As many of y’all know, I’ve had problems in the recent past with how the terms cissexual and cisgender — as opposite terms to the terms transsexual and transgender respectively — have been used at here at Pam’s House Blend. These two cis-related terms that were envisioned as neutral terms are very easily modified by other descriptors — both for good and for ill.
Here at Pam’s House Blend, I’ve seen cissexual and cisgender turned into weaponized terms by the descriptors connected to the cis- terms. But at the same time, I’ve seen the terms used in a neutral fashion.
Specifically, in Monica Roberts’ piece What A Difference A Year Makes (that we saw crossposted to Pam’s House Blend on Saturday, September 5, 2009), cisgender was used in an intentionally neutral manner to convey the idea of “not transgender” people. In context (emphasis added):
…Back in May 2008 I wrote a TransGriot post entitled ‘Destruction of the Black Transwoman Image.’In that post I pointed out that transwomen have some of the same problems as our cisgender sisters when it comes to Black womanhood. I also lamented in that post the lack of positive trans role models of African descent.
Just three months after I wrote that, things started to change…
Roberts used the term neutrally as a term to identify people who aren’t transgender people, as in the same vein of others have neutrally used the term straight to identify people who aren’t gay.
To turn the terms straight or cisgender into positive or negative terms, the modifiers are the key words. If one calls someone a straight ally, it’s a lot different than calling someone a homobigoted straight person. In the same vein, calling someone a cisgender ally would convey a much different meaning than transbigoted cisgender person.
At this point; however, how one personally hears the terms cissexual and cisgender becomes a function of one’s internal filtering. Fritz makes the case that the term cisgender is a term that should be avoided by transgender activists in his diary Uniracial vs. Cisgender: Why Language Matters. He argues that we need fewer labels rather than more labels, and that cisgender (and by extension cissexual) is just one more term we just don’t need. Fritz goes on as far to say that use of the term cisgender by Monica Roberts was both “inappropriate and unnecessary.” Well, Fritz’s opinion is one I’m going to respectfully going to disagree with.
This isn’t to say that Fritz has came to his conclusion in an unreasonabe manner at all, but instead to say that his conclusion and mine are much different.
For those of you who are viscerally offended by the terms cissexual or cisgender, yet still want to read about trans issues here at Pam’s House Blend — or on other feminist and other lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender websites — it’s going to be tough for you into the future to stay up on trans thought. These two cis- terms are terms that feminist and trans communities have pretty much already embraced as neutral terms to describe the state of being not transsexual (cissexual) and not transgender (cisgender).
And, since the piece by Monica Roberts was crossposted from the feminist website Feministe, and cisgender and cissexual are terms that are now common terms in feminist discussion about trans people and trans issues…well, I know I’m not going to ignore important works on important trans related issues if a person uses the terms cissexual or cisgender in his, her, or hir writings.
Like or hate these two cis- terms, these cis- terms are here to stay. For my part, I’m going to be that get along-go along kind of trans person regarding those two terms, and use these as neutral terms when these terms fit what I’m trying to communicate.




269 Comments


Before we start discussion……I’m dropping this moderation card:
Let’s keep all discussion in this thread civil, shall we? Let’s not personally attack others, or attack others’ identity communities here.
While I am quite interested…… in having the discussion (and let’s be frank, I’m a rather vocal defender of the use of these terms), I am not really all that hopeful.
For one, historically here at PHB (and other places), there is a noticeable lack of willingness to engage in trans subjects. Of any sort. This is akin to the discussions on race here — its one of those things that everyone wants to avoid talking about because it is a minefield of personal filters and Identity battles.
Trans* and Cis* are not about Identity.
I responded to Fritz’ post there, so I’m interested in seeing how people react, now tat the hullabaloo fro the previous situation has died.
I’m well aware that as a result of that previous row, I’m not looked on fondly. It’s ok, though. I’m a big girl and I’ll only whine about it a little.
agree, disagreeI disagree with Fritz as well. Terminology is useful in describing the natural world. If we care about understanding the world then we must be able to name things, and name them accurately.
Also, when you refuse to name something, someone else usually comes along and does it for you, and not always the way you would like. That’s a lesson for anyone who “doesn’t believe in labels”.
As for the words themselves, I have no high hopes they will be used correctly by most people. They are academic terms being transposed into casual conversation. Like the word “theory”, which in science means the highest proof you can get, just short of mathematical proofs; but in casual language it means “a guess” (which is exactly what intelligent design/creationism proponents take advantage of when they go around lying and telling everyone that evolution is “only a theory”).
In an academic sense, “transgender” is an umbrella term that broadly means “deviating from gender norms”. Arguably, all gay and lesbian people fall under this category. Transgender is a theoretical concept that is useful in understanding group dynamics, but it utterly fails as an accurate description of a given individual.
“Cisgender” is more specific I think, and refers to someone whose brain gender identity is aligned with their biological sex in the traditional sense. This word is more useful in describing an individual person. But it’s also more personal, so unless you know someone very well, I don’t know why you would be bringing this up.
…
But regardless, I think Autumn hit the nail on the head here – it’s not so much the terms themselves, but the context and the modifiers.
OOPSI messed up, I meant to say “transgender” is an umbrella term (paired with “cisgender”), and “transsexual” is the more specific term (paired with “cissexual”).
Sorry!
TerminologyGood to have you on board, Autumn. I’ve been working for years to make those terms current in our language, as “non-” anything, by definition, has negative connotations.
And as an organic chemist I just love how basic carbon-carbon double bond terminology is now in general use in the LGBT population
Whine away…Cisgender and cissexual for the most part aren’t idenities, much as for the most part straight isn’t an identity.
But that said, all three of these terms are tied to identity discussions.
And most definitely, trans feminist Julia Serano popularized the terms cissexual and cisgender in her book Whipping Girl, which definitely is a feminist work.
I’m hoping we discuss ideas instead of people with this discussion at PHB, and remember to respect everyone’s identity groups in how we discuss this as well. We can have reasonable discussions around virtual cups of coffee and tea with our blender friends — if we all work at being reasonable towards others with varrying opinions.
I knowwikipedia is not the best source but that’s where I looked up cisgender and it just didn’t make any sense.
That being said, is that what I need to use instead of transgendered or what?
I just don’t want anyone thinking I’m some ignorant bigoted lesbian because I use the term transgendered.
I am not all that knowledgeable about trans issues and I try to keep my nose out of it because so many people get their undies in a wad if you use the wrong term and I just don’t have time for that.
That being said, I have no issues with the trans community. I just don’t want to get my head bit off for using the wrong terms.
Is it wrong that I feel like Kelly Bundy from Married With Children……in thinking that this carbon-carbon double bond stuff is just sky-ance?
I’ll stick to word-smithing, thank you very much! 
Btw, I’ve been on the dark side of The Force with these cis- terms for awhile, Dr. Dana, if the the dark side of The Force is where most of our peers are.
Since Pam’s House Blend operates from the media perspective……we use transgender terminology like it’s spelled out in the The GLADD Media Guide‘s Transgender Glossary.
The best write up on the cisgender and cissexual terminology is probably from Julia Serano herself, who explains her use of the terms here.
that livejournal linkreally helped. Just with the first paragraph.
So…let me get this straight:
I was born a female and I identify as a female, so I’m a cisgender?
I have a friend who was assigned the male gender at birth and identifies as a female, so that makes her transgendered, no?
It just seems like so much terminology to master. So many issues, so little time.
Interesting and applicable intersection:Also at Feministe, a short while before Monica wrote …Difference…, she wrote an applicable post regarding what happens when Black individuals speak up about racism and are challenged on it by others.
IT is quite applicable here, in terms of intersectionality.
http://www.feministe.us/blog/a…
looking at the GLAAD linkSorry for using the term “transgendered.” ::sigh::
No term is immune from mis-use
Exactly. I’d also add tone of voice and body language. I think that most people who have had the misfortune of hearing some sleazebag use the latest approved terminology in a voice dripping with condescension for all things pee cee will agree that just about any term can be used in a negative fashion.
With regard to the danger of the enemy defining terms, I’m most interested in terms that are inextricably linked with a frame that prevents rational inquiry, e.g. “pro-life” (who wants to represent the pro-death side?!?). If cisgender, as a term, does this, then it isn’t obvious to me yet.
I have seen cisgender used in neutral fashion as part of rational discourse, and I have also seen it used as a weapon, but unless and until someone introduces me to an equally-useful categorical term that is demonstrably less prone to mis-use, I think I’ll reserve my energy for other fights.
For myself…I’ve come to embrace the terms as long as the terms are not used in a discussion to invoke implied “privileged”. When it is used that way I take exception.
I think that is where there is difficulty. I have seen a lot of people use the terms in this way and because the terms cover a broad range of people it causes problems.
I try not to be lazy with any terms that could be used in privilege discussions because of the obvious slippery slope it may cause. And this applies not just to the cis terms. For example, a gay straight-acting wealthy white Northern-suburb living man has more privilege than a gay effeminate poor white Southern boy. A gay straight-acting wealthy white Norther-suburb living man also has more collective privilege than a heterosexual poor black woman living in the South. So you can see, even the gay/straight terms are too broad to imply privilege. Likewise a gay cissexual effeminate-acting Southern non-white (or should I say ciswhite) guy might very well have less privilege than a beautiful (yes looks can lead to privilege) transsexual married (assuming they live in a state where this is possible) white woman.
