THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
____________________________________________________________
December 10, 2009
Remarks of President Barack Obama – As Prepared for Delivery
A Just and Lasting Peace
Acceptance of the Nobel Peace Prize
Thursday, December 10th, 2009Oslo, Norway
Your Majesties, Your Royal Highnesses, Distinguished Members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee, citizens of America, and citizens of the world:
I receive this honor with deep gratitude and great humility. It is an award that speaks to our highest aspirations – that for all the cruelty and hardship of our world, we are not mere prisoners of fate. Our actions matter, and can bend history in the direction of justice.
And yet I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the considerable controversy that your generous decision has generated. In part, this is because I am at the beginning, and not the end, of my labors on the world stage. Compared to some of the giants of history who have received this prize – Schweitzer and King; Marshall and Mandela – my accomplishments are slight. And then there are the men and women around the world who have been jailed and beaten in the pursuit of justice; those who toil in humanitarian organizations to relieve suffering; the unrecognized millions whose quiet acts of courage and compassion inspire even the most hardened of cynics. I cannot argue with those who find these men and women – some known, some obscure to all but those they help – to be far more deserving of this honor than I.
But perhaps the most profound issue surrounding my receipt of this prize is the fact that I am the Commander-in-Chief of a nation in the midst of two wars. One of these wars is winding down. The other is a conflict that America did not seek; one in which we are joined by forty three other countries – including Norway – in an effort to defend ourselves and all nations from further attacks.
Still, we are at war, and I am responsible for the deployment of thousands of young Americans to battle in a distant land. Some will kill. Some will be killed. And so I come here with an acute sense of the cost of armed conflict – filled with difficult questions about the relationship between war and peace, and our effort to replace one with the other.
These questions are not new. War, in one form or another, appeared with the first man. At the dawn of history, its morality was not questioned; it was simply a fact, like drought or disease – the manner in which tribes and then civilizations sought power and settled their differences.
He continues below the fold.
Over time, as codes of law sought to control violence within groups, so did philosophers, clerics, and statesmen seek to regulate the destructive power of war. The concept of a “just war” emerged, suggesting that war is justified only when it meets certain preconditions: if it is waged as a last resort or in self-defense; if the forced used is proportional, and if, whenever possible, civilians are spared from violence.For most of history, this concept of just war was rarely observed. The capacity of human beings to think up new ways to kill one another proved inexhaustible, as did our capacity to exempt from mercy those who look different or pray to a different God. Wars between armies gave way to wars between nations – total wars in which the distinction between combatant and civilian became blurred. In the span of thirty years, such carnage would twice engulf this continent. And while it is hard to conceive of a cause more just than the defeat of the Third Reich and the Axis powers, World War II was a conflict in which the total number of civilians who died exceeded the number of soldiers who perished.
In the wake of such destruction, and with the advent of the nuclear age, it became clear to victor and vanquished alike that the world needed institutions to prevent another World War. And so, a quarter century after the United States Senate rejected the League of Nations – an idea for which Woodrow Wilson received this Prize – America led the world in constructing an architecture to keep the peace: a Marshall Plan and a United Nations, mechanisms to govern the waging of war, treaties to protect human rights, prevent genocide, and restrict the most dangerous weapons.
In many ways, these efforts succeeded. Yes, terrible wars have been fought, and atrocities committed. But there has been no Third World War. The Cold War ended with jubilant crowds dismantling a wall. Commerce has stitched much of the world together. Billions have been lifted from poverty. The ideals of liberty, self-determination, equality and the rule of law have haltingly advanced. We are the heirs of the fortitude and foresight of generations past, and it is a legacy for which my own country is rightfully proud.
A decade into a new century, this old architecture is buckling under the weight of new threats. The world may no longer shudder at the prospect of war between two nuclear superpowers, but proliferation may increase the risk of catastrophe. Terrorism has long been a tactic, but modern technology allows a few small men with outsized rage to murder innocents on a horrific scale.
Moreover, wars between nations have increasingly given way to wars within nations. The resurgence of ethnic or sectarian conflicts; the growth of secessionist movements, insurgencies, and failed states; have increasingly trapped civilians in unending chaos. In today’s wars, many more civilians are killed than soldiers; the seeds of future conflict are sewn, economies are wrecked, civil societies torn asunder, refugees amassed, and children scarred.
