(NOTE: Joe Solmonese will be on The Michelangelo Signorile Show at 4:30 PM ET.)
Surf over to read Adam Bink’s “The Scary Rich White Gays,” an interesting, if off-the-mark response to my post, “HRC’s Solmonese: dinner attendees ‘more politically aware’, have ‘better sense of what’s at stake,” and Autumn’s “We Get The LGBT Diversity Of Media Contact Lists.”
As I said earlier the primary problem with the assessment of my post is that it alludes to statements or beliefs that are simply not in my post, but do occur in the comments. I don’t have a lot of those kinds of conversations where a reader conflates my views with that of those in the comments as much these days as I did a couple of years ago; it seems to happen more when the subject matter is controversial and people get riled up. Anyway, I thought I’d take a stab at clarifying the situation, since Adam’s post doesn’t make any distinction between the author and commenters. Before we begin, you’ll see references to Rich White Gays (RWG) as an acronym used by Adam. I’ll use it for simplicity’s sake.
Nowhere in my post do I say all the HRC leadership, membership, or attendees of the annual dinner are all RWGs. However, that it is a factual statement the largest demographic that populated the dinner was RWGs. Offense seems to be taken for even making the observation, nor is the post specifically about condemning RWGs, it’s about broadening attendance to be more inclusive in the wake of Joe Solmonese’s statement to CNN’s Don Lemon.
[W]e’re the largest LBGT organization in the country with nearly a million members. Most of them are small donors and supporters all over the country. And so, I think we absolutely represent the LBGT community.But I think that — as Hilary mentioned last night on the show — perhaps the crowd at the dinner last night was a little bit more politically aware and had a better sense of maybe, you know, what’s at stake and what needs to be done. Because at the end of the day, what all these fights come down to — and this is where we are in this movement…
He opened the door to class and diversity in that statement that he surely didn’t mean to. If he had been more judicious and not so hell-bent on denigrating the influence or political savvy of the attendees of the NEM he may have chosen to defend the dinner and the organization in a different way. But he didn’t.
What’s curious about some of the angry responses to my post, including Adam’s, is that it’s not a zero-sum game if you add diversity; no one loses access or influence it just increases reach. And as far as trying to link any statements in the post cited (or any prior posts of mine) to violence is a particularly nasty charge to levy on me, since I have time and again stated that I detest moves like that. And I specifically called out the vandalism on HRC’s building when it occurred, before it was confirmed that it was perpetrated by a gay group. Do some of my readers/commenters feel differently — yes, some do, but that’s their opinion.
More below the fold.Adam breaks his analysis down into sections.
1. Corruption. In any discussion of financial support leading to certain policies, there should be an A->B argument, such as Max Baucus takes millions from insurance companies->his doing their bidding in Congress. Is this the case with the RWGs and HRC? Has HRC been particularly dismissive of poor LGBTers, or people of color, or lesbians/bisexuals/transgender individuals? It doesn’t seem that way. Here in DC alone, I regularly see HRC’s support everywhere in the community for non-RWGs, financially sponsoring everything from Sexual Minority Youth Assistance League brunches to the Mautner Project, an organization focusing on lesbian health. They also were the only LGBT organization to purchase sponsorship at Netroots Nation last year. These are all organizations whose constituencies are predominantly some or all of the characteristics of non-rich, non-white, non-gay male.Legislatively, last time I checked (aside from the T issue in ENDA, which I and many others supported as a strategic measure), HRC hasn’t been pushing legislation that only benefits, rich white gay men.
Where in my post do I say HRC has been dismissive of poor LGBTs? Nowhere. Where do I see in my post where I say HRC has done nothing for low-wealth communities of color. Nowhere. In fact in my update in response to the, um, vigorous comment thread, I specifically say:
HRC funds many programs that do outreach in the broader, more diverse community with those donations; so complaints that it all goes to administrative overhead and salaries, while it may feel good to rip, doesn’t exactly paint an accurate picture of the impressive work HRC is and is capable of doing.
And the last sentence in that quote that I pulled I hope was meant to be sarcastic, because all pro-LGBT legislation supported by HRC does benefit everyone, not just RWGs. Where is that assertion in my post? Oops, not there. [We could have a long talk about the ENDA debacle and how that backstabbing, has left some slow-to-heal wounds in the trans community, as Adam noted.]
2. Financial support. Like with its support of SMYAL and the Mautner Project, lots and lots of organizations rely on HRC for financial support. HRC also puts tens of thousands into political support- in direct contributions, sending staff, and other ways- into political campaigns, like the 2005 Maine non-discrimination ballot initiative, this year’s Maine marriage campaign, Referendum 71 in Washington, Prop 8, electing LGBT members of Congress, and more. Yet I know many people who cheer HRC’s contributions to non-profits and political campaigns turn around and make the RWG argument.But is this different than anywhere else? Many foundation boards are entirely rich and white. Many individual donors who give money in LGBT politics are rich, white and gay. Should the money be rejected because of the race and class from which it comes?
I also view HRC as a kind of aggregator for donors. Is it better there be no HRC Dinner at all, where non-profit executive directors go principally to get access to the RWGs to get additional direct financial support? Is it better for a non-profit like SMYAL to not get any money from HRC, and for its tiny staff to spend even more time and resources on development work, rather than helping underprivileged youth of color?
Who said to turn down the financial support of RWGs? Not me, and not in that post. We obviously cannot change the distribution of wealth in this country, nor did I call for that. What I called for was some creative thinking about how to make events and boards more diverse. That doesn’t always equal money. This limited ability to think outside the box reminds me of a schoolmate of mine who has well-to-do parents. Because her parents have a difficult time with emotional support and speaking frankly about their relationships to their children, they find it a lot easier to simply write them checks, sending them as occasional gifts in the mail for “the vet bill” or some such. They are just a bit crippled and clueless how to handle affection or emotional connection.
Maybe this is about a lack of ability to think outside the box. That is certainly what I would rather believe than HRC, or any organization based on equality, would rather have its management and board look less like the community it serves out of discomfort with an alternative model.
3. Hypocrisy. At the same time folks trash HRC’s RWG demographic, they celebrate RWGs. Bruce Bastian is a classic example. Bruce, a Utah native and former Mormon missionary, co-founded WordPerfect and is on Fortune 500′s list of richest people in the country. He is widely respected as one of the most inspiring and generous donors in the LGBT movement. I see praise heaped upon him in many quarters, as I should.Bruce has also given millions to HRC. He is on the HRC Board of Directors. I went to the HRC Dinner last year, where he was the guest of honor, feted and given an award.
If anything, Bruce is the Rich White Gay incarnate, but he is praised, while the organization doling out his money to causes we all hold dear is demonized as “you’re rich, white and gay, so you suck!!”. Huh?
Hmm. That’s interesting. Adam spent this entire section talking about Bruce Bastian; he’s mentioned nowhere in my post. Don’t know him, have never quoted him. So there’s nothing to analyze there. Perhaps Adam can attribute the commentary to someone who discussed him so the hypocrisy charge addressed appropriately. I’ll just move along to…
4. Diversity. In a perfect world, every foundation and political action group and non-profit would be a mix of races, classes, and colors. I would hope that HRC and lots of other groups are more diverse- economically, racially, and in terms of sexual orientation. That’s not the case, and I don’t think that will ever be. So why are we making race-based and class-based attacks on organizations that support the rest of the community? It’s not like HRC is the only one. I live in DC, one of the gayest cities in the country, with a majority-black population. Yet I go to events all the time- benefit galas, LGBT performing arts, sporting events, political group meetings, bars, you name it- that are almost entirely middle-to-upper-class, white and gay. I have friends who tell me the same in other cities. Yet I don’t hear the kind of vitriol thrown at the sponsoring institutions like I do HRC.I don’t pretend to be an expert on the financial makeup of the LGBT community, but I don’t think the class, economic, and sexual orientation structure of HRC- or the other events I mentioned- is because they’re some kind of racist, classist, LBT-hating group. I think it’s because there aren’t exactly tons and tons of rich LBTs or people of color, particularly POCs who are “out”. Is this HRC’s fault?
Lots of meat here. You know, you don’t need a perfect world to achieve more diversity in leadership, you simply need people committed to achieving it. It’s that simple. What it does require is thinking of addressing it in non-traditional ways, something that clearly hasn’t entered the minds (for whatever reason, I won’t speculate) at HRC.
Before this “politically unaware” “fringe left Internet blogger” offers a couple of unsolicited suggestions, I would like to address the “why pick on HRC” issue, when one could charge other orgs with similar diversity problems. It’s pretty simple — HRC is the largest LGBT organization, and its primary function is to lobby Congress on our behalf. End of story. That role, along with the contacts and media relationships, makes it the go-to LGBT org if a politician or reporter wants to know the pulse of the community regarding politics. It’s the truth.
To have such a disconnect that HRC’s head is drawing specious distinctions about whom is qualified to be on the inside at that dinner based on the premise that money=political savvy is problematic on its face.
How does the organization address the political savvy of an activist out there in a Red state that lobbies their legislature to effect change and who keeps up to date with what machinations are going on in Congress? Are they of less value to the HRC because they are poor as a church mouse? Less worthy than someone who is of great wealth who simply writes a check and shows up to big galas to see the celebrities and meet old friends on the high-end party circuit? That’s what Joe said — this is ludicrous on its face. And that’s just taking a broad stroke.
In the real world there are a wide range of economic circumstances and levels of political awareness in any population or group. So where is the cutoff for legitimacy in Joe’s World? That’s what my post is about, not condemning RWGs. Surely when he goes on Mike’s show he’s going to have to explain what he was trying to achieve in that interview with Don Lemon, because at face value, he’s done more to damage the rep of his organization in the last week than any commenters or diarists on a blog could. It’s been an embarrassing week between this interview and the mind-boggling 2017 e-blast.
