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Update: The Observer‘s promised apology is posted in their staff editorial Responsibility for offensive comic.
~~Autumn~~
Does hate roll downhill? I think it’s a fair question.
The Pope has a way of saying things that are offensive to many lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people, with his latest utterance being that gays are an ‘attack on creation’, as well as his December, 2008 statement that the world needs to be protected against gays and transsexuals.
So would it be any wonder if a United States university that has historic ties to the Catholic Church had a student newspaper that expresses antigay/anti-LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender) commentary? And, that ramps up the antigay/anti-LGBT expression by it up a notch or seven-hundred-elevendy-billion? A cartoon published in the Notre Dame University student newspaper The Observer with text provided by the post GLAAD Demands Apology and Retraction of Dangerous Anti-Gay Cartoon at the glaadBLOG:
Panel 1: “What’s the easiest way to turn a fruit into a vegetable?”
Panel 2: “No idea.”
Panel 3: “A baseball bat.”
According to Adam at the glaadBLOG (emphasis added):
As many people know, “fruit” is often used as a derogatory term for members of the LGBT community.This type of advocacy of anti-LGBT violence must stop. It isn’t funny. What’s more, it promotes hate crimes, which are all too prevalent in society today.
The cartoonist had posted on his blog – though it’s since been removed – his original version of the cartoon. In the original version, it shows that the punchline read, “AIDS” instead of “A baseball bat.” The paper, he reported, preferred “not to make light of fatal diseases.”
The Observer made a dangerously misguided decision that promoting violence was somehow superior to making fun of HIV/AIDS. Both versions of the cartoon were abhorrent.
Today (Friday, January 15, 2009), The Observer is expected to issue a “full retraction and apology.”
GLAAD contacted The Observer immediately upon seeing this cartoon. The Editor in Chief Jenn Metz relayed a tearful and what appeared to be heartfelt apology by phone. She explained that she was not present when the decision to run this cartoon was made, and that she was incredibly upset that others on staff had made that decision.Metz plans to run what she describes as a “full retraction and apology,” in Friday’s edition of The Observer. GLAAD will watch for that retraction and apology. Additionally, GLAAD asked Metz to ensure that the staff responsible for running this cartoon — both the cartoonist and editor who decided it was fit for print — be reprimanded.
GLAAD has also asked the President of Notre Dame University that his office issue a statement condemning violence, as well as condemning this cartoon that promotes violence against LGBT people.
It matters what the Pope says about LGBT people; it matters what the President of Notre Dame University about antigay hate violence and this antigay cartoon; it matters that the student newspaper at Notre Dame University published a comic that used a antigay pejorative to made light of violence to gay people — as an alternative to use an antigay pejorative to make light of the deaths of LGBT people who pass away from HIV/AIDS.
LGBT people are human. This is an opportunity for Notre Dame University to, on many levels, publicly acknowledge the humanity of all peoples — including LGBT people.
But, did hate roll downhill? We’ll probably never really know the answer to that question. However, I’d argue that anti-LGBT sentiments have been expressed publicly by the Pope and the student newspaper at a historically Catholic university: What I’m sure of is that the Pope’s comments about LGBT people certainly aren’t driving away any anti-LGBT sentiments in the ranks of the Notre Dame University student population.
101 Comments
The apology is posted onlineIt’s here. Apart from the bizarre and gratuitous comparison to Reid’s Obama comments, it seems sincere.
I’d rather ask the Pope for a retraction!Anybody gonna contact him?? Never mind I’ll do it myself.
In case anyone else wants to ask him directly…
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Just the next step in the Kultur warnow that the marriage issue has wound down for a bit; have to keep the fires burning and what better way than preaching rewarding fullfilling, full contact hate slaked by obliteration of the hated?
It worked wonders in Rwanda..
LOL, tell them to bring the noise!We got our own “bats”! And some of them are actually mightier than the sword!
My daughter, a grad student at Brandeisfound it appalling; at Brandeis the paper would never consider publishing such a hate filled, murder inciting image.
I am glad that she turned down Notre Dame….
and she is going to the offices of “The Justice”on monday to see if they would be willing to discuss their editorial policy in a comparasion to that of ND.
Huzzah!First, being associated with a college here where I live, there’s another person in the pipeline who needs to be contacted — the paper’s Faculty Advisor.
Especially in light of the fact the Executive Editor has the final say in what gets pubbed and what doesn’t, she will hopefully be putting the hammer down on not only the bigot who drew the strip, but those who exceeded their authority and approved it.
As with Maura’s daughter, I’ll be sending a copy of this as well as the apology to my local campus paper and use it as a teaching tool.
Fed Prop 8 trial : No longer discrimination against LGBT persons?Someone might want to get a copy of the cartoon to our legal team! But, then again, we’ve been told time and time again that violence against us has nothing to do with discrimination or hate. And when we do complain we’re accused of demanding ‘special’ rights.
I graduated from a Catholic universityand worked on the student newspaper for a bit when I was there. This would have been unacceptable there as well.