Other obviously would disagree with me, but I don’t like being grouped with other people is discussion where the terms are used with implied privilege. When people say “Of course you cisgendered people would assume this or that…” or “Obviously cisgendered people would take issue and not understand…”, you have grouped me with straight bigoted people, gay bigoted people, big T ignorant people (at least I try to make an effort to understand T issues) and a whole host of other people. Hell you’ve just grouped me with the Phelps clan and people who would watch the Faux News Channel.
WHAT?I think you are confused PurpleLove08. Cisgender is the opposite of transgender. Cisgender means “not transgender” (and transgender means “not cisgender”).
Also, I don’t think you should be adopting words just because other people want you to. That’s not a good reason to learn things and change your own attitudes.
Give yourself some credit! Learn the terms, figure out of they make sense to you, don’t be afraid to ask questions.
There’s nothing wrong with the terms cisgender or transgender, but still, you shouldn’t just blindly accept other people’s terminology.
WaitNo you did get it right, in your 12:45:41 post.
Crap now I’m getting confused. I am bowing out of this conversation now, lol.
Seems like the discussion is going fairly well anyway, good luck!
“Transgendered” is more of a grammar issue……than an offense issue, for most trans folk I know who care about which of those words are used to describe us.
As an adjective, the -ed ending for transgendered is just grammatically incorrect. I know on a personal level, the term transgendered just kind of grates on me in the same way that the term irregardless grates on me — stricltly grammar.
As I’ve said before at PHB though, I wish I could use transgender as a noun — but the powers-that-be in the LGBT journalism/styleguide world have declared the term to be an adjective. If it were a noun, I could say gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgenders…but since transgender isn’t a noun, one can’t pluralize the term transgender in that way and still be grammatically correct.
AgreedIt should not be automatically conflated with “privilege”, and that was always what I had a problem with before in the last squabble over this.
Majority privilege is another academic concept useful in studying history and group dynamics in a college sociology class. Not so good when applied to a real live individual in casual conversation.
Will.What you are talking about is intersectional privilege, and using it as a comparison to a specific kind of privilege.
May I take a few moments and explain this to you in more detail without you getting defensive about it?
I would need to know one thing: are you gay?
I mentioned in the first thread where cis was used a lot, that it was off puttingFor me a little of that term goes a long way. It could be my own unfamiliarity to it, or that it seemed to be used in a pajorative and hostile manner.
I asked dys if it was meant as a nuetral term like straight, or if it had the meaning of breeder, meant to be angry and derisive. I also noticed it was used in more academic style posts, they didn’t come off conversational, they came off as lecturing.
Heterosexuals didn’t pick the term straight, gays and lesbians stuck them with that term. Maybe cis will become run of the mill with enough common usage, but it will ruffle some feathers if you try to push it too fast too hard.
This is exactly whatI was trying to figure out earlier in the year, with my well-intentioned, but incredibly poorly timed, diary earlier this year.
Having never seen “cis” applied in any manner other than with a scientific usage, I had no idea whatsoever of the implications or the emotions… still working on educating myself further as to better understand.
Not conflation, but…discussion of privilege is inherent in its use when noting comparative behavioral issues.
That does mean that by default it always defers to the general, but the perception of it as specific touches off issues that the privileged always react negatively to.
GLAAD helped meI saw that in the GLAAD link.
I guess all those years of “advanced” English classes didn’t help. :p
Transgender community sounds wrong but I guess grammatically it’s correct.
Eshto I just want to be well rounded and I hate being ignorant. I had never heard of the term “cisgender” until I started reading Pam’s House Blend. I always figured I knew a bit more than the average person about transgender issues (which really isn’t saying much…).
It doesn’t hurt for me to learn new things. I’m 19 and have a whole lot more to learn.
Agreed- I think…I am still way over my head on this one!
Never thought about myself as being straight until I started reading here and other places a few years ago and the realization of the various privileges has come with time as well.
That “straight” could also be used as an insult, depending on discussion tone or intention, took longer to realize. And when I did, it also became apparent that my comfort with calling myself straight was in itself offensive to those who consider the word an insult.
Language can be such a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” Catch-22… there appear to be no absolute rules applicable to all situations.
My experience with the terminology for the longest time was that the opposite of “transgender” was “normal”. Much like the opposite of “gay” was “normal” when I was growing up. I hated hearing that, but didn’t know any term other than the very clunky “non-transgender.” I’m glad I found out about the cis- terminology. I think it may work to help people examine their privilege. (Since it is the privileged who get to come up with labels for everything that is not like them, lacking a label is often a sign of privilege.) I’ll admit I know very little about the transgender community, and I’ve met very few openly trans folk, so PHB has been a huge help for me in becoming more educated and facing my own privileges.
And she told yadidn’t she, lol?
Because the bulk of what is being done with the term in cis populations is educational in nature, it will often be used in situations where one is going to be lecturing.
Small doses work great for some people — but how about a small dose of equality? TOo much might be bad you know.
Cis exists to normalize the variance between trans and everyone else.
Recently, in some of my writing, I postulated something that held there were five variants, of which cis, trans, and inter were but three of them.
A good part of the reason for that is people like Fritz.
you are getting it…
@danabeyerI don’t believe “non-trans” has a feel of being negative (for me), but maybe to transpeople it feels that way.
I think if non trans and cis were used interchangably, and in casual posts, it will get the rest of us comfortable with cis. Just my opinion.
It also wouldn’t hurt if people heard cis from COOL people or entertainers they admire, rather than it feeling like it came from professors. The former, people will want to immitate, the later gets shoved into the catagory “too PC.”
Why non- is negativeNon- means not.
Not is a negative concept, in and of itself.
In this case, to say non-trans means that trans is still not “normal”, when the purpose of cis is to create an equitable status where both trans and cis are normal.
By saying non-trans, you are still saying Not normal.
Since transfolk are just as ordinary and everyday as anyone else, the use of non trans actually furthers the mental understanding of the concept of trans as not everyday and ordinary.
THIS is exactly when feathers become ruffled“Small doses work great for some people — but how about a small dose of equality? TOo much might be bad you know.”
It comes off… my way is the ONLY way (ALL or NOTHING) and snide.
If that’s how cis is going to be used, OK, but it will have the exact people you are naming….tune out.
hmm…I see where you’re coming from, but to me using non-trans isn’t negative.
non-X…
It’s just the opposite of X.
I’m all for “cis” terminology.. but no one knows what it means. How are you going to explain that without putting a negative marker in front of trans?
Even if you craft this amazing definition without using any nons, nots, isn’ts, etc… still in people’s head the definition will break down to this: cis = non-trans.
Not to be offensive, I just think it’s reading too far into simple language consructions we need to have discussions.
I Like Cisgender, I USE CisgenderI started using ‘cisgender’ when when one of our allies pointed out that my then use of the term ‘biowoman’ in feminist blogosphere circles could be construed as insulting.
And frankly, cisgender is the perfect solution to that dilemma. It not only states that your brain gender and body are in alignment, it does not put us trans folks in the ‘other’ or ‘abnormal’ category.
So get used to seeing me in my writing the cisgender word.
And if you’re going to as Fritz did tune out because I put it there, especially in a post designed to give you better insight on your African descended trans brothers and sisters, it’s your loss.
if cis-gendered means not transgendered Then all those who tell me I’m not cis-gendered/cissexual are full of it…….just saying.
Personally I feel absolutely no good comes from this whole cis nonsense. For those born transsexual using such terms places the gender identity of one’s brain at odds with the final total destination thereby making an actual, full, complete transition all but impossible.
And I do not consider Serano a feminist thinker of any import at all…..that is a personal opinion…..and feminist circles are far far away from embracing “cis” terminology over all. Outside of those feminist blogs with vocal transgender members, the terms are considered ludicrous at best, insulting as the standard. Let’s not misrepresent the facts here.
They aren’t misrepresenting them, thoughSorry Cathy.
Won’t go further into it with you, as you know perfectly well its being simplified in order to explain it more clearly, but, so you know:
You are, indeed, cisgender. You aren’t exactly cissexual, though.
Well, answer the question then. peteyHow about a small dose of equality?
Because that’s ultimately what the use of these terms is about, petey — equality.
Equality in language, in expression, in discussion.
And if people tune out, Petey, why is that?
its not offensiveAnd indeed, you point out something about it that is important to note:
the simplified description is easier to swallow for most people. We use it so they can grasp it quickly, and easily.
Petey is talking about how it seems really academic — when the basic truth is if I described it in less than simple terms I would be getting academic.
If it breaks down into non-trans in their heads, that’s ok — that’s still better than the way non-trans breaks down: normal.
to clarify……I was born intersexed, surgically constructed transsexual at birth by operation.
My sense of “gender”, sense of self, gender identity, however you wish to put it has been female consistently from my earliest awareness just as it is for all classic transsexuals.
Therefore I am not transgender…..
Therefore, according to the usage of cis being tossed around, I am cisgendered. Since my body is now long corrected, I’m also “cissexual”….. These terms are simply insulting or in opposition or deny reality of actual transition when they are defined as they are and then applied as they are being applied.