I do not bring with me today a definitive solution to the problems of war. What I do know is that meeting these challenges will require the same vision, hard work, and persistence of those men and women who acted so boldly decades ago. And it will require us to think in new ways about the notions of just war and the imperatives of a just peace.
We must begin by acknowledging the hard truth that we will not eradicate violent conflict in our lifetimes. There will be times when nations – acting individually or in concert – will find the use of force not only necessary but morally justified.
I make this statement mindful of what Martin Luther King said in this same ceremony years ago – “Violence never brings permanent peace. It solves no social problem: it merely creates new and more complicated ones.” As someone who stands here as a direct consequence of Dr. King’s life’s work, I am living testimony to the moral force of non-violence. I know there is nothing weak
nothing passivenothing naïve – in the creed and lives of Gandhi and King.But as a head of state sworn to protect and defend my nation, I cannot be guided by their examples alone. I face the world as it is, and cannot stand idle in the face of threats to the American people. For make no mistake: evil does exist in the world. A non-violent movement could not have halted Hitler’s armies. Negotiations cannot convince al Qaeda’s leaders to lay down their arms. To say that force is sometimes necessary is not a call to cynicism – it is a recognition of history; the imperfections of man and the limits of reason.
I raise this point because in many countries there is a deep ambivalence about military action today, no matter the cause. At times, this is joined by a reflexive suspicion of America, the world’s sole military superpower.
Yet the world must remember that it was not simply international institutions – not just treaties and declarations – that brought stability to a post-World War II world. Whatever mistakes we have made, the plain fact is this: the United States of America has helped underwrite global security for more than six decades with the blood of our citizens and the strength of our arms. The service and sacrifice of our men and women in uniform has promoted peace and prosperity from Germany to Korea, and enabled democracy to take hold in places like the Balkans. We have borne this burden not because we seek to impose our will. We have done so out of enlightened self-interest – because we seek a better future for our children and grandchildren, and we believe that their lives will be better if other peoples’ children and grandchildren can live in freedom and prosperity.
So yes, the instruments of war do have a role to play in preserving the peace. And yet this truth must coexist with another – that no matter how justified, war promises human tragedy. The soldier’s courage and sacrifice is full of glory, expressing devotion to country, to cause and to comrades in arms. But war itself is never glorious, and we must never trumpet it as such.
So part of our challenge is reconciling these two seemingly irreconcilable truths – that war is sometimes necessary, and war is at some level an expression of human feelings. Concretely, we must direct our effort to the task that President Kennedy called for long ago. “Let us focus,” he said, “on a more practical, more attainable peace, based not on a sudden revolution in human nature but on a gradual evolution in human institutions.”
What might this evolution look like? What might these practical steps be?
To begin with, I believe that all nations – strong and weak alike – must adhere to standards that govern the use of force. I – like any head of state – reserve the right to act unilaterally if necessary to defend my nation. Nevertheless, I am convinced that adhering to standards strengthens those who do, and isolates – and weakens – those who don’t.
The world rallied around America after the 9/11 attacks, and continues to support our efforts in Afghanistan, because of the horror of those senseless attacks and the recognized principle of self-defense. Likewise, the world recognized the need to confront Saddam Hussein when he invaded Kuwait – a consensus that sent a clear message to all about the cost of aggression.
Furthermore, America cannot insist that others follow the rules of the road if we refuse to follow them ourselves. For when we don’t, our action can appear arbitrary, and undercut the legitimacy of future intervention – no matter how justified.
This becomes particularly important when the purpose of military action extends beyond self defense or the defense of one nation against an aggressor. More and more, we all confront difficult questions about how to prevent the slaughter of civilians by their own government, or to stop a civil war whose violence and suffering can engulf an entire region.
I believe that force can be justified on humanitarian grounds, as it was in the Balkans, or in other places that have been scarred by war. Inaction tears at our conscience and can lead to more costly intervention later. That is why all responsible nations must embrace the role that militaries with a clear mandate can play to keep the peace.
America’s commitment to global security will never waiver. But in a world in which threats are more diffuse, and missions more complex, America cannot act alone. This is true in Afghanistan. This is true in failed states like Somalia, where terrorism and piracy is joined by famine and human suffering. And sadly, it will continue to be true in unstable regions for years to come.
