I have been looking forward to getting one of those spa pedicures where you sit in the massaging chair and get the whole she-bang — massage the little piglets, scrubbing, reflexology and the like. My neuropathy in my feet has had them burning and feeling like I’ve been walking on rocks for the last couple of days, so Kate was a doll and took me today…
So after practically passing out in the chair, I went over to let my nails dry and picked up a magazine to pass the time. It was More magazine, which targets the plus-40 women’s market, with a hard to pin down focus. Some articles are about staying young looking and dressing fashionably, others are on body and age acceptance, it runs the gamut. It has the usual heterosexual vibe though, so I read it with amusement until I turned to an article that stood out from the rest, “Over 40 and Over Men” by Tamara Jones.
While the topic of coming out later in life isn’t exactly headline news in the community, this take on it was interesting thinking of all those straight women over 40 perusing the article.
Some women do feel as if they’ve been struck by lightning, says Joanne Fleisher, 64, a clinical social worker in Philadelphia. A late-blooming lesbian, she now moderates an Internet message board, Ask Joanne (at lavendervisions.com), for married women grappling with their sexuality. Others say they had some lesbian feelings earlier in life but repressed them, only to find them suddenly coming back much stronger at midlife. But it’s impossible to state exactly how many women are having any version of this epiphany.
…[A]necdotal evidence suggests that more women are coming out after age 40 than ever before — a reflection, most likely, of changing times and attitudes. For example, over 2,600 women are registered on Fleisher’s message board; countless others visit as guests. An analysis of U.S. Census Bureau data by Gary Gates, Distinguished Scholar at the Williams Institute, a UCLA think tank devoted to sexual orientation, shows that, among women living with a same-sex romantic partner, 36 percent of those in their 40s had been married to a man at some point.
Among women in their 50s who were living with another woman, more than half had left straight, married life behind; that percentage jumps to a whopping 75 percent for those age 60 or older. Finally, 42 percent of the respondents in a recent MORE.com poll reported knowing one or more women who came out as gay or bisexual at age 40-plus. And nearly a third of our respondents, gay or straight, found themselves attracted to another woman for the first time at midlife.
I found myself thinking, what must these husbands think? Publicly, we usually hear more stories about gay men coming out in mid-life (think McGreevey), certainly in crisis. However, the statistics show more women come out while in marriages than men, and in Jones’s article, the women don’t hold back on their self-revelation and what it encompasses. More below the fold.
Once you open the box, you can’t put the lid back on,” says Micki Grimland, a 51-year-old Houston psychotherapist who left her husband of 24 years after realizing she was gay. “I had a great sex life during my marriage, but it was never near the connection I have now. I’m happier and in more resonance with women; the sex I’m having is off the charts.”
…Melanie Shore agrees. She had enjoyed multiple orgasms while with her husband, but she says sex with a woman transported her to a whole new level. “There’s no end point,” she explains. “There’s this ability to roll back and forth from hot sex to girlfriends giggling and then back again.” For financial and insurance reasons, Shore is still legally married. But she is certain she won’t return to the straight life. “I don’t ever want to kiss a man again. I don’t want to have sex with a man again,” she says simply.
OK, beyond the whole obvious sex thing and the current climate being more accommodating to allow these women to explore bisexuality or indeed discover they have been living a lie is how closeted do they remain? The news delivered in More is mixed. Many lead odd double lives, living with their husbands, but sleeping in another bedroom so as to keep their families intact if the children are younger. In one case, a husband told his wife to “go with” in terms of exploring her same-sex interests. However, this was just as scary for her to embark on this new journey because 1) to do this may result in giving up heterosexual privilege she was accustomed to and 2) her support network is made up of straight women in marriages, not the lesbian community, and she didn’t feel part of either any more.
I’m glad that Jones didn’t turn the article into merely a binary discussion; she did cover the difficulties of coming out as bisexual; the B of LGBT is often rendered invisible.
It is hard enough for any newly separated older woman to begin again — imagine trying to relearn the rules in a whole new social milieu. “I know how to flirt with men; I’ve done that all my life,” says Jean, a 44-year-old New York City nurse who is in the process of coming out as bisexual. (She asked that we use only her middle name.) “I’m very shy with women, though. I haven’t quite learned how to flirt with them yet. I actually thought it’d be easier, but it’s not.” The fact that Jean remains attracted to men has proved a unique challenge: Gay people, she says, are “not always 100 percent accepting of bi people. We get suspicion from both the straight and gay communities. Being around other bisexuals, male or female, is very liberating.”