I maintain that to tell me I am not and never will be cisgendered or cissexual is the exact same as saying I’m not a “real” woman despite the fact I was born with female genitals, corrected what was done to me at birth and always saw myself as female. And this is what is wrong with the terms, they set forever apart the idea that transition is real, that you reach a conclusion and can ever be on even terms with the rest of the world once you have completed transition and that I utterly reject as insulting and bigoted.
If cis/trans term discussions, feels like a minefield Don’t expect folks to want to stroll through them…I won’t
excuse me?and you get to tell me who and what I am because?
The users of cis have a responsibility how they introduce it to a broader audienceThe audience has responsibility to be open to getting comfortable with a new term,(new to them.)But if you insist that they get up to your speed or ELSE….or else is what you’re left with.
I’m evil.but you knew that already.
since we are tossing around terminologyI coined the term neo-gynophobic to cover this cis-centric denial of actual womanhood of post corrected women. Half the language usage tossed around in trans circles today is neo-gynophobic in nature. I was banned here a year ago for expressing that in feminist terms.
So its the “or else”Intersection to the article I linked to by Monica already.
Or, in visual terms:
yesBasically, I was coming from a conversational standpoint. Saying non-smoker never gives a negative connotation. People think being a non-smoker is good. It’s just what came to mind when you said using non- creates a negative connotation.
Crafting the language we use in our discussions is important. It’s even more difficult when you throw in various groups trying to meld together and move forward.. we have to define our groups while not alienating the other.
Much like we do with straight allies who deserve to be in our conversations without feeling their heterosexuality keeps them under constant attack for their privilege.
The truth of the matter is, these cis-terms are great. But there is a backlash from certain people who feel that, even after putting their best foot forward about trans issues, are being labeled from the outside. No one wants to take on labels they don’t understand.
I think the best way to move on with the cis argument is to just use the terms. But don’t attack people who don’t adopt the term. As language works, people will begin to use it if negative connotations are lost.
My initial reaction wasn’t that cis shouldn’t or couldn’t be usedIt was the quantity of repeating the term, that turned me off.
Sarcasm and snark online are tricky without visual cues, so if something is said playfully, to another reader it may come across serious.
Why will people tune out?
Because if you make it unpleasant, or a chore, or fraught with the danger they are offensive, they’ll go do something else.
it’s not my job http://images.cafepress.com/im…
to blow sunshine up your a$$
that was me tuned out
I know, PeteyIts one of the reasons I like you. You get this. All of it.
And you understand how it is sort of like “throwing it in your face” all the time, “pushing it on you”, making you feel uncomfortable by bringing it up all the time.
I’m rarely sarcastic — and I avoid it in written terms to a degree people might not realize.
Snark? Occasionally — but by the time I get to snark, I’ve already tried everything else.
No, it isn’t.And I never expected you to do so.
I’m somewhat more comfortable with the terms “cisgender” than I wasBut I do find myself agreeing with Will St. James that any discussion of “privilege” is far more multifaceted and intersectional than the discussion of any one set of privileges can contain.
Which is why the concept of intersection arose…… out of black feminism.
To explain not only where they cross, but how just because they do cross, that doesn’t excuse the points where they don’t being ignored.
sigh
Sure…I would not be offended in this discussion if the terms are used loosely because this is sort of an academic/learning discussion (I think someone else brought that up). I think it is more in the casual conversations that there is a need to be more careful about the terms, especially because it is hard to determine tone or intent in written messages. So educate away, I’m always up for learning something new.
To answer your other question yes I am a gay person. More specific I am a gay white male straight-acting (if that is even a term but it does carry weight). But I was also brought up poor and I live in the deep South. My privileges are those associated with being white and male. However, I have no freedom of expression about who I am because of where I live. Being out can get you shot around here (and yes I am being serious–the ex leader of one of the white supremacists groups lives in the same county I do), but being able to blend in is a privilege that more effeminate acting people (gay or straight) do not have in this area. I also have cisgender privilege in employment (although I do live in a right to fire state and gays are not protected but it is a step above transgender privilege), also in healthcare, and acceptance. Although as a funny side note on acceptance I went once to a concert with some pretty homophobic/transphobic acquaintances once and there was a beautiful transsexual woman that we were seated on the lawn next too and they hit on her the entire concert. You should have seen their faces when I told them on the ride home who they were hitting on. A couple of them still don’t believe me, but I could tell. Also although homo/transphobic these people are not violent and even if they knew it would not have caused any problems. But I would have heard a lot of transphobic bullshit on the way home…about the same homophobic bullshit I hear from the same people.
I am not going to try to absolve my privilege like others do by saying I’ve got T friends (you know like Sarah Palin has gay friends) or because I donate to T causes (YouthPride in Atlanta by the way has great programs for T groups). But I do try to education (and yes I could do more learning myself ) on T issues whenever I can. I was recently at supper with a Baptist minister when the subject came up. He said “I don’t want to know these people, I don’t even want to be in the same room with them, it is not natural and I just don’t want to be around it”. Being not-out to these people (I refuse to say closeted because that’s not quite a label that fits me) I tried to frame the conversation as best I could by saying “What about the every 1 in 500 males that are born XXY, what gender are they supposed to act like since God made the naturally have both” Of course, I had to go on to explain in their terms what I was talking about because they had no clue and I couldn’t use the academic politically correct way of discussing the issue because they wouldn’t understand. Of course the people at the table had no clue about XXY or Klinefelter’s and needless to say they were speechless at the end. Maybe only a crack in the big old kettle pot but at least I made them think about it.
No I do understand my privilege and I do own it. I just hope others who might use the terms loosely and negatively in casual conversations understand that the words can hurt to those who are on their side (even if we friends don’t always put forth the effort we should to their causes).
The existance of different forms of privilege doesn’t mean we shouldn’t discuss privilege…I don’t think it’s useful to try to create “privilege hierarchies” or say that X type of people are always more privileged than Y type of people, but that doesn’t mean we can’t identify specific types of privilege that someone with certain characteristics holds.
For example, I experience cissexual privilege because when I apply for a job requiring a background check I don’t have to worry that the employer will reject me because of past legal sex markers. A trans person might experience some other form of privilege that I don’t experience, but that doesn’t erase the forms of privilege that I hold.
To the same extentAs a trans person, I lack cisprivilege, but as a heterosexual, I possess heterosexual privilege.
oopsYour “Sun Sep 06, 2009 at 14:23:08 PM EDT” post basically says what I was trying to say in forms of acknowledging different forms of privilege. So just ignore the prior post of mine.
O yea…I didn’t mean for my cisgendered privilege list about to be exhaustive, just some examples. I know the list is longer.
btw cis-sexual is even more dangerous a term than cisgenderMany gays and lesbians who read posts meant to be objectionable to us, (from haters), use homosexual, because they won’t do us the courtesy to call us what we call ourselves. They might as well say sodomite.
Just as Limbaugh being too cute by half saying Negro, might as well say N*GGER, because that is how it’s intended, and how it’s accurately interpreted.
I won’t ignore itbecause it’s well said.
We should have discussions about our different privileges, but not let them come down to an “I have it worse than you” argument.
If we avoid a pissing contest, then we can move forward and find out how to equalize privilege between all people.
I don’t understandAre you saying that because cissexual shares a root with homosexual that we shouldn’t use cissexual? Would you also argue we shouldn’t use transsexual?
And for that matter, I use the terms heterosexual and homosexual at times when I want to describe object choice rather than identity. In particular, I often use those terms to describe people who lived before our present categories existed. For example, I will say “XXXXX seems to have been exclusively attracted to members of the same sex and was probably homosexual.”
And that was also you getting too personal.Remember what I said at the top of this thread.
If/when we disagree on issues or terminology, let’s not make the discussion personal.
Innocence by exemption?(upon review it seems that what follows is somewhat cis/trans-sexual-centric)
To me, the main function of the cis term is to make explicit that everyone is implicated in the context of gender identity/expression; to positively identify the majority party beyond normal on an equivalent axis, in the same manner as terms such as straight/heterosexual function in the context of sexuality.
When I see the cis/trans dynamic rejected (almost always by cis people), I can’t help but sense that there is some degree to which they feel threatened by the suggestion that trans people are not some sort of abject anomaly but rather analogous beings who differ in terms of a shared characteristic (gender identity).
I believe that until it is broadly understood and communicated that everyone has a gender identity, the sum social legitimacy of trans people will be negligible at best. Essential to this is that we have a term for people who aren’t trans which is positive and not othering, a term such as cis.
Your right, and I apologise for tossing that in the discussionIf you are getting this strong a reaction from the gays here, you are likely getting a stronger objection from straight people (who aren’t allies), but they won’t bother to tell you.
noWhat is being said is that there are unintended insults galore awaiting …..as I explained below, cissexual used to exclude me implies my own womanhood is less than, something I reject as pure bigotry and yet those who would define me and say I am like them are quick to do exactly that…..and fail to see what they are saying.
Setting up oppositional classes means those caught up against their will suffer, ’tis always so.
And here’s where I get booted again……those who live by gender theory are the absolute worst in denial of other’s lives, realities and lives. GLAAD guidelines are absolutely insulting and demeaning to women such as myself but the “gender theory for lunch bunch” shoved them down the throats of gays and lesbians who didn’t know better. Putting me in a third category I absolutely do not identify is violence on my own identity, which is woman without “gender” qualifiers. That’s what the promotion of “transgender” as an umbrella term for even those of us born with a neurological or other intersexed condition who reject that term utterly does, it denies our woman or manhood by shoving us against our will into a third category. This cis garbage is just a further extention of that.
