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A few days ago I received a link to a blog post called “Sara Buechner, Once David Buechner”, by Ira Rosenstein. In the post, Rosenstein displays his ignorance of the difference between sex (“what’s between your legs”) and gender (“what’s between your ears”).
While I was pondering how to approach my write-up about Rosenstein’s post, the Ron Gold debacle happened at Bilerico. As I read Gold’s post, I couldn’t help but notice one glaring commonality between the two screeds: apparent anxiety over penile amputation.
Gold:
I recall reading something by Jan Morris in which it seemed that he thought he needed a sex change because he wanted men to hold doors open for him and kiss him goodbye at train stations. For starters, I’d have told him that I’ve had these nice things happen to me and I’ve still got my pecker.
Rosenstein:
David apparently went through the complete process- the hormonal treatments, and then the amputation. Followed by whatever crude physical reconstruction modern medicine is capable of. I think it’s clear most men would choose death instead.
We already know that anti-gay bigots think of homosexuality and feminism as two faces of the same challenge to masculinity and/or male dominance. So is it really a stretch to think that some men with personal masculinity or dominance issues might respond so maliciously to MtF women? Rosenstein has another post up claiming that the recognition of Asperger’s is part of “the current war on boys, the demonization of boys”, so he’s clearly got some man-adequacy issues. And Gold in the comment thread of his post responded to ZeoB’s (that’s the Zoe Brain of the blog A.E.Brain) mention of intersexed people like this:
What do you mean you are intersexed? From most of the stuff I’ve read “intersex” seems to be entirely about women with enlarged clitorises who have sometimes been misidentified as males, and sometimes forced to undergo clitorectomies.
Tell me he didn’t type that with johnson in hand.
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It’s sad, but trueSeriously though, there may be nervous laughter at this, but the fact is that Gold was so preoccupied with severing a penis is indicative of the unattended-to misogyny in that slice (no pun intended) of gay men who don’t understand or socialize enough with lesbians or trans folk to work through it.
If I were Gold and interested in problem-solving, I’d offer to come back and take the heat in an open thread or liveblog session to ask the question on everyone’s mind you’ve raised — does he feel that he represents a significant slice of what gay men think about trans folk? If so, how do we address this? How do we address a post rife with anxiety over a penis being whacked off? That’s primal sh*t that needs to be addressed because it gets in the way of any kind of rational decision-making in our movement if people in positions of influence hold these ignorant beliefs? Can they not govern past these insecurities to think about civil rights matters?
They can’t help thinking about it, either…“For the next thirty seconds, DON’T think of an elephant.” You can’t not think of an elephant when you hear that.
When people hear a trans woman is post-op, susceptible individuals can’t help but think of the amputated member, ans what would happen if it happened to them.
When people hear about or observe a gay couple, the susceptible ones can’t help but think of the two men having sex in ways that are disgusting and disturbing to the thinker.
With the SRS, the funny thing is that it’s not an amputation, but a reconfiguration — almost all of the original sensate tissues are kept and moved to new locations.
But that doesn’t stop the anxiety. Maybe some like the reassurance that once you’re born with it — barring a horrible accident or malicious act — you’ll almost certainly die with it.
And trans women just completely upend THAT apple cart…
Jan MorrisAnyone who can make such a statement about Jan Morris (and, by the way, rather hostilely refer to Jan as “him”) really doesn’t know what he is talking about. When I first wanted to educate myself about gender diversity, I went straight (pardon the slip) to Jan Morris’ “Conundrum.” I was about 18 years old and it remains one of the most extraordinary reading experiences of my life. The book opened doors to my understanding. I had the great honor of meeting Jan Morris many years later when she was promoting one of her travel books. We talked for a few short minutes. It is rare to find a person so full of life, confident, and in love with both words and people.
To say that her journey had to do with holding doors and goodbye kisses is insulting beyond belief. As the father of someone who is now coming to grips with his gender identity, it makes me sad that my child will go out in the world with folks like Ron Gold, someone who should be an ally.
But the question remains: why on earth would someone want to write something so ridiculing and offensive to another human being? The cruelty in that statement boggles the mind, and rivals the cruelty and fear we have all of us LGBT people have seen too much of in California and Maine.
Penis amputation isn’t a pleasant thought for most men, but neither is any other amputation a pleasant thoughtI personally only worry about ONE penis and I would bet the vast majority of other men only worry about their own penis.
This reminds me of a cute joke on Wanda Sykes Show.
Meagan Mullaly was a guest and she said, “On ABC you can say penis but can’t say vagina, and wondered why.”
Wanda said, “that’s because who runs the station is a dick”
YupThis is the entire crux of a lot of transphobia and even homophobia and why feminism is critical for queer equality. This is pretty much it in one.