Equivalent:Q. What is the easiest way to brainwash a catholic child?
A. Bend him over a pew.
Looks like the site crashed.It looks like so many of us want to read the apology that the site crashed.
Just in case it crashes again…Here it is:
your point is?That there are reprehensible, violent, anti-catholic, child-victimizing “jokes” out there too? I know you know that child rape isn’t funny, and that you didn’t post this intending humor. Irony? Sarcasm? Tit-for-tat? What value did you intend to add here? Did it occur to you that survivors of physical and sexual abuse and rape might read this? Me, I’m trying to pick my jaw up off the floor and hold back the vomit.
The attempt to compare the comicto Reid is idiotic. If their apology is genuine, the kludgy and forced addition of Reid makes it appear much less so.
Reid did not try to make a joke, and I’m giving the artist the benefit of the doubt here, about the (attempted) murder of gay people with baseball bats.
The problem here isn’t so much hate or hurtfulness. They printed a comic that tried to make a joke about gay people being beaten to (near) death. And that is the charitable interpretation. That goes beyond hurtfulness and even hate.
They say that comic is not representative of the views of the Editorial Board, but wasn’t it an editor who changed it from AIDS to beating people to near death? Was the editor drunk and high on drugs?
I’m more insulted by this “apology”than the cartoon itself…well, almost.
Besides, Sanator Reid apologized for his remarks (which I didn’t find offensive at all) and didn’t bring up any other situation; much less one that was politically charged.
All they had to do was to publish an apology. The amends will come in time. No need to implicate another’s action into your acts. That means 9at least to me) that the “apology” is not sincere.
I also graduated from a Catholic universityI did my undergrad at a Marianist Catholic university, as it was the only devoted liberal arts college on Oahu. The Marianist order is devoted to social justice, to education, to uplifting the poor and downtrodden. Their focus as a brotherhood is fighting poverty and the social structures that promote it (racism, classism, sexism). They’re almost Liberation Theology in their views and actions. I found the school delightful. The adjunct faculty are great. My main religion professor was a lay brother who was very positive towards women, sex, marijuana, LGBT people…pretty much anything that undermines the patriarchy. He was fighting cancer the whole time I was attending. He often said that pot got him through chemo, and (in a classic Boston accent), “Cancer is the fuckin’ Devil, and I’m going to kick the shit out of him!”
I can’t imagine Chaminade University publishing anything so hateful as this cartoon.
BTW, Maura, did you get my email last week? I’ve been trying to reach you.
Apology?I find Metz’s apology…um…less than convincing. A responsible editor would not only apologize for the cartoon but fire the people responsible for it at once. If they aren’t held accountable, immediately and strenuously, this apology is nothing but window-dressing–damage control. And what about the cartoonist? Will the Observer be printing any more of his work?
I love the way this kind of rot always gets described as “hurtful.” Why so euphemistic? What the cartoon is, is deliberately vicious. In other words, it was designed to hurt. Why not call it what it is, an out-and-out incitement to bigotry and violence? And the people who greenlit it obviously agreed with its viewpoint; no other explanation is credible. Assuming Metz is sincere (and assuming she really wasn’t a party to this), she must hold all concerned parties accountable in appropriate ways.
Also, I note the claim that the Observer is “an independent newspaper.” That means, I imagine, that it’s not officially connected to the university. So, what is the source of its funding? Who are the people behind it, what is their agenda, and why has there been no apology from them, or punishment of the staff responsible?
The cartoonists themselves apologized as wellIt seems they are claiming it was meant as some sort of spoof that didn’t work (e.g. plenty of characters on the Simpsons say offensive things that are clearly meant as an indicitment of people who believe what the characters say, not an endorsement of the idea itself.) I think that’s at least possible.
No, but if they are Notre Dame students as wellthe Notre Dame Administration can do something about it. I don’t expect them to (it is Notre dame) but this does reflect on the university as well (which as a true maize and Blue Michigan fan, I couldn’t be happier…well, if it were Ohio State, I’d be even happier…
They will “get it” when they can’t get the jobs they want….Google is a priceless tool for those doing the hiring. As “Saddened Mgr” noted in the comments:
[I will refrain from critiquing the misspelled words!]
This is an apology?
Excellent apology.I think this editorial board truly understands the egregious nature of the cartoon. Their use of the term “true hatred” was appropriate.
Regarding the Reid comment, I think they used that as an illustration, along with the cartoon, to remind people that bigotry is alive and well in many pockets of society. I think the reference was fine.
2 Can Play ThisPanel 1: “What’s the easiest way to turn a Catholic into a non-pedophile?”
Panel 2: “No idea.”
Panel 3: “A baseball bat.”
It’s The Truth!Sorry, but I don’t find it offensive at all.
Any catholic who supports those ancient child-raping sissies is just as guilty as they are: enablers.
And catholics are always smarmy whenever somebody brings up the molestor priests – they get all smartassed and ask: “what, were you molested by a priest?”. And sometimes they tack on “you should have been!”.
