4:25 PM: We have several updates to the post at this time; read on. NOTE: What can you do? Contact CBS using its feedback form. Change.org has a petition targeting The Late Show’s Barbara Gaines (Executive Producer), Rob Burnett (Executive Producer) and Jay Brennan (Executive Producer)
Forty-six seconds of naked, incredible antitrans sentiment — directed at Amanda Simpson, the new Obama Administration Bureau of Industry and Security appointment.
I’ll add commentary as an update.
Update from Autumn:
I’m left wondering what would happen if a late night host joked about the race, disability, veteran status, religious creed, or sexual orientation of an Presidential appointee. Obviously, such jokes would be out of bounds.
If, in a skit, David Letterman joked in the same way about the sexual orientation of Kevin Jennings — having a member of his cast run off the stage upon hearing that Kevin Jennings is a gay man — I have no doubt that the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) community would be up in arms about it.
But obviously with this David Letterman skit/joke, trans folk like me know it’s not out of bounds to attack someone on the basis of our gender identities. You can insult a otherwise qualified trans appointee to the President’s administration just because of his, her, or hir gender identity. (And in Amanda Simpson’s case, attack her because of her gender identity.)
And, I wonder, after posting about the antitrans sentiments in the lesbian, gay, and bisexual subcommunities of the LGBT community, will there be outrage? Will we see our LGBT organizations battling antitrans sentiments expressed against Amanda Simpson as hard as they fight for marriage equality?
I don’t see a lot of LGB community bloggers and leaders speaking out about antitrans sentiment spoken against Amanda Simpson. I’ve been writing about it way too much this past week. But maybe, just maybe, I could shut up about it if others in the LGB portion of the LGBT community would speak the hell up about attacks on the T portion of their broader fucking community.
Yeah, I’m angry.
And hey — thank you, Joe.My.God, for speaking up on behalf of your brothers, sisters, and siblings in the trans community.
NOTE FROM PAM: That video is such a flaming, ignorant, bigoted pile of horsesh*t, but just saying so cannot be where it stops. Letterman’s clear cluelessness that any aspect of this “humor” is wrong should be a wake up call to our movement leaders that the general public, potential allies in the struggle for the passage of an inclusive ENDA, are woefully uneducated.
And what that means is when the right wing comes after us with the “bathroom arguments” and the “tranny teacher” scarefest, we have to have legitimate, thought-out responses, not silence or simply saying how ignorant it is. People genuinely have concerns because the trans population is so small overall that the majority of people have no personal frame of reference to draw positive conclusions, let alone pick up the phone and call their member of Congress to be an advocate.
There is a direct connection between that video and our ability to pass ENDA.
As Autumn noted in her piece earlier today, “What About Antitrans Sentiments Expressed Intra-LGBT Community Against Amanda Simpson?” We don’t even have our own house in order if legitimacy is given to arguments as to whether the T belongs aside the LGB, or worse, if there is no such thing as transgender.
We need more allies to be up front and confronting the ignorance in the community, and I give props to Joe Jervis over at Joe.My.God for taking the time and patience to explain why the Letterman video is so disgusting to the commenters at his pad who saw nothing wrong with the “humor.”
For those who don’t see anything wrong about this, consider how it reinforces the age-old “tricked by a transwoman” claim that so many hate crimes defendants use, such as in the recent case of murdered teen Jorge Mercado. Aside from being sophomoric and a sitcom cliche, running off the stage as if about to vomit from the news that Amanda Simpson is trans is just not the sort of entertainment we should give a pass.
We need more LGBs, particularly gay men, to stand up and call out, and more importantly, educate peers to see things from a broader movement perspective. Getting gay male allies out there in the public discourse is significant because that was the one demo that voiced significant anti-trans sentiment and support for a trans-stripped ENDA during the last debacle. All of us can be myopic about the demographics we inhabit from time to time, but certainly we are all capable of extending our rationale for equality beyond the group one belongs to.
It’s not a zero-sum game to support trans rights any more than it is to advocate for LGB equality. It’s sad that our movement leaders, offline and online, aren’t aggressively using the bully pulpit and resources to focus on discussing these matters openly. If we can’t be unified on the principles of an inclusive ENDA, how can we sell it to heterosexuals with even less awareness. As I said:
We have to draw a line in the sand — not whether to censor the opinion (that will always be debated), but are we willing to address a core problem of this movement, not how it manifests itself? I don’t have to think twice about whether the T belongs in LGBT; oppression is oppression. That’s an easy call. All or nothing on ENDA.
UPDATE 2 (Pam): I want to address some reactions in the comments and on FB that this is merely satire and thus pro-trans. Sigh.