The leaders and soldiers of NATO countries – and other friends and allies – demonstrate this truth through the capacity and courage they have shown in Afghanistan. But in many countries, there is a disconnect between the efforts of those who serve and the ambivalence of the broader public. I understand why war is not popular. But I also know this: the belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it. Peace requires responsibility. Peace entails sacrifice. That is why NATO continues to be indispensable. That is why we must strengthen UN and regional peacekeeping, and not leave the task to a few countries. That is why we honor those who return home from peacekeeping and training abroad to Oslo and Rome; to Ottawa and Sydney; to Dhaka and Kigali – we honor them not as makers of war, but as wagers of peace.
Let me make one final point about the use of force. Even as we make difficult decisions about going to war, we must also think clearly about how we fight it. The Nobel Committee recognized this truth in awarding its first prize for peace to Henry Dunant – the founder of the Red Cross, and a driving force behind the Geneva Conventions.
Where force is necessary, we have a moral and strategic interest in binding ourselves to certain rules of conduct. And even as we confront a vicious adversary that abides by no rules, I believe that the United States of America must remain a standard bearer in the conduct of war. That is what makes us different from those whom we fight. That is a source of our strength. That is why I prohibited torture. That is why I ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed. And that is why I have reaffirmed America’s commitment to abide by the Geneva Conventions. We lose ourselves when we compromise the very ideals that we fight to defend. And we honor those ideals by upholding them not just when it is easy, but when it is hard.
I have spoken to the questions that must weigh on our minds and our hearts as we choose to wage war. But let me turn now to our effort to avoid such tragic choices, and speak of three ways that we can build a just and lasting peace.
First, in dealing with those nations that break rules and laws, I believe that we must develop alternatives to violence that are tough enough to change behavior – for if we want a lasting peace, then the words of the international community must mean something. Those regimes that break the rules must be held accountable. Sanctions must exact a real price. Intransigence must be met with increased pressure – and such pressure exists only when the world stands together as one.
One urgent example is the effort to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons, and to seek a world without them. In the middle of the last century, nations agreed to be bound by a treaty whose bargain is clear: all will have access to peaceful nuclear power; those without nuclear weapons will forsake them; and those with nuclear weapons will work toward disarmament. I am committed to upholding this treaty. It is a centerpiece of my foreign policy. And I am working with President Medvedev to reduce America and Russia’s nuclear stockpiles.
But it is also incumbent upon all of us to insist that nations like Iran and North Korea do not game the system. Those who claim to respect international law cannot avert their eyes when those laws are flouted. Those who care for their own security cannot ignore the danger of an arms race in the Middle East or East Asia. Those who seek peace cannot stand idly by as nations arm themselves for nuclear war.
The same principle applies to those who violate international law by brutalizing their own people. When there is genocide in Darfur; systematic rape in Congo; or repression in Burma – there must be consequences. And the closer we stand together, the less likely we will be faced with the choice between armed intervention and complicity in oppression.
This brings me to a second point – the nature of the peace that we seek. For peace is not merely the absence of visible conflict. Only a just peace based upon the inherent rights and dignity of every individual can truly be lasting.
It was this insight that drove drafters of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights after the Second World War. In the wake of devastation, they recognized that if human rights are not protected, peace is a hollow promise.
And yet all too often, these words are ignored. In some countries, the failure to uphold human rights is excused by the false suggestion that these are Western principles, foreign to local cultures or stages of a nation’s development. And within America, there has long been a tension between those who describe themselves as realists or idealists – a tension that suggests a stark choice between the narrow pursuit of interests or an endless campaign to impose our values.
I reject this choice. I believe that peace is unstable where citizens are denied the right to speak freely or worship as they please; choose their own leaders or assemble without fear. Pent up grievances fester, and the suppression of tribal and religious identity can lead to violence. We also know that the opposite is true. Only when Europe became free did it finally find peace. America has never fought a war against a democracy, and our closest friends are governments that protect the rights of their citizens. No matter how callously defined, neither America’s interests – nor the world’s -are served by the denial of human aspirations.