Thank you, Will
First off, the terms can only be used loosely. Seriously — they are terms of class, not of personal identity — which is something that is of critical importance — a person can be a member of a class of persons and not identify as such.
THe reason I asked if you were gay — without going into any of the other more specific concepts, is because I am not, and that knowledge allows me to point out certain areas where intersection plays a part, but that intersection does not erase the aspect of such privilege being present.
I happen to have “straght privilege” or heterosexual privilege. I also have passing privilege — and I’m not talking about the trans kind there. So, in comparative terms, I am a straight white woman from a middle class background.
(I’m also a straight black woman, and straight native woman, but that’s a different issue)
I say that to remove trans from the example for the start.
As a straight person, I have an inordinate amount of privilege that you gain secondhand by being “straight acting” and “not quite in the closet”. THis matches my racial privilege of appearig to many people as white — I gain those benefits secondhand.
For me, to talk about my ex and children are easy things — I do not have to worry about how people will think of that, and if I wanted to get married again, I can, wiyhout having to worry about someone deciding to tell me I cannot do so.
There are other privileges I have — such as I can say “I have gay friends” and be perceived as progressive and understanding and not have to justify myself in saying so in the wider social milieu.
I can walk into a store and have a basic expectation that the manager will also be a straight person. I don’t have to worry about my personal grooming habits being a signal of my sexual orientation to others.
I can reasonably expect to see straight couples in television shows and movies, and not be condemned because my sexual orientation is perceived to be “sinful” or wrong.
All basic examples of privilege in action. Privileges that I have over you, as a matter of recourse.
In the above examples, though, I included one thing that might grate on your nerves a bit.
When people say “straight people think this way in their privilege” I am, as a matter of course, part of that group. The nature of privilege is that it exists as an implied understanding of the way the world works for those who are privileged.
If the opposite of gay were normal, or “not-gay”, then I would gain the effective privilege of being normal, while you would now be abnormal.
If, as a straight person, I were to say “yeah, I outed that gay guy to my friends the other day because I can tell, ya know, even though a couple of them don’t believe me” you would, rightfully so, call me on my exercise of privilege.
You might not call it privielge, as you might percieve it as homophobic — but its not homophobia, as I’m not demonstrating an aversion, a fear, or an intense dislike. ITs me exercising a basic, understood social aspect of what it means to be straight.
Just as you did in your aspect of being cissexual.
That we both share the intersectional aspect of being perceived by the general community as gay (since I’m trans and that’s one of the slurs used against me), that we are both at risk in emplyment and housing because of unwanted prejudice — these things are not erased by our respective aspects of privilege, but concomitant with it — there’s no lesser validty to my having privielge as a heterosexual over you.
Privilege isn’t hiearchical, it cannot exist in a vertical sense, although when one sees the varieties, it is easy to make the error and assume that it is.
Because I am also Black and Native, I learned that lesson very early on. And I didn’t like it.
that’s the ticketprivilege isn’t about how has it the worst.
it is about who has some aspect of expectation and who doesn’t.
Something we are aware of.Well, some of us, at least, lol.
Indeed, its the reason I went to a lot of trouble recently in my own blog posts.
yup
Gays/lesbians and bisexuals are strongly invested with our definition of our sexualitySomeone else redefining what we established for ourselves will have much more resistance to that, than what cis-people are invested in their gender terminology.
If you watch carefullyI don’t attack people who do not adopt them. I suggest they use them in place, and explain why.
I defend and promote their use. Often, I have to defend the why, and that tends to get blown up into something all about the word, because, to be frank and blunt and uncomfortable:
cispeople do not like to be told they have privilege
nopeIt is othering to those who are defined by others as not cis in opposition to our lives. Why the hell is this so damn hard to grasp? Setting up an oppositional class is othering, it cannot help but be anything else.
Actually, this is incorrect.Cisfolk are more invested, as they haven’t had 50 years of effort by transfolks to break it down.
And cissexual is exactly as insulting and dangerous as transsexual.
Only if said oppositonal class is normalOtherwise, its merely descriptive.
Basic linguistics, Cathryn.
Gender theoryis an established fact, Cathryn.
Without it, the arguments you use to define yourself the way you do would not be possible.
this might be more cumbersome than non-transIf “gay/straight allies”, or “gay/straight adversaries” were used interchangably with cis, that might make cis easier to get comfortable with.
bull……most gender theory is nothing more than intellectual masturbation……and I think you know that.
nobodylikes to be told they have privilege.
and just to clarify, I never said you were attacking anyone. I was just making a broad statement about letting a word catch on and do it’s natural thing. By this point, to me, it seems that the cis-words will catch on and become a common, neutral term for everyone to use. Just takes time.
I really enjoy reading these discussions, language is a fascinating topic.
Ah, busted…Most.
Be interesting to see you tackle mine, since I’m not Butlerian in derivation.
And for an exercise in mental masturbation, the last 70 years or so strikes me as a pretty long time to not have a climax.
No, that was not why you were banned.Without rehashing the details, it was that you were warned about violating our terms and conditions of service in your comments and diaries, but you chose to continue to violate those terms of conditions of service.
Except that it doesn’t include all the people who are accurately to be described.Because it isn’t about political identity
you do realizeThis image would apply equally well to the reaction to women of transsexual history by transgenders…….just sayin’
As a matter of fact, yes, yes I doWhich if you think for a bit you’ll realize
Dang, I forgotyou haven’t been keeping up with my recent writings in your shift of priorities.
So maybe you haven’t seen some of the more recent stuff.
Been a very interesting last few weeks for me, Cathryn.
Sorry for the error.
Some of my thoughtsTone and intent are important
Setting academic vs casual conversation
How historicly the audience is already invested in a term.
Pace is another factor, I had asked a question what books would transgender people like cis-people to read about their lives to add to understanding?
The pace I’d read an author, is on my timng, not the author’s. I may have difficulty getting used to the terms, but it’s on my schedule to get familar. Maybe a blog is too immediate and too interactive to allow that pace and comfort-level to grow, without personalities and egos mucking it up. My personality is equally responsible for half the mucking, I admit.
huggsThanks, Petey.
I’m still trying to figure out what five I’d give you — most of the best stuff I’d point people to is still online, although Susan Stryker’s incredible book is absolutely on the list.
If you feel cissexual is offensive from the get go, why use it at all?Unless offending the audience is it’s purpose?
Online writings aren’t a problem to me, versus a bookFor someone on a fixed income, and so far from bookstores, and southern stores that likely wouldn’t even have an LGBT section, online is fine.
OoooI like the phrasing of that, dys; it connected in my head!
Very well stated…And yes I did use my cisgender privilege in pointing out a transsexual person, although I did it under the guise of trying to tamp down a phobia at the same time as trying to educate–because education is a long a arduous process that is person-to-person bit-by-bit.
And although we are on the same page (obviously I’m not up to your level of understanding) there are two points to make about how things should be and with reality. First, I think the reality is that most people do consider privilege as hierarchical. I may be wrong but that, but it is my experience. Although you and I agree that it shouldn’t be thought of that way. I call it the “front of the line” syndrome because we learn at an early age that being in the front of the line is the “best” spot to be. And second, because I think the majority of people think of privilege as hierarchical, that is where the “loosely” stated terms grouping people can really put people off in discussions.
For instance, If a white male (whether gay or straight ally) got on TV and said he wishes the T issues would go away so that ENDA legislation could move forward and then they could come back to it, I would be one of the first crying foul (yes I used a real world example). But if people call this person out by saying “Of course a cisgender white male would think that way” it might offend people in that category who would say “Hey I don’t think that way, I don’t consider myself above you” because they do see privilege as hierarchical. All I am saying is I wish (when not in an academic discussion) that if you want to make privilege a point of debate/conversion that it be specifically called out such as “That man is using his inherit privilege as a member of (whatever group(s)) he is in to suppress the right of another group.”
But I guess (as they say) that I’m old enough where my wants won’t hurt me. (laughs). After all if we can’t get most people to not look at privilege heirarchically, how in the world can I get people to not imply privilege from a word used to group a set of people.
There is also danger of a transgender person saying what cisfolks are or aren’tIt would be like me saying what a woman is or isn’t, and calling them incorrect if we differ.
short noun for “transgender persons”FWIW: I tend to see “transfolk” used around. I don’t know about any professional styleguides or anything, but it works as a plural noun that seems to be inoffensive.
One of the best examples of this
The D.L. Hughley/Dan Savage debate when Hughley said that he didn’t know any black atheists. To be sure, Dan Savage has white privilege (which he uses all to well) but when Hughley say this:
Something like that is loaded with both straight privilege and religious privilege. It’s all the more offensive to me because he practically erases the existence of black atheists (of which I know quite a few, Hughley must not get out much!). Thus claiming religious privilege for all black people. That feeds into all sorts of sh*t.
Actually, noGiven the power differentials between men and women this is an incorrect statement. Trade gay and straight and you would have a better frame of comparison. Care to list the privileges that straight folks use and take for granted without implying that each and every single straight person equally participates in these privileges? This is what you are asking trans people to do.
I guess in summary…When having conversations with anyone…
1. You have to understand your own privilege from all the categories you may fall under. You must be careful not to misrepresent a group you are a member of or alienate a member of another group because of your privilege ignorance or because you failed to separate the intersectional privileges of your groups.