Letterman s trying to have it both ways — he isn’t the one performing the horrified anti-trans reaction, but he’s allowing a surrogate to go for the laugh. Don’t think that there wasn’t a lot of identification in the audience with the screaming mimi bigotry, regardless of intent. We ignore this at our own peril re: ENDA. So few people personally know anyone trans that thinking this is sophisticated humor interpreted by a fully enlightened audience is wishful thinking. More so because the gay community isn’t even unified re: trans-inclusive ENDA.
Humor like this does not get a pass in this political environment, given the vast number of people who need to buy into ENDA and remain ignorant of the issues. Given how much ignorance about LGB issues (and race, for that matter) that I still see in progressive circles, it’s an unrealistic and dangerous stretch fantasy to assume an even more complex concept such as trans issues is already accepted enough in the public discourse to be satire fodder. Take a gander at the comments by some readers of JMG about this topic.
Also take a look at CBS’s diversity statement and see if that meshes with the skit’s POV:
“CBS Corporation, and its divisions, are committed to fostering an environment that celebrates and encourages differences in people, their ideas, beliefs and cultural backgrounds, which, in turn, positively influences business conduct, the productions, shows, products and services we deliver, as well as, our responsibilities to the communities we serve and society as a whole. This commitment enables us to attract and retain employees with the talent, creativity and innovation necessary to grow our industry leadership position and to deliver the financial performance required by our stockholders.”
UPDATE 3 (Pam): I want to also give a shout-out to Andy Towle of Towleroad, a blog with a massive gay male audience to challenge with his post about the Letterman skit. Way too many comments there are also dismissive of the ethical and political damage this kind of “satire” produces when the minority group in question is not only denied full civil rights, but has essential rights legislation before Congress as we speak. And it’s a country full of people ignorant of trans issues, no matter what level of sophistication you believe Letterman’s audience has.
ALSO: Megan Carpenter at Air America sends our message out into the progressive arena, and why this skit was not just tasteless, but only reinforces the discomfort out there about trans folk. Thank you, Megan.
This is “funny” to Letterman and his audience because it relies on stereotypes about transgender people. The first stereotype is that transgender people are deliberately not honest and open about their transitions–which Amanda Simpson rather obviously is–in order to engage in sexual relations with unknowing partners, despite the discrimination, hostility and physical danger many transgender people face from the average stranger. Worse yet, it plays into an ongoing stereotype about the LGBT community at large, which is that LGB people and transgender people are essentially predatory in their sex practices, “recruiting” supposedly otherwise-straight people to their supposedly deviant lifestyle through trickery. It also relies on the stereotype that any supposedly “normal” (i.e., cis-gender straight) person who finds out that he or she unknowingly engaged in sex acts with a person they later discover is transgender would be so horrified at the thought that he or she would vomit. And, finally, it reduces Amanda Simpson and all transgender people to their genitals and the use thereof, rather than acknowledging that their genitals are a part–and for some transgender people, a very minor part–of their gender identity and transition.
But it is apparently easier to poke fun at one transgender woman who has the courage to be open about her life–I mean, she’s probably heard worse, right?–than to make fun of a the discomfort of a group of people, thereby making them even more uncomfortable. It used to be that Letterman’s humor relied on the hilarity of the audience being uncomfortable with his jokes. I guess with Jay Leno moving to 10:00, someone had to take over the role of enforcing majority rules.



86 Comments





Embarrassingly stupid skitas well as absurdly adolescent.
Um … not funny.Y’know, when Letterman goes after Sarah Palin, I clap my hands with joy. Because a) those jokes are typically funny, and b) there’s a little schadenfreude involved, as Sarah Palin (I believe) more or less deserves what she gets, after appointing herself Miss Teabag America and thrusting her clueless/vicious/deceitful perspective on the American public.
All Amanda Simpson ever did to deserve attention was a) do her job and do it well, and b) not lie about who she is. As such, this kind of “comedy” (note the quotation marks) is not only cruel, it’s … well, it’s not funny.
So, I think it will be KO not Rachel who will get this guy.
I’m lividAll I can think of is call your local CBS station.
Make your displeasure known but be civil.
Dena
I think that for many people in the U.S.This is an issue with which the general public are just now grappling. There haven’t been a lot of high profile transgender persons in the news, in television, sports, politics, etc that I can remember. Even my being in the gay life in Wash., DC for 35 years, I have only met a handful myself.
I do get that all people deserve respect, until proven otherwise, but I bet if you go back 25 years and look at some Johnny Carson shows, there were probably a lot of queer/gay/lesbian jokes that were just as cruel. I think it’s a visibility issue for many people and one of poor education on the subject.
I remember being really young when Rene Richards was in the news and not one person ever told me the story behind the lifted eyebrows and the tittering (probably around 8 or 9 years old at the time). That was 1975, 35 years ago. I am not excusing Mr. Letterman’s behavior, but I understand that his audience (mostly straight, average age 47), probably haven’t had much opportunity to meet a transgender person, much less get to know one. This is indulgence in pure ignorance.