So even as we respect the unique culture and traditions of different countries, America will always be a voice for those aspirations that are universal. We will bear witness to the quiet dignity of reformers like Aung Sang Suu Kyi; to the bravery of Zimbabweans who cast their ballots in the face of beatings; to the hundreds of thousands who have marched silently through the streets of Iran. It is telling that the leaders of these governments fear the aspirations of their own people more than the power of any other nation. And it is the responsibility of all free people and free nations to make clear to these movements that hope and history are on their side
Let me also say this: the promotion of human rights cannot be about exhortation alone. At times, it must be coupled with painstaking diplomacy. I know that engagement with repressive regimes lacks the satisfying purity of indignation. But I also know that sanctions without outreach – and condemnation without discussion – can carry forward a crippling status quo. No repressive regime can move down a new path unless it has the choice of an open door.
In light of the Cultural Revolution’s horrors, Nixon’s meeting with Mao appeared inexcusable – and yet it surely helped set China on a path where millions of its citizens have been lifted from poverty, and connected to open societies. Pope John Paul’s engagement with Poland created space not just for the Catholic Church, but for labor leaders like Lech Walesa. Ronald Reagan’s efforts on arms control and embrace of perestroika not only improved relations with the Soviet Union, but empowered dissidents throughout Eastern Europe. There is no simple formula here. But we must try as best we can to balance isolation and engagement; pressure and incentives, so that human rights and dignity are advanced over time.
Third, a just peace includes not only civil and political rights – it must encompass economic security and opportunity. For true peace is not just freedom from fear, but freedom from want.
It is undoubtedly true that development rarely takes root without security; it is also true that security does not exist where human beings do not have access to enough food, or clean water, or the medicine they need to survive. It does not exist where children cannot aspire to a decent education or a job that supports a family. The absence of hope can rot a society from within.
And that is why helping farmers feed their own people – or nations educate their children and care for the sick – is not mere charity. It is also why the world must come together to confront climate change. There is little scientific dispute that if we do nothing, we will face more drought, famine and mass displacement that will fuel more conflict for decades. For this reason, it is not merely scientists and activists who call for swift and forceful action – it is military leaders in my country and others who understand that our common security hangs in the balance.
Agreements among nations. Strong institutions. Support for human rights. Investments in development. All of these are vital ingredients in bringing about the evolution that President Kennedy spoke about. And yet, I do not believe that we will have the will, or the staying power, to complete this work without something more – and that is the continued expansion of our moral imagination; an insistence that there is something irreducible that we all share.
As the world grows smaller, you might think it would be easier for human beings to recognize how similar we are; to understand that we all basically want the same things; that we all hope for the chance to live out our lives with some measure of happiness and fulfillment for ourselves and our families.
And yet, given the dizzying pace of globalization, and the cultural leveling of modernity, it should come as no surprise that people fear the loss of what they cherish about their particular identities – their race, their tribe, and perhaps most powerfully their religion. In some places, this fear has led to conflict. At times, it even feels like we are moving backwards. We see it in Middle East, as the conflict between Arabs and Jews seems to harden. We see it in nations that are torn asunder by tribal lines.
Most dangerously, we see it in the way that religion is used to justify the murder of innocents by those who have distorted and defiled the great religion of Islam, and who attacked my country from Afghanistan. These extremists are not the first to kill in the name of God; the cruelties of the Crusades are amply recorded. But they remind us that no Holy War can ever be a just war. For if you truly believe that you are carrying out divine will, then there is no need for restraint – no need to spare the pregnant mother, or the medic, or even a person of one’s own faith. Such a warped view of religion is not just incompatible with the concept of peace, but the purpose of faith – for the one rule that lies at the heart of every major religion is that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us.
Adhering to this law of love has always been the core struggle of human nature. We are fallible. We make mistakes, and fall victim to the temptations of pride, and power, and sometimes evil. Even those of us with the best intentions will at times fail to right the wrongs before us.
But we do not have to think that human nature is perfect for us to still believe that the human condition can be perfected. We do not have to live in an idealized world to still reach for those ideals that will make it a better place. The non-violence practiced by men like Gandhi and King may not have been practical or possible in every circumstance, but the love that they preached – their faith in human progress – must always be the North Star that guides us on our journey.
For if we lose that faith – if we dismiss it as silly or naïve; if we divorce it from the decisions that we make on issues of war and peace – then we lose what is best about humanity. We lose our sense of possibility. We lose our moral compass.