So read the rest of this lengthy article; try to read it through the eyes of More’s audience.
1) Do you think today’s women over 40 are feeling more liberated to explore feelings that they suppressed in order to fit into the heterosexual model of a woman in this culture?
2) It would be interesting to know how many of these women, without previous connection to the LGBT community also come out politically, or remain otherwise agnostic to the civil rights struggles of the community at large?
3) Does this article reveal what the real problem the fundies have with the LGBT equality movement and our winning the war — that normalization of being LGBT and a culture that allows one to explore feelings without shame and regret? It seems to, since one assumes many of these women (and those of generations before them), simply ignored their same-sex desires or blamed and shamed themselves for having them because of the cultural norms?




30 Comments


Previously had read the article or link to it somewheres.The tone I got was to take the title literally….over men vs. connection to lesbian/gay community and out or political about their situation, especially in light of the one comment pointed out as the women stayed married for heteronormative privilege. Glad for the knock out sex, but could also use out and about visible support for the okayness of this all.
btw the lavendervisions website has been around for a long long time. It’s not new as websiteowner was 40ish when she discovered women.
Liberated might not be the best word to describe why middle aged women today fill ok to explore feelings earlier suppressed. More likely thanks to all of us here who have been living out and proud for a long time.
Fundies are worried about people exploring feelings without shame or regret…they’re just agains anything gay.
Right TImeI’m not really surprised by this at all. I have been out as transgender for 4 years, coming out in my mid fifties. There are more women and men who explore their sexuality and/or gender expression than society is willing to admit.
I see it as a matter of timing. It was the right time at that point in life. I’m happily married and my spouse knows about my trasgenderism. She accepts it and so does my son. I have never been happier than I am now.
Gennee
More discusson of this post on FriendFeedPam, I follow you on FriendFeed and often we wind up having discussions on your blog posts in the comment section there.
http://friendfeed.com/pamspaul…
As a closeted male bisexual…I’ve written here before that I’m not out as bisexual to most of my gay friends (and lovers). My family knows and the only person I really talk to about it is my twin brother.
My experience makes me think that perhaps there could be something else going on here.
Most men are attracted to younger women. Whether that is due to social conditioning or some kind of biological instinct, it is simply a fact.
I am 50 years old and many younger gay men treat me like crap. They consider me to be old and unattractive and unworthy of their company.
However, that is certainly not the case with young women. In fact, many young women consider me to be very attractive. Beautiful women half my age flirt with me all the time.
I have been casually dating a woman who is almost 20 years my junior. She constantly tells me that she thinks I’m handsome and her eyes light up when she sees me.
So, I can imagine what it must be like for a woman over 40. Her husband doesn’t find her attractive anymore. Her self image is sinking because men don’t respond to her.
Then, she discovers that women find her attractive!
I have to be honest and write that it is very tempting to reshape my life and settle down with a beautiful young woman at this point. This doesn’t mean that I’m in a “crisis” or that I’m discovering anything new about my sexual orientation. I’m just tired of being treated like a “ugly old troll” by younger gay men. Who needs that?
My Mennonite auntOne of my Mennonite aunts came out as lesbian in her 60′s, several years after her husband died and is now in a very happy relationship with a woman. She credited my coming out to the family as trans for giving her the courage to come out herself.
There are several other members of my large extended family that I suspect are hiding their true selves (one fundamentalist brother-in-law even confessed to me that he has always had trans feelings.) I hope that the normalization of LGBT within our own family helps them to come to terms with themselves and find real happiness.
Let me ask you something, if it isn’t too personalWhat would be wrong with a gay (or bisexual, for that matter) man that’s around your age or, say, even 10 years younger. Or even a stright or bisexual woman of that age, for that matter.
Not trying to get up in yo’ biz-ness, Fritz but…you don’t have to answer, of course.
As I tell him all the timethe more I witness what “men” are these days, the more I utterly love and adore my best friend/ husband/ lover/ girl friend Charlie. He is incredibly complex, endlessly fascinating and captivating, and looks better in a dress than I do!
It took awhile for ME to understand him and encourage him to embrace the Charlene within, but I’m very glad he was patient with me and had faith in me.