Nothing newI recall his bandleader stooge Paul Shaffer used to word “tranny”
Dena
Another opinion?I just watched the clip, and I have to say I saw that in a totally different way. The producer’s reaction in order to get the laughs seems to me to be parodying the reaction of the right, of the anti-trans folks. I actually thought David Letterman’s statement was pretty respectful. Didn’t he use the correct pronoun to refer to Amanda?
Yes, it’s a cheap laugh, but at whose expense? It just looked to me it’s a laugh at the expense of the anti-trans people, much like that old candy bar commercial is a joke at the expense of men who are so wrapped up in their masculinity they think touching is awful.
I’m not a fan of Letterman in general, so I didn’t think it was funny anyway. But just offering a different perspective.
Not Lie about who she is.. HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMM so anyone who chooses not to wear a shirt with of TRANY on it is a liar ??? someone who says YA BABBY I AM MAN WHO ALTERED MY BODY .. is more honest ?? what might that say of the true feelings that run deep down. …
I best be quiet now or I might find myself in trouble.. But then again well behaved women rarely make history..
Definitely satireThis is how I read it, too. I wasn’t sympathetic toward the announcer at all, but thought he was a fool for being “duped.”
no that was Letterman trying to have it both waysAppear that he isn’t the one performing the horrified anti-trans reaction, but allowing a surrogate to go for the laugh. Don’t think that there wasn’t a lot of identification in the audience with the screaming mimi bigotry. We ignore this at our own peril re: ENDA.
Two words…
Two words: James Watt.
this kind of “satire” doesn’t fly in this political environmentSo few people personally know anyone trans that thinking this is sophisticated humor interpreted by a fully enlightened audience is wishful thinking. More so because the gay community isn’t even unified re: trans-inclusive ENDA. Humor like this does not get a pass in this political environment.
Given how much ignorance about LGB issues I still see in progressive circles, it’s an unrealistic and dangerous stretch to assume an even more complex concept such as trans issues is already accepted enough in the public discourse to be satire fodder.
not funnywhat a bunch of transphobic BS!
?
Isn’t one of the top people on Letterman’s staff an out lesbian? I seem to recall a feature on her in the Advocate a while back.
Tough to see it that wayMy first reaction was thinking of the Angie Zapata murder. Instead of running off to (apparently) throw up (I guess a lame Crying Game reference), why not grab a fire extinguisher and beat her head in because she deceived you.
Dena
last time I lookedAt the ENDA debacle (and that Ron Gold piece at TBP), our own community can be just as blind to its transphobia. If an out lesbian didn’t recognize the political ramifications of joking about the first trans Obama appointee and the pending ENDA legislation, that’s a problem to discuss.
So Many Other OptionsIf this is supposed to be satire, it more than falls flat, it fails miserably. There are so many other options for the Letterman writers, if they really wanted to make jokes that weren’t offensive.
For instance, have the announcer do the same scream and “Amanda used to be a dude?!” followed by “That means she lied about the baby!” and then run off.
How about Letterman following up his own announcement with “One job we know she won’t be getting after this one, though…Ambassador to Uganda.”
There are myriad ways to be funny without being deliberately offensive, and it is especially ironic that a hound like Letterman would comment on anyone else’s private life.
I find myself somewhere between the angry and the amused…Yes, I think it is satire. No, I do not think Letterman meant to hurt transgendered people with this. But, it is still making light of something incredibly hurtful, and his people need to be made aware that it isn’t really funny. He wouldn’t make fun of gay-bashing, would he?
Was David Letterman’s Joke About Amanda Simpson Transphobic? Or Actually a Compliment?Speaking of gay men needing to stand up, queerty embarrassed me on this subject.
http://www.queerty.com/was-dav…
I posted…”You had to even ASK if this bit was transphobic?
go back to LGBT 1-001″
(I’ll leave the transgender person’s themed thread)
Lying about who you areThis is one of those situations where, I think, the GLB and the T experiences are more alike than different.
People tend to believe that being closeted is a passive activity, or the lack of real activity, that it’s simply not talking about something. These same people believe that being out is an active pursuit that involves saying things you don’t really need to say.
The truth is just the opposite. It takes a lot of energy to closet yourself, whereas being out is comparatively passive. It’s not editing yourself, going out of your way to hide who you are, and generally not caring who knows.
I did not mean to suggest that transgender women and men go out of their way to announce their gender identity; I only meant to say that Amanda Simpson has never gone out of her way to hide hers. For that, I admire her.
Andy Towle deserves some love, too.He posted the video on his blog and was very critical of Letterman’s anti-trans comedy. The same cannot be said of 100% of his commenters, sadly (then again, the same is true of Joe.My.God).
Letterman SkitI also just put the video on my blog. Whatever the rationale behind the skit, the punch line is of one being disgusted with a transgendered person. My big question is: Why? Why,David Letterman? Why did you feel the need to do this? It was just cheap and cruel. We all need to push this issue with the CBS execs. It’s time for us who are not transgendered to step up to the plate big time.