Anyway, as I was reading the reactions and comments about Joe Solmonese’s statement, I took a few minutes to think about ways to address the diversity problem, since I think we can all agree that leadership that is more like the LGBT population at large is a healthier organization than one that is largely homogenous — or at least one would hope that would be desired in 2009. A couple of ideas to ponder…
1. How about saving a couple of seats on the board as elective posts? Right now, you have to have $$$ to get into the game and on a board. These positions could be selected by membership in a vote, perhaps regionally, to identify activists with promise in terms of leadership. This does two things — identifies talent and grooms them at a very high level in our movement. Surely any organization would benefit from this more grassroots approach to representation. A presence and a voice from another socioeconomic perspective can save an organization from committing grievous, PR mistakes because of the blind spots that are common in groups that are too homogeneous. It’s almost never out of malice, the errors in judgment are because of being in a bubble of ignorance or insensitivity that can easily be corrected by simply engaging on a peer-level with someone who is not like you, as opposed to relating to someone you are in a paternalistic role with.2. How about making space at the (dinner) table? Surely some mondo goodwill and PR could be gained if some of those “captains” who buy a whole table at a gala could participate in a matching donation to buy four $250 seats for activists of note around the country who cannot afford the ticket but who are just as politically savvy and successful as the rest of the people in the room. They could be selected by the board (or an HRC committee) that would bring the work they do that doesn’t get the recognition it deserves in a forum that has such a high profile. This could motivate so many people out there to get active.
3. Have a table captain host one activist that they sponsor? This would earn HRC tons of good publicity and goodwill as well, and encourage those with means to get to know and learn about an activist in the field effecting change. HRC could provide a list of activists that these donors could connect with, and everyone benefits — particularly those with wealth who want to do more than just write a check, but not necessarily do canvassing or the field work and then find there’s not much between that appeals to them. Building person-to-person relationships on that level toward a common goal certainly builds more bridges to understanding.
Anyway, that’s my two cents. But I thank Adam for raising the issues he has, for expressing the frustration of some of the RWGs who saw only negativity rather than my call for opening constructive dialogue because of the noise filter, and Joe Solmonese’s very poor, very public approach to handling the stress points in our community in his role President of the Human Rights Campaign.
***
NOTE: I haven’t read this post yet since it just went up, but I’ll point you to HRC Back Story, where Joe Solmonese says “The Last Thing We Should Do is Wait.” Come back and comment.




132 Comments


Straw Man?Where does Adam Bink refer to YOU, Pam? He refers to “many in the LGBT community” trashing HRC and gives links to three threads, two of which are filled with posts by “many in the LGBT community.” What’s to argue with there?
In fact, this vitriol about Solomonese and HRC is just old news. It’s been going on for as long as I’ve been reading this blog. So what?
he links to both of those posts, and to SullyNo, it’s important to clarify in critiques when you cite a blog whether you are referring to the author or the commenter because a good number of people who read his post won’t bother to click through and actually read the cited post. It’s a netiquette thing.
The reason it’s relevant is, for instance, when I wrote a highly cited post critical about Rachel Maddow’s interview with Mike Huckabee (not critical of Rachel or her role in the media or that she’s a lesbian, etc) that was linked to over and over without any context, and by the time people were citing others who had linked to it, my inbox was flooded with angry mail about things I never said (saying I was jealous, just wanted her job, wanting to force her to cover LGBT issues, etc.), never alluded to and completely off point because they took the word of the blogger citing my piece rather than reading my piece for themselves to assess the content of what I actually said.
You’d be surprised (or maybe not) how lazy readers are about clicking through to original sources for context.
Wow. Joe doesn’t see any problems out thereI happened to catch a bit of that interview and Joe doesn’t see anything that occurred over the weekend did anything to divide the community. Oy. I’ve heard of PR damage control, but there’s no harm in admitting a need to take a look at whether the organization that is supposed to represent our community regarding federal legislation may need broader leadership perspectives?
If anyone heard the whole thing, did he address his CNN comments at all, even for some kind of “clarification”? Sigh. There’s so much work ahead.
Does anyone want to try to do anything proactive to fix this organizational beast? Or is fresh thinking and broadening views impossible to achieve there?
Maybe they’re not lazyso much as channeling their inner Emily Latella…
And yes- I know I am VERY “guilty as charged” on occasion!
Swing and a miss: critique of my column on Joe S. on CNN makes points, just not regarding my postPam, Your column was very well written! Thank You for all you do!
I still see red every time I see the letters “HRC” It is because of using people like me (“T”)as a bargaining chip in 2007! I have lost all respect for “HRC” and Joe Solmonese. If Joe Solmonese had not absolutely promised The “T’s “were included in ENDA 2007 in his speech one month before, maybe the anger and hurt would not still be so fresh!
The “HRC” office should never have been vandalized by anyone! That was and is totally unacceptable!
Don’t be surprised that if ENDA comes up for a vote again this year or next, more than likely the “T’s” will be be used as again as a bargaining chip and not be included! Regina
Yes and noThat is, yes, there are many people who want to do something proactive to fix that beast — some of them working for the organization right now, others having left it in protest.
And no, fresh thinking and broadening views are not impossible to achieve there.
What sits in the way, first and foremost, in the confluence of power.
Solomonese is linked to several major players from his time with Emily’s List — do not underestimate the reach that such a role carries in terms of being able to have established those in person contacts.
So he’s paid a lot of money because he knows a lot of people, and he’s a pretty good networker (yes, a liar too, but eh.)
The second part is the nature of the makeup of the Board of Directors and the Board of Governors (remember, HRC has two different bodies under one name and one roof).
Those bodies are reached and sat on through providing funding. Either via fundraising efforts and an invitation, or the de facto act of buying your way onto the board.
The Board of Directors (overseeing the political arm) is responsible for the disconnect, and they are, indeed, Joe’s bosses.
Although many will groan I again bring it up, these people are highly assimilationist in thought and idealism — that is, they want to get there, but with as few ripples as possible socially. Slow and steady and quiet. Do not rock the boat. They are, as I and my trans colleagues say, Mattachines.
The left overs of such, the heirs apparent of the previous ones, and they are not likely to be going anywhere anytime soon.
They each have a modicum of respect in the community, and all have significant positions of influence that are also used. The list of their names can be found here:
http://www.hrc.org/about_us/25…
Which also includes the names of the Board of Governors and the Foundation Board.
Per the HRC itself: The HRC Board of Directors has the ultimate authority over the organization’s actions, including fiscal management and budget approval. Board members also establish the official policies that direct HRC.
So Joe’s their lackey, structurally.
So, to achieve a change in the HRC requires a change in the thinking and ideas of those individuals. A majority of them shifting and becoming aware of the situation of disconnect that they face would have a significant impact.
I’ve been attempting to reach the two individuals locally for me, but my reputation precedes me, lol.
So yet’s it is possible, but not via the methodology one is used to — in this case, it would mean lobbying the boards of the HRC itself.
OR, of course, buying our way on there.
Misplaced AngerHRC is the largest, oldest, and most successful gay organization. They don’t work on every problem that everyone has. They aren’t a socialist group, for example. But a contingent of gay people whose lives haven’t turned out as well as they’d have liked, and who are angry about that, but who have no feasible way to make an impact, instead turn their anger closer to home. They see a big, well-financed, group of relatively well-off gay people, and they make it the target for all of the frustrations.
That, I think, is what’s behind the vast majority of criticism of HRC. Most of what I read against them consists of ad hominem attacks on their president, Joe Salmonese, and their members who attend events. The complaint? They are too white. They are too affluent. They are too well connected in Washington. They get the president of the United States to their dinner, so the president of the United States is attacked too.
Folks, look in the mirror. Things haven’t turned out the way you wanted in life? You got screwed over along the way? That’s unfortunate. But it’s not the fault of HRC or its president. Their success is not why you’ve fallen behind. They didn’t do it to you, so don’t try to drag them down into your misery — which might love company, but which doesn’t look too attractive from the outside. Stop it with the envy, and the destructiveness. HRC is a gay lobby, not your guardian angel. They can’t solve your personal problems, so stop expecting them to, and quit attacking them because they haven’t.
Regarding Suggestion #2I know that in New York, the Empire State Pride Agenda has table captains who do just that – sponsor tickets for activists (and they let ESPA people who know who is whom in the grass roots pick them) who can’t afford the price.
Iwill admit to having attended ESPA’s Fall Dinner a few times on that basis, and it’s apparently only because of a general drop in the amounts for this year that I haven’t been invited to make a showing this year – added to the fact that there are others who have ot been invited in the past and who are just as deserving of a “thanks for the work you do” perk like the dinner can be.
ESPA has made a habit of using the comp tickets to sponsor trans activists who don’t have the resources to be there with their own funds, who are about as far from being RWG as they can be.
One of the interesting things to note at these dinners is the very long lines for the men’s room, and the virtual lack of lines for the ladies’ room.
There is a world of difference between HRC which gives the trans community lip service at best, and ESPA, which has made a huge effort to be inclusive in every way over recent years (before 2003, they were running on the HRC model – so I know HRC can change if it tries).
Thanks for the column!
It was meSorry Pam, I think when I saw the words “well-to-do white gays”, it struck a chord. There is a lot of bashing going on, but not from you. Yes, your post was about the lack of diversity and you ARE ABSOLUTELY correct. And no, you were not busting the “RWG’s” (God, I hate that term), just the lack of diversity.
A lot of times, I feel like an outsider at gay gatherings (sometimes, on this blog). For every ticket purchased, buy one for someone who can’t afford one. And don’t all sit with your friends. Can you imagine the learning opportunities at a table of people from various/different backgrounds. Talk about great dinner conversation.
And one more thing: One of the things I like about this blog is the lack of judgmental thinking from the authors (just some of the commenters).
marginally relatedthe reason I can so readily do all of this describing and discussing the HRC is that I determined a year ago that it had to change. The approach I’d used for a while wasn’t working, as even without broad support they kept existing.