Overall, the anxious masculinity of that type seems to be at the forefront of a thousand issues. The far out gun nuts seem to treat their guns as metal penises and thus constantly freak out that more feminine people (liberals) will try and take them away. A lot of support for wars seems to be from men who think of America as a measure of the size of their penis and thus needing it to be mindlessly “strong” and “aggressive” to feel like they are super-manly and stuff. And all manners of shit like rape, gay bashing, trans bashing, wife beating all stems from these sorts of anxieties that “someone” can take one’s maleness away and thus render them in the victim caste of women if one doesn’t prove themselves with callous or violent reprisal.
A lot of the solution is feminism and getting people comfortable with their sexuality and the understanding that no one can actually take one’s sex away from someone (and trans people are sort of the proof of this, it is a very active process to go from one to the other, hardly passive).
But draining this sort of toxic masculinity culture is going to be exceedingly difficult when so many men have been steeped in a culture that says losing that toxic masculinity is losing one’s identity as male.
If I had a boyfriend…I’d only worry about one too. His.
I’m reminded of an old joke, about a guy who accidentally gets SRS.
The hospital offers generous compensation, but the full impact still hasn’t hit him, and he asks “Will I ever be able to experience an erection again?”
The Doctor says “Sure….”
“But it will have to be someone else’s…..”
In all seriousnessThere are an endless number of jokes about how men are obsessed with their penis, they think with it, they think about it all the time. Many of these jokes are made by people who have never had a penis, and don’t know what it’s like. And maybe that’s not a good idea because maybe it IS serious.
I’ve always felt my brain is androgynous, and I’ve always had difficulty wrapping my head around gender. I had my own gender identity crisis when I was 12 and decided my sex wasn’t the issue, just everyone else’s expectations of it.
I’ve sometimes wondered if I’d still be gay if I’d been born a boy. It makes sense to me to be attracted to the same sex because it’s a sexually androgynous attraction. I know that flies in the face of gender and sexual orientation being separate, but that’s how I feel.
But then I think, I really don’t know what it’s like to have a penis–to have a sexually sensitive organ on the OUTSIDE of my body and to have to feel it there all the time. Maybe it would make me more aware of my sex and more often, and maybe that would bother me.
I know it would seem breasts would also remind me of my sex, but they are surprisingly ignorable with the right shirts.
Men and their penis though…you only have to watch an episode of “America’s Funniest Home Videos” to see how obviously sensitive it is, and how men react to seeing other men get hit in the crotch. And they have to handle it when they use the restroom, and I’m guessing look and aim. And position it when they get dressed, and be embarrassed when it reacts at inappropriate times (as seems to happen to boys during puberty.)
So, for gay boys I wonder if they were forced to be aware of their attraction to other boys because their anatomy wouldn’t let them ignore it. And that same anatomy causes a lot of distress for young FTMs that wish it was different.
I can go a whole day without ever really thinking about my vagina or my sex. I’m also really introverted and sort of live in my head. I’m sure my temperament plays a part in that. But when I imagine having a penis, I imagine it would be more difficult to forget it’s there for a whole day.
That may be a factor, but I’d rather think of it as misogynyThe man who would worry about losing his penis worries because he thinks it would make him like a woman. Or maybe even “less than a woman.”
Julia Serano’s book Whipping Girl explains the transphobia-as-misogyny thing very well.
Indeed, anti-gay bigotry is also rooted in misogyny.
The biblical story of the Men of Sodom, misused for centuries by Christianists as one part of their anti-gay screed, is really about inhospitable cruelty to strangers who are different, and is rooted in a macho sort of misogyny. The men of Sodom wanted to show the strangers that the Men of Sodom were the tough guys, and the Men of Sodom were manly men, whole the strangers were less than women – so to prove it, they planned to anally rape them – to “use them the way they would use women” – and then throw them out of town so they could tell their own neighbors to not mess with the Men of Sodom.
Abner Louima was raped by a NYC police officer with a baseball bat some years ago – yet another example of this. Like any other kind of rape, it’s not about sexual orientation or even about the sex as activity – it’s about relative power. In the case of the men of Sodom, to show that they were the strong and powerful Machos, and that the visitors were the Putas, puny weaklings to be treated like women.
(NOTE: I picked “puny” very carefully – that is derived from the Roman word for Carthaginian (Puni, hence the Punic Wars), and history shows what the Romans ultimately did to Carthage.)
Men who fear losing their penises worry about the end result being that they would be treated like women. Why do they call their penis their “manhood?”
It also explains the huge amounts of money being spent on drugs that “enhance” erectile function. Men who can’t “get it up” are seen as less virile by other men.
But my penis did NOT get amputated!It’s still very much there, nerve connections and all. It’s just been refashioned…turned inside out like a sock puppet and tucked up inside…into something more closely resembling what should have been there in the first place!
I really have never understood why men are so obsessed about the damn things. Fast cars, big trucks, power tools and firearms do seem to function as extensions or substitutes for the damn things. Ever wonder what society would have been like without this phenomenon? No skyscrapers, for starters…
On a silly note, if they ever do want to simplify the SoC down to a single thing, all the Gatekeepers have to do is to describe SRS in detail…maybe show a film. Anyone male identified will sit there and squirm. Anyone truly TS will ask “OK, so when do we get started?”