Sorry accidently hit the enter buttonI was going to say that this does not seem to be much of an apology.
Yes, they did take responsibility for the publication of the comic but you have to remember that the original punchline for it was “AIDS” which was subsequently changed to “A baseball bat”. If the so called “editorial staff” is so brain damaged that they can’t figure out it would be offensive to run the comic in either form then they shouldn’t be on editing a newspaper.
Also, let’s take a look at how it was written.
First off, it was written as a “Staff Editorial” written by the “Editorial Staff”. Nope no one taking responsibility there. So who actually wrote it?
Second, no where in this apology does Editor in Chief Jenn Meta admit any wrong doing on her part. As “Editor in Chief” Ms. Meta, you should bear the responsibility to say that you couldn’t handle the job. Instead we get the “Oops, some of our policies suck, we’ll do better next time we promise.”
Finally I’ll add that this “apology” would probably have come across to me as a little more sincere if someone (I’m looking at you Ms. Meta) would have actually put their name at the bottom of it.
Sorry for the rant but for the life of me I cannot figure out why the LGBT community is so willing to accept this kind of “apology” instead of calling it for what it is. Bullshit.
I’d like to clarify a couple of things....and as a homosexual student at Notre Dame I think I can.
Perhaps most importantly, I have varying levels of familiarity with all three people whose names appeared on the cartoon. I can state definitively that they are in no way, shape, or form anti-gay. The cartoon is dumb, outrageously insensitive, and in very poor taste. It is not representative of their views on homosexuals.
Not to defend the strip, but notice who’s telling the joke. A saw. A tool. ”tool?” Right? Right? Again, this doesn’t absolve anybody, but it might give more insight into what the intention may have been.
Second, Notre Dame gets many things wrong when it comes to gay and lesbian issues. It refuses to include sexual orientation in its non-discrimination clause and refuses to recognize an official gay/straight alliance group on campus. It is not the best place for homosexuals to be.
But this attempt at a joke is not representative of anyone. There are people here who do not believe that gays deserve full equality. There are many conservative Catholics here. Look up Charles Rice’s (Professor Emeritus at the law school…embarrassing) column from Monday to see what kind of garbage I read on a fairly regular basis.
All that said. It’s not a terrible place, and the cartoonists and editors are not terrible people. I assure you. Did they all make very, very large mistakes? Yes. Are they bigots? No. Can the University learn something…anything from this? Hopefully. But let’s not toss it under the bus completely. Remember that it did stand firm when the wingnuts from the right demanded that it rescind its invitation to Obama last year.
Hope that clears it up. or something. My point is not to fully exonerate people for their mistakes, but to make sure people are viewing them as mistakes and not as something indicative of their personalities.
Tell ‘Em How You FeelCommenting on PHB is great, but make sure you go directly to the source: click on the link Autumn posted to the apology, and post in the comments section about how disgusted you were when you saw the cartoon (and, if you’re like me, how insincere and perfunctory the apology seemed). I want the editorial staff to be blown away by how much bad press this cartoon has brought upon them.
Also, as Assistant News Director for the campus radio station at the George Washington University, I want to add that none of GWU’s publications (and there are many) would ever let such a vile cartoon be published. Absolutely unacceptable.
That’s good to hearI’m applying to GWU School of Law for this upcoming fall. Hearing that reinforces my choice of GWU for my first choice.
Could you email me? My address is on my profile, and I’d be very interested to get a first-hand account of how GWU is for LGBT students.
oh heyI’m awaiting a decision from their law school too.
And just to reinforce my earlier point… I would have said the same thing about Notre Dame before Monday. This is an isolated incident. Usually the Observer is guilty of nothing aside from being boring and having some conservative opinion columnists. I’m not usually one to defend Notre Dame… but it’s not as bad as this incident would have people believe, I swear!
I suggest that you do a bit more research.Even the BBC is carrying the story.
It IS as bad as it seems. Further it’s completely inexcusable.
Here’s a lame ass apology from the actual writers of the cartoonhttp://www.ndsmcobserver.com/v…
At least these three have the guts to sign their names to another lame apology for the cartoon.
uhhI don’t need to do any research to relay my thoughts about the University. I’ve lived here for 3 and a half years. My point is that to color the entire University on an error committed by four people is not really fair.
Criticize it for its backward ideas about homosexuality that I listed above. But don’t rip it apart entirely because four students made a dumb mistake.
Making this joke is bigotry…pure and simple.The only way to put an end to bigotry is to start naming it for what it is, and to stop giving people a pass for it. I’m sure your friends have many good qualities–but your attempt to excuse their bigotry does them no favor.
No one, anywhere, should feel free to make that kind of joke–not in public or private. No one, anywhere, should find that “joke” funny.
“Bigot” is an ugly word in our culture, and I understand the impulse to run from it. But telling/drawing that “joke” makes you a bigot. Laughing at that “joke” makes you a bigot. Period.