And I wish to hell society wasn’t so screwed up about his being CD…
But you know? I think it’s 100% the individual that he is, not the “man”, that I love so deeply, no matter what. And that deep connection is based on the PEOPLE involved- not the genders.
Were something to happen to one of us, I would hope the other would try to find this deep love and connection again, and it would not surprise me at all if it were with someone of the same gender.
Love = Love…
well certainly that is happening..but, as a gay man, I’ve noticed I do better when I stick to men around my age. I’m 26 and already 18 year olds don’t want a thing to do with me.
But then again… I don’t really have much drive to be around them either ^^
There’s nothing wrong with men my age or olderI’m just being honest about being attracted to younger people. I know most men are attracted to hard young bodies. That’s why we don’t have much porn that features older models.
The man I was most recently involved with is 10 years younger than me. He’s attracted to older guys — I’m actually a bit younger than he prefers.
I was in the grocery store the other day and a gorgeous young woman smiled and said hello. She flirted with me a couple of time as we passed in the aisles. Everyone knows (or can imagine) how good that feels.
I know that if I walked down Santa Monica Blvd. in West Hollywood, the boys wouldn’t give me a second glance. They would be revolted if I said hello to them.
So, my options are rather limited if I’m looking for a beautiful young lover. That’s all I’m trying to say. I’m not totally wrapped up in age or appearance. I’m not denying that it is important either.
Wait until you’re 50and other 50 year olds won’t have anything to do with you.
They’re all looking for 26 year olds!
Over 40 and menopauseIt’s biological, I think. What’s the point in staying with a man who’s purpose is to have you create a baby with him that you can no longer conceive, when another woman can put you in sexual fulfillment in a liberating and different way? Life is about change, so why not change when a biological time clock says it is time to change ? But I am a bisexual, so what do I know? Just a thought.
well..that may be true, but I don’t have the same options that you have. So, if no one wants me then I’ll just enjoy friends and other aspects of life. Which is basically what I do already, sex has lost it’s initial intrigue.
I wouldn’t go out on a limb to say that my gayness is controlled by how other gay men find me in the looks department. I’ve gone thru different periods of gay-induced drama/rejection but never lost a lick of gayness. I’m not bisexual, so I don’t know how that works.
I’m not quite sure if the ‘Over 40, Over Men’ phenomenon has much to do with who finds the lovely over-40 woman attractive. I think it has to do with an overall easing in attitudes towards gay (particularly lesbian) relationships. While it’s still taboo, more and more people have realized that their inner feelings are deserving of exploration. Nowadays you can meet other like-minded individuals and give it a go. It’s just more possible. I think it’s great they have given themselves the chance to enjoy sexual freedom.
See the movie ExtractIt’s about heterosexual relationships, but it tells us something about everyone and relationships, gay and straight. The couple want to experiment and the wife has an affair with a very young horse hung male prostitute. See how it ends. It is good sometimes to test a a long term relationship and brings the couple closer through honesty and love. Love is stronger than sex.
Fritz, you are reactiveYou are being a passive flower waiting for the honey bee. Not proactive. Don’t rely on others to define you or to give you self esteem through your looks. Everyone on this planet is growing older and will die someday. Love yourself and then you will be happy, even when getting much older and living alone.
HMMMM… being over 40 and het,,,In fact celebrating 39th Anniv. today… I can imagine a woman might understand female sexual triggers better… but just can't even imagine it. In fact I read almost all M/M literature now..Only interested in MEN and sex..and the fact that they can be/must be independent, strong etc to exist…not a wimpy dependent. I suspect a lot of it is true Freudian penile envy..but there we are.Have SIL though who is over 40 and F/F now. I read, but its probably passe…thats as in LUG (Lesbian until graduation0 or LAM (Lesbian after menopause)..she was engaged to an alchoholic fem man before so maybe bi..don't know. Having a true 'opposite' gender partner is not easy…but what I chose.. for many reasons.