Nonsense.Do you watch Letterman at all regularly? It’s a rare night when he doesn’t make some sort of sniggering joke at the expense of LGBT people. And when there’s a relevant issue in the news, the floodgates open. In the past, it’s mostly been gay men (I remember him making joke after joke about how gross it was for two cowboys to kiss in Brokeback Mountain, for instance). But over the past year or two, as trans issues have gained a bit more currency in public discussion, he has been making more and more sophomoric jokes demeaning “trannies.” It might (I only say might) be possible to credit what you’re saying if it weren’t for Letterman’s history on this stuff, which speaks clearly to the contrary.
Perfect example of why the T must be part of LGB in ENDAThe “ick” demonstrated by the redheaded stooge certainly had a homophobic element. The implication to me was that he was ok with the sex he (is implied having) had with her until any male element (via her history) is introduced. We here all know that sexual orientation and gender identity are different things, but the caveman on the street only sees the sexual object and requires that it be of a certain gender past, present and future because of homophobia. If you ask me, this skit is perfect proof of why we need ENDA, and should be used in the legislative hearings as Exhibit A. Letterman is an ass for promoting this skit, but he did provide a perfect case study of why every element of the LGBT community needs employment protections.
We thought that it was funnywhen he did it to Palin
We may need to re-think our humour habits
Letterman regularly goofs on the right wingI think he definitely meant it as a “get over yourselves right wing assholes” but I agree that it also came across as terribly juvenile and bigoted.
WTF?You probably should have been quiet before making a comment that shows your ignorance on what transgender people go through. And no, you don’t get to hide behind that cliche of “well behaved women” either. A transgender woman is not someone who goes around saying “YA BABBY I AM MAN WHO ALTERED MY BODY”. If you knew lesson one of Trans101, you would already know that genitals (nor chromosomes for that matter) do not a woman make (or man, for that matter).
Change.orghas the following action alert/demand. Within is the following letter:
h/t Orion
No, I don’t watch him.I only offered my opinion based on what I saw in the video posted. So I only saw this the as I did in a way very out of context from the regular goings on on his show. That’s all I can comment on.
I don’t watch Letterman because a)he’s not funny (the word sophomoric that you used is spot on) and b) I have to get up and go to work in the morning, so late-night TV is, well, too late for my perpetually tired self.
“well behaved women rarely make history.. “Neither do stupid, bigoted ones.
“Out of bounds”?
Huh? Have you missed all the Barney Frank jokes? The ongoing “OMG Ewwwww!!!” banter with and about Richard Simmons? And as someone mentions above, Brokeback Mountain jokes?
You anger at “GLB” for not being more vocal to support “T” doesn’t give leeway to claim that “GLB” is now a fully-protected, non-made-fun-of group. Please don’t drive a wedge between GLB and T any more than you point out as already being there. I for one am completely appalled at Letterman’s treatment of Simpson (passive-agressively, using another person as the “foil”). But I’ve seen very similar “quote unquote jokes” about ALL sexual minorities.
“Cisgendered” people are NOT your enemy, and our fight is NOT over. To quote your own sentiment, we’re on the same side.
It’s only fairfor him to actually have Amanda on his show. I would be happy with that kind of recompense.
I agree, and will link upI hadn’t gotten around to read Towleroad today. I just hopped over and saw even more vitriol in those comments. Again, this is why the Letterman dust up is a useful example to illustrate the problems not only in the straight community (presumption of level of sophistication to appreciate satire), but the problems we have internally surrounding support for trans equality and inherent biases.
I think having Amanda Simpson on his show to give exposure to the issues at hand about a landmark appointment would go a long way toward righting this specific wrong.
Letterman ridicules Palinfor her aggressive stupidity and ignorance, her smug, obnoxious anti-intellectualism, her general cluelessness on important issues, and her total unfitness for any job more demanding then egg-candling. She has built her public persona on precisely those qualities (though I doubt she sees them that way), which makes her fair game for public comedy. In sharp contrast, Letterman ridiculed Amanda Simpson for merely being who she is. That is a different matter altogether.
ExactlyThe skit was as much homophobic as transphobic.
My letterSent via the contact form:
In a recent show, David Letterman was commenting about the historic appointment of Amanda Simpson to the role of Senior Technical Advisor to the Department of Commerce. Seconds into his commentary, his announcer screamed “AMANDA USED TO BE A DUDE?!” and then ran offstage to much chuckling.
I am not chuckling. It was not funny and such “jokes” only serve to reinforce the bigotry and fear that people in the gender variant community face every single day. Would you have felt free to do the same when talking about a person of color? About someone who converted from one faith to another?