Generating a massive boycott is useless so long as the experiences I had back in may of this year are the norm (where the HRC is referenced over the physical effort of on the ground lobbyist citizens), and that means you have to use the system.
I am of the nature, personally, where I seek out weaknesses in systems and use them to destroy themselves — so I’ve done a lot of digging and learning about the system that is the HRC in the interim.
They do not like transfolks. They are, however, at least tolerant, in a paternalistic and patronizing way, and that is inherent in the system and organization they have.
IF nothing is done, they will remain a force that we have to deal with to some degree or other, and the break that has now shown itself will only become a large gap by this time next year.
And the board won’t particularly care.
I know the point you are trying to make.
Obviously you’ve never had to use the restroom while “dressed up”. You watch what you drink and hold it like hell until you get home. Walk a mile in my pantyhose.
Um, iirc, she’s transwhich means she probably has had to do so.
I’ve attended inaugural events, “real black tie” with tux and all, military dress events, and more.
So, um…
well, I’m sure you get the point now…
Most successful?What do we have to show from 30 years of the most successful gay organization?
And the problem is with this same very paternalistic grin-fuck attitude right there in your post.
Ok.THings in my life have turned out reasonably close to how I wanted them to be.
I did get screwed over along the way, but generally speaking that’s not stopped me — I’m difficult to stop.
However, none of that is what any of this is about, for the seventh time.
Perhaps you should stop and learn rather than make uninformed and insulting statements which will, in the end, only get you insulting statements back.
Because while you may think that’s what behind it all, you are incorrect. That is, you are wrong.
IT is not what is behind all of this.
And the longer you retain the illusion that it is so, the more difficult you will find things.
I told him that in the other threadbut he’s a troll who is glossing over it.
By the way …… why should the HRC give free admission to events to “activists” who hate their organization? Not only aren’t they a socialist organization, but I don’t think they’re a suicidal one either.
It allows for lip serviceSimply put.
Angry Trans-sexual“Dyssonance” is an angry trans-sexual who has declared that she “hates” HRC and Solmonese, and who flings some fairly pungent personal insults at anyone who disagrees with her.
Get Over ItYou’ve declared your “hatred,” and such. It’s not good for you, “dyssonance.” Get over yourself. Really.
That’s actually part of what’s going onhere in Phoenix this upcoming weekend.
And around the country in the near future. It’s really about encouraging that conversation — which sometimes will be harsh, and sometimes won’t be, but the passion that’s sparked in them might get people to do the things that need to be done.
One doesn’t have to resort to ad hominems regarding Joe S.The nature of the ad hominem style would be to indicate that we should disbelieve anything Joe says “because he is a liar” or some such.
We don’t need to go to the ad hominem to disparage Mr. Solmonese’s leadership.
He made promises in the past, and then reneged on them. I grant that past performance cannot absolutely predict future performance, but for those who, like me, have been adversely impacted by Joe’s past performance, particularly with regard to the 2007 ENDA debacle that was pure “inside the beltway” showmanship with only a phyrric victory as a result, we can’t be blamed for being at least a little skittish about what he (and HRC) might do in the future.
If HRC is interested in changing its tune, one of the prerequisites would be for Mr. Solmonese to resign. An acceptable alternative would be for the organization to stick to a trans-inclusive policy for civil rights measures it supports, and at the point where it actually manages to not throw the trans community under the bus in order to secure an illusory and temporary quasi-”vic-ory” (VIC ORY without the T is just a jumble of letters).
Otherwise, there’s no reason I should be supportive of this national organization, no matter how much money it raises. And every reason for me to let my inclusive gay and lesbian friends know that HRC’s support of the trans community has never been very good – better they should support NGLTF instead.
No.
Falsehoodstsk tsk.
And what’s with the dash?
thanks LouiseMy favorite Emily Latella theme was
presidential erection
Um.The gents on line for the men’s room at the ESPA functions are nearly all in tuxes or business suits.
Trans women and WBFs use the ladies restroom, without a line.
The men in drag (as well as some of the trans folk) were happy using the restrooms designated as “all gender” – which also did not have lines.
The men’s room line wasn’t dragging because of men in drag, just because of the sheer numbers of men on the guest list – perhaps 9 in 10 in attendance at a typical ESPA fall dinner (well, 2006, 2007, 2008) have been men not in drag.
Right-wingWe had a right-wing fucktard for a congressman before we voted for Inslee that spelled it with a dash. I don’t HATE HRC. I HATE those who deserve it. HRC is not worthy of that level of my contempt.
As for solmonese, Don’t hate him either but the bullshit flying from his mouth on what seems like a daily basis is another matter altogether.
And telling someone the facts instead of hyperbole is only seen as an insult to those speaking hyperbole.
But maybe I am just another angry trans-sexual.
That should have gonea level above.
Who’s Lying Now, Dyssonance?From dyssonance, referring to Salmonese and HRC:
“I hate him because he’s akin to a deceitful lump of semi-sentient fecal matter in a burlap bag. Please, try to spin that as harsh invective. The HRC itself I hate because they consistently have shown they consider me and my life to be something they can use as a bargaining position …”
Referring to me:
“Saves me energy, you past date douchebag.”
“Lord, save me from dumbass trolls who haven’t a clue what they are talking about.”
“I don’t find liars all that appealing, especially those who suck at it as badly as you do.”
Who’s Lying Now, Dyssonance?From dyssonance, referring to Salmonese and HRC:
“I hate him because he’s akin to a deceitful lump of semi-sentient fecal matter in a burlap bag. Please, try to spin that as harsh invective. The HRC itself I hate because they consistently have shown they consider me and my life to be something they can use as a bargaining position …”
Referring to me:
“Saves me energy, you past date douchebag.”
“Lord, save me from dumbass trolls who haven’t a clue what they are talking about.”
“I don’t find liars all that appealing, especially those who suck at it as badly as you do.”
Please Be More SpecificI’m not an HRC member. I am coming to their defense because almost everything I see from their critics is nothing other than ad hominem attacks. You’ve raised an issue about the 2007 ENDA debate, but if you want to persaude me you need to lay out the whole story.
By the way, in my own point of view, I’m not real high on ever having included trans-sexuals with GLB. I don’t know who ever made that particular decision, or why. So maybe you might talk about why this should be a litmus test, because it’s not one for me. Never had been.
Thanks For the Heads-UpIf I join HRC and go to an event, I will make sure not to wait for the very last minute to use the john.
Well…actually, the question that should be asked but, like the others asked of that individual, will be glossed over, is what’s wrong with being an angry transsexual.
However, that’s not really germane to the discussion so I’ve avoided it.
Given the use of “socialist” consistently, the nature of posts prior to this recent series, and general failure to understand trans issues, I have come to the conclusion that Mr Wilson is, in fact, a right wing extremist acting as a sock puppet.
The basis of the general arguments, the manner of discourse — they all remind me of the many, many posts I encountered by various sockpuppets at Topix a few years back, where my high speed of posting and responding to each comment habits were developed.
I could go into all manner of rationales for such, but, in all cases, none of it would have anything to do with his credibility, and would, in the end, be little more than hypothetical exercises.
The attempt to use “angry transsexual” and “hate” as discrediting tactics is a logical fallacy – neither have anything to do with my actual credibility on the subject, but since he’s arguing from a position of emotion and not logic as well as coming from an uninformed position, he’s not able to make an effective attack on me or my statements.
In short, he’s upset, he’s given to lying about me, to straw men attacks on my person (and I’m admittedly allowing him to do so out of my quirky sense of humor) instead of my statements and arguments, and generally going downhill fast.
For my part, I’m going to be quiet in this thread for a bit lest I overwhelm it and the interpersonal conflict twixt he and I incite some others who have grievance with me or the entire thread become a back and forth.
Not II didn’t deny saying anything of those things in my single word response.
I said no.
As in, “get over yourself. really.”
Who’s Lying Now, Dissonance?From dyssonance, referring to Salmonese and HRC:
“I hate him because he’s akin to a deceitful lump of semi-sentient fecal matter in a burlap bag. Please, try to spin that as harsh invective. The HRC itself I hate because they consistently have shown they consider me and my life to be something they can use as a bargaining position …”
Referring to me:
“Saves me energy, you past date douchebag.”
“Lord, save me from dumbass trolls who haven’t a clue what they are talking about.”
“I don’t find liars all that appealing, especially those who suck at it as badly as you do.”
And, again, Not I.You really need to work on that whole bit about understanding what others are saying, instead of leaping to conclusions.
especially with me.
Incidentally, when someone lies, they are called a liar, and it is not an ad hominem to do so.
It only becomes an ad hominem at such time as it lacks accuracy.
Furthermore, I did not use the earlier one’s because you disagreed with me, so that’s a lie, as well.
As is the statement I do so to anyone who disagrees with me — I don’t, so that’s a lie as well.
Now, since I have to watch my post counts per thread here, and since you persist in walking as far away from the subject as possible, I have to take a break from playing with you, as fun as it can be for me and as great a laugh as I am getting out of it.
I’ll be back when the post count reaches about 60 or the story moves closer to the bottom of the front page.
Well, it’s more like thisHRC should be developing a habit of working with these very people who currently have them on the “Bad organization” list.
Going to my example from New York – It has taken Pride Agenda (ESPA) years to get over its previous bad reputation. But ESPA has made an effort since 2003 to apologize for the past and work toward a harmonious future. There have been several coalition efforts in which ESPA has taken a leadership role – an have included trans activists at the table.
HRC doesn’t have to be “socialist” to be inclusive. While I grant that people falling under the T don’t do so because of their sexual orientation, we are largely perceived as being a sexual orientation. People who attack trans women (and evem trans men) tend to call us “faggots” – it’s based on their perception that doesn’t always match the reality.
Pre-teen kids are usually discriminated against, not because of their sexual orientation, but because they do not fit stereotypical gender norms – and they get called “faggot” or “queer.”
Like it or not, those of us who are different, whether by virtue of being non-heterosexual or non-cissexual, and thus not fitting perfectly into the strict binary of sex and gender (whether it be on gender identity, sex assignment, gender expression or sexual orientation), all really do have a common cause.