I’m getting my honey…Believe me. It is just getting much easier to be the stamen rather than the pistil.
i am in the article you quote herei’m the melanie in the article and the writer used more of my salacious comments than others and pam, you used the most sex-driven comment of all buuuuut, how can you people read this and pass judgment such as..
we are “over men but not connected to the lesbian gay community or out or politically active”…how dare you all just past judgment such as, “their husbands don’t find them attractive”, yada yada
i came out b/c a friendship opened in me something that was always there, but had been suppressed by societal norms…i never fit in and didn’t know why..i lived a happily hetero life and then it all changed…
i find it abhorrent that gays for life look down on those of us who come to it late, judging us as not real or looking for new action…
i am involved in my community and guess what, i accept gays and trannies and all people b/c it is not up to me to judge…imagine all the gays fighting for equal rights but passing judgment like below on their very own…shame on you
MoreHi, Pam,
“More” is actually a pretty forward-looking magazine. They did a piece on me and other women who made life transitions in mid-life, and the editor at the time, Susan Crandell, then wrote a book about us called, “Thinking About Tomorrow.”
Hold on, MelWhoa, sister. Karen was not passing judgment on you or anyone. She was commenting on the tone of the article. If you have an issue with being painted as someone who wants to have her cake and eat it too (and I would also be upset with that), take it up with Tamara Jones, who wrote the article. I read the article in full, and that did seem to be the tone. It wasn’t terribly complimentary, and of course Tamara Jones used only your most salacious comments. She’s trying to sell her writing! Send her feedback if you’re upset, but don’t jump all over other middle-aged Blenders for discussing their own experiences with men and women. We all have only our own perspective from which to work.
Pam certainly didn’t make any judgments on that score. Her second question even asks 2) It would be interesting to know how many of these women, without previous connection to the LGBT community also come out politically, or remain otherwise agnostic to the civil rights struggles of the community at large?
(And FYI, we don’t use the term “trannies” here since so many transgender/transsexual/intersex folk find it to be derogatory.)
Since Tamara didn’t cast your story in the light in which you tried to tell it, why not tell it here? What was it like coming out later in life? I knew I was bi since early adolescence, but didn’t turn exclusively to women until I was almost 30. I left a husband, began seeing a wonderful woman, and haven’t looked back since.
hi keorii’ll blame the vicodin for putting in anything that would be seen as derogatory…fell of the bike yday and icing and pain med’ing…
i did get defensive…karen’s comment, another about ‘husbands not finding us attractive’ and another about it being menopause and biological…
what was it like? losing my future in the husband i loved and the family i helped create…scary and exciting and entirely natural…micki in the article and i became friends at a support group weekend run by joanne fleisher…micki’s comment about het being a second language that you didn’t realize was a second language until you find your first language in homosexuality sums it up…micki was featured on oprah a month after this More article came out
my best friends are women who came out late, just like me, but many for other reasons than i and many who always knew, unlike me…some divorced, some dated men again, lots of different paths…i also have many friends who did not walk this path but accept me as one of them
when i was coming out, i heard “you’re not a real lesbian” several times so pardon me being defensive…comes from experience
and i apologize to transgender folks who i might have pissed off…no harm meant at all…
peace
wow take care of that injury!and thank you for filling in a bit more about your story. you should know that lots of blend commenters came out late(ish) in life as LGBT. so you’re not in a forum of “lifers” by any means, although many such people are here too. me for one, although i didn’t think about sexuality at all until very late in my teens, so i’m always a bit in awe of people who say they knew they were lgbt since age 4.
it sucks that anyone had the gall to call you not really gay. as if anyone has the patent to the title, lol! the thing is you can find people in any sub-group in society to find fault with newcomers. it’s no different among lgbt folks, and i just take that as another point of proof that all in all, we’re no better or worse than any other subset of society.
my wife came out later in life too. she was at a bit of a loss as to how to find “the community” when she decided to explore her feelings, but eventually she found a corner of it she liked, came out to her straight friends and let them opt out (virtually all opted to remain friends, i’m happy to say), so she never felt the need to totally leave one society and enter another.
I think the article speaks specificly to the women now 50′s and 60′sSince I’m also in that age range, and had two longterm partners older than I am, who were married previously, and many friends within a decade older than me.
The pressures to marry, weren’t even 20% on men of my generation, compared to how women were pressured. Stonewall wasn’t happening when many of them made their decisions to marry. They did what society expected them to, and there was no sign there was any other way to live.
OW!Oo, do take care of that injury. When you say bike, do you mean a motorcycle or bicycle? I used to ride a Magna 750 before Honda stopped making them.