2. You must understand that privilege is not hierarchical, it is amorphous. The many groups and combinations of groups you fall under make your privilege somewhat unique.
3. When talking with others, if they are not on the same page as you with points #1 and #2, using any group name that implies privilege could result in hurt feelings, bruises, and outright warfare.
What Louise said!
I would say the power differentials between men and women is less than power differential between straight and openly gayThere has been much more work on equity between men and women, and more women than openly gay elected to positions of power.
niceI do like the non-smoker example.
I like cis/trans though, I think it’s because if it’s just trans and non-trans, that’s implying (by definition of the non-) that there’s a binary, when in reality there isn’t, ie it opens up room for more terms to describe shades of identity in the space ?
otoh, I can kinda see the argument like: if the main justification is ‘non’ is negative and so risks offending people or judging them, I don’t think non-transgender people are going to be offended by being non-something they aren’t?, whereas telling them they’re now called cisgendered, might do?
perhaps I missed your meaning of power differential analogyWould a woman saying what men are or aren’t be analogous to a transgender person saying what a cis person are or aren’t?
I know much more about what a straight person’s life is like, than I would know what a woman’s life is likeMy having lived 24 years as straight, within a straight family.
I still don’t understandCissexual and cisgender don’t redefine anyone’s sexuality, so I’m not sure what the fact that GLB folks are invested in their sexuality has to do with anything.
Offensiveness of -sexuality as a suffix…I think this is because the far-right tends to exclusively employ homosexual, rather than gay, lesbian, etc., as a sort of epithet.
Which makes it unfortunate when considering the terms cis/trans-sexual, because those are basically the only accurate terms in our vernacular to describe someone in terms of how their gender identity (your sex as you sense it) relates to their assigned sex at birth (what sex you were initially designated as).
If I call myself queer ( or gay), and a transgeder person calls me a cissexualThat’s not what I call myself. If NOM or Tony Perkins calls me homosexual…again not what I call myself.
I don’t invest my identity as “something-gender”, although I suppose masculine, or sissy or fey would venture into that realm. But someone calling me a sissy, doesn’t raise my hackles like someone calling me homosexual. Mainly because I don’t give a sh*t what someone thinks of my masculine/feminine qualities.
But “cis” doesn’t refer to the same area of life as “gay”Someone saying you are cis no more negates your identity as queer or gay than someone calling you American or white negates your identity as queer or gay (not saying you are either of those things, just using them as examples). I understand the argument that “cissexual” includes the same suffix as homosexual and therefore might rub the wrong way, but I don’t get the idea that having someone label you cis* negates other identities.
I guess it’s like warning someone not to GO THERE cuz it pushes your buttonsThen they ignore what you told them and push that button, and they insist they can push that button whenever they choose, and you are incorrect to be offended.
It’s about respecting boundaries, you don’t have to validate to anyone why something irritates you, the fact it does, and you ask others not to push those buttons, and they blithely continue…doesn’t build bridges.
A little reality check.Nobody outside of a small group of people will ever even hear of these words, let alone use them. Parents will not raise their children with them, teachers will not teach them, governments will not recognize them. They will never fall into common usage.
If it makes you feel better to use them or if using them helps you to identify like-minded people or if you really think you can better make a constructive point by using them, you’re not hurting anybody else if you do.
In fact, using these words will have no impact whatsoever on the people who don’t use these words, aside from the confusion or annoyance of anyone using words nobody knows.
However, constructing brand new obstacles to effective communication will have an impact on the people doing so, as it is counter-productive at worst and inefficient at best. If that’s not a concern of if other considerations are more important or if use of these words is not intended for general consumption, have at it.
But if your goal is to convince the world at large to recognize these words, it’s not going to happen. If these words are indeed here to stay, they will stay marginalized. If you really want to make a point more clearly, you use the language in which your audience is already fluent — or you can’t be surprised if you lose them entirely.
Using a couple recent sore spots discussed on PHBIf I used a Black woman’s hair as something which I judged her worth or valued her opinions, knowing it was out of bounds for me, or if I used a woman’s body size to value or devalue her or her opinions, again it would be me venturing into an area which knowingly hurts someone, and hasn’t a thing to do with her or the soundness of her arguements.
I’d argue that in places like PHB……one is going to run into those cis- terms just because because we have a lot of educated folk drinking their virtual coffees and teas at our virtual coffee house.
I’m not going to argue that the terms should be common use terms in broader society, but I am stating that the terms are intended to be neutral, and that one should be familiar with these terms here at PHB — and that’s because the terms are in use.
As in Monica Roberts piece yesterday.
We shouldn’t have to debate the valitiy of the term everytime someone at The Blend uses the term, nor have a debate whether the term is neutral.
So, my goal is to stop seeing debates here at PHB over whether or not the terms are acceptable terms — that debate is over because people are already using the terms here in a neutral fashion. This is instead a get along-go along moment for those who want to try and turn back the clock to a time trans people and feminists didn’t use the term here at PHB.
I tried to come up with an arbritary set of termsSay a group call themselves transgender and have fought hard for the right to do so. Now another group decides they want to divide the world into orange and apple, and called you apple-gender and insisted you call them orange-gender. Even though apple and orange says nothing about you as transgender, being labeled apple-gender would probably set your teeth on edge.
They always say first impressions are important.It seem like a significant portion of the people objecting to these terms didn’t even know they existed until they ran into them being thrown around in a similar context to the term “breeder”. I first encountered cis-terminology when I was browsing through Queers United’s “Word of the Gay” segment. Since it was just the technical definition so I filed it under useful information and didn’t give it much thought until we had that whole mess here.
OMGWhy did you re-introduce this topic, Autumn? – just when things were calming down and getting back to normal around here – sigh…
I did a lot of reading around this topic during the great PHB brou-ha-ha of 2009 and I found something posted as a reply on Julia Serrano’s blog about this topic that I very much identified with (although the first line, while rather silly, presents a very existential note into the validity of this discussion):
A chair cannot be a chair without consciously identifying as such.
A person cannot be left-handed without consciously identifying as such.
A person cannot be a feminist without consciously identifying as such.
A person cannot be trans without consciously identifying as such.
A person cannot be cis without consciously identifying as such.
I do not wish others to define me. They can cry privilege all they want – they have not lived my life, they have only lived theirs. How does anyone know how my life compares to theirs?
I tire of others trying to fit me into a peg hole and give me a label – and I refuse to let their quest for self define who I am.
The most vocal people here who purport to know the best for all of us in this matter do not speak for me.
Popping in since I have a moment …… where my cold isn’t kicking me down and the bf is in the shower.
Petey, most of the issues you are having stems from this point you made:
which continues to pointedly ignore that I have said, over and over again, that Cis and Trans are not Identity categories.
The strawman’s are tiring, hon. To make your apple-gender argument work in the first place so that you would be demonstrating understanding of the concept, you would use braeburn apple gender and macintosh apple gender. You didn’t, going off into a realm that actually presupposes the very thing the terms circumvent.
Lastly, as Autumn pointed out elsewhere in this thread, this isn’t about defending its use anymore, either.
At this point, here at PHB, that use if set. This is about helping you to understand the terms in how they are used in actuality, not how they are used perceptually.
Roghly seven regulr and semi-regular Blenders complain about how the term appears to them to be offensive to them as persons. They stubbornly refuse to understand what is pointed out to them about the term, and then argue with it, and refuse to accfpt it.
That’s emotional investment in something other than the term. While I am quite happy to help you work through why you have that particular emotional investment in that term, PHB is not the place to do so at this time. I[m quite happy to discuss your feelings about the term, as well — but, again PHB isn’t the place now. You are all invited, once again, to email me and hold that discussion.
I’m not positive, but I’m fairly sure that Autumn would agree. I may be wrong.
Going forward, if you have a question about how it is used, or its meaning, that hasn’t been asked and answered already — giving transfolk the same expectation of respect that I give you regardless of what other expectations that each of us has respectively — that would be the place and purpose for this thread, as I understand it’s intent from Autumn in the referenced post.
Understand that the trans community as a whole has come to understand these terms, and they will be using them to educate others and to provide doctoral degrees (PhD in Transgender Studies).
While you can claim an anti-intellectual position on such as not being of value in colloquial speech, know that to trans people — regardless of how you feel about it — you are insulting us and telling us that we are less than, and taking from us our right to define our oppression.
And, since there are many, many GLB people who are also trans, yo do that to them, as well.
I’ll visit the thread again about 8 ish my time. I need to go drink some more theraflu….
“A person cannot be cis…”I’ve been avoiding commenting on these threads, primarily because I am the one who brought this up again — not Autumn.
Anyway, I personally resent the use of the term cisgender because it doesn’t reflect reality. It is a label that is being applied to a broad group based on their not being transgender.
There are chairs, left-handed people, feminists, transgender people, but there is no such thing as cisgender.
Unlike the other terms, cisgender is used to describe things that are NOT rather than things that ARE.
It is like creating terms such as:
Non-chair
Why do we need a term to describe all furniture that is not a chair? It is obviously ridiculous.
I am not cisgender. I am not transgender.
Why should I have to explain my gender identity to those who wish to apply the cisgender label to me?
There is no such thing as “normal” and therefore it is wrong to create an alternate term for the falsehood of normality.