Why is that so hard to grasp? Bigotry is not simply a state of being. Your friends might never actually pick up a baseball bat and “turn a fruit into a vegetable”–but they thought such a joke was funny enough to spend their time drawing the cartoon, submitting it, and then editing it when requested to do so.
That was bigotry in action.
I grew up in a home where people referred to African Americans as “niggers” and made jokes about how cheap Jewish people were. They were–and are–people with strong strains of goodness and kindness. But they were bigots. They could not move away from their bigotry until they acknowledged it for what it was.
When the cartoonists and editorial staff stop making excuses (and the Reid reference is truly pathetic) and take ACTION to show they understand what they did was wrong, they will be on their way to excising the bigotry that infects them. Until then, they will not be able to–nor SHOULD they be able to–avoid being called “bigots.”
That’s exactly whyI’m skeptical of Metz’s “apology.” GLAAD says she was all, like, you know, tearful when she apologized to them. But her tears may well be for the journalistic future she just saw evaporate.
I wanna play, too!Q: How do you separate the men from the boys in the Catholic church?
A: With a baseball bat.
I don’t disagree with you.It was a bigoted act. It’s a bigoted joke. I am grasping that. My only point is that if all of our personalities were based solely on our mistakes, we would all suck. A lot.
What I’ve been trying to convey to a lot of different people today is that while this was a truly horrible comic, I believe that beliefs and attitudes hurt more than outrageously offensive jokes. When I read the comic, I was shocked. But since I had the benefit of knowing the source, I never got to the point of rage, although I 100% understand how most people would.
I would disagree with your point that they are, in fact, bigots though. How do you define a bigot? Anyone who makes a bigoted joke? I think it’s more important to examine peoples beliefs and opinions, which obviously you can’t do.
Listen, I fully understand where you’re coming from. And it is hard for me to pull myself away from this situation. And the Editorial Staff apology was reeeaaallly misguided. The Harry Reid thing left me scratching my head. All that said… I feel bad that these people are being crucified so vehemently while people around here who actually hold definitively anti-gay positions skate around because they avoid making really tasteless and awful jokes.
Does that make any sense?
Right you are! And not only that,Mel Gibson isn’t really antisemitic. David Duke isn’t really a racist. In no way, shape or form is Maggie Gallagher a homophobe, and neither is Benedict XVI. Hey, there isn’t anyone at all who’s a real bigot, and there probably hasn’t ever been. People who aren’t anti-gay bigots publish anti-gay cartoons all the time. Silly us, for thinking otherwise.
sighThese people are not like Mel Gibson and David Duke. They are some of the most supportive people here of LGBT rights. I don’t know how else to convey this. It was a terrible, terrible mistake. But they do not hate gay people. They don’t. I promise you.
“jokes” about rape and sexual abuse of children sure are funny when the perp is a priestSeems not so long ago that “jokes” about raping women were funny too. Whatever happened to the good old days? Rape is such a fucking laugh riot to the victims and to their loved ones, and hell, to anyone with a god damned dram of compassion. Yuck it up, chumps.
“This is an isolated incident.”Isolated from what, exactly? Do you really expect us to believe that the people responsible for this cartoon formed their attitudes about gay people in complete isolation from anything else in society? The Catholic church’s incessant anti-gay bigotry, for instance? The atmosphere on ND’s campus, for instance? That’s not at all convincing.
Sorry, td874, but as convenient as your argument is, there is no such thing as “an isolated incident.” As Lenin wrote, “Everything is connected to everything else.” The people who created and published this cartoon did it because they had reason to think they’d get away with it. They can hardly have formed that belief in isolation from anything (except perhaps reality).
You’re not paying attention.These people are not even Catholic and do not have negative attitudes toward gays. I know that would make it much easier to grasp this situation, but it is simply untrue.
I have said before and I will say again that Notre Dame’s campus is not an ideal place for a homosexual person. I know from firsthand experience. And for that reason I think my opinion should hold a little bit of weight on this topic.
These people in particular are not entrenched in the typical Notre Dame community as many people would picture it. They do not hate gay people. They are in favor of gay rights and opposed to all forms of discrimination and degradation. I can’t make you believe me but there is absolutely no reason for me to lie about this here.
As I have disucssed here many times before,I was molested by a priest myself when I was a kid. I’ll say anything I damn well want to about the topic, whether you like it or not. Save your damned cheesy moralism for someone who might be impressed by it.
And I might add,if you weren’t priest-molested too, you’ve got a lot of goddamned nerve claiming to speak for people who were. When I want you to speak up in my behalf, I’ll be sure to let you know.
so then…people who have been assaulted because of their sexual orientation can make jokes about that? what if one of the cartoonists was a victim of that type of abuse?
I’m truly sorry that happened to you, but your point is illogical.
Why on earth would someone who’s “in favor of gay rights and opposed to all forms of discrimination and degradation” decide to publish a cartoon about how hilarious it is to beat a gay person till he becomes a vegetable? Why do I find that claim a tad unconvincing?