It must have been incredibly scary, having your whole life upended by the experience. If I may ask, how did your husband deal with it? The article said “financial and insurance reasons,” but do family obligations have anything to do with your decision to stay legally married to him? If he is truly that supportive, lucky you! When I attempted to tell my ex about my growing desire for women he railed at me and called me all sorts of horrible names.
There’s a trendAt least in the younger gay community. Gay life in general seems harsher towards age barriers* than other cultures. Young goes with young, old goes with old, and if young goes with old it’s because young has a certain thing for old.
*Many books I’ve read suggest the sort of barrier exists because of AIDS-era homophobia. There were no such thing as homosexual idols back then, so most closeted gays interacted with one another (mostly sexually) regardless of age barrier. But eventually people began to draw the correlation that “gay boy with older ‘heterosexual’ man” meant something naughty was going on, so people started linking homosexuality to pedophilia, and the stigma probably still exists.
on the magSince I’ve not read it before, the particular issue doesn’t seem much different than many other women’s mags, save the demographic it’s targeting. It skews heterosexual because, well, most of the readers are. That’s not an accusation that it’s not forward looking (witness the article in question), so it did surprise me given the other content. It would be good to see the letters to the ed and responses to the article from regular readers of More.
Hi MelanieI didn’t pass any judgment on the women who come out later in life; it was refreshing to see the candid nature in which they commented, including yourself.
Personally, I didn’t find the comments I pulled salacious. I thought, as I said above, that it was simply a candid expression of the feelings that emerged. Those kind of thoughts are rarely seen in a magazine of this type, which is a more general audience.
Regarding the question about involvement in the LGBT community after coming out, again, no judgment was assigned. It wouldn’t surprise me if these women didn’t become as involved, since their worldview and social circles are in flux. It takes quite a long time for someone who comes out earlier in life to decide whether to be politically active in the community. Sadly, too many “early adopters” aren’t involved. IF ONLY more out LGBTs would actually get as informed about the issues as they need to be.
In fact, one could ask the same question of socially out but professionally closeted gays, or the Log Cabin crowd, who place their sexual orientation and civil rights behind fiscal conservatism and GOP support ahead on their priority list.
I wonder how much is due to Hormone balance?Hormones do cause neurological changes.
While I would find it very difficult to believe that any form of hormonal or other change of circumstances – including torture AKA “reparative therapy” – could change sexual orientation from straight to gay, or vice-versa, there’s plenty of evidence of people who are somewhat bisexual – but whose neurochemistry suppresses that – having their sexual orientation change when exposed to a radical new hormone balance.
To me, being Lesbian is only sensible. But it’s not something you can change by logic. If you are, you are, if not, you’re not.
hi pamhi, pam…i love you and i love your site…thanks for providing us with your daily blend…
to keori…we share children, the wasband and i…his job and health were temporarily in flux, i have seen too many people bitch and moan about who pays what…seemed to me, once his anger and sadness had passed, that it was best for us financially (insurance, home, bills, tax) and emotionally (to not argue over who pays what) to just keep it all together for now…i came out in 2001 to him right away, before i crossed ANY boundaries with women, emo or physically…i came out to my kids a year and a half after, and moved out of the home in 05, living nearby…i am out out out, sitting on the board of the local filmfest group, marching in pride, being active in political fundraisers, etc. i ‘modeled’ for the local lgbt health clinic, so my face is ‘known’ as a gay woman in town. my kids are happy again, even attending gay events with me (hrc inaugural ball and filmfest opening night), the wasband and i get along, we have met each others’ girlfriends (and sometimes argue over whose is hotter…kidding…maybe)…just the way i chose to do it.
and it was a bicycle accident, though in milwaukee, where i live part time and am surrounded by motorcycles, especially harleys
respectfully, mel
Pam, whenever you post about doing something good for yourself…… it makes me feel good. Well, maybe “relieved” would be a better word. I know its none of my business, and I apologize if I am out of line, but I just worry about you. You are so busy! I don’t know how you manage to do it all, and I am glad to see you taking some time for yourself.
thanks. I was offline most of the dayEnjoying it with Kate and the dogs. I didn’t go online in earnest until I wrote the post about the school girls getting strip searched.
It was therapeutic to spend the day walking the dogs, just doing some light housework and not getting on the computer.
Now I have to get back to not only blogging some, but working on day job stuff and powerpoints for the Equality Alabama conf. and my speech for NC Pride. Ah, too short a break!