Limiting advocacy to sexual orientation issues only is incomplete advocacy. Making the argument that “the only difference is in the bedroom,” playsto the existing bigotry – it’s an argument that “we are just like them, with a little exception.” It leads to leaving visibly queer, transgressive, transgender and transsexual people “under the bus.”
Of course, that’s a “straw man” in context, perhaps – it all depends on what you mean by “socialist.”
ESPA has managed to be inclusive – and it is not suicidal.
Actuially, being inclusive will guarantee HRC has greater longevity – there is a lot more to do after ENDA, Matthew Shepard, DADT repeal, DOMA repeal and Immigration reform.
A full inclusive civil rights act? Marriage equality? The Equal RIghts Amendment redux? (And why not ERA – anti-gay bigotry is ROOTED in misogyny, think about it.)
TranssexualsI’m not hard over one way or the other on including transsexuals, but I do want to point out that gay people and lesbians were never asked. I don’t ever recall any debate on the issue. Same for bisexuals, for that matter. All of this started out as gay and lesbian. Bisexuals had a good logic, even if (as I think, anyway) it’s redundant to break them out given that it’s the homosexual component of bisexuality that gets them in trouble.
But transsexuals are a different kettle of fish. With them, it’s really not about their sexual behavior or gender preference, per se. It is about something else, but because gender is part of the deal, and because there’s always been a drag queen element in the gay male world, sometime in the 1990s someone(s) decided that I’ve got to be campaigning for hermaphrodites and gender-changers, too, and that if I might not be too thrilled about it then I’m a right-wing asshole.
Well, what’s done is done. It’s now “GLBT,” and I’m not going to storm out of the room over it. But I don’t especially like to feel pushed around over the issue either, and frankly I do at times feel exactly that way. I wish transsexuals well, but any real alliance I feel is pretty loose. Others may differ, obviously. And “inclusive” is a misnomer. The reality is that no group “includes” everyone, or it wouldn’t be a group. So, “inclusion” will always be limited.
Is Anyone Stopping You …… from forming a separate organization to advance the rights and general visibility of transsexuals? As you have noted yourself, to be transsexual does not imply being gay. So what are transsexuals doing in a historically gay organization anyway? No one really asked gays and lesbians if we approved of this change, and plenty of us aren’t all that thrilled by it. So yeah, “tolerance” is probably a good way to put it.
Record of Success? Are you joking?Our movement has made amazing progress at the state and local level. Nothing at the federal level, where the community has invested 90% of its money, largely through HRC.
We all realize nothing could have happened under Bush or when the GOP controlled Congress. But, the lack of any tangible progress in the nearly 3 years of Dem control of Congress and the 9 months of the current administration underscore the reality that HRC has not played politics well over the years.
The bottom line is that money counts, both for lobbying and in political contributions. Only a small fraction of HRC’s budget goes into lobbying. Moreover, HRC has done a plain lousy job in raising political dollars for candidates and people in office – again, a tiny fraction of its budget invested in this critical area.
HRC has a lot of programs in lots of areas, but they are not moving the needle on the Hill. Other organizations with far smaller budgets and fewer supporters get a lot more accomplished because of the way they invest their resources.
In some states, HRC has played a very helpful and important role (e.g., VT). In others, they’ve managed to walk over local activists and screw things up royally. Regardless, their diversion of dollars to state work further diminishes their capacity for federal work. And, the proof is in the current pudding. (And please, please do not cite the passage of the hate crimes bill as proof of anything! The hideous process of getting to this point only underscores my points.)
Matt Foreman
Fair enoughHere’s the short version:
Joe Solmonese spoke at Southern COmfort
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…
When the Inclusive ENDA did not have enough votes, HRC was the only national LGBT organization to give Barney Frank “cover” for dividing the bill in two and going forward with the “gay only” version.
Over 200 other organizations held the inclusion ground – and had HRC done the same, perhaps Rep. Frank would have held back on the divisive move.
Rep. Tammy Baldwin introduced and then by pre-arrangement, withdrew, an amendment to restore transinclusion – this allowed for floor debate on the issue. It was compelling Kabuki Theater, and the Congressional Record has provided me with some tidbits from the loonie-toons in the House of Representatives (such as Rep. Sensenbrenner. who immediately comes to mind).
The only reason for dropping transinclusion in 2007 was so that there could be a House passage of a gay-only ENDA bill with no possibility of Senate passage. This was an “inside-the-beltway” deal to allow HRC to do some fundraising by showing a victory, at the expense of also showing HRC is still willing to throw the trans community under the bus – a willingness that may cripple the future of the current inclusive bill.
I note your comment regarding not being sold on transinclusion – I guess my guess in another threadlet was correct – and apparently isn’t a “straw man” in context here – so this is what I wrote:
It isn’t transsexuals, per se, but the broader inclusive “transgender” that we’re really talking about.
There are some transsexuals out there who, feeling that they are oriented as straight, anyway, have about as much interest in working with HRC as HRC has of working with them. They’re the ones who think that the fact that they’re post-op and have had their birth certificate amended, they can just “pass” as WBFs, marry a man and have that marriage recognized. (And then they blame “transgender activists” for messing up their woodworking.) So if you’re thinking about those particular transsexual folks, perhaps I wouldn’t blame you for not seeing a common ground. (Though their ideas are very similar to the “we’re just like you but for this one eensy thing” argument to the opppressor that allows for tossing others under the bus for being more visibly different – it’s just a matter of who is tossing whom.)
You still might not be “sold” on the idea. I do have a number of lesbian and gay friends who used to support HRC and who send their donations to NGLTF now – precisely beause of the 2007 ENDA thing. They had not truly understood my leeriness about HRC based on earlier performance (leeriness that I had put aside after the Atlanta speech but returned to when I got thrown under the bus).
At worst, we can agree to disagree – though I would hope that those who would support HRC might use their support to try to effectuate positive and inclusive change.
Wish I had more time to address this!Basically, my main beef with HRC is that they have accomplished little or nothing at the federal level of rights given all of their “access” and knowledge of the issues.
Also, it’s not an either or. We need HRC and other orgs.
Hi Matt!Thanks! I haven’t seen you in a while and hope you are doing well!
I agree with you – and perhaps you might share some of your background as it relates tangentially to the HRC/transinclusion issue.
Do they have “All Gender” restrooms set up for HRC Dinners?Not that I need them, but if they do, that’s a sign of a certain amount of institutional understanding of issues that face some gay, trans and genderqueer folks who might actually feel safer in a gender-neutral bathroom environment.
Transsexual people do have sexual orientationsAnd surprise! Many trans women are lesbians, and many trans men are gay men. A lot are some sort of Bi, and a good number are straight.
Of course, trans women who identify as lesbian are sometimes misunderstood – some wonder why we would transition at all if we’re attracted to women, and don’t understand any answer we might give.
Trans women who identify as straight are sometimes een as gay men who are trying to deceive straight men into being gay – often cited as the reason for some of said so-called straight men to scream “faggot” while stabbing us multiple times and claiming it was because we were “really men.”
Trans people, maybe not all of us, ut a good number of us, are part of the gay and lesbian community – and civil rights laws that leave us out don’t make any sense at all.
Interesting aside – I note there are regional differences in acronym. In Westchester, just north of New York City, it’s always LGBT, while in Manhattan, I hear GLBT more often than not. Other rearrangements and additions to the alphabet soup are noted. Perhaps regional and other language differences could be a topic to consider on an open or special thread.
Just curious about the scope of the website Open LeftI don’t know the site and I noticed the here,,herehere links go twice to PHB and once to Daily Dish by Andrew Sullivan. These are some of the most read, most awarded LGBT sites…is maybe some of this criticism taking on bigger sites to boost their ratings?
The attack on Autumn’s piece had ZERO to do with HRC, it was which spokespeople the media choses to interview on behalf of the LGBT community.
I didn’t read Sullivan’s piece and have little care if Andrew and Joe Solonmese b*tch slap each other til both their hands smart.
I’ve read Pam’s original critique of HRC and the rebuttal to this Open Left writer. My reaction is to send him Lisa Allen’s queer lip synced video and call it a day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?f…
btw the Lip synced video is probably DOUBLE the POC representation as the whole HRC event
I’m back…OK, I’ve waited long enough, while still at about a thrid, I have a means of stepping outside it, lol.
First of, the subject of discussion is the HRC and its failing and merits, not me, personally. Nor does someone else’s determination of my being angry or not actually affect my credibility — unless you want to get into tone arguments and the exercise of privilege.
To the point of the anger being misplaced, I noted that the entirety of the statement was wrong, and, as yet, the poster has yet to correct the errors made there.
To the question asked of me is anyone stopping me from creating a separate organization — there’s no need; there are two that are already doing so, specifically, and then interstingly enough, the majority of all the national lgbt rights organizations in addition.
In the same comment, it was asked what transsexuals — and transgender folk by extension — are doing in the cacophony, despite that having already been pointed out in an earlier response of mine.
However, this was followed up with an observation that no one was asked.
This is incorrect, and is, in fact and in deed, an example of institutional transphoia and erasure.
Transfolk have been part of the movement for recognition since the beginning of the overall recognition efforts dating back to the mid 1800′s in Germany, and absolutely have been part of such since before Stonewall, and include our existence in Stonewall.
At that time and place, there was no identity of transgender, no identity of lesbian, no identity of bisexual. At that time and place we were all just, well, Gay.
Transfolk were critical to the founding of organizations such as the GLF and other activist groups who’s ission and purposes coincide with all those extant today except for those deriving their basis from the mattachine assimilationsit movement of the years immediately preceeding and shortly after Stonewall.
The T was not “added”, it was there all along, it just found a voice late in the game, much like L had done and B had done previously, so of course no one was asked — it was already part of that idea.
The ignorance in the statement “who asked us” of on’es own history astounds me, and that does indeed anger me, as there is no excuse for such ignorance.