Thanks, FritzGlad to see I’m not alone in feeling this way. Thanks, Fritz.
You are correct – there is no such thing any more as a strictly defined “normal” in any sense of the word – normal gender, normal family, normal values, normal lifestyle,normal identity - so there is no reason to invent terms to defend one’s self against that which does not exist.
Feel better soon, Dys!
Apologies, AutumnI misread your post initially – missing the fact that it was a response to Fritz’s
People are who they are.I’m getting really afraid of using any kind of terminology, because I may offend someone out of ignorance. What in hades am I allowed to say?
@dyssonance“That’s emotional investment in something other than the term. While I am quite happy to help you work through why you have that particular emotional investment in that term, PHB is not the place to do so at this time. I[m quite happy to discuss your feelings about the term, as well — but, again PHB isn’t the place now. You are all invited, once again, to email me and hold that discussion.”
WOW!
Just to clarify 2 things, you aren’t my therapist, or my professor.
Not only that…By creating the term, you actually reinforce the concept of normal.
The term “straight” is a good example. That term came from the gay community. Before it became common for people to identify themselves as straight, they called themselves normal.
Now, the term is in common usage. Many homophobes proudly identify themselves as straight.
The same thing will happen with the term cisgender when it enters the common vernacular.
“I’m not a disgusting tranny! I’m CISGENDER.”
Count on this happening.
Monica Roberts used the term “cisgender sisters” in a casual and non-academic manner. This will continue until many other progressives use the term on their blogs and in casual conversation.
It won’t do anything to eliminate privilege. It will just become another label that doesn’t reflect reality.
There is no normal. No one is 100% straight. No one is cisgender.
Instead of moving in a direction to eliminate these concepts, transgender activists are helping to strenghten them — to everyone’s detriment.
YesWhen discussing privilege, and comparing status within society a woman is able to detail how sexism impacts her in ways a man cannot.
Exactly!
That’s pretty much the entire goal of this exercise, though. That, no matter how crudely they may do so, non-transsexual/non-transgender people will acknowledge and understand that they have a gender identity too. To me, as a trans person, that would undeniably be progress from where we are now.
I mean, they’re already saying the first part. To say the second part shifts how transness is contextualized from a pathology/psychosis/malevolence to a difference in a universally shared characteristic (that may very well be situated as pathologically/psychoticly/malevolently deviant in trans people).
Until we are socially acknowledged to differ on the basis of a shared characteristic, we will not have any substantial claim to social legitimacy and intelligibility.
Context is everything.Straight is frequently used in place of normal, but it’s still a term that non-homophobic people can use to describe themselves without degrading the gay community. The term cisgendered is the same thing.
A man who is sexually attracted to women and not men says, “I’m straight.” Is this statement inherently homophobic?
A man who is biologically and psychologically male says, “I’m cisgendered.” Is this statement inherently transphobic?
With no context, both statements are completely neutral.
todays tran/cis term discussionFeels like LESS than the typical Republican apology
“sorry if I offended you” which puts the onus of being offended on you…except there was also no SORRY.
like it or lump it
Both statements are falseIf you accept the fact that there is no such thing as being straight or normal, then both statements are false.
I believe that giving those who consider thmeselves to be “normal” an alternative label, we are impeding progress.
Our goal should be to eliminae labels such as “straight” and “normal” rather than inventing new ones.
Of course I don’t believe that the term “straight” is inherently homophobic.
However, the term is used to describe human sexual orientation that is far more varied than simply gay and straight. We’ve had this discussion before.
I don’t use the term “straight” to describe people. I know that it is a meaningless term that does not reflect reality.
If straight and cis do not existthan neither do gay and trans.
Straight is synonimous with heterosexual; a person who only has significant sexual attraction to people of the opposite sex. This reflects reality because these people exist.
Same thing with cis; a person who’s gender identity matches the gender they were assigned at birth. This reflects reality because these people exist.
They won’t be acknowledging anythingNothing will have changed. By adopting the label “cisgender” those who hate you are simply saying that they are not YOU. You’ve given them a label that they can use to make their hate seem more legitimate.
That’s not progress. That’s enabling the enemy.
“Normal” is a nebulous term — even for the illiberal and dogmatic.
Now, you’ve given them something more concrete on which to base their baised views.
Nope.Disagree. I can explain what “white” means in reference to skin color and culture without launching into a sermon about “white privilege”.
Same with cisgender. If you can’t even discuss it without invoking “privilege”, then you’re going to automatically, and unecessaryily, turn off some people who would otherwise be allies.
lolunnecessarily
Yes whine away, butFor the life of me I don’t know why you would say that trans issues are not discussed here at PHB. Look at all the responses!!
Of course not!Of course it doesn’t hurt to learn new things!
Just don’t be so quick to accept other people’s ideas. The people here are, for the most part, rational and moral people. But not everyone on the interwebs has as much integrity.
There are a lot of bad ideas out there, always think for yourself and examine every belief you encounter. Think critically about it.
That’s not the point
I’ll repeat the example above using furniture.
Some pieces of furniture are chairs.
Some pieces of furniture are not chairs.
If we made up a word to describe all furniture that is not a chair, that doesn’t mean that the furniture that is not a chair doesn’t exist. But, what is the motive for creating the new term? How will it be used?
Let’s call out new term cischairs.
Cischairs can be beds, tables, sofas, credenzas — anything that isn’t a chair.
What we have is a new category of furniture that does not reflect reality. It implies that all furniture that is not a chair shares some kind of value that chairs do not.
But, you can sit on a bed. You can sit on a sofa. Many non-chair pieces of furniture have a lot of chair-like qualities. Others do not. You can’t sit on a tall bookcase.
So, why do we need the term cischairs?
It is the concept of cischairs that does not reflect reality. A unified set of furniture that is not chairs and shares enough qualities to justify doing so does not exist.
There may be people who fit the category of straight or cisgender more closely than others. But, that doesn’t mean the concept is based on reality.
The problemThe problem with this graph is that it describes (accurately no doubt) larger-scale, group dynamics.
It is less useful in one-on-one encounters between individuals. Which is what I keep saying overs and overs and overs again.
Cisgender privilege is real. On a group scale.
But on an individual scale you have no business calling anyone “privileged” unless you know they have, as individuals, had advantages that others weren’t afforded.
Disagree.Transgender already means “deviates from gender norms”.
So you’re a bit misguided. Transgender, in effect, already meant “not cisgender”, only the word cisgender was not coined yet. But the concept was there, still.
Wow!I could not disagree with this more!
If you leave cisgender undefined, it becomes a kind of default, a vague “normal” position.
Defining it with its own term brings it to the level of every other phenomenon that has been defined.
Just from a scientific/logical perspective, it makes zero sense why you think you have the right to label other people’s gender identity but not your own.
You really are someone who would benefit from studying the concept of majority privilege further. I say that as a cissexual myself.
Ugh!The LAST thing people should be is afraid of what to say. This isn’t about being “PC” and kowtowing to others without understanding why. We are trying to hammer out terms that can meaningfully describe phenomena in the real world.
Think for yourself, give yourself credit, and take a stand. I think these terms can and do make sense in the right context. What do you think? That’s up to you! Study them, think about it, be critical. Don’t be afraid.
What?What does that mean?
Seeing as how emotionally charged, and important, this discussion is, I would advise against being cryptic. We can have a very meaningful and productive discussion if everyone is willing.
So…Are you against the term “straight”?
Actually…Transgender refers specifically to a person who feels his or her assigned or outward gender does not match the internal gender.
This is only one of many gender identity-related conditions. There are others. And gender idenity exists on a continum, much like sexual orientation.
I’ll just state this one last time. THERE IS NO NORMAL.
Using a single term to describe the almost countless gender variants is pointless. It does not reflect reality and is ultimately divisive.
By dividing gender indentity into two categories, transgender activists are reinforcing the misguided belief that this is an us vs. them issue.
It also ignores the fact that there are people like me who are neither cisgender nor transgender.
I refuse to be forced into either category. There are others like me who feel the same way.
This is like forcing a biracial child to decide whether or not he is black or white. For many people, this is not a fair choice. It is one that I refuse to be a part of.
It is the wrong context that concerns meI’ve seen this term used as a weapon. I’ve seen it used as propaganda.
It has proven to be divisive — as evidenced by the debate surrounding it.
It is admirable that you are trying to understand yourself. But, why does that mean you have to right to label me? Leave me alone. I don’t want your new word slapped on me. I don’t want you to be concerned with what’s going on in my pants and in my head.
I will continue to tell anyone who calls me cisgender to shove it — polite terms and otherwise as I see fit.
I’m with EshtoDon’t worry, join the discussion. If you worry too much about offending, you will never be able to join. If you say something that’s offensive, someone will correct you. No one is going to cast you out if you make a mistake. People will bring you up to speed. This thread is about achieving mutual understanding.
Again…Do we need a term to define furniture that is not a chair?
Do we need a term to define those who are not multiracial?
Do we need a term to define those who do not have red hair?
This is exactly what the term cisgender does.
It takes a very diverse group — everyone who is not transgender — and slaps an artificial label on them.
There are people with red hair. They are often the target of discrimination. People call them names. They get teased in school. Having red hair is the result of a genetic variation of the “norm” right?
So, what if a group of redheads got together and made up a word to describe all non-redheaded folks?