Dicks and boobs and fur tooThis discussion reminds me of an experience I had at the Folsom St Fair one year. Some friends and I were strolling around and overheard a conversation between two thirty-something gay boys.
“What’s a FtM transgender?” asked the one. Said the other, “That’s when the dykes get their boobs cut off and grow beards and pretend they’re men.”
The fellow who said that was one of those guys who gets all the hair ripped or burned off his body so he can pretend he’s fourteen.
I just posted something to Ira’s blog, which is “awaiting moderation”So here it is, here:
My reply
Men would. So if anyone does this voluntarily then…. maybe, just maybe, they’re not men.
Now for TMI.
Er, no. The last time that kind of op was standard was about the time Kennedy got assassinated. These days, the procedures – there are a few main variants – are quite sophisticated, and little donor tissue is wasted. The most common is “penile inversion”, which is exactly what it sounds like. It’s hollowed out, turned inside out, and used to construct the vaginal walls. It’s a bit more complex than that, a sensate clitoris is constructed from parts of the tip, scrotal tissue is used to make the labia, but you get the idea. Another, more recent variant uses the scrotal tissue to line the vagina, penile skin tissue to make the labia, and the head is split to make a clitoris and g-spot too. In both cases, with a good surgeon (not all are) the result is indistinguishable (even to an OB/GYN) from that of a standard factory model female who’s had a radical hysterectomy.
Nudge Nudge Wink Wink Say No More.
One problem with that – sex is in the head. I don’t mean psychologically, I mean anatomically. See for example such light reading as:
Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation. Swaab Gynecol Endocrinol (2004) 19:301-312.
A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68-70.
And then there’s these two best-sellers:
A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity by Garcia-Falgueras et al Brain 2008 Dec;131(Pt 12):3132-46.
Male-to-female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034-2041
Riveting stuff.
OK, the over-simplified sound-byte version: women have female brains; men have male brains. Usually the bodies match, but sometimes things get bollixed up in the womb, and they don’t.
When they don’t, it feels horrible, perverse, awful, so they get them fixed up. Or eventually kill themselves. Christine Daniels had to stop her transition due to family pressures – she didn’t have surgery, stopped taking hormones… and died. Trying again in the public glare just seemed too much for her. She was my friend, by the way. I miss her terribly.
What this means… is that women with male genitalia don’t experience sex the way men do. And men with female genitalia can’t know what sex as a woman is like. Wrong device drivers for the peripherals, you see. Things don’t work very well. Sometimes they don’t work at all.
Another un-pick-uppable publication:
17B-Hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency: A rare endocrine cause of male-to-female sex reversal by Bertelloni et al, Gynecological Endocrinology, Volume 22, Issue 9 September 2006 , pages 488 – 494.
Yes, there are rare Intersex conditions that cause a “natural sex change”. 17BHDD is about 1 in 100,000, as is 5ARD.
OK, now having said that…bottom line – it’s at least nine times better for girls. What else would make them risk the dangers and inconvenience of pregnancy? Tiresias was right.
Yes, I do speak from personal experience. 17BHDD and 5ARD aren’t the only syndromes that can cause a natural sex change, I got one of the rarer ones.
“it will have to be someone else’s”And that someone else will be a medical malpractice lawyer, upon being contacted by the amputee to sue the amputator.
It’s still very much there, nerve connections and all.thanks, I was wondering when someone would say it.
I have been busy with other ideas, that i wanted to talk about, and kept forgetting to mention that.
Amputation?It’s more… Picasso’d. If it were as easy as amputation I could have done it myself and saved $12,000.
Reasons.I think a sizable portion of it is from internalizing transition in such an inappropriate way – making the issue all about themselves instead. This seems to be a common issue, e.g. years ago, when answering the endless questions of “how many children do you (want to) have?” with “none” as I had decided I did not wish to do so I found that many who reacted in a strongly negative way proceeded to make statements clearly from seeing my decision as some sort of commentary on their own choices.
I also think a significant part of it, and a part which I firmly believe Mr. Gold maintains, was that trans people are inconvenient for theories they wish to maintain.
I’d never made the correlation, but damn, you’re right!!!Penis anxiety. That’s it in a nutshell. That explains the guns, the fast cars, the big trucks, UFC, all the behaviors that are stereotyped and mocked as “Neanderthal” are really just outward manifestations of penis anxiety. I’d never gone as far as you did with the gun analogy, but I think you’re right on target, Cerberus.
Hell, Freud believed that lesbians were really just straight women with a bad case of penis envy. For some people it really is just all about how big is your dick.
I had a similar conversation with a Navy LT some months back regarding DADT, right after I was accidentally outed (I’m a veteran working in the DOD as a civilian, for those who don’t know). I explained how homophobia is just a manifestation of misogyny, because gay men, lesbians, and bisexuals don’t fit into “traditional” gender norms (I didn’t even touch transphobia in this conversation; baby steps with some people). He started going on about “I don’t mind gay people, I just don’t want to shower with gay guys, etc.” And I asked him why. He said, “I don’t want them checking out my junk!” I said, “So, you don’t want to be ogled in the same way that men ogle women all the time.” “EXACTLY! Hey, wait a sec…”
When I got him to admit that homophobia, and later, transphobia, was rooted in misogyny, and straight cis male fear of being treated like women, of being made a lower class of person, he was much more receptive to understanding relevant issues.