That this same person is using the term hermaphrodites for IS folks (which is against the TOS of the site as a slur akin to faggot and tranny), implies that the posters here are socialists, and more, is something I would like to draw attention to.
I do that because at this point, it’s about to cross over into that point where I just go to town on the gentlemen if he continues to avoid actally speaking to the substantie points I’ve raised and lying about me and others here.
That said, I refer back to my original response to Pam regardng the question she asked and the overall subject of the thread:
That is, yes, there are many people who want to do something proactive to fix that beast — some of them working for the organization right now, others having left it in protest.
And no, fresh thinking and broadening views are not impossible to achieve there.
What sits in the way, first and foremost, in the confluence of power.
Solomonese is linked to several major players from his time with Emily’s List — do not underestimate the reach that such a role carries in terms of being able to have established those in person contacts.
So he’s paid a lot of money because he knows a lot of people, and he’s a pretty good networker (yes, a liar too, but eh.)
The second part is the nature of the makeup of the Board of Directors and the Board of Governors (remember, HRC has two different bodies under one name and one roof).
Those bodies are reached and sat on through providing funding. Either via fundraising efforts and an invitation, or the de facto act of buying your way onto the board.
The Board of Directors (overseeing the political arm) is responsible for the disconnect, and they are, indeed, Joe’s bosses.
Although many will groan I again bring it up, these people are highly assimilationist in thought and idealism — that is, they want to get there, but with as few ripples as possible socially. Slow and steady and quiet. Do not rock the boat. They are, as I and my trans colleagues say, Mattachines.
The left overs of such, the heirs apparent of the previous ones, and they are not likely to be going anywhere anytime soon.
They each have a modicum of respect in the community, and all have significant positions of influence that are also used. The list of their names can be found here:
http://www.hrc.org/about_us/25…
Which also includes the names of the Board of Governors and the Foundation Board.
Per the HRC itself: The HRC Board of Directors has the ultimate authority over the organization’s actions, including fiscal management and budget approval. Board members also establish the official policies that direct HRC.
So Joe’s their lackey, structurally.
So, to achieve a change in the HRC requires a change in the thinking and ideas of those individuals. A majority of them shifting and becoming aware of the situation of disconnect that they face would have a significant impact.
I’ve been attempting to reach the two individuals locally for me, but my reputation precedes me, lol.
So yet’s it is possible, but not via the methodology one is used to — in this case, it would mean lobbying the boards of the HRC itself.
OR, of course, buying our way on there.
RWGs?Hey! Those are my initials and my name is Rich. I’m not so sure I like other people using them without my say so.
P.S. The HRC has done nothing for me. My lover lives in another country, I can’t get him in and the HRC doesn’t give a shit for me or anyone else in my situation.
researching Open Left, it began in 2007not listed on the top 8 progressive News sites
Regardg J’s postingAside from my finding it unlikely he wrote such, he failed to address anything regarding his own comments or the subject raised here.
Instead he addressed the concern about the President’s lack of a time table or firm commitments to general equality — and notably mentioned marriage only peripherally.
In short, it’s just more of the same expected nothingness.
Yeah, that’s not exactly a surprise, lol
IrrelevantIf someone is transsexual and attracted to the same gender as their new one, then they’re gay. But they’re gay irrespective of their trans status. I really don’t have anything against transsexuals, but I don’t see “trans,” in and of itself, having anything to do with gay. Someone else made that decision, and like I’ve said, I’m not going to storm out of the room over it but I can’t say that I really agree with it either.
Interestimg
THe prejudice that gay folks, cis* and trans* alike, suffer is due both to their self identification and their perceived lack of heteronormativity by the wider public.
IOW, all transfolks are gay, depending on how you look at each situation.
That is because you lack a foundation in the history of the movement and subcultures. You speak of it as if it something new, when it’s been around since the 1800′s.
You don’t have to agree with it — but that doesn’t change the fact that you cannot work for gay causes exclusively without either being inclusive or cutting trans people out.
And, as a result of the way that the law works, you must also work for the rights of those people who are not gay and/or trans — “sexual orientation” must include heterosexual, and “gender identity/expression” must include cisgender and cissexual folks.
Lastly, note that trans is a huge grouping and includes the effeminate gay men and very masculine lesbian women by its extension, which is why gender expression is critical in any sort of legislation.
The two are conflated in politics because they are conflated in law — you cannot achieve one without the other.
ScreamThese people who misquote you or go after you for trying to hold leaders in politics and LGBT organizations are a distraction. What bothers me the most about this is that all the time you have had to spend to write about these attacks is time you are not spending doing what you do best – which is to uncover, analyze, inspire the real news. While you remain relatively calm and reply to these misguided critics in the same way you do everything, meticulously, I want to SCREAM at them to cut it out and let you do your job.
ResponseAt the very beginning you wrote:
So, I am reading your position to be that, even though a bill with transsexuals in it couldn’t get the votes, gays and lesbians were supposed to fall on their swords for transsexuals and not consider a less inclusive version — and that to do otherwise requires Salmonese to resign, and makes HRC in need of repentance. I disagree with that. For starters, I’ve already noted that I am not all that high on the inclusion of transsexuality in the ambit of a gay-lesbian group to begin with. If it is included, as is now the case, I still don’t think it ought to be a core goal inseparable from the main task of securing rights for gays and lesbians.
I’m okay with being sympathetic and to a large degree allied, but I’m not okay with the idea that gay people have to do down with the ship if Congress isn’t ready for transsexual rights on the same basis as gay rights. Therefore, from what you have described, I think Salmonese and HRC did an excellent job of representing my viewpoint on this issue in 2007.
MyDD and it’s spin off Open Left were big Clinton backers ”in December, MyDD really began to take off. While some of this is probably attributable to still more interest in the nominating contest, I’d wager the sharp spike owes to site founder Jerome Armstrong (along with Bowers/Stoller replacement Todd Beeton) taking the site in a strong pro-Clinton direction. This distinguished itself from most lefty blogs, which ranged from avidly pro-Obama to mildly pro-Obama (as I’ve discussed before, Open Left was at best tepidly pro-Obama).”
“Open Left suffered a drop in traffic around this time as well, suggesting a broader trend. Traffic slowing just when things got interesting?”
There’s a chart at this link that those savvy with traffic to sites can fathom….it’s above my pay grade…LOL!
http://www.thenextright.com/wi…
“And now? Well, the last month shows another slip in traffic for both, with MyDD staying slightly ahead. I wouldn’t be surprised if this continued for another month. August is slow in politics, even in election years, and even in the blogosphere. But it seems clear that despite being an expansion team, Open Left is in the same league as MyDD. Then again, it seems no matter how big you get, there’s always someone bigger than you“
Transphobic trope #4Yes, indeed, they did do a great job representing your viewpoint, which is a conservative, minority one that would, in fact, throw gays and lesbians under the bus.
And, with that, damn the consequences: it’s on.
I can’t stand bigotry.
If Forced To Choose …… between your version of inclusiveness or “cutting trans people out,” with no way of taking a middle position, then I’d go for cutting out. I’m not sure it has to come to that, but if it did, that’s where I’d stand. Now, as for HRC, I think transsexuals like yourself who want to go on the “hate” path against them and their president ought to make it crystal clear that they’re doing it because HRC has been insufficiently promotional of transsexuals.
My attitude is that trans-sexuals may well be better off to form their own organization(s), and then seek common ground with true gay-lesbian groups from within their own groups, rather than to attempt to hold our people effectively hostage to your issues. It’s a little bit like Canada and Quebec; if I were in Ontario, or B.C., or some other province, I’d call their bluff, myself. Same deal here.
It Would Not Throw Gays and Lesbians Under The BusIt would leave transsexuals as the bus stop, hopefully to be picked up later on.
Historically inaccurateAverage number of years between passage of cisGLB legislation is 13 years and growing.
In all the cases where such has happened, only twice have they ever ‘come back’.
Once more, transphobia.
Oh, and, again, we are talking about transgender people — which includes transsexuals but is not only transsexuals — and which means that you are, indeed, leaving GLB people on that same corner.
Just using as an excuse their trans-ness for it. Transphobic.
More ignorancemore transphobia.
Ok, seriously — here’s your test.
I will happily educate you on trans issues, without personal attacks, so that you come to understand aspects of your postings which are revealing arguments of privilege, tone arguments, and classist arguments.
If you are willing to learn, and ask questions.
Now for the catch:
if you decline, and persist in this particular series of transphobic, already gone over in excruciating detail two years ago when the HRC was the only major LGBT rights organization to say the same things you are saying, I will go after you with everything I’ve got.
Your lack of awareness of history, your writing style, your use of “socialist”, you lack of willingness to address substantive points in the comments around you — these things all point to either your being newly out of the closet or an outright sockpuppet — a troll intentionally saying things that are known to be filled with inherent bigotry.
I can overlook them all if you want to at least try — but you will have to read, and if you don’t understand,you will have to ask questions, and if you essentially return to these points, I will know you are not here in good faith and reveal it to everyone reading that may not have already decided so.
Game?
More Response
Well then let’s all have one big organization of the “different.” No need for the NAACP being separate from HRC, being separate from La Raza, being separate from the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation, being separate from … after all, we’re all “different,” so we should be in one group. To do anything less than that would be insufficiently “inclusive,” right. And what is “cissexual?” If there’s one thing I’ve noticed about the trans-people, it’s that they seem to invent a new set of terminology every five years. It wouldn’t be a bid for attention, would it?
Someone who is not transsexualAnd something already covered here. Well within the 2 and half years of your presence here.
Yep, troll.
No Inherent CommonalityI am a biological male attracted to other males. I have no more in common with a trans-sexual than anyone else does. I don’t hate or fear trans-sexuals, but I don’t feel like my rights are any more tied to their rights than to the rights of anyone else. On the other hand, I think my rights are definitely tied to the rights of gays and lesbians more than to others; that’s why I’m interested in gay rights.