If these people aren’t really anti-gay bigots, they must be the biggest dumbfucks in the country.
The cartoonists’ apology does not say that it was a spoof. Other people are saying that.Anonymous posters on internet boards are floating some kind of story that the cartoon strip was meant as satire. If that is true, then why didn’t the cartoonists themselves mention it in their “apology?” Why didn’t the paper’s editorial apology mention it? The perpetrators of this hate crime had ample opportunity to explain themselves in their published “apologies.” They didn’t.
People who have been assaulted by priestshave every right in the world to call the Catholic church on its hypocrisy. If we choose to do it with humor, that’s our choice.
You just can’t brook any criticism of Holy Mother Church, can you?
Do you really refer to yourself as “a homosexual student?”I’m almost fifty years old and I’ve never once, ever, heard a gay person refer to themselves as “a homosexual.” And I’m gay.
I’m from the midwest, too, so don’t say it’s a midwest thing.
There are a lot of internet shills these days pretending to be gay. I’m not saying that you are one, but I’m really astounded that any gay person would refer to themselves as “a homosexual” in 2010.
wellI think I already said this too, but I intensely dislike the Catholic Church for many, many different reasons. It’s not the criticizing the Catholic Church we’re talking about, it’s making light of molestation. But if, as a victim, you want the right to make those jokes, I am in no place to deny you that.
Then why didn’t “these people” say all that in their published apology?If what you say is true, the cartoonists had a perfect opportunity to explain themselves in their published apology, as did the editorial board of the paper. Yet there is no hint in either apology that this was intended as satire, or that the perpetrators (oops cartoonists) are in favor of gay rights and opposed to all forms of discrimination and degradation. If true, why didn’t they say so? Why is it up to anonymous internet posters to float this story?
I don’t buy it.
I’d be more convinced if they said so themselves. So far, nada.Their “apology” is almost as awful as their original strip.
You say that….
But where do you think outrageously offensive jokes come from?!
As I noted, one can–and should–separate bigotry as a state of being from bigoted acts. Most of us have committed bigoted acts at one time or another.
The test of whether you are a “state-of-being” bigot is whether–when you are called on your bigoted acts–you defend them or you accept responsibility for your offense and work on the attitude that caused you to make it on the first place.
Let me turn the question back on you. How do YOU define a bigot?
And, as a gay person, why on earth would you defend your friends for telling this joke?
wellWould you like me to send you a picture of my boyfriend and I or something? I didn’t know terminology was that important.
I’m a gay student. I am a real person who is gay, attends Notre Dame, and knows these people. I could link you to a letter I wrote into this very newspaper earlier this semester in response to student writing a letter to the editor saying gays should have to stay in the closet in order to attend Notre Dame (like I said, there are bad apples here, for sure). But I’d prefer to leave my real name off of here if that’s cool.
okI already addressed this. This in no way exonerates or excuses them, BUT: the character making the joke is a recurring character who serves as a caricature of the “typical Notre Dame douchebag tool.” That’s why he is a saw. And has his collar popped and is holding a bottle of Malibu. The comic is generally intended to make fun of the typical Notre Dame douchebag tool. NOT to advocate what the tool character says in the comic. Both apologies were lacking, but I can tell you that they are all sorry.
Again, why would I be making this up?? I’m quicker than most to label people bigots.
If it’s any consolation, thousands of people are furious with Notre Dame as a whole today.I’m disgusted not just with the authors of the strip, the editors who published it, both sets of apology writers, but also the school’s administration, students, faculty, alumni – really anyone associated with the institution who isn’t condemning this publicly.
I’m disgusted to learn that Notre Dame has consistently refused to include anti-gay bullying in its code of ethics. I’m disgusted that the institution treats it’s gay community members like this. I’m disgusted that the Catholic Church spends millions of dollars opposing gay marriage and encouraging their members to beat gay people like myself into vegetative states. Believe me, I’m not blaming this all on the cartoonists.
Your anonymous apologies for the perps aren’t helping either.
There isn’t really a way for them to do that…that I am aware of anyway. Usually the paper doesn’t allow the same people to submit two letters on the same topic, but maybe they will allow it this time under special circumstances. The newspaper website is not updated live. It’s just an online version of the printed paper.
I don’t know what else to tell you other than I really, really hope you take my word for it on this. Notre Dame is very far from perfect. There are some bigots on this campus. The three cartoonists are not among them.
I’m torn because I want to believe that you are who you say you are,in which case you are a young person about the same age as my own kids. I don’t want to attack you.
At the same time, I’m burned by the number of times I’ve caught people faking “being homosexual” on the internets, always while defending some anti-gay behavior.
Here’s my best advice. Whomever you are, stop defending idiots who should be explaining themselves. It’s not up to you to convince the world that the cartoonists didn’t mean it. That’s their job.
sighI’m not defending their actions in this particular situation. They are indeed abhorrent. Every gay person I know in my class is friends with them (including me that is only 3 people…but uh, still). They are not bigots. Are they ignorant and insensitive on a few levels? This shows that they probably are. Do they hold any animosity toward the LGBT community? No. Again, the apology is not great. Maybe it was rushed. I can’t answer for them on that.