And Lurleen, I love you for this diary.
I hope I say this right and nothing comes out offensively – but the whole ideaof amputation was what first clued me in that maybe there was more behind trans than simply a preference for “role playing” the opposite gender.
More along the lines of wondering just what would have to be going on in my head to go to something that extreme – had to be way more than a fetish or something about wanting to wear women’s clothing – so I started reading and talking more to others to find out.
I’ve found that it helps open a discussion with someone who doesn’t get it as well. ”Would you be willing to……?” seems to be a good way of getting people to grasp the idea that this is something way more powerful than simply wanting to be a drag queen (which seems to be what most folks I’ve encountered think of)
Not exactly..but there’s some there there.
Recommended reading by Dr. Jillian T. Weiss.
http://www.bilerico.com/2009/1…
It may sound like ancient history in the beginning, but stick with the article.
For portions relevant to this post, refer to the part about “the cure”
Many of you are welcome to complain about masuline tendenciesI happen to find it damn sexy. BTW many of the transgender women also seek a masculine man to partner with.
THIS subject is also just as worthy of NOT flamingThe statements made about men, and masculinity you would NOT allow towards someone’s size, or towards women.
Truthfully, with methere’s probably some of that.
Then again, I freaked out the first, last, and only time that I ever put a wig on (and that was almost 25 years ago).
And I’m pretty much the type of gay guy that probably cannot pass as straight…well, maybe I can nowadays but I don’t think so nor am I looking to butch it up, exactly.
Hmmm…yeah, I’ve always had more issues with my masculinity than my sexuality but I think only a little bit of it is actually about my penis. But let me think on this some more.
I had this to say a few years back(this is from an old post I did long ago that became a page on my blog: http://www.dyssonance.com/?pag…
You know those moments when someone freaks out because you are gay, or a lesbian, or bisexual, or trans and they just seem to go all nuts and say some of the most amazingly stupid things?
Often, it’s because, in some way, you just violated The Rule Of Screwing.
yeah – its a violation of the rule of screwing.
That is, there are two kinds of people in their perspective: those who do the screwing, and those who are screwed.
They define the screwers as the males, and the screwees as the females.
Anything that “allows” itself to get screwed is a screwee – and, therefore, female (which has connotations of inferiority).
So, when a man allows himself to get screwed, or a woman fails to allow herself to get screwed, they are violation the rule of screwing – and they simply can’t handle that breakdown of what they perceive as the “the way things are supposed to be”.
worse: since they consider it their job to screw, suddenly having something that isn’t female be screwee, it leads to the suggestions that since they are supposed to screw those things which are screwable, they are supposed to screw these screwee men.
And that scares the crap out of them, on a sub-conscious level.
Why? Because if they can screw another man, it means that men are screwable, and that would place them in the screwable position as well.
Which means they would be women.
Which scares them even more, because that would mean that they’d have to give up the privileges of being the screwer.
Its all nice and simple for them until this change to the heteronormative patriarchy raises its head.
They can’t deal with it. IT becomes a logic bomb in their heads, and, in the end, what we get is a person for whom the most apt description, in light of the rule of screwing, is…
…screwy.
Outside in…rather than inside out.
Yeah…make ‘em squirm!Tell them it’s like slitting open a banana, scooping out the insides, flipping it inside out, and stuffing it up inside.
So many jokes……that I was forced to listen to in men’s locker rooms etc. when I was pre-transitioned, seemed to involve men putting their dicks into all manner of objects, from holes in trees or walls, to sheep, to just about anything. I always wondered where that came from, and why.
I want to be clear,I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with masculinity or being attracted to masculine people. What I’m talking about in this post are people who ameliorate their own feelings of masculine inadequacy by attacking and demeaning other people. In this case, MtF (never FtM, notice) transfolk.
penis worshipLast time I checked, a “man” cannot (even he wanted it)get medical clearance for GRS . . . But transsexual women can–so Mr. Gold can stop worrying his little brain and go back to worshiping his wiener.
It must be difficultto be a man with such anxieties of losing one’s penis. I mean that sincerely, not with any sarcasm. I think it must be painful to go through life with that undercurrent of fear. I don’t go through life with a fear of losing my womanhood. The closest I can think of is a fear of breast cancer, which would change my outward appearance to one considered less feminine. But even that is not something I worry about very much, as I live in a nice state of denial that I will not be the one in nine who gets breast cancer. And I have friends who have worn prostheses after surgery, or not, and it doesn’t make me view them differently though I know it must have an effect on their self-images. But I guess when society tells you that femaleness is not worth very much, you don’t have to fear losing it in the same way, even when you’ve been part of a feminist community for a decade or so and you don’t think you view being female the same way the larger culture does.