Ah, the “successful person” rhetoric.Good to know who I can and cannot look to for…well, any little bit of solidarity. Because the strict single-issue (read: upper-middle-class white gender-conformist straight Christian capitalist-authoritarian, strike one category as appropriate and defend all the others) approach works just so well at gaining allies.
Where Does The Word Come From?What does the “cis” stand for?
You are also a biological female.So that argument fails, immediately. If you’d like to know how, you will have to learn something about the science of the day and how it can be used.
You are homosexual — that means, immediately, that you defy social gender normative patterns.
You are, therefore, trans, by that extension.
Not transsexual. Transsexual is a medical concept.
If legislation passes that does not include gender expression, you can be fired fr not being man enough. You van be denied housing and social services for not being man enough.
Because “real men” aren’t gay according the the average bigot out there.
And the law won’t help you because they can say it had nothing to do with your sexual orientation, strictly to do with your expression of your gender as lensed through it.
So that argument fails — and while it may not affect you, personally, since you may be closeted given your assimilationist ideals, it absolutely affects other gays and lesbians and bisexuals (another group you continue to forget).
You are being purely selfish, thinking without regard to the wider population, and that is your failing.
yep
Chemistry is the most widely sourced conceptYou’ll have to get into the ideas of privilege (which is a lesson you can seriously use) to grasp it.
Think of it as the transgender equivalent of “straight”.
Not Being “Man Enough?”If the law and custom ban discrimination on the grounds of homosexuality, then it would prohibit someone from discriminating against the “unmanly” and citing their homosexuality as evidence of unmanliness. Now, it’s true that many gay men (but definitely not all) are less “manly” than the average, and it’s true that many (but definitely not all) women are less “girly” than the average woman. But that does not put us in common cause with transsexuals, at least not in my book.
Well …
… it looks like there are at least seven issues there. So, are you telling us that the gay community can’t be upper-middle class? Can’t be white? Can’t be a man who comes across as a man or a woman who comes across as a woman? Can’t be Christian? Can’t be capitalist? Can’t be authoritarian? So, to be gay we have to be brand new saints who just landed from Neptune yesterday? We are not just gay, but unique, different, and special in every way?
I don’t think so!
Oh Go Ahead And Attack MeYou’ve already called me a douchebag, a troll, ignorant, transphobic, and a liar. You’ve said that you hate HRC, and that you hate Joe Salomese, who, in your words is “akin to a deceitful lump of semi-sentient fecal matter in a burlap bag.” And now you’re going to “educate” me, on the threat of coming after me with your CLAWS out! You’re going to CLAW my EYES out!! Ouch!! Bring it on!!
I left my comment on that OpenLeft commentary.As I left my comment in the comment thread for the OpenLeft piece Pam referenced above (typos and all included):
Comments Are Malfunctioning Or Disabled …… in that thread at Open Left.
Thank you.I know I don’t hate the HRC, but I do understand the myriad of reasons why people do.
But I think that you make a good point — the HRC could and should be more efficient in the way they do the work that they do.
Like here……you have to register first. OpenLeft also uses SoapBlox.
Please Be SpecificHow is HRC’s budget allocated now? Give dollar figures and percentages. How would you prefer it to be allocated?
Which other organizations get more done than HRC? I am seriously thinking of contributing to one of them. Which one? Show me the track record, and be specific.
Why don’t you care about hate crimes legislation? Or if you do care, then why the reluctance to credit HRC? If they had no role, then why did it get passed? Again, be specific.
I Did RegisterI got an error message (several times) when trying to comment there. That thread has been at 17 comments all day. Something is wrong with that site, that thread, or both.
But yeah……my comment didn’t actually post there either.
What’s Frustrating …… is the lack of any e-mail address to send them a note informing them of the problem.
Which is why we provide email contact info.
You made an errorHi Pam,
In my post, I actually linked to this post of yours. Not the one you linked to up top. Not sure how you mis-read or mis-clicked? this.
In the post I linked to, you wrote:
This is not something commenters wrote. This is something you wrote.
In addition, my post was not a response to any arguments you made. My post was a response to your language. There’s a difference. You use a term- RWG- in a derogative way that I think is unwarranted as a critique of an organization. I didn’t put any words in your mouth. I’m pointing out why folks like you use a RWG term as a criticism and shouldn’t, and I list reasons why. I think there are a number of reasons to criticize HRC, but this one is wrong.
However, given that you wrote above that you actually agree with many of my reasons why RWG should not be used, I’m interested to know if you’ll stop using the term as a criticism. Yes? If not, why?
All the best,
Adam
Being a lesbiandoesn’t make you are a gay man…but I notice for the most part the gay men’s communities cooperate with the lesbian communities under the aegis of LG, often B, sometimes T. The only real commonality of L&G is that of sexual outlaw; well, I hate to break it to you, but transgender and transsexual folks are just as much sexual outlaws as you all…the hetero-normative public is not that fussy when it comes to who takes the gay-bashings from them
Oddly enough, the trans-folks want to stand with the LGB community, and we always have. But we seem to get the mouth punches that should be directed at the bigots. Curious, that.
Stand With, Or Stand & Bitch?Seems to me that the trans-sexuals who form the “T” do relatively little other than vent their hatred and frustration at not being the headliners. If they don’t get star billing, then they declare war. Look, that’s their right, but they ought to realize that there will be some pushback from those who they’ve declared war against.
This level of vitriol is not old newsLots of us have been vitriolically opposed to HRC for a long time, but actually having an acronym and inviting the movement at large to denigrate RWGs as OPPOSED to HRC,
well, THAT’S NEW news.
And talking about what is or isn’t old news is beside the point. The point is, WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON??
You’re a bigotI can’t believe you framed this this waY:
”So, I am reading your position to be that,
even though a bill with transsexuals in it
couldn’t get the votes, gays and lesbians
were supposed to fall on their swords for
transsexuals”…
Idiot:
LGBT IS ONE community.
ALL FOUR of those groups are demonized by THE SAME
people for THE SAME reasons. The fact that some people
who claim to be friends of L or G or B still can’t get past
“T” does NOT mean that “a bill with T in it can’t get the votes”. Bills are INanimate objects and they do not GET to “can” or “can’t”. The people who can or can’t are PEOPLE.
If we want to accomplish anything, we have to stick together.
We need all our energies pooled and co-operating. If you throw 1 group under the bus because they are unpopular, you just invite the larger Democratic coalition to throw L,G, and B under the bus because WE are costing THEM votes.
If you don’t have sense enough to respect the full human rights of transsexual people and to advocate forcefully for them, THEN GO TO HELL !!! YOU are a lot more toxic to this movement than transsexuals will ever be!!
RWG, You Say?Well, it’s really not that I need my ass kissed. But if I’m going to be actively shit on for putting wings on thousands of dollars and sending it someone’s way, then that’s not something I need to do either. Plenty of places to spend the RWG cash other than with activists who will hate me for it.
Is this really educational???At some point, some people have to learn what is and isn’t morally acceptable.
Anger at HRC is not misplacedPeople that HRC has given awards to HAVE GIVEN THEM BACK out of sheer disgust at the behavior of the organization.
From endorsing Republicans (like Al D’Amato) to throwing the whole trans community under the bus last year (for which decent people do NOT forgive Barney Frank EITHER), that organization has simply been behaving badly for a long time.
It should just give up and go home.
I am not saying that any particular individual RWG is part of the problem; at the individual level, any number of RWGs support decent and inclusive policies and candidates.
But Elizabeth Birch very notoriously said (in what was probably HRC’s stupidest move EVER) that if the organization hadn’t endorsed Sen. Al D’Amato (R-NY), every Republican on her board would have resigned. Like this would have been a BAD thing??? Like the Republican party’s whole viability isn’t FOUNDED on DEMONIZING gay people and black people?
The organization is a drag on the community.
If it stopped existing and the individual rich supporters contributed through other channels, the world would be a better place.
Ah, I See!It’s not a problem with RWGs at all! You just want a piece of my money. Well stand in line, hon! I can tell you this much: People who call me “RWG” don’t have a big chance. You don’t have to shine my wingtips, but if you spit in my face you aren’t going to get paid for doing it.
“They don’t work on every problem that everyone has.”Then they should stop using the people who have problems they don’t give a damn about in order to suck money away from the people who have problems they don’t give a damn about.
Once again – apparently Hillary Rosen’s in the house.
Nowhere near all of us do anything like that…and if I recall my LGBT history right, we the transsexuals were the ones pushed against before we started pushing back. There is a lot more bitterness than hatred, though the frustration is very real, I will admit.
Some very hateful things were directed toward us, a lot of very bitter gall was swallowed, especially by transwomen who tried to stand WITH the movement.
Some rather sweeping strokes there…let’s be a little discerning, all of us, in who is getting nasty toward whom, and who is not.
Interesting how the Binkster contradicts himself on THE issue that matters to many of the people here
The fact that he can ask this is either humorous or sad. I can’t quite pin down which.
I guess he was asleep from 1980 up to the hiring of Alyson Robinson.
Wow – self-justification and rank hypocrisy (as in: his self-justified ‘strategy’ pretty much blows his entire argument) via parenthetical.
William, honey…I’m transsexual AND I’m a dyke! Got a problem with that?
Firthermore… lots and lots of transsexuals start out finding themselves in the L&G communities and bar scene. I wouldn’t be surprised that alot of those bull dykes and stone butches were and are in fact FtM transsexuals, and alot of those nellies and drag queens were and are in fact MtF transsexuals who did and are working in drag clubs in order to afford transitioning.
Don’t think for one nanosecond that the Stonewall and Compton’s Cafeteria riots were started by a bunch of Castro clones and RWGs, because they weren’t! They were started by people from all walks who were tired of the harassment, bullying and bashing by cops on the take.