I know that YOU explained this. Why didn’t the cartoonists explain it themselves?Why didn’t the cartoonists say all this in their published apology? Why didn’t the editorial board’s apology mention it?
I am disgusted with ND for many of the same reasonsAnd had I done more research before coming here, I would have definitely gone somewhere else.
That said, I do get slightly defensive when it gets attacked “from the outside,” if you will. I’ve had a wonderful educational experience. My professors have all been fantastic and I wouldn’t trade those experiences. Socially, I’ve met tons of great people that disagree with the University on the same things I do. My parents went to Notre Dame.. so did a lot of my other family. It’s so much bigger than the bigotry and stupidity that can arise from it.
They did!http://www.ndsmcobserver.com/v…
Thank you.This is the very point.
Survivors come out of our experiences differently. This has been a stunning learning for me today – that another survivor could make a “joke” employing child molestation so long as it was in the context of cutting down rapist priests. Me, I can’t get past the molestation part. It poisons everything else.
You say they don’t hate gay people? What exactly does it take for you to recognize hatred when you see it?
People who are supportive of LGBTs do NOT make jokes about beating them into a vegetative state. People who are supportive of LGBTs do NOT find this funny in the least. (Read the overwhelmingly negative comments over at the Observer to see my point.)
If the folks who drew and published that cartoon are “some of the most supportive people…of LGBT rights” at your school, I would say you need to try living/studying in a different place. Because right now, you don’t even seem to recognize that people who will joke about taking a baseball bat to YOU are not your “friends.”
Those of us who have spent years advocating for legal rights and acceptance of LGBTs would not recognize them as “supporters,” either.
So what ARE you doing?
I’m honestly trying to figure out what it is that you want to accomplish?
As a ND Alum,I have been trying to figure out an appropriate response to post here, but frankly it escapes me. The editor’s apology is okay, though it certainly could have been better. Frankly, I do take a bit of heart at the apology by the cartoonists themselves. That’s about all I can say at this point.
There’s a mighty big difference between making fun of molestationand ridiculing the molesters themselves. Give it some thought. It’s not that hard to grasp. And frankly, given the power of “Holy Mother Church” and the general reluctance of judges and politicians to take on religious institutions, it’s about the only effective tool we have.
I can see what the cartoonistswere trying to do and it did turn out poorly. I’m glad that td874 explained more about the cartoon (the tool).
I was furious when I first saw the post about the cartoon.
Now, not so much.
I agree that the joke translated poorly but some of you need to rethink your treatment of someone trying to give a different perspective of this incident.
I’ve been reading this blog for years and this is one of the few times I’ve felt the need to post. You seriously cannot see what they were trying to say in the cartoon after his explanation?
People screw up…..I’m thinking that this has been a HUGE and unfortunate learning experience for the cartoonists.
Thank You.I know I wasn’t poking fun at victims of abuse. I was poking fun at those ancient sissies – ancient sissies who say “the catholic church doesn’t have a pedophile problem, it has a homosexual problem”. More like “the catholic church has a pedophile problem, and a problem with homosexuals”.
If anyone wants to go after somebody who openly makes fun of CC child molestation, sic that big-mouthed Bill Donahue.
I Don’t Buy ItThe “tool” BS is just a backup plan for backpedeling.
Since you are friends with themsuggest to them that they make a plain, straight apology:
“our bad, we wuz wrong, we were were dumb idiots, what we did was disgusting, we are sorry”.
Nothing that can be viewed as weaseling, or trying to deflect blame.
I can see the attempt at the jokeI could see that it could have been a very poor attempt at a joke even before the explanations.
The editors didn’t help themselves with their apology though. They should have just said that it was a very poor attempt at a joke about bigots, they screwed up, they are sorry.
F*CK a reprimand….fire them BOTH!
i promise youI went out tonight. I did not see the cartoonists. They are inconsolable. Please trust me on this. Never in their lives could they have imagined being on the receiving end of this type of criticism.
It was a very, very, very poor joke. Period.
The interesting thing to me, however, is that people affiliated with this university who actually ARE bigoted are using this as an opportunity to prove that they really are OK with gays, since they don’t support the beating of them and all. THAT is the problem that this has caused.
I spoke with several friends of mine about this tonight, and we all came to similar conclusions. These three people are all friends with THE ONLY GAY PEOPLE WE KNOW OF IN OUR SENIOR CLASS (there are some gay people in the class that we do not know, but they run in completely different circles). None of US is offended by these three people. Because we know them. AGAIN, I understand the vitriol being spewed in the direction of these people. But please, for the love of anything that may or may not be holy, please please PLEASE believe me… these people DO NOT hate gays or wish any ill on the LGBT community.
I don’t know what else I can say. I’ve spent the last year fighting anti-gay sentiment at this university. And it absolutely rips me apart to see people who have supported me and every other gay person I know at this school be vilified as if they were bigots. They aren’t. I swear to you. Please, please, please. Trust me on this.