Hey, it was a cheap laugh and that is your business. But this is one person who does not see this as satire because of the violence perpetrated against so many in my community. I encourage you to refer to GLAAD Media Guide (you can find it at glaad.org/referenceguide) for guidance on how to stop perpetuating the stereotype of transwomen as a “dude in a dress.” This stereotype has led to the deaths of Gwen Araujo, Brandon Teena, Angie Zapata and countless others.
I strongly encourage you to book Amanda Simpson to discuss just why her appointment is so historic, about how her career has been affected by coming out as transgender and what needs to happen to encourage respectful discourse on matters facing the gender variant community. You have the opportunity to provide a teaching moment to your audience, most who have probably never met a trans person. Thank you for your time.
So,the fact that Letterman is also a bigot when it comes to GLB people makes it OK for him to be transphobic too? Bigotry is OK if you repeat it often enough? I sorely hope not.
And, please, never use “tr***y,” whether or not you put it in quotes. Letterman and others in his position use it only to demean, insult and dehumanize trams people. Please don’t make it seem that that’s OK by using that term yourself.
Excellent suggestion, Pam!
Ms Maddie Barber’s use of pronounsand arrogant determination of Ms Simpson’s gender is just as noxious.
As for Ms Barber, well, she just screams queen and if she can assign Amanda’s sex, I can assign that diva’s sex.
So, if you please, from here on out is is Ms Maddie Barber….
Thanks, QscribeFor pointing out why what Letterman did to Amanda Simpson last night is in no way comparable to his jokes about Palin.
Awesome letter!Thanks, hawke!
What Do You Expect?My God, it’s Letterman. Absurdly adolescent is his shtick. He hasn’t been funny in 25 years, if he ever was. He’s just an asshole.
Yes,Letterman did use feminine pronouns when referring to Amanda. At the same time, he denied her status as a woman by referring to her as a “transgender person,” not a “transgender woman,” leaving the announcer’s “Amanda used to be a dude?!” comment hanging as the definitive identification of her gender.
Even if the skit was directed at “anti-trans people,” it was still premised on the idea that disgust at learning someone is transgender is a reasonable and understandable reaction. As others have pointed out, few people are as sophisticated about the nuances of LGBT politics to recognize the subtle distinction you are hanging your hat on, leaving that disgust as the primary message. Either way, the skit was offensive and Letterman should apologize and have Amanda on his show as recompense.
So, Being an a**hole means we should give Letterman a pass when he demonstrates his bigotry? That we have no right or reason to be offended? As I commented elsewhere, repeating bigotry doesn’t make it more palatable or acceptable.
The StrangerDan Savage at The Stranger has our back.
tho his remark about us “passing”irks me. Mainly because I detest the connotation of “passing.”
Do you even read the post ? or do you just go off on keywords >>>??
both Thehawke and qscribe try following the entire conversation …
And forgive me if you not directed at me .. But if you are then lil history i am post op over 10 yrs.. so i have a good daym idea WTF it’s like ..
Red7Eric well done post on the follow up.. and thank you.
It wasn’t a joke for Angie Zapata or Gwen AraujoIt’s not a joke when it’s the same joke, made umpteen million times for decades.
It’s really not a joke when the punchline is the excuse for violence.
It’s not satire when it’s directed at the powerless.
It’s really not satire when it’s directed at the powerless whose odds of being murdered as a hate crime are over 14 times that of a person not like them, in this case, cisgendered people.
I know how to readAnd it doesn’t matter if you are pre-op, post-op or non-op. That status doesn’t grant you any more authority on the subject than anyone else on this board.
If you know how to read Then what are you goin on about ?? Seriously wtf is the problem ?? You obviously missed .. I objected was part B. but i doubt you saw that … cause all you focused in on was the satirical response
Red7eric said “All Amanda Simpson ever did to deserve attention was a) do her job and do it well, and b) not lie about who she is. As such, this kind of “comedy” (note the quotation marks) is not only cruel, it’s … well, it’s not funny.”
and i responded to “And b) NOT LIE ABOUT WHO SHE IS”..
Who she is .. is a woman end of story..
And to imply anyone who doesnt instantly out oneself as being dishonest IS BULL SHIT>>
An i dont need Authority i live it day to day in a hate filled state were few dare to tread.. back in a time were people of gender variations really had to be strong.
I gave up on seeking or desire of Authority with transition.
Dan SavageHe’s about the last person I’d want watching my back. I suppose that this post of his could be worse…at least he’s only telling us that it rilly, rilly was supposed to be a good-humored joke at the right wing’s expense (honest!) this time, instead of engaging more directly in anti-trans bigotry and stereotyping like he usually does when talking about trans people.
How on earthcould you possibly read anything I’ve posted on this thread and conclude that I think it’s “okay” for Letterman to do what he did? Buy a clue.