Next time you sit down in your cushy condo in your $1,000 suit and deciding when to head to your vacation home you thank queens like Marsha P Johnson (who died too soon) and Sylvia Revera (who died unrecognized and unwanted by the RWG establishment of New York City until her funeral!) who put their asses out on the line with thousands of others those nights if fighting back against oppression and discrimination by the authorities.
Results?My biggest criticism of HRC is lack of results.
* The Lawrence v. Texas decision in which the U.S. Supreme Court struck down sodomy laws was won by Lambda Legal.
* Same-sex marriage has only been passed in a handful of states, which were either court cases won by Lambda Legal or bills signed into law which were won by state Equality lobbying groups.
* Hate crimes laws, employment non-discrimination laws, and other recognition of same-sex relationships which exist have so far all been passed at the state or local levels.
HRC is a national group. Forty years after the Stonewall riots, how many national laws do we have supporting gay rights for all citizens? ZERO!
So people can argue all day long about who runs HRC, who is in HRC, who funds HRC, and who attends HRC dinners. But at the end of the day, the monumental critique against HRC is that they have not been successful at all.
And if we ourselves donated monies?Frankly, I ain’t asking for anything.
Well, since you invited me, certainlyLet’s look at some specifics.
1 – I did not call you a douche bag. I called you a past date (expired) douche — no mention of bag.
2 – You are a troll — your posts are flaming and you post with the specific intent to get a rise out of people.
3 – You are ignorant. Hell, despite half the freaking internet getting riled up over cis* terminology, you come in here after two years and go “Duh, what”" when its been discussed on every major blog within the last year. You fail to realize that the HRC is an LGBT organization, furthering erasure and you admittedly have no clue why the T is part of the whole, and then you keep saying transsexual instead of transgender, even after its pointed out that transsexuals are a small part of the T, which is a lot more people. When you don’t know something, you are ignorant.
4 – Yes, I do hate them. And for some reason you think it’s unhealthy for me to do so, when, factually, it’s healthy. Not that you are aware enough of such.
5 – There were no scare quotes around education when I mentioned it. So yes, I would have been willing to do so. It’s something I am very good at.
6 – Not claws. While I can get physical, it usual requires physical presence, and this lacks such, so your example of my getting my claws our is, at best, a sexist statement which is intended to further flame things along.
Well, sorry, no. I have a much more effective weapon. I have your own words, posted by you and I have the ability to use what people say against them to a degree you likely haven’t seen before.
So let’s see what you’ve established thus far, shall we?
You’ve consistently used the term “socialist”, always in a defensive manner which carries the suggestion that people here at the blend are socialists. While I have no doubt that there are, indeed, some socialists present, the overall structure and attitude of the Blend is more strictly liberal. Thus far, the only one’s to make that sort of connection, pretty much anywhere, are persons in the religious right.
Given the structure of your posts overall, I have a specific idea of who you are, specifically, and all I would need to know is the location of your IP service — I’m willing to bet that it resolves in the area of Northern Illinois.
You make arguments that, over a year ago, were shown, consistently, to be morally reprehensible, regarding inclusiveness. Your selfishness indicates that while you’d save your sister, the rest of your siblings would burn.
Assuming you are, indeed, gay (which, in my opinion, is a stretch) you’ve spent the two years since you registered here with your head under a rock, at the least (my first choice was another bodily orifice), given your entire lack of understanding of basic social concepts (for example, your description of your own preferences).
You have used transphobic, sexist, classist (which is inclusive of racist, in your case) and demeaning language about large groups of people, (that is, excluding the weak and illogical personal attacks on me as an individual) which generally qualifies as prejudice at the very least, if not outright bigotry.
You have consistently stepped off subject when questioned — both here and in the earlier thread, and your banal appeals to the court of public opinion here are facile and predictable.
You have, directly, continuously, and pointedly lied about things I have said, lied about things regarding the people here at PHB, and avoided any sort of direct questioning, which identifies you as an absolute troll — you can ask questions, but when asked them, you use straw men arguments to step aside them (such as when I called you out in the prior thread and you began the series of personal attacks against me).
So yes, Mr. William Wilson, who serves some puppeteer through cowardice and dishonor, I can and will indeed take your words and use them against you, as you’ve simply behaved in a manner that is not only morally repugnant but socially unacceptable.
At this point, having done exactly what I said I would do, I shall leave you to the not so tender mercies of the Baristas here, who have a low tolerance for the sorts of things you have done thus far.
In all good faith, I wish you a miserable day.
Has everything to do with sexual orientationor rather, how our sexual orientation is perceived. I came out as a dyke back in ’83. I ALWAYS identified as a dyke and was rather androgynous. My partner and I were perceived and we identified as a dyke couple.
Fast forward to 2007 when I went OMG I’m TRANS and one of the hardest obstacles that we had to overcome was our identity as lesbians (or rather, what my transition meant to my Transdyke partner). She still identifies as a dyke. My sexual orientation has drifted to bisexuality. Together, we identify as queer. But society in general sees us as just another heterosexual couple.
So I don’t know how a person who was born as a man and married a woman and had 3 kids (and requisite picket fence) transitions to female and still loves women. She’s gone from straight to lesbian, in the eyes of some. Her partner decides to transition from female to male. Here she is again on the merry-go-round of sexual orientation and all of a sudden she’s perceived as straight.
Even if you consider our sexual orientation to be born out of our natal genders, we are still seen as straight, when we are anything but.
Did you think it was going to pass?Bush promised “his base” that he would veto ANY form of ENDA that reached his desk. So really, HRC picked this little fight all on their own.
Birchalso told my wife at a MSFT event that if transpeople wanted their rights addressed, they should take their issues to NOW.
And the problem isn’t Solmonese. He is just the latest of a long line of EDs that continue this culture of elitism.
The problem isn’t with HRC executive directors. The problem is with the board that hires them.
What Do You REALLY Think?I was looking for new insults, and I got them. I’m a racist from Northern Illinois (wrong on both counts, but hey, why take my word for it?); probably not even gay (ROTFLMAO!); cowardly ‘n dishonorable; and morally reprehensible. And I serve some puppetteer. And my mother sucks cocks in hell. Right?
But I AM Going To Hell Anyway
You really ought to find a different one than that. Any self-respecting homo (or non-self-respecting homo, for that matter) was told a long time ago that he was going to hell. I am afraid hell hath lost its fury with me. You should have told me that the goddess would send an alligator to bite my dick off. Now that would have been scary, but since I thought of it first you can’t use it.
ResponseTo the extent that you’re gay, then a gay organization should be fighting for your rights.
Define Your Term
Exactly what do you mean by “culture of elitism?” They’re “elitist” because they’re not poor and struggling? They’re “elitist” because they’re not first a TRANSSEXUAL RIGHTS GROUP and then a gay and lesbian rights group when they have the time? They dress too well? What makes them “elitist?”
Frankly, This Thread …… makes me less interested than I was in sending money to any gay organization. No matter what you do, someone will hate you for it. As long as someone’s going to hate me for it, I might as well keep my money to myself.
Adam, I didn’t create RWG, and you’re still not getting itI’ve never used the acronym, it’s not in the bolded excerpt above either. You’re still missing the point, the description of “a sea of gay white well-to-do men” in itself is not a criticism or slur. No, and I’ll tell you why.
Imagine a parallel universe where rich black lesbians held the power and wealth in this country. Substitute “rich black lesbians” in any of my posts and the same applies. Naming the group in criticizing a homogenous group holding access, power and wealth is not the problem, it’s addressing whether those in that group feel or understand that there’s a lack of inclusion and whether they would like to change that dynamic since they hold the power to do so.
I cannot for the life of me get why there’s an oversensitivity over naming the group in power in terms that contain no ad hominem attacks.
you’ve been taking the lead in going negativeand too many other people have followed your lead. And this is why there was a reaction to the initial pieces.
Everyone just stop it.
thx MarleneYou are correct about the make up of Stonewall patrons.
One of my favorite essays of Paul Monette’s Last Watch of the Night speaks very eloquently of the collaborators with no culture that smacks of sub. he says, he’s taking names of every panderer…he has to it’s happening on his watch.
It’s Paul’s last essay before his death.
It’s not like ya called them “tired old A-queens”merely white men that are well to do
thought of some more of Monette’s rantHe’s discussing snotty gay white men who are embarrassed by the diversity at Pride the leather Daddies and drag queens.
He calls them puritan pure altar boys who don’t speak for lesbians, they don’t know any.
How on earthdoes the clearly factual observation that HRC has never accomplished anything–never gotten even one bill passed–constitute an ad hominem attack? That is at the core of virtually all the ongoing criticism of HRC here and elsewhere (that, plus their blatant trans-phobia).
And how long are you going to keep flogging the balderdash about how HRC is a “successful” lobbying organization because they raise a lot of money? If they actually did anything useful with all that money, there would be no grounds for criticism. But they haven’t.
If a medical research institute never conducted any medical research but raked in lots of donations, would you argue that they are a “successful” research facility? If a food bank never actually distributed any food but received huge contributions, would they be “successful,” in your mind? If every rocket NASA launched either exploded or fell into the ocean, would you argue that they’re “successful” anyway because they have a large budget?
I imagine you must be very happy to keep bickering with the trans people here, because it distracts attention from transparent absurdity of your defense of HRC. If you’re really not part of HRC, you should let their paid flacks spout this rubbish. At least they’re getting paid for it.
“How is HRC’s budget allocated now? Give dollar figures and percentages.”You’re defending them. That’s your job.
Good luck on getting verifiable info – but if you do, see if you can pick up verifiable info on how many ‘members’ they have.
Less Than Zero
Lets not forget that an HRC mouthpiece praised the trans-exclusions in the federal ADA in 1989 – exclusions that led to the erasure of the tiny bit of existing pro-trans case law under the 1973 Rehabilitation Act. The only thing that mattered was that some gays would be protected via ensuring that AIDS wasn’t also excluded.
Also used in space scienceAs in cislunar trajectory, cislunar orbit. (Unapologetic NASA nut!) Meaning between the Earth and Moon.