Questionable reasoningRosenstein:
David apparently went through the complete process- the hormonal treatments, and then the amputation. Followed by whatever crude physical reconstruction modern medicine is capable of.I think it’s clear most men would choose death instead.
That statement actually helps prove the point that women who unfortunately have their ovaries and everything else drop aren’t men and vice a versa.The use of the term amputation also clearly shows a lack of knowledge and understanding.
I find it odd that many people would call phyical reconstruction crude when it comes to genital correction surgery but don’t seem to give it a second thought when it comes to any other reconstructive surgery.
It’s obvious men would be distraught if they lost their penis just as it is for women who lose their breasts.
It’s very unfortunate individuals will say,act and react out of ignorance rather then demonstrating intelligence and intellect from gaining knowledge and understanding of something they don’t understand and base judgements souly on their visual perception.
gay menI don’t understand why everybody keeps focusing on transphobia among gay men just because ONE GAY MAN made very offensive comments about TG/TS people when just a couple of weeks ago Autumn posted a thread from a lesbian blog where several women put forth a litany of the most disgusting, revolting, transphobic comments I have ever read.
Ken,Would you mind if I gave you a big hug? I hope the best for you and your child. You both deserve it!
I’ve actually met a couple of transfolk like thisWARNING: I do think of this story as 1) befuddling…I know it befuddled me when I heard it and 2) funny. But I can also see how it could be interpreted as demeaning and transphobic.
Having said that…
I think that I’ve met a couple of transpeople who may have had penile amputation anxiety. Well, in the sense that their penis seemed not to be functioning and that it bothered them.
In the older case, the transperson (who could pass for cis) even asked me what was wrong (was it the hormones she had been taking, the drugs, etc.) Hence, the my being befuddled part.
Thinking about this now I also have to say that this particular transwoman (?) was also a sex worker and I think that her concern may have had something to do with the fact that she was pre-op had a great deal to do with her sex work…I’m just guessing there.
I make no statement about the sexual orientation of these men.Although Gold is openly gay, I have no idea about Rosenstein’s sexual orientation and don’t much care. As far as I can tell, sexual orientation is immaterial to the question I raise in the title of this post.
I’m more comfortable with masculinitywhen it’s in a more pro-feminist, gay- and trans-supportive context. Yeah, some people are just butch and/or masculine — it’s only a problem when they start insisting that masculinity is a sign of superiority, or that everyone else (or some subset of everyone else) should aspire to the same masculinity.
Whatever issues you may or may not have had,you are a thoughful person who understands that these are your issues, and therefore haven’t demeaned others as a way of coping. Everybody has issues over something or other – it’s part of being human and nothing to feel shy about. What is important, in my opinion, is whether we choose to face our issues destructively or constructively.
the reason I’ve mentioned gay menIs not because they are inherently different in their insecurity about their penises, but gay men like Gold are a serious problem for the LGBT movement. If they are part of the LGBT and think it’s only legitimate issue if it’s LGB, then we have some difficult internal work ahead of us.
Are we a united front on civil rights or not? That is a legitimate issue stemming from Lurleen’s post that I’ve raised, not Lurleen.
Whenever I get a response somewhere along those linesI tell the guy in question that he must have a very high opinion of himself. Never fails to take him down a peg. It always seems like most of the men who freak out about a gay man coming on to him are the ones we wouldn’t touch with a twenty foot pole.
Trans and Lesbian commandosarmed with ammo bandoliers full of syringes of Luprolide sodium, a temporary chemical castration agent, to wilt the willies of the misogynistic anti-trans/anti Lesbian crowd…that would strike terror into their hearts…unfortunately it only lasts for a month…
Realistically, their only issue is “G”Lesbians, whilst currently neglected in their misogyny, are regarded with condecension and disdain; our issues, primarily healthcae and child issues, are wholly dismissed.
Lesbians aren’t transphobic?Well, as mentioned above, we know that’s not true. And there havbe been some reports of transphobic violence regarding lesbians.
Or are lesbians less likely to vocalize it (primarily because lesbians have less of a voice)?
A limited number of Lesbians, Kevinprimarily the radical second wave Lesbian separatists, and they are nasty pieces of work who define about 2/3 of Lesbians out of Sapphism as well…..in fact, they define both myself and my wife out of the community..we were both once(or twice) married
lesbians may be less likelyto vocalize it, but women generally have to deal with misogyny regardless of sexual orientation, so the gulf of understanding in terms of oppression is less of a hurdle.
The way that the misogyny has surfaced in gay men who have these issues makes me believe that if we were to obtain full civil equality, the G would not address the misogyny and bias that women/lesbians live under; they would join straight men on top of the power heap. But that’s just my view (and I’m not applying it to all gay men, mind you, but men like Gold who are prematurely feeling so close to equality that they have little space for questioning their misogyny.
It’s also why I believe that there’s more misogyny and tension between gay men and lesbians in metro enclaves where we are closer to equality and tend to segregate socially because of the safety in numbers.