Like generations have before us, we must reject that future. As Dr. King said at this occasion so many years ago, “I refuse to accept despair as the final response to the ambiguities of history. I refuse to accept the idea that the ‘isness’ of man’s present nature makes him morally incapable of reaching up for the eternal ‘oughtness’ that forever confronts him.”
So let us reach for the world that ought to be – that spark of the divine that still stirs within each of our souls. Somewhere today, in the here and now, a soldier sees he’s outgunned but stands firm to keep the peace. Somewhere today, in this world, a young protestor awaits the brutality of her government, but has the courage to march on. Somewhere today, a mother facing punishing poverty still takes the time to teach her child, who believes that a cruel world still has a place for his dreams.
Let us live by their example. We can acknowledge that oppression will always be with us, and still strive for justice. We can admit the intractability of depravation, and still strive for dignity. We can understand that there will be war, and still strive for peace. We can do that – for that is the story of human progress; that is the hope of all the world; and at this moment of challenge, that must be our work here on Earth.
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28 Comments





UMMM, unless you are Gay or Lesbian
Then it is OK to let your religion stand in the way. God is in the Mix if you may recall. The same crap he was condemning he practices.
Not again will I vote for him. Fierce Advocate my A$$, on not just on LGBT issues.
I’m not a fan of Obamaheaven knows I’m not – and so does anyone who has read pretty much anything I’ve written about him on here. But….
Afghanistan has to be stabilized. Russia broke it, we helped, and if it isn’t stabilized we’re going to wind up exactly where we were in 2001. I know, not a popular belief, and it doesn’t “get our troops out NOW”, but it’s what I believe. The surge in Afghanistan is one of the very few things he’s done that I support.
However, my support for him on this one thing doesn’t outweigh my lack of support for him on… well, everything else. Bad President, no vote for you…
Great speech, as usual
Now can his Administration live up to this in places where, as HappyCat says, “god is in the mix.” Like Uganda for example.
Pretty words…from President Obama they always are. And of course, governing and providing leadership is a lot more difficult than soaring political rhetoric. But just because something is difficult doen’t mean that you don’t do it.
ASHES
Forty years later, stuck in sand instead of mud, same war with a different name…rather than apples of wisdom in another pasted together reach for eloquence and majesty that exceeds his grasp, accepting an award he does not deserve, there are ashes in Obama’s mouth just as there are when he speaks of fighting for just and lasting LGBT equality while continuing to discharge gay servicemembers every day, while telling relgio-fascist media “as a Christian, I’m constantly wrestling with my faith and my solicitude and regard and concern for gays and lesbians,” while exhibiting no evidence of the promise of putting the “weight of my administration behind” urging states to treat gay couples fairly and the passage of LGBT-affirming legislation, and while attacking lawsuits and efforts in Congress that would limit or end DOMA and DADT.
So I can no longer listen to or read what he says; it is like ashes in my ears and in my eyes.
Adding to the fact that he intentionally and shamefully lies by omission when he trumpets withdrawing troops from Iraq or limiting increases in Afghanistan while remaining silent about the some 200,000 paid mercenaries between those two countries in his other hand including some accused of murder and child prostitution…adding to the fact that with one hand he picks General McChrystal to direct the war in Afghanistan while holding in his other the fact that he’s suspending American lives on McChrystal’s integrity and credibility that are, at best, questionable given he was recommended for discipline by the Pentagon itself for involvement in the coverup of the true nature of the death of Pat Tillman and has been associated with the illegal torture of countless people in Iraq…is the fact that no less an expert on such wars and Pentagon political tactics than Pentagon Papers-famous Daniel Ellsberg has warned that:
1: it’s hopeless for a foreign nation to prevail in such a situation, but there is no way we could even imagine controlling Afghanistan without injecting hundreds of thousands of troops.
2. Obama is going against his own instincts because he is afraid of a “public military revolt” before next year’s midterms-much as Bill Clinton had his legs cut off by the public opposition of Chair of the Joint Chiefs Gen. Colin Powell to lifting the military ban on gays in 1992-3. McChrystal replayed Powell’s game weeks ago by publicly declaring what “had to be done” in Afghanistan rather than just advising his Commander-in-Chief in private.
I urge everyone to watch this recent Ellsberg interview, but I warn you: it’s full of ashes.
For those too young to remember/know about Vietnam/Ellsberg: here’s a taste from the trailer for a new documentary.