I have no idea where the hell you are getting that I said people MUST come out.I get so sick of people who are all “oh back in MY day we had it so TOUGH!” As if we don’t today. As far as I can recall, over 160 people had their names read on TDOR last year. Just because you have been around longer than someone else doesn’t give you any more credibility than the person who will walk through the doors of Ingersoll tonight saying “I think I may be trans.” The only credibility you and I have, and yes, I am a transman on top of being a Significant Other of a transwoman (who has been post-op for 18 years FWIW), for almost 15 years is that of experience. I do not say this to discount your history but to point out that things are STILL tough. We are still losing our lives. We are still losing our jobs and families. Don’t discount the experiences of the newer folk who are just coming through the doors. Their views, their concerns, are just as valid as yours.
I take offense at you saying you are post-op as a point of authority (or pride? Or of proving your cred?) because, as you and I and many others (trans, non-trans and everyone in between), getting surgery is not always possible. It is often a matter of class or in my case, the technology just is absolutely not up to par. Not to mention that the cost of bottom surgery is astronomical for transmen. Me not going and getting a dick doesn’t make me any less of a man. It means I don’t have around $80-$100k and that I don’t want to give up erotic sensation. Not having a dick does not give me any less credibility to speak from my experience as a man.
My wife is a WOMAN. Period. as well. She is also an activist for the trans and dyke community. I’ve been an activist since I came out as a baby dyke in the mid 80′s. It is the people who are willing to be out and work for the protections that we need that we’re finally seeing some progress on our issues.
We have it a bit easier being in the Seattle area but I moved up here from Louisiana so I KNOW that not everyone feels safe enough to come out. I was on high alert when I was down there recently wondering what would happen if I was arrested down there (not that I’d provide a reason but still). Once again, so you do not misunderstand what I am saying, for those who can live “out”, we need all the help we can get. For those who can’t, we just need your support.
I think I can read through your vitriol and mark this up to not understanding where you were coming from in your original post. It just did not come through very clearly that you were agreeing that the situation is fucked up. But nowhere did I see that someone was saying everyone should come out.
He’s been getting soft in his old ageI remember him locking horns with the old Pride producers back in ’96 (the Great NAMBLA Debate). He’s a shock jock with a paper instead of a radio show. But I was surprised to see him be less dickish on trans issues of late.
Sign the petitionI have signed the petition which is now linked on this post, and proud to do so. I have had a day to let this settle on me and I am even more appalled than I was this morning, and it was pretty sickening then.
Yes, it did cross my mind that it was satire, and yes, I’m sure that’s what THEY thought in their puny little childish minds pandering to an audience with the same affliction, but it’s just wrong. There was nothing funny about it whatsoever. It just came across as awkward and crass as fuck!
It must be condemned. It’s as if those guys have completely lost track of how to write humor, and just seek the lowest common denominator for a laugh.
But I haven’t watched Letterman in about 20 years.
Done!Husband and I registered our complaints with CBS!
Yes, that’s why he joked about her underage daughter being rapedAll good fun, wasn’t it?
I objected to that at the time. Just as I object to this.
Maybe he’s actually learning.It won’t excuse his past actions, but another ally is always good.
And if I were her, I’d refuseSeriously. Her work’s highly classified. As a Federal Employee, she can’t talk about discrimination issues, and because of the sensitivity of her work, can only talk in general terms about what she does. As in “I can confirm that I am employed in thus-and-such position, but can’t discuss that.”
She’s allowed to talk about the weather, any sports team she follows… probably not about the skit though, not without clearing all questions and answers through Govt lawyers first.
This is an extremely sensitive position. One that genuinely affects national security. Not Kabuki security, not classifying-to-cover-up-idiocies, but the genuine article. You really do need a sackful of degrees and decades of experience to do the job.
I’m in the business, or have been in the past, though not in a US context. I can’t even talk about the similarities and radical differences in what I did. Those who do nothing but shuffle paperclips can’t talk, they provide cover for the rest. I can neither confirm nor deny etc etc. Just like anyone with Q-clearance, or those who deal with toilet paper consumption.
Please Ask Autumn about thisShe’ll tell you it’s not a good idea. Now she’s actually doing the job, exposure and publicity unless exactly stage-managed is a career-killer.
For the people who don’t think it is insultingTake as instructional the number of people who are in the transgender community who find the skit so blatantly offensive. If we, as gay men and women, want other people to take our word for what is offensive, then even if you cannot see this for yourself, accept the outcry of a large portion of the transgender community that it is offensive.
Allow people to changeI cannot bring myself to hold grudges. I will be vigilant against people who espouse bigoted views of any kind, but I am always willing to welcome people into the fold of genuine humanity.
Imagine, for example, if the African American community refused to accept Sen. Byrd’s disavowal of the bigoted group that he once was a member of.
Human beings learn. Human beings grow. Human beings can become more Human. My concerns are never with those who have chosen to join the Human race, but those who steadfastly refuse to join us.
It can be a gay panic joke easilyLetterman’s ‘transgender panic’ joke can be easily made into a ‘gay panic’ joke if necessary -
Person A : Did you know that person xyz you used to know has come out? Yeah, he’s gay!
