifications as such. However, it doesn’t mean that “tranny” is an okay term to apply to all transsexual and/or transgender identified people because many, many people with trans identifications find the term offensive.
You personally do self-identify as a hermaphrodite. In the same way as above, it doesn’t mean that hermaphrodite is an okay term to apply to all people who identify as intersex.
I would argue that between hermaphrodite and intersex, the less problematic of the two terms for for use by non-intersexed people is intersex.
It is appropriate to identify you by the term hermaphrodite and me by the term transsexual because we identify with those terms bor ourselves; it’s inappropriate to identify you with the term transgender and me with the term tranny because we simply don’t identify with those terms for ourselves.
And hey, I want people in LGBT community to call out those who use inappropriate terminology that is used to describe transsexual and/or transgender people. I am behaving towards another community how I would want them to behave towards my peers and me in my community.
You may have noticed…That the sources you quoted that say it’s insulting do so based on the out and out lie that actually hermaphrodites do not exist This is precisely why I did not get involved years ago with intersexed groups such as ISNA.. why many of us did not. Why we stayed in the shadows.
This condition is real, I was not born some fu*&ing unicorn and I personally know two others who were born with the same condition, so all the crap about how “rare” we are is also crap. I’ve had genetic testing, one of the others I know has as well. We were born tetragametic chimeras. Literally twins that combined at the second or forth cellular split.
The long and the short of my objection is you continue to pass as “the word” that it is an insult when no such uniform opinion exists…..so cease and desist all together with references to whether or not it’s problematic because doing so absolutely offends at least one person actual, real life person who finds that hateful, demeaning and an out and out denial of who I was born and that is 100% against the TOS Pam set up.
I sat by quietly when you did the whole angst bit about maybe being Klienfelders…which by the way a lot of medical professionals do not consider intersexed and rarely is associated with GID. No mas….
Well, now…Don’t forget that those same professionals also don’t consider chimerae to be truly intersexed as well — they tend to limit the “real intersex” to just the Psuedo and True Hermaphrodites (the medical dx), Swyer’s, MG dysgenisis, and PMDS.
From someone who was involved with ISNA. And left during the big split.
There are two kinds of hermaphroditespecifically speaking, and over 30,000 kinds of IS folk.
There are Pseudohermaphrodites, and there are True Hermaphrodites, and those are two very specific diagnoses.
Calling all IS people hermaphrodites is akin to saying that all LGBT people are Leather Bisexuals. That is, not quite all that accurate unless you actually happen to be one of that group.