In Red areas, you see more socialization and solidarity among LGBTs who need to support and stick together under heavy social oppression.
Quite a few of them would be anti- gay marriage lesbians?The ones who feel that marriage is a tool of privilege for the patriarchy and so they’re against all marriage (gay and straight)?
Well…that would be only 1 of their signature positions.
Yeah, I’ve met a few of those…
I think this is true
And I have defintely noticed that self-segregation here in Chicago where gay men and lesbians pretty much have their own ‘hoods.
I also think that there may be less classism among LGBTs in Red areas too…
Now race, that’s a little trickier…
And don’t forget David ReimerWhen his penis was disfigured in a circumcision gone horribly wrong, Professional Expert John Money convinced his parents that he’d be better off being raised as a girl. So off came the bits, on went the dresses, and she lived happily ever after. Except he didn’t. He never really believed he was a girl, and when he was older and discovered the truth he transitioned back to male. But after a lifetime of misidentification, the damage was done and he took his own life.
The problem was that he was never transsexual in the first place. His life was ruined when other people decided for him how his life should be lived. Even if you can’t articulate your situation when you’re young, if you are trans, you know it. If you are gay, you know it. If you are straight you know it. If you are cis, you know it. It’s up to you and me to live our own lives, and not let ourselves be talked down to by self-appointed, self-satisfied loudmouths who clearly have their own issues to deal with.
but if one had the right breast removedthen one could just say that they are Amazon. for Amazonians had their right breast removed so as not to interfere with the drawing of a bow.
Worse, Kevin..we were married to…(gasp)..MENApparently we can never clear off the scent of testorsterone out of our very our souls having once defiled ourselves by lying with the other gender in an unnatural fashion(get the sense that these women are the mirror image of the men of the Christian Right?)
Agreed, PamAnd it isnt always subtle.
Onc evening, at an LGBT event, we were sitting a table chattign when some men dumped their bar glasses upon the smallish top and told us, in no uncertain terms, to take the glassware to the bar for them.
Pam: For You From Wayne Dynes
He reposted Gold’s taurine scatology
I experienced trasphobia from lesbiansAnd my plight was taken to heart by a lesbian, who linked me with the reporter who did this piece.
http://www.pittsburghcitypaper…
Let’s not forget…Back in the days where Rome controlled Palestine, it was perfectly fine for the Roman Army to rape the surviving troops of the army they conquered, in order to further emasculate the losers.
This bled into Paul’s letter in Corinthians against the pagans, and thus confuses the religious right, who think Paul’s speaking for god when it’s just his opinion!
When I confront them on this the reicht can’t fathom it… they just parrot the passage… sad, really.
I think it’s safe to say hate is every LGBT community.There is antitrans sentiment in the LGB portion of the LGBT community, and there is antigay and antilesbian sentiment in the T portion of the LGBT community. And, there’s antibisexual sentiment in the LG & T portion of the LGBT community, and … etc.
I’ll go back to my Bayard Rustin quote:
I know I aim to change the minds of the broad, movable middle whose minds can be changed. It takes time — sometimes generations. But, to quote Cesar Chavez:
Best response I’ve ever heardA woman I know was roommates with a lesbian in her college days. Upon finding that out (her roommate was very open about it), her first response was to schedule shower times, times when she could have the room to herself to change, etc. The lesbian roommate just looked at her and asked, “How arrogant are YOU? Do you think I’m an animal who’s going to lose my mind and ravage your naked leg if I see it, or do think you’re just that irresistible a piece of ass? Trust me, neither one is true.”
There was no more such talk of shower schedules, etc. after that.
Amen!I would’ve done it too at about 13 if I hadn’t already known what’s entailed with SRS…
Unfortunately, I’ve never had enough income to have anything done — hormones, surgery, voice training…. nothing.
I agree, Maura!Just with all other people who were once oppressed, the nanosecond they obtain an inkling of political and/or social power, begin to act like the oppressors they so vehemently despise.
Hypocrisy reigns in all of our TLBG community. It’s time we stamp in out before we do the work of the reicht by fighting amongst ourselves.
GrrrrrrI would’ve told those bastards to go do it themselves!! You want to piss off this Domme, darling go right on ahead… I have a couple of crops laying here beside Me I would’ve loved to smack their lazy, self-centered asses with!
Standing right beside you, woman!Dead on, old gir, dead on!
Here’s the link, leave your own commenthttp://dyneslines.blogspot.com…
I’ll add that he labeled/tagged his blog entry as “gay movement censorship”.
I left the following comment:
I was uncharitablein my response to them
A subtle reminder that I was Irish and they drove a car and at the time Irish and “Car” in the same sentence carried with it a specific connotation…
The sentence was peppered with Irishisms such as “gobshite,” “banjinxed eejits,” and “feck(used in various permutations as a noun, verb, adjective and the object of a prepositional phrase–ahh, the diversity of the word)”
That is just twistedShame on them, Jessi
At least the penny dropped for him.and good for you
It seems like, deep downthey want to be ogled. I’ve noticed that even when we don’t take a metaphorical shotgun to their ego, they act insulted when informed that, no, we are not interested in sleeping with them.