Person B : Ewwwww gross! I used to hang around with that dude!
I must be dense, but . . . my reaction, after watching it five times, is similar to that of one of Dean over at Joe My God, who commented:
I agree with Dean’s assessment – the joke is the character who runs off screaming, not Amanda Simpson. I made sure I watched it several times to confirm this.
David Letterman is clearly being respectful, and he’s set up the situation so the “transphobe” is the butt of the joke.
This is, of course, not the first time I haven’t “got it.” Sometimes I am just dense, and sometimes other people are being overly sensitive.
While I think this is more likely to be the latter than the former, that’s just from my perspective.
My main concern would be……the security aspect of her appearance. I know she’s going ot be doing media for BIS, but I imagine she can’t talk much about the details of her job on air.
And too, the way to token-ize her is to make her a media star.
But, having met Amanda Simpson, she is one smart lady — she’s smarter than I am, for sure. If anyone could pull off such an interview, it would be her.
No, if we want to treat Barber correctly, it’s neutralMat (sic) Barber as a subhuman or inanimate “it” would be perhaps more appropriate.
On the other hand, I’d just as soon merely point out how wrong it is than resort to gender-bait & switch.
I got that right awayThe transphobe who runs from the stage screaming is the small minded, bigoted idiot. I completely got that the moment I watched it. I’ve seen far worse homophobic and transphobic jokes on late night TV. Every single damn day Jay Leno had an adolescent crack about “Brokeback Mountain.” EVERY DAY. That being said, I think alot of people who are not sophisticated in subtle humor would laugh for the wrong reasons.
Also, not surprised that this occured on CBSThe way they handled the Otalia lesbian storyline on “Guiding Light” was horrendous. The whole damn network is bigoted.
Again you just dont get it..
its not about comming out or not coming out… its about the the statement that someone is HONEST if they are out (And if they are not OUT they are Liars) according to RED7Eric’s origional post.. IT is that point I took execption with..
Now someplace you decided that i was not trans and you posted this in your origional WTF
“WTF?
You probably should have been quiet before making a comment that shows your ignorance on what transgender people go through.”
I added the post op part so you would freekin know I have detailed understanding of WTF it means to be trans .. Which you took upon your self to accuse me of not knowing what it was like .. so if that is assertion of Authority then it is earned and i have every right in the world to speak up..I really dont care if you can afford surgery or not that has nothing to do with this discussion.. That is your own personal issues now init… its the chip on your shoulder you need to address .. cause it seems to wiggle it way into places it no Germain meaning.
And your the one who seeking “quote unquote “”" Street CRED ” with your throwing around the Ingersol bs.. so you come jump me about something you didnt even read so i think i am finished arguing with a fence post. be well and have a good life ..
I don’t think he cared.Because, you see, we’re not really people, trans women. Not to the casual observer.
Jay LenoI was the butt of a Jay Leno joke back in 2002……..
I didn’t feel outraged.
I know lots of trans peoplewho have not had surgery. Your status of being pre-op, post-op or non-op doesn’t fucking matter to me. You have nothing to prove how “trans” you are. I don’t see any sort of litmus test in play here, except maybe the one by you, considering you seem to place a higher value on the words of someone who has “been there” meaning “was lucky enough to have surgery.” Congrats. You’re trans. So am I. So are many others here. I don’t need cred. I’m not seeking it but maybe I was hoping you might just for an INSTANT place yourself in the shoes of a person coming thru the door TODAY who is scared shitless and doesn’t know where to start. I was hoping that maybe for just an INSTANT you’d realize that the fear you experienced 10 years ago and the fear my wife experienced 20 years ago. I’m just out doing the work that people like yourself can’t or won’t do.
So what have you done for your community today?
and the small minded bigots are the ones who take the Aruajos and Zapatas and Teenas from us.
bullFrom experience I’d say I was at least 50 times more likely to be murdered by some “outraged” Tg than a random bigot lurking in the bushes.
I understand,but I still disagree a bit with this:
“it was still premised on the idea that disgust at learning someone is transgender is a reasonable and understandable reaction”
In viewing that clip, I don’t think it’s premised at all on that being a reasonable reaction. In fact I think the core of the “joke” is the exact opposite. But as I said to Qscribe above, I only saw the above clip. I never watch Letterman, so I can’t put it in any further context.
Also, thanks Abby, for the clarification about Letterman’s use of “person” – that wasn’t something I had picked up on.
RE; Angie and GwenI never said it was a joke to them. It certainly is not. And as a “joke” it fell flat anyway. It was useless and not funny, like Letterman’s show in general.
As far as satire goes, that’s another story. It might not be pleasant, but that doesn’t mean it’s not satire. It also doesn’t mean we can’t object to it and express our displeasure to CBS.