Poor judgment, absolutely. And I would tell them this to their faces if they weren’t already beating themselves up over and over again for it.
Please believe me. The cartoonists are not bad people. I know this. Trust me. Please. Please. Take a step back, take a breath, and listen to me. I know more about this situation than any of you. And it’s killing me even though my name is not attached to any part of this.
Fuck, my boyfriend came and hang out with me and one of the cartoonists this summer. I spent a night talking to one of the cartoonists about how much I loved my boyfriend. He was nothing but supportive, and when he met my boyfriend, they got along splendidly.
Why are some of you so resistant to seeing the nuance here??
AndHow fucking dare you try to tell me who my fucking friends are. You don’t know me, and you don’t know these people. Get off of your soapbox for a few seconds and read what I have to say.
Thank you.Thank you, thank you, thank you.
So much. I just wanted to recognize your willingness to attempt to understand what this whole mess was about. I really, truly, and deeply appreciate it.
Was A Stupid CartoonIf the artists wanted to get their point across, they shouldn’t have made an “inside joke” that only they got. Maybe next time instead of a saw making the vile comment, do something more reality-based. A person holding a cross or a bible would have been easier to understand, beings those people make no bones about their hatred of gay people and they certainly don’t refrain from suggesting violence towards them.
I’ve got a good sense of humour and even I wouldn’t have thought these people were referring to this character as a “tool” (a cookies & kool-aid insult if I ever heard one – who calls a person a “tool”, anyway?). My first thought was the saw was a student. A penis would have been easier to understand: a dick! LOL But a “tool”? Not all of us were raised on Dawson’s Creek language.
uhmEssentially, the idea IS that the saw is a student. And the comic is trying to point out the idiocy of the homophobia that is present on this campus.
It obviously was not clear enough though.
All I am trying to do here is let you all know that the individuals who are being held responsible for the comic are not our enemies. There are only so many ways I can say this.
They fucked up. Period. I know that. But at the same time, I know what their beliefs and opinions are with regards to homosexuality. They are not anti-gay. Period. Take a step back, take a deep breath, and please just read what I’m saying. These are good people who are on our side. They are not the enemy. They do not have animosity toward us.
I’m Not MadReally! LOL
Most people still won’t get the “tool” joke because that insult was SO early 2000′s non-cussing teenybopper. The Freddy Prinze Jr. fanclub would have gotten the joke, NOT the gay community.
I understand this here, td874in some places (including this thread) people have taken the opportunity to bash the Caholic Church (I have no problem with that) or Catholic universities. I graduated from a Catholic University (Jesuit) and this cartoon would have been quite unacceptable there. And I had a wonderful education experience (there was a gay student group on campus and there were extremely pro-gay sentiments in our student newspaper, for example).
So as the product of a catholic university education, I understand your defensiveness and I feel it a bit myself.
Okay, now look.We all know these perps are your friends. But your personal experience with them isn’t the issue here at all.
We also know that you’re young. So let me try to give you a bit of perspective on this. What you are saying, “They’re not homophobes,” is precisely what we’ve been told about every bigot who’s ever achieved notoriety on the American scene. ”So-and-so isn’t really a racist/sexist/antisemite/homophobe. He’s really a nice guy. He loves his mother, is nice to little furry things–and he has friends who are black/women/Jews/gays/whatever.” We’ve heard it time after time, in one situation after another, racial, sexual, religious… There was a rabbi named Baruch Korff who was pals with Richard Nixon, who kept insisting Nixon didn’t hate Jews even though he had been caught using every antisemitic slur in the dictionary, and using them emphatically.
“Some of my best friends are black/gay/name-your-minority” is never convincing, not even when it comes from one of the offender’s friends. And it is no more convincing now, coming from you, than it has ever been in the past. You can keep repeating it as often as you like, but it still isn’t going to convince anyone.
If these perps really are your friends (and I’m taking you at your word), you might want to consider that somewhere down inside them, possibly buried very deep, there exists precisely the attitude they expressed in their cartoon. Somehow, on some level, they find it funny and acceptable–and worthy of publication. And that means you need to convince them to change their thinking, not the LGBT community.
That would be the only appropriate responseand the only really credible apology from the paper’s management. Even if these fools’ claims about their real intentions are true, they have displayed an appalling lack of judgment and maturity. They’re not fit to be editing want ads in the Penny Saver much less providing editorial content for any newspaper.
Good Thing I’m not on their campusI’d chuck a big rock through their G*D DAMN newspaper office window, and not give f*ck about the consequences.
That idiotic drivel that the cartoonists had NO IDEA this would cause a firestorm is BULLSH*T. They knew exactly what would happen and didn’t CARE.
btw MY friends were dying when that joke was NEW
MisunderstandingBelieve me, I’m the last person to have a change of heart and I’m now of the opinion that this was a big misunderstanding. BTW nobody contacted me nor did I have a 1-on-1 with anybody – this is just my personal opinion.