Is anyone talking to the non-activists and youth?I’m a mingler. I tend to read a wide variety of forums and blogs…not only the separate L, G, B and T ones, but the anti-gay straight ones too. This is a multi-pronged problem. There are information gaps not only between L, G, B and Ts, but between generations and also between the more activist minded among us and the ones that are just interested in Lady Gaga and Adam Lambert.
I’ve found there’s transphobia among young lesbians who aren’t any wave of feminist. We have a generation of gay youth who no longer have to go find an LGBT community center to talk about their issues. They just congregate online in pop culture/entertainment forums and trade misinformation (dumb theories they came up with on their own sitting in class or whatever). And there usually aren’t any older LGBT mentors to correct them.
Oddly enough, the transphobia isn’t directed towards FTMs or MTFs in these forums. Rather, it’s towards genderqueers, butch dykes, and effeminate gay guys. They can’t understand why those people don’t just transition. Nothing like coming home to a lesbian forum and seeing a bunch of lesbian teens and 20-somethings talking about how gross butch women are.
And while everyone is hyperfocused on issues related to transitioning, someone is going to have to go back around afterward and explain that “gender is between your ears” does not mean that masculine women secretly want to be men and effeminate men secretly want to be women. Again.
How many times are we going to invent the wheel?
I’m not trying to divert attention. But this is cyclical. We’re chasing our tails. Everyone’s focused on the awful things Ronald Gold said about transitioning and not addressing that he lumped two groups together that face some issues that overlap, and some which are exclusive.
Some transphobia is spawned by effeminate gay men and masculine gay women who get worn down on explaining that they don’t secretly want to be the opposite sex. Likewise, some heterosexual transfolks get worn down on explaining that they’re not gay people trying to become straight by transitioning (and yes, some homophobia manifests from that.)
Misandry?Is it misandry if I don’t want to be a man? It’s not all about hate and fear. It’s also about identity. It bothers me when people insist I just want to be a man or am trying to be a man because I’m attracted to women and I’m not feminine.
Are the extreme cases the majority? And are the more moderate cases of aversion actually fueled by a general fear of mistaken identity and a desire to be understood?
HahaThis is exactly how I think they think about it. When I come out to a straight guy and I can tell they are having issues, one way that I alleviate it to start discourse is saying, “Oh don’t worry, I pitch, I don’t catch.” Immediately they calm down a bit. It seems to up my status in their head enough that they will listen to what I have to say. Then I can start to change their minds a little.
Right sentimate, but too small a targethate is in every community
and we all were raised with it as common as oxygen.
You can do your best to block those thoughts, stop saying those hateful words, and curb actions that demonstrate hate.
but it’s still there.
I amWhich is why what I’ve been working on has a specific purpose and will cover a lot of that in the future.
It starts off with the little stuff, but moves a lot farther into it.
If we, as a larger group, really are going to achieve the degree of tolerance and the expression of individual rights in society that we seek, then, in the end, we have to teach those who are not part of our little world of letters about all of us.
And To teach them effectively, we have to teach ourselves first.
Questionable ReasoningYour right dyssonance,the onething that suprised me when I told everyone I’m a transwoman was learning that the gay community look down on me.
After years of hiding and denying myself and finally getting the courage to be myself,I thought the gay community would be the one that would understand if any.
When I heard or read remarks that some in the gay community just thought transpeople were people who couldn’t accept being gay I couldn’t believe it.I thought they understood the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity and I couldn’t believe some of them discriminated againist me.
All these years the gay community was upset with society for not accepting them for who they are and simply wanting equal rights yet they do the samething by discriminating againist me.Demonstrating their lack of knowledge and understanding that sexual oreintation is a different issue then gender identity.One being sexual activity between two individuals and the other about self-being.
Hating and discriminating againist someone for what they know and believe is onething but hating and discriminating againist someone without having the proper knowledge and information demonstrates a lack of intelligence.
Either way if one believes in freedom and justice for all they have to allow an individual to live their life with the same rights and freedoms as everyone else.
Coming outOne of the first few people I came out to, within the first few days of coming out to myself, was a gay man I knew.
I hadn’t yet done anything except schedule a first appointment and learn the basic rules for where I was headed — I’m talking the earliest part of one’s start.
And he looked at me and berated me for wanting to cut it off and said many other nasty things as well regarding us.
So I didn’t have that expectation, the slight hint of privilege that comes from thinking of another people as accepting.
I’m multiracial — for me, that sort of thing has existed since I first met other people. I’m not limited by tht expectation hat just because someone sufers that they should understand the suffering of others.
It’s a false recognition. Racially, all three of my groups have been cruel to me. As a trans person, gay men, lesbians, bisexual peeps, and worst of all of them, other trans people have been far crueler to me.
I know the stuff I wrote is true because I started from place of it not being there, and I experimented and I examined and I worked hard, and it comes from all that intersecting pain and trouble and heartache.