Nope. Not Buying It, BarryObama’s escalation of the Afghanistan war rendered his Nobel Peace prize a fraud. I am embarrassed for him and I am embarrassed as an American.
The US and the USSRbroke Afghanistan together. Even before the USSR invaded Afghanistan, the US already had a plan in place to support the muhajideen, to deliberately draw the USSR in. The US wanted to make Afghanistan the USSR’s Vietnam.
It is grandly ironical that 30 years on, Afghanistan is now becoming the US’s Vietnam.
You want to actually stabilise Afghanistan? Stop propping up a government that isn’t democratically representative of the civilians, and whose supporters threaten women who disagree with them with rape. Stop bombing civilians to bits of bloody meat. Stop spending humongous amounts of money on bombs, bombs, bombs, on killing, killing, killing, and spend much more money on schools, hospitals, markets, power plants.
When will the militarists learn that foreign soldiers cannot forcibly “stabilise” another country against the will of the civilians?
And when will those who support the militarists ever learn that the goal of the militarists is never “staibilisation” but rather supporting a puppet government that will bend over and grab its ankles when the foreign militarists say fuck.
With Afghanistan, Obama is betweena rock and a hard place.
Not only is Afghanistan a problem, but Pakistan is a real problem, especially since that’s where al-Queda seems to be.
And Afghanistan is the real war that should have been fought from the get go, not Iraq. Now I will be critical with Obama about Iraq, but on Afghanistan, I have to gicve him a pass for now.
Then what do you do at this point?Simply leave Afghanistan to its’ own devices? Been there and did that after the Soviets left and you see what happened.
A good speech is you like liesA great speech if you want to feel warm and fuzzy that America has finally gotten rid of Bush.
A piss poor speech if you actually want the truth.
Just one example,
America’s closest friends are governments that protect the rights of their citizens? Really?
He freaking dares to say that, he freaking dares to mention Iran in the next breath !!11!!! Yes, I’m freaking sure that the Shah of Iran was protecting his citizens by torturing them. Yes, I’m freaking sure that the Shah of Iran did not fear the own aspirations of his people.
But that was in the past. Let’s look forward and not look back on that dark chapter. OK.
What about Honduras, oh champion of democracy and human rights?
Read my post
Even BEFORE the escalation, US civilian spending in Afghanistan was about 5% of US military spending in Afghanistan.
Give reasons for the Afghans to see Americansto see Brits, to see Germans, to see the West, as friends, not foreign occupation forces.
Spend much more on civilians things, on schools, on markets, on hospitals, on roads, on power plants, and much less on military bases, on detention and torture, on walled compounds for foreign aid workers feeding off the invasion trough.
This is dangerously naive nonesensethat carefully avoids the reality on the ground. You don’t get to spend time and money building roads bridges and schools until there is a large enough secrutiy space to do such things.
You cannot rebuild a country if there is no security and only the most ignorant and naive individuals who know nothing about life in unstable countries would make such a claim.
Pulling out forces pre maturely does nothing to create safe spaces for civilians to begin the process of rebuilding. Even the UN won’t stick around if their aid workers are getting bombed and shot at.
Unless there are troops on the gound protecting all of those new schoos and markets that you’re advocating be built, they will remain empty because no one in their right mind would use something that is nothing but an obvious target.
Nation Building, in other wordsHmm..
I think back to the Bush/neocon bullshit about invading Iraq so that freedom could spread through the Middle East.
Not that I ever bought that but I had to ask myself, did they really want freedom and democracy in the Middle East.
Then Hamas got elected in Gaza…which pretty much proved my point.
I gues my question here is how do you get to theoint where the Afghan people can democratically elect a government that is representative of it’s citizens.
I don’t particularly care for Karzai. But some of the alternatives, at least at the present time, are even more frightening.
“theoint” s/b “the point”
Somehow you repeat words without understanding them…The US’ closest friends and allies…the countries that the US is most likely to trust and least likely to engage in military hostilities ARE all democracies.
Say what you will about the Shah, but he was an ally of convienience much as is Saudi Arabia or Iraq in the past. No one in Washington really trusts the Saudis but they are considered better than the alternative.
Agreed 100%Now if the Bush Administrration had spent less time chasing Sadaam Hussein around in Iraq and propping up Musharraf in Pakistan, we might be at the point where Afghanistan was a secure enough place where all of this infrastructure could be done. We are not there now and the Taliban still controls much of the country.