Drabheads
That’s it. Everyone who is not a redhead is a drabhead. Wow! That’s empowering. It is a word redheads can use when they talk about all of those people with blond, brown and black hair. You know, those privileged people who don’t get teased for having red hair.
Will this term do anything to stop bullies from beating up the “ginger” kid on the playground. No.
That analogy proves MY point.
A chair is an object with it’s own definition.
The other objects you listed which are not chairs also have their own definitions.
Cisgender also has it’s own definition; a person who’s gender identity matches the gender he/she was assigned at birth.
Just like trangender means a person who’s gender identity differs from the gender he/she was assigned at birth.
I think I was quite forthcominig how I feltPHB will use cis terms, whether anyone finds the use offensive.
Oh, and if you do find them offensive, the onus is on YOU. YOU are some how lacking, but they will be glad to give you therapy so YOU can work through your feelings about it.
I rarely use itIt often forces us to assume too much.
No it doesn’t prove your pointThere are people who don’t fit into either category.
Just as a sofa is somewhat like a chair, there are bigendered people who share charateristics with transgender people but are not transgender.
There are other subsets of transgender that may conform more closely to what some may view as being “cisgender”.
There are people who are more transgender than others. They may be only slightly uncomfortable with their birth gender. There may be lots of those folks in this world.
So, my analogy is correct. That’s why I chose furniture. There is a lot of crossover in functionality — just as there is a lot of variation of gender identity in the real world.
I think it is better to create a world in which we don’t have to deal with these labels. If that were the case, people could be who they are and express their unique gender identity without fear of being labeled and discriminated against.
Can people fall in between Cis & Trans?What I mean to ask, is can someone be born with gender identity & a body that don’t line up, but in a non-binary way?
I know some bisexuals say I’m attracted to men & women about 50/50%, where as some lean a little more on direction than the other say 60/40, but they would be comfortable dating on either side of the spectrum.
Are there people who would feel equally comfortable in either body type with a 50/50 split, or people who would have a preference for one body type versus another like a 60/40 split, but still be somewhat comfortable in either? Or is it basically binary where you either feel at home in the body you were born in or not? If it is non-binary, does that play a role in when someone transitions, or whether or not the opt to go the surgical route, or just to start living as their true gender?
I didn’t say I was eitherSo that’s rather interesting that you would make that inference.
Now, now…Let’s shake and be friends.
Yes.Indeed, Trans, Cis, and Inter are but three of several different possibilities.
Just wanted to point out that this quote is from a poster who was saying why it was so important that people understand that cis is not about identity.
That is, the poster was pointing out that when people think cis is about identity rather than description, they will tend to make these arguments, and establish them as efforts to deny their own privilege.
cis is not a term of identity. IT does not matter how you identify.
IT is a descriptor — like tall, man, woman, funny, sad, angry.
Applying it in a different way is not using the term correctly.
See aboveAnd thank you for doing exactly what this thread is not about.
meaningful?Hardly…..what you have is a minority group telling everyone else what terms are applied to that majority. Having already done this to those born transsexual by force, censorship and intimidation they seem amazed that when they do it to a majority, the majority objects, strongly……..just as those they labeled “transgender” against our will objected but lacked the ability to be heard.
Cis is supposed to be about privilege and it is in a weird way, a minority group that seems to think they have the reverse (sort of Jewish Mother guilt trip sort of thing) privilege to demand their way.
There is no difference other than those pushing “cis” nonsense lack the means to enforce it and thus will lose in the end.
This cis “othering” was a spectacularly bad idea from the get go.
YesI am one of those people. My gender is almost irrelevant to me. I dress in man drag every day. It actually feels like I’m putting on a costume. But, a dress feels the same way. It all seems artifical and in no way connected to my gender identity. I don’t have a strong masculine identity and I don’t have a strong feminine identity.
It is called being bigender. There’s no hard figures on how many people are like this because it rarely requires treatment of any kind.
But, can you see why this cisgender stuff has me kind of bent out of shape?
do you use gay?
Normal is relative and relationalIt is to be conforming, ordinary, commonplace, every day.
Would the correct terms beIntersexual & Intergender then for those in between?
I’ve always thought of sexual orientation as a spectrum.
From Straight Bi Gay with many different Bi leanings filling in all kinds of possibilities in the middle.
Understanding it as Cis Inter Trans as a spectrum would certainly fit into the model of the way I’m used to thinking about members of the LGBT community falling somewhere in a spectrum (although just being used to a model doesn’t make it right).
Is this understanding the terminology correctly?
Don’t be rude
What is offensiveabout cis* ? seriously what does it for you? Since YOU have a problem with a word (cis) that has a built-in relationship with another (trans) applied to people (Unlike “gay” and “straight” which are words given NEW meanings to be applied to people) what is your suggestion to call people who have a gender identity that matches their assigned sex?
This was asked repeatedly over the summer and NONE of the people complaining about “cis” even attempted it.
And your arguments sound rather like heteros who get bent over being called “homophobes”.
I didn’t make an issue about MonicaR’s use of cis termsI didn’t find that article was being lecturing or particularly heavy handed with cis terms.
After today’s discussion, I feel less likely to venture into trans-subject threads. As I stated early this morning, if you are going to make discussion of these terms feel like a minefield….don’t expect folks to stroll through them, I won’t.
the simple answerdon’t know
don’t care
“Applying it in a different way is not using the term correctly”And that’s my whole point. It won’t be used correctly.
The article that prompted me to write about this used the term in a casual, non-academic manner.
This is happening with greater frequency and it will likely spread to the common vernacular.
No. It is used as a exclusionary desciptor. It can be compared to not-tall, not-male, not-female.
There is a significant semantic difference.
It is like non-white. Non-German. Un-American.
It lumps a large and diverse group together as if they had only one thing in common. This is why the term is often used as a weapon or a propaganda tool. It may not be designed for that purpose, but it lends itself to it very well.
enlightening
Weapon/Propaganda?
Can you give me a lead to where I can observe cis being employed as propaganda/weapon? Links or quotes would would be awesome, but just a general description of where and how this happens would suffice.
transformative
Should prove interestingsince it is the sum of usage of multiple terms which creates that sense — and then only for those for whom privilege is an issue.
The reason it proves my pointis that just as each type of furniture has it’s own name and a definition for that name in spite of cross-functionality, each term for gender identity has it’s own description in spite of any overlap. I’ve already given those descriptions twice so I’m not going to repeat myself again. Using transgender or cisgender to describe a person who does not fit either definition is an improper use of those terms. Just as using gay or straight to describe someone who’s bisexual or asexual is an improper use of the terms.
All of those terms I listed have one definition. Being used to describe a person who does not fit the definition is an improper use of the term. Just like calling a sofa a chair is an improper use of the term even though there is a functional overlap.
I wasn’t.Rude, right now, would be quite different.
Too personal.rioTgirl, I’m going to repeat what I said right at the top of this discussion:
Please frame how you’re disussing this in terms of the ideas, and not in terms of personal commentary about the person or persons who have that idea.
Seems pretty simple to meIf we need a label for trans, we need a label for cis.
If in some mythical future, gender is as casually individual as clothing choice, we might find both of the labels fall into disuse.
Until then, it’s bad if one side gets to be “trans” and the other gets to be “normal”.
straight is the opposite of BENT, an earlier slur for queers
“non” turns it into a label and a filterThere are these people labelled smokers. And then there are these people who don’t have a label, who can be identified by taking a population and filtering out the smokers. And you have to do those mental gymnastics every time. Filtering is an expensive operation because the unconscious mind doesn’t do it well, especially as a prefix to other qualifiers. “non-smoker privilege” is a mouthful and is work to wrap your brain around. People who don’t want to work to think will notice that effort and consider the idea PC and unnatural.
Word of the Gay: “Bent”
“Bent” – A term used within the U.K. as a slang for homosexuals. It also means predisposition, abnormal or unorthodox behavior. Of late the term has been reclaimed and many groups and publications proudly use the term “Bent” as a source of gay pride.
http://queersunited.blogspot.c…
Gay used to mean happy.Queer used to mean strange. Words change as language evolves. Now neither word retains its old meaning.
I have learned……yet another new thing.
Thanks Petey!
Spectacularly saidThanks for saying so eloquently what many of us have tried to formulate into a response.
waitwait, wut? how does acknowledging that not all women are cis, which is all that marking cis does, deny your womanhood or third gender you. I really d not understand
If we relly want to talk abpout a word that needs to goIt’s that BS ‘politically correct’ term the conservafools concocted.
Politically correct is a code word for oppressionThat is, since it is used to dismiss those who speak up for themselves, the use of PC is a silencing and dismissing tactic.
IT is much, much easier to use the code phrase politically correct to excuse yourself from not speaking to the specific subject you are being challenged on than it is to say you are incompetent and ignorant in the subject.
Decades ago (the 1970′s), politically correct meant strictly the changing of terms to be less insulting.
Apparently, those who use PC as a dismissive concept really want to retain insulting terminology.
hmmAgain, I didn’t say it was offensive.
The trans-community may use the termbut I seriously doubt that it will be coming into common use any time soon by the Lesbian community. All too frequently, when Lesbian concerns are raised about certain issues, “cis priviledge” is tossed onto the table as a weapon to imply some inherent bigotry, at least to the thinking of quite a few Lesbians. It is used to end the dialogue, daemonise the positions of the Lesbians involved and effectively ends the chance of reconciling viewpoints.