>kneels<Yes, Mistress Pam… it shall be as You desire.
But I’m biSo how does being (effectively) married to a woman who used to be male make me gay when I am a man who was born female?
And since I suddenly find myself attracted to the mens and the womens, I am pretty sure that makes me bi.
And if you think transpeople don’t fight for YOUR issues, tell that to the transfolk in the ERW offices volunteering to make sure R71 is approved.
See, here’s the trick. In Washington state, we can get legally married, my wife and I. Like married married with marriage certificates and 100+ federal rights and everything. But we won’t until R71 is approved. I’m sure we aren’t the only trans couple.
Hey nowMy opinion of them formed LONG before I figured out I was a transsexual. Believe it or not, there ARE alot gays and lesbians who detest the organization as well.
And culture of elitism is because HRC is so willing to do what it will to survive while denying access to the fight for equality for anyone it thinks is “politically expendable.” Oh, the “little people” have gone on to form their own groups because we don’t believe in letting some monolithic money-sucking do-nothing (except throw amazing parties) organization try to dictate who can and cannot have equally rights in our society.
Oops sorryI made a comment up above first. I need to sneeze anyway.
Were you donating money…for the sake of being liked?
Please stop pretending that your association with said organizations is a purely selfless act. By your own admission you are doing so in your own self interests. In fact you have no use for an organization that acts beyond your narrow self interests.
That is the real problem.
For what reason…are you putting wings on thousands of dollars. I was underthe impression that there was a level of self interest involved.
Of Course NotBut, as a matter of elementary common sense, it’s probably not a real bright idea to tell “RWGs” that they are shitheads. No need to kiss ass, honest. In fact, when I get my ass kissed (by a charitable organization, anyway) I find it embarrassing. A simple “thank you” is enough from them. From others, it’s probably not a real good idea to plant the idea that, by virtue of making a donation to Group X or Group Y, you’ve just stuck a target on your head as some sort of asshole.
I’m really not an HRC donor, and I’m not their paid plant, or a wingnut, or a straight Republican, etc. What I am is a “RWG” who looks at the invective hurled at them, and their donors and supporters, and reacts pretty badly to it. Take the environmental movement as an example. There are many groups, just about all of them swimming toward the same goal in their own way. So, because the U.S. hasn’t stepped up to the plate on global warming, are the environmental groups “failures?” I don’t see it that way.
On the contrary, with the environment, I am in it for the long haul. What I do ask of them is that they be audited, which HRC is, and that they meet generally accepted financial standards, which HRC (along with other gay groups) does. That there not be corruption and insider dealing, and endless internal turmoil that distracts from the long-run mission. I do not demand that they be perfect, or that I agree with everything they do, or that they achieve everything right now.
So grow up, folks.
Can’t see the forest for the treesRegardless of how Mr. Wilson’s comments are accepted, he does make valid points how certain opinions offered here are received by many who don’t post here. Attack me all you want, but it doesn’t reduce the validity of his statements. If you’re trying to move your “information” into the main arena, you’ve got to understand opposing opinions. You’ll be surprised how much you’ve got in common.
We’ll accomplish a lot more when we fight together, not against each other.
AgreedHowever, the issue isn’t the differing viewpoints, in the lack of willingness on the part of the troll to address or even feign interest in learning about such, when combined with those points.
Many folks would like to drop transfolk, for example, out of a concern of something not passing — the easiest counter to that is to point out that transfolk in general have a greater acceptance level in public in general, as do lesbians, than gay men.
So if that is the concern, why not drop gay men?
Now, I don’t happen to feel that way at all, of course, but when someone won’t even answer questions asked of them, and then counters things with repetition of the same points addresses without even acknoweldging them, well, then that person isn’t having the discussion in good faith.
I’m always willing to have such a discussion. BUt it has to be a conversation, and that means asking questions and answering them and making an effort to understand the other side’s position.
This troll has not done that. They have, in fact, acted intentionally to flame and troll, which is a violation of the TOS of the site.
So for those who hold similar views to what’s being expressed, understand you can have that discussion — and that many of us are willing to have such.
Just not with people who do so in bad faith.
Dyssonance, You Are The Epitome …… of a bitter angry trans-sexual who cannot possibly stand it when you are not kow-towed to and generally placed at the center of the universe. You are the very worst ambassador for anything or anyone that I can possibly imagine.
From Dyssonance,referring to Salmonese and HRC:
“I hate him because he’s akin to a deceitful lump of semi-sentient fecal matter in a burlap bag. Please, try to spin that as harsh invective. The HRC itself I hate because they consistently have shown they consider me and my life to be something they can use as a bargaining position …”
Referring to me:
“Saves me energy, you past date douchebag.”
“Lord, save me from dumbass trolls who haven’t a clue what they are talking about.”
“I don’t find liars all that appealing, especially those who suck at it as badly as you do.”
Case in point, lol
oh, what the heck. I’m bored.Please explain for the general readership the following:
1. On what basis do you make the determination I am bitter, citing facts as evidence thereby, please.
2. On what basis do you make the determination I am angry, citing facts as evidence, please.
3. On what basis do you determine that I am a “trans-sexual” — inclusive of the citation of current usage in a dictionary for said usage — citing facts as evidence, please.
4. On what basis do you make the determination I “cannot possibly stand it when you are not kow-towed to and generally placed at the center of the universe“, citing facts as evidence thereby, please.
5. On what basis do you make the determination I am “the very worst ambassador for anything or anyone“, citing facts as evidence, please. Note carefully that I am both part of anyone and anything, and that your statement implies I am the worst ambasador (sic) for myself, which would be a subsumed requirement of the evidentiary process.
6. On what basis do you make the determination the extent to which you can possibly imagine?
7. On what basis do you make the determination that the quotes cited by you have any value in the overall argument of my capability or authority in the context of the subject of what I am capable of, citing facts as evidence, please.
And, bonus round:
8. On what basis do you make the determination that the readership of Pam’s House Blend is envious of the wealth of the attendees of the HRC Dinner, citing facts and evidence thereby, please?
9. On what basis do you determine that the HRC is an ally worthwhile putting forth effort to defend, citing facts and evidence please.
10. On what basis do you feel that if one is gay that a gay organization (kind unspecified, so any gay organization) should be fighting for your rights, citing facts and evidence please.
Missing the pointI’m not sure why you’re defensive over who created an acronym. That misses the point. The point is that criticizing a group because of their demographic makeup when the demographic makeup (a) isn’t their fault (b) does not create huge political conflicts, e.g. the kind of legislation they support or groups their fund (c) is actually offensive to people. I don’t get why you think it’s okay to criticize a group (and yes, it is a criticism- if you think a group’s demographic should be different and you don’t like the way it is, then by definition it’s a criticism) on that basis.
There are plenty of things to criticize HRC over, and there are plenty of ways to suggest more inclusion in terms of race, income, etc. Trashing a group as “a sea of gay white well-to-do men” is not the way to do it. Language matters.
ExactlyLanguage matters.
Privilege is whybut not why its defensive — you made a false statement about her, which is why she’s defensive.
Criticizing a group based on their privilege (which is what’s being done), especially a widely intersectional set of multiple privileges such as those held by the individuals, is what is being done.
And, like any sort of discussion of privilege, those who have it pointed out to them get very aggressive back.
And privilege, which they get just for being who they are, does create huge political conflicts (such as the one being discussed), and shouldn’t be offensive.
Privilege is about the expectations everyone has — its about the world they are comfortable in and the way they see things, the way they interact with that world.
Simply put, on multiple levels, the group targeted have distinct expectations that are not representative nor reflective of the wider community as a whole. And yet, they take umbrage when its pointed out to them.
So, please, remove your tone argument, and cease trying to deny privilege, when you have an opportunity to learn about it.
Here’s An Environmental ExampleWant to know who were environmentalists before anyone ever invented the word “environmentalism?” Hunters.
Now, I don’t hunt. Never liked it. Used to fish, but haven’t done it since I was a kid. But I have nothing bad to say about responsible hunters and fisher(wo)men. What about the vegans and vegetarians out there who are also environmentalists? How do they handle it?
Well, I know how they handle it because you generally will find more non-meat (and fish) eaters among environmentalists than in the general population. But the vast majority of seriously committed environmentalists do not trash hunters and fishers.
Why? Because we have a common interest, which is preserving the environment. Duck hunters are some of the biggest and most active environmentalists in America. Why? Because without wetlands there are no ducks to shoot.
Ducks Unlimited doesn’t call itself an environmentalist group. The word “environmentalist” doesn’t really fly, pardon the pun, among the hunting set, although that has changed to some degree in recent years as they have realized the common interests.
Oh, and I bet people here have no idea about the “class structure” embedded in hunting. Duck hunters tend to be RWGs. Deer hunters tend to be your more classic rednecks. They all wear camouflage, but the duck hunters on average have a whole lot more money.
Do the rednecks hate the duck hunters? Not that I’d notice. Do the environmental groups shit on Ducks Unlimited because they are RWGs? No way. It’s not just because the duck people give money. It’s also because, without duck hunters, wetlands protection would be a shadow of its current self.
I’ve never heard a serious environmentalist shit on environmentalism and/or hunters because there are still lots of things left undone. And you know what? In spite of all the bad shit that happens — and there is plenty of bad shit that happens, in case no one’s ever looked at the coal mining situation, to cite just one example — the U.S. has some of the strongest environmental protection laws on the planet.
My favorite environmental group, the one that I donate a lot of money to, is Earthjustice. They fight the court cases aiming to get the government to comply with the laws. It can take decades to secure compliance. I don’t demand “results” in the way that some of the gay children around here do. I demand commitment and seriousness.
Oh, and after almost 20 years of trying, it looks like there’s just been a historic agreement to protect the Klamath River in Oregon and Northern California. My group outlasted the utilities and farmers. There was compromise involved in it, but 10 years from now they’ll be catching a shitload of salmon out of the Klamath again. I love salmon.
Bye-Bye.