It was a stupid cartoon and not many people would have understood the character to be a “tool” (aka “prick”, “jackass”, “dick”, whatever). A prick WOULD make a stupid joke like that! LOL
I think this is more of an age thing: “tool” is an insult used by younger people nowadays – just like “meathead” was the substitute for “dickhead” in the 70′s & 80′s. BTW if I ever hear anyone call somebody a “meathead”, I’ll slap you in the mouth. Unless it’s in reference to that fat guy from the early 80′s movie, Rob Reiner I think?
I’d rather you guys focus this energy on Matt Barber, Maggie and those other punks. And hopefully the cartoonists will learn to speak in a language we can ALL understand! LOL
Overall, you’re quite possibly right.But that doesn’t change the fact that these, er, tools displayed absolutely abysmal editorial judgment and shouldn’t be working for any newspaper anywhere. Would you hire them for a paper you owned?
Probably Not.But I wouldn’t hire them for being dummies – I wouldn’t hire them because our junior high school newspaper cartoonist was a much better artist! LOL
And you said summed it up with “absolutely abysmal editorial judgment”.
Let’s see….The cartoon first asks how you turn a “fruit” (derogatory term for gay male) into a “vegetable” (slang term for a person whose brain has been irreparably destroyed). Answer: with a baseball bat (beat the gay man so savagely he ends up in a coma on life support.)
Your friends’ actions speak much louder than your defense. They were joking about something that’s a tragic reality for all too many gays.
Of course, on the other hand, maybe Mathew Shepard’s killers just made a “mistake.” You know, like forgetting your car keys. Ditto the murderers of a black man in Alabama a few years ago who dragged him behind a car until his body was in pieces. Hey, let’s cut them some slack, okay? They might be perfectly nice folks who just plumb forgot that they had a human being attached to the back of their car.
Incredible. This person sorely needs a new circle of friends.
Thank you.There should never be jokes about sexual abuse / rape. It reminds me of all those creepy jokes that are oh-so-common about “ripping __ a new [asshole]” and “don’t drop the soap!” prison jokes… WTF.
“These people are noteven Catholic and do not have negative attitudes toward gays. I know that would make it much easier to grasp this situation, but it is simply untrue.”
They put together, and the paper published, a cartoon suggesting that savage, violent attacks on gays are funny.
I hate to think of what your standards for “negative attitudes” are.
It would have been even “funnier”if the cartoon had included a graphic representation of what a person beaten almost to death looks like. Think of those photographs of Emmett Till and you have an idea of what a classic knee-slapper that would be.
There’s nothing so totally vile that someone won’t defend it.
The cartoonists’ idiodic drivelis the essense of genius compared to some of the attempts to rationalize that cartoon.
“tools”Another point… I find it weird that if the comic was trying to highlight how the person saying it is a “tool” over the actual anti-gay violence contained in the frames, wouldn’t it serve its point better by “revealing” that the speaker was a tool at the end or something? I really don’t see the point… how is it supposed to end otherwise?
I think it’s time to sound the Troll Alert here.
We read what you have to say.And most of us think you’re full of it.
I can’t believe thisI really can’t. I don’t know what else to do at this point. I’m being accused of trolling when I am the only person here who is giving any thought to the intent of the cartoonists.
Stand back. Take a fucking breath. Read what I have written. Stop condemning people who are ON YOUR FUCKING SIDE.
uhmTHE CHARACTER IS A TALKING SAW.
There is no negative attitude deep inside of them
But you know what? You’re probably right. These three people who are friends with the majority of gay people in our class, have liberal political viewpoints, and think that homophobia is a problem at the University are CLEARLY homophobes who hate gays.
How does that make sense?
You can say I”m full of it or that I’m trolling or that I clearly don’t know these people well enough. By now I’ve realized that people love to feel outraged. To hate. To jump to conclusions about people they don’t know. It’s just so easy. So I’m going to try to leave it alone at this point. Most of you have responded to me without giving any real consideration to what I’ve said. And that’s the real shame here. Some good could come from this if we shifted our vitriol to the school’s policies and not three cartoonists who made a bad joke.
ugh.
Just brilliant.The creeps who perpetrated this cartoon aren’t haters, but those of us who take vigorous objection to it are. If that’s the kind of intellectual acuity fostered at Notre Dame, it explains a lot. But it’s to be expected, coming from a Catholic university.
I don’t know what’s more offensive to me…as a writer and “humorist”…just the homophobia or just the plain stupid laziness of the contibutors and editors of a college publication…I mean…really?…someone, at some point, thought this was funny? If they are going to insult people aren’t they able to do so without using a joke that’s been around forever? This is not a good sign of what passes as “higher education” in this country…
As A Lesbian Activist I find Notre Dame toadying to the PapacyI want to say that from my vantage point it looks like, having damaged itself with the Bishops and Rome with the Obama award, ND wants to get its catholic university bona fides back. What better way to do it than gay bashing?