Some of which I talk about here: http://www.bilerico.com/2009/1…
and here: http://www.bilerico.com/2009/1…
And so, right now, at this point in my life, for me to stay engaged, to stay in the fight – that takes constant effort.
Time’s like this, they just make it harder.
Can I just add a thought…I am not so sure that it is just the screwer and screwee argument that drives transphobia in men, I think that on some level men see the power and privilege that comes with being a man and it is confrontational to their sensibilities and upbringing as to why any man would want to cede that power to become a woman. We all know that in this world we live in some men still do not see women as equal, but as less than.
I think some men see masculine lesbians more on par with themselves and as an equal because they are dominant and they can at least identify with that on some level. We live in a word that teaches children “the rules” unwritten but we are taught this shorthand from the day we understand language both verbal and body, when we realize what disappointment means and can see it on the faces of our parents.
One common thread that everyone in the LGBT community has in common is that we are all taught that being different is bad and we are all taught that because it has been taught that way for thousands of years. I am sure there are cultures where I am wrong on that but I mean it as a generalization about society.
It has less to do with anxiety about penis amputation and more to do with the “Logic Bomb” that Dissonance mentions above which I think comes from the whole male power and privilege issue. Just my thoughts and for the record this GWM has never once stopped to think about what was below the waist of any MTF that I have ever met. Too be honest I just have treated people as whatever gender they appeared to identify with.
I really think that there are many GWM’s like me who celebrate women and see them as powerful and awe inspiring. Yet unfortunately there are a few bad apples who hold more of a straight guy mentality. Just know that not all of us GWM’s are idiots.
What do I know?Enough that I’ve already educated several gay and straight allies today because an older, well known and respected person in my teeny tiny county just came out a transwoman, and then came out as a lesbian.
But at the end of it I always say it’s not about the science. She’s transitioning, she says she’s a woman and a lesbian and you need to take her word for it. People shouldn’t need chromosome results and brain scans or scientific evidence for others to have faith in them.
And I’ll keep doing this despite the few transfolks that make sweeping generalizations about LGB folks.
Gay and trans were once one in the same. ONE IN THE SAME COMMUNITY. Our history is not separate.
Questionable reasoningdyssonance,I never expected anyone to understand or accept my situation or circumstances.I just felt that if anybody could it would be the gay community.
Being your multiracial I can see how things could be alot more complicated for you.I wish you best.
I was a young kid back in the “60′s and didn’t understand why their was racism towards black people,afterall we’re all human being and I still don’t understand why it still goes on,except that I know theirs always a group or organization that for some reason have a false superiority complex thinking they are better then others.
GrrrlRomeo,you say “Gay and trans were once one in the same.ONE IN THE SAME COMMUNITY.Our history is not separate.”
In one sense your right,the trans.and gay communties have been fighting and struggling for equal rights and freedoms together.The history of our struggle is the same however we are not one in the same.The GLB struggle is about equal rights regardless of sexual orientation whereas the trans community is about self-being and gender.
If we were one in the same the APA would have included transsexualism when they took off homosexuality as a mental illness back in 1979.
As I stated before homosexuality is about sexual orientation which is activity between two individuals whereas transsexualism is about the gender of ones self-being.Which are two different issues.
I wish the GLB community would stop and realize that and stop judging and discriminating againist the transsexual community as the hetro community does againist them all because they give the impression that they suffer from a lack of knowledge and understanding as the hetro do about them.
It has been said over the years and history has proven that those being oppressed can and may become the oppressors.I find it sad to say that I and others in the trans.community have found this to be true.
Hopefully oneday humanity will learn that no one is better then another and that when it comes down to civil rights it’s not a womens issue like back in the “20s or a race issue like in the “60′s.It’s a human issue of common decency towards one another.
Misanthropy is the condition, but . . . . . . I don’t think that’s what you’re describing.
There is a difference between not wanting to be a man, and despising men. I don’t want to be a man, either, even though I tried for a long time to meet those expectations. There are people who still think it makes no sense for me to have transitioned because I am attracted to women and I was assigned male at birth.
I agree that identity is a major factor for you and me – not needing or wanting to be men, for very different reasons. But neither of us are misanthropic, really, even if I sometimes have a sympathy for a variation on some radical feminist thought (not, however, the trans-bashing parts).
It may well be that some of the worst oppressors could be suppressing their own orientational or identity challenges. But that’s not something I can readily perceive, though there was a study or two done on relative penis turgidity when men were exposed to pictures of attrative people in the nude. Those whose answers to an earlier survey marked them as homophobic had an increased turgidity when exposed to photos of naked men.
Macho men generally see themselves as macho regardless of who they penetrate, as long as they are doing the penetrating. To them, anyone who gets penetrated is less than a man – regardless of whether the penetratee is a woman or a man. In their minds, there is power involved in being the active penetrator.
The closest equivalent on the female side is the misanthropic radical feminist notion that holds that, for example, “all men are rapists.”