Truthfully…No one really cares if the Afghans get a viable democracy. What the US, NATO and the UN want is stability.
Democracy is nice if you can get it, but the only thing we really want is a region that is quiet. We want an Afghanistan that has a government that will not tolerate terrorism and will generally not be a threat to any other part of the world. This is called realism.
Neo-conservatives are called jaded liberals for a reason. They take the Wilsonian view of the word liberal as the spreading of democracy…they just reject the idea that it takes time and is messy. They think that democracy can be imposed and is easy.
An international idealist want great powers to do “something” about human rights abuses in China, Sudan, Uganda etc. Most have no real idea what “something” actually involves since many oppose both sanctions, armed force or really ANY coercive measures. They just want “something” done.
An International liberal holds all the beliefs of the idealist except that they acknowledge that coersion is sometimes necessary. Some think that coersion is the ONLY way to make humanitarian change. Just they blunder into conflicts for ostensibly good reasons without respecting the consequences for everyone involved. These are the people that kick over the ant hill and damn the consequences.
A realist recognizes that countries have interests and that there are not allways good choices so you make the best one that fits your interests. Realists prefer stability/ the status quo above all else. We support actions that best serve to keep the overall environment from falling apart
Hence why I played the “Gaza card”I could have played the “Lebanon card” as well.
Or even the “Russia card.”
And let’s not even get into Tito’s Yugoslavia.
Agreed
Well, do it your non-naive way then.Just like it was tried in Vietnam. Afghanistan is going to be Obama’s and the Democrats Vietnam.
Yes, actual nation buildingWhich can be very unpleasant, such as the election of people that you might not like, by those civilians.
Actual nation building isn’t the installation of a puppet government that asks how high when you say jump.
Yes, neo-realismThat is why in international relations, despite all the rationalisations, despite all the protestations of the liberals, there is little difference between the (neo)liberals and the (neo)conservatives.
It is why Democrat or Republican, the acts are very similar.
I’m sure that neo-realists such as you also supported the invasion of Vietnam, the Shah of Iran, Augusto Pinochet, various other dictators that were propped up by the US.
Somehow I notice that you chose not to address the second paragraph that I quoted and Honduras.
Somehow, I notice that you chose not to address Obama’s selective bearing of witness.
Neo-realism? Fine. Admit it. Admit that you are a neo-realist. Don’t pretend that Obama is a voice for those aspirations that are universal. And stop pretending that Obama respects the cultures and traditions of other countries.
Of all the things in this speech that made me gag,Obama’s quip about “enlightened self-interest” really wins the prize. What on earth was “enlightened” about all the lies used to manipulate us into the Iraq war? Where is the “enlightened self-interest” in invading a country that has never done a thing to us? Where is the enlightenment is using white phosphorus in Basra and elsewhere? What possible “self-interest” could the United States have in carpet-bombing Afghan wedding parties? Where is the enlightenment in sacrificing our troops to prop up and admittedly corrupt government?
We have invaded South Asia to further the “enlightened self-interest” of “enlightened” oil companies–a policy Obama wholeheartedly endorses–and for no other discernible reason. Giving Obama a peace prize is like giving the pope an award for protecting children.
We tried “nation-building” in Vietnam?And here I thought we went in specifically to combat the “Soviet threat” of the “domino effect” when “invited” by a government we helped install. And Vietnam never attacked us on our turf…
Turns out we misread the situation entirely. Didn’t think we were big into building roads, bridges, schools, and government institutions at the time either, unless my history profs and vets in my family lied to me.
And we sure as hell were not “invited” by the Taliban into Afghanistan in 2001. Or by Hussein in 2003, for that matter.
So really, not the same thing.
Well, count me as one of thosewho didn’t think that Obama deserved the Nobel.
I noted too that he didn’t mention Iraq…which is ironic because his opposition to the Iraq war is the reason why he is President.
Bingo
Moving this up ….
…as it addresses so many of these issues by an EXPERT on both “counter insurgency” wars by foreign powers: Daniel Ellsberg, who helped stop the war in Vietnam by risking federal prison in order to leak “the Pentagon Papers” to the press. He details why Afghanistan = Vietnam with FACTS not just rhetorical flourishes.