Zactly.If we don’t tell CBS and World Wide Pants that we’re unhappy with the skit, then they’re likely to repeat that kind of objectionable material regarding trans women in the future.
Expressing displease can be an effective action, especially in this case if a significant number of people send that message to CBS and World Wide Pants that many LGBT people; the friends, family, siginificant others, and allies of trans women, trans men, and genderqueers — as well as those with progressive community values — are exceedingly displeased with the skit.
Letterman does not apologize wellWhile the insult to Amanda Fleming was obvious and deliberate by the David Letterman show, his attitude about women in general is an insult. Look at what he did to his wife, caring more about being blackmailed after cheating on her with someone from his staff. He didn’t even care about the women he was having the affair with, but only about his own reputation after being caught and threatened.
If he does apologizes to Ms. Fleming, I hope he does a better job than he did when he further humiliated his wife with his multiple so-called public apologies to her.
I have yet to hear the mainstream press talk about this, so maybe the focus should be on swamping the entertainment shows with a demand for their attention to this issue.
Amanda SimpsonLetterman and Obrien aren’t the only ones making rude commentary disguised as comedy…
Sunday or Monday night, Ben Shapiro sat in for right-wing, Conservative talk show host Gerry Doyle. He began by asking if the President’s transgender appointee was a he or a she or what and what she should be called? One of his technicians responded with “A man, duh”. Then it went downhill from there with Shapiro comment that for his next appointment the president could select someone who isn’t mentally ill.
So far not one outcry from HRC or anyone about this program. Granted, it plays to a captive audience, but the advancement of bigotry and ignorance are things which should be countered no matter where they show their ugly heads.
Gerry doyle will be at a book signing Jan. 16 in Warwick, RI. I am planning on being there to confront him and his approval of Ben Shapiro…too bad Shapiro won’t be there.
Pax,
Gwen
you are saying you are 50 times more likelyto be murdered by a trans person than a random bigot?
Just as a noteYou come to that point of view as someone who is outside the nature of that particular attack.
What you are being informed of is that the way you are looking at it is actually harmful to trans people, and you are being told this by trans people, who will have to deal with the harm it causes.
When trans people talk about cissexual privilege, that’s an example of it. THat kind of “I don’t see how that’s true” thinking is exactly the same kind of thinking that led to the joke being aired (and written, and rehearsed) in the first place.
It doesn’t seem bad when you are on the other side of things, because you are on the other side of things.
Although you are likely tired of hearing such, here’s one of those examples of trans folk teaching. Are you going to be willing to learn from this time, or will you harden your position and resist them?
A shock jock with a paper instead of a radio showAgreed. He’s equally bad on “B” issues as he is on “T” issues, and probably only marginally better with the “L.”
I thought he was talking about her Bristol
And I don’t remember him implying rape.
yesthat is exactly what I’m saying based on the death threats, attempts to utterly destroy my life, leave me homeless when I was taking in the homeless, rape, turning me in as a terrorist to Homeland security, magazine bombing and over a decade of out and out character assassination because I dare say transsexuals and transgenders are different and those differences needed respected if the two groups were to ever work together.
I had the same reactionwhen I watched the clip, I thought the same thing – that the announcer’s reaction highlighted how ridiculous such a reaction is. HRC’s letter said the reaction implied some sort of relationship the announcer had with Simpson – to me that seems like quite a stretch, I didn’t think that at all when I watched it.
Just wanted to let you know you’re not the only one who saw it differently. This can be a lonely, hostile place when you’re expressing an opinion that differs from most on any particular issue. The truth is that some people saw it differently – it’s really a matter of opinion. That we saw it differently does not make us ignorant, uninformed, transphobic, etc. I’m not interested in being characterized as such by folks who lecture as if quoting scripture from the Gay Bible. Our experiences and opinions are our own.
“It doesn’t seem bad when you are on the other side of things, because you are on the other side of things.”The above quote, from dyssonance really nails it for me.
I am in a long-term poly relationship with two black folks (their moniker; “african-american” gets laughed at in this house) and I can say one thing: as the lone white dude in the room for many years, I have learned that no matter what I thought I knew and understood…? It’s nothing compared to reality.
So while people may make comments about transgender folk with some sense of knowledge, I myself lean toward my Daddy’s perennial advice of keeping my own counsel and letting those who know speak up with facts.
And remembering, of course, (as he also used to say) opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one and everybody’s stinks but yours.
To my ears & eyes, the truth is simple. Transgender men and women are horribly discriminated against, especially in the greater LGB community where they ought to know better. Hell, I’m the B in LGB and I don’t feel so damn welcome myself.
We should study other groups and their struggles for equality inside and outside their greater rubrics and work toward tolerance for all people. Start at home, where it’s the least comfortable. Your gay neighbor or lesbian coworker or trans sibling may just remind you what you are least comfortable with in yourself. And that’s the beginning of wisdom.
Love & light,
Steven