I am not claiming this view as my own, mind you. But in my experience, this is an accurate reflection of the feelings of the Lesbians of my age group.
I’m going to flounce.At this point, anythng I say is going to simply add to the dischord that this thread has highlighted.
Privilege — regardless of the kind — is like racism, or sexism. It’s something that the majority of people will deny having unto their grave, its somethng that is so deeply embedded into them that they can no longer see it.
Privilege is, as I noted, never about who has it worse. Privilege is really not even about active discriminiation. It is not bigotry, it is not prejudice. It is not about who is offended by what.
It’s about what members of a group that can be described as normative in a given situation can expect on the basis of what is normative for the social milieu they are part of.
To be able to look at privilege, and discrimination, and racism, and sexism, you have to understand what the descriptions are for that group that does so.
In the case of Trans lives, that is the purpose of the Cis prefix. To allow the discussion to begin.
As I understand it, that’s the way it will be used here at PHB, and for that I thank Pam and the Barista’s for their effort and willingness.
There are, in this thread, some people who are taking what is an occasion to explore the idea of how the concept works and instead making it all about defending the terms use, when the term is simply going to be used, and since I’m very, very passionate about trans issues, I’m responsible for allowing them to do so, as I was willing to engage in that argument.
I will not argue the point any more.
Analysis of responses from a sociological and psychological perspective shows me that I was arguing with opponents, not allies.
The arguments used were, in my personal opinion, inconscionable. Had I used such arguments against cisGLB folks, I would have been kicked into the opponent camp in a heart beat.
That is not an indictment of the moderators, it is an indictment of certain responses. The moderators, by and large, are not here to force you to conform to their views.
I agree, fully, with those who point out that Cis and Trans will not be entering the mainstream usage within singular communites — it will only come to play in mixed communites, where and when there is honest and open effort made at coming to an understanding.
At this point, its become very apparent that for some people, open and honest effort simply is not possible when it comes to the trans community. That they are nominally allies is not a surprise, all things considered, but it is revelatory.
This explains why even before the last blow up here, trans issues were all but ignored unless and until someone brought up the structures of privilege, bigotry, or the subject of the story triggered some aspect of intersection.
The ability to ignore that? That’s an expectation — you can, in general, be expected to not have any interest in Trans issues if you are not Trans.
And that expectation is privilege.
To defend the presence of such concepts as “uncomfortable”, “offensive”, “labeling me”, and more is all merely establishing that there is, indeed, privilege in operation there on the part of those defending.
That probably bothers those who have not commented as well as those who have.
Wilfull ignorance is a particuar issue I cannot overcome be means of logic or sheer volume (be it sonic or post count), and to be frank, I encounter enough of it among those opponents who are not nominally allies already — I do not need to hear it from a bunch of people who have raised in me a desire to speak a slur that has been applied to me in error. ANd I should point out that the reason it came to me is because of my privilege.
And so, rather than use that phrase, I’m going to flounce on out of this thread.
I’m sure they will all be much happier.
See ya in the next thread
Perhaps a workable solution to the terminology problem you describe(because I MORE than understand the above!) would be a static link/s to information and terminology in its own designated space on the front page, so those who wish to learn more and join the conversations can at least have a framework of knowledge to build upon.
I read all of these threads myself but keep my comments extremely “safe” or deliberately shallow/ light-hearted for two-fold reasons:
And I seriously doubt I am alone in this…
uh…yeah ya did“And cissexual is exactly as insulting and dangerous as transsexual.”
insulting and dangerous = offensive
-Not real big on contextual comprehension, are ya, Petey?
but at least now we know that you see transsexual as insulting and dangerous.
Not real big on civility, are ya DYS?You twist your own quote to put words in MY mouth.
You insult my comprehension.
You dismiss anyone who finds your overbearing nasty caustic remarks as “nominal allies”, instead of OWNING your confrontational actions made someone WILLING to explore the concept of cis…(which frankly doesn’t have a G*D DAMN bit of significance in my life), and makes them apathetic to trans issues.
You’ll make it harder for other transgender people, to be listened to, so congratulations.
Discord is what you spread BEST.
yes pleasehey, you aren’t alone in this.
HmmPeteyPornpig
That’s pretty much how what you said reads, at least to me. If “cis is as offensive and dangerous as trans” comes out as “cis is offensive and dangerous” then trans must then be offensive and dangerous.
“Straight is as immoral as gay” (me making the point that there is no inherent morality associated with either)
“No way! I’m not immoral” (my grandma defending her moral superiority as a heterosexual woman)
Actually, no, I don’t see why you are bent out of shapeIf you really want to address your issue, then it seems to me that the way to do so is exactly what you did: to introduce a new term: bigender, or something that conveys the idea that gender identity is not binary. You do not accomplish your goal by eliminating terms that accurately describe the vast majority of individuals in a population.
Conservation biologists run into this problem all the time when trying to describe the differences between species. If the species are distinct – that is, if there is little overlap between the distributions of features that characterize the species, then it is a simple matter to classify species, since each individual can easily be placed into two or more categories of description. But the situation gets much more complex when the distributions of the species share a significant amount of overlap – that is, some shared characteristics. In those cases, it is not easy to place an individual in just one category, and this difficulty is widely recognized by taxonomists. The fact that humans – like every other animal – have features that are best described by distributions and not categories, however, is not recognized by the major religions.
And due (in my opinion) to the major religions, the idea of oppositional sexuality: that there are men and women, and nothing in between, has been institutionalized, and this has been carried to extremes by the state, which feels justified in assigning a gender marker to every individual on the planet. By their reasoning, there are males and females and nothing else. Just ask Homeland Security. Because they’re going to be expecting to see a M or a F on your passport.
So while you are talking about some personal distaste for a word that does not incorporate the needed complexity to include you, the reality is that we are forced by the state to live as one of these two. And in this system, those who were “born” as one gender and then “transition” to the other gender get a firsthand look at the consequences of this belief system. I’m not a big fan of oppositional sexuality, and I do agree that it would be more accurate to model human sexuality as a distribution rather than as two distinct categories, but can you see that by eliminating the cis prefix, you are helping to keep the privileges assumed by cis people invisible? You don’t advocate for eliminating the prefix trans, yet this term implicitly defines the other (cis). It is the implicit nature of the cis definition that is the problem. It keeps the privileges that cis people enjoy invisible. For example, the right to use the appropriate bathroom or the right to freely enter men-only or women-only spaces. You advocate for breaking the gender binary, but I would point out that not all trans people have a problem with the gender binary. A good number of trans people clearly identify as male or female and are not conflicted by their identification within the context of this binary.
On the other hand, I have never seen a term gain usage so quickly as the cis term has among transpeople. I would venture a guess that in a few years it will be obligatory to understand these terms if one is going to intelligently discuss trans issues.
Except“…use the language in which your audience is already fluent…”
This does not currently exist in a way that does not position trans people as “other” or on an equal standing. This is exactly what “cis” as a prefix attempts to do.
Nice.I like that. That was rather humorous.
I didn’t need to twist them. They stand on their own, and in order to see the statement as negative, you have to see the concepts as negative.
Being a transsexual, its fairly obvious that the meaning of the sentence for me is that neither term is dangerous or offensive. Logically, if they are equally so, then they are equally whatever point the reader decides to place onto them.
I am to blame for entrapment for others who leaped to a conclusion that they are negative? Like the drunk who says “uh, 1″ when asked on a scale of one to ten how drunk are you, it is my fault for asking the question, I suppose.
Overbearing? To use that word one has to allow for my being intimidating to them.
So why am I intimidating to others by simply pointing something out?
nasty and caustic? Pray tell, how was I nasty and caustic?
Lacking in civility? As I pointed out when Fritz said I was rude, no, I was not uncivil.
Nor have I been, this whole time. I am passionate, but I am tempering it mightily with careful choice of words and responses.
And now I am the one who is confrontational? Is there a problem with my being assertive of the ability to define my existence, while there is not such for others?
And I’m fairly certain that I did own my actions.
But, as usual, it is, in the end, all my fault. Of course.
Well then, let it be my fault.
I will take that blame.
Better that I do so willingly and with the added malevolent spirit you so carefully ascribe to me than I be meek and silent and a good little girl.
If my refusing to allow others to define my place, and then refusing to allow them to push me into it is my fault, then by all that I hold sacred, you can bet your sweet ass I will indeed take the blame for it.
And gladly, and with much pomp and circumstance and celebration.
And a cold hearted grin the whole while, just to warm your sense of just and proper place lest one little girl ruin your entire worldview.
Because I’d rather be a negative than an undeveloped picture.
So yes, please, make it all about me. I will take it. I will embrace it. I will be the foe so desperately needed as an excuse by others.
For, in the end, better me than all.
Using your analogyCis and trans would be more like dividing furniture into “seats” and “tables” within each broad group you would have various pieces that more or less fit within one or the others. Neither term denies the existence of sofas, davenports, beds, credenzas, sideboards, hutches. However, they do serve handy reference in some situations when only some types of furniture classification is needed/desired.
This also validates things like shelves and ottomans which don’t easily fit either or easily fit neither.
very sorryI am sorry if I came across as singling a particular person out. That was not my intention in any way.
Gay men had Roy CohnLesbians have Camille Paglia
and Dyssonance joins these esteemed colleagues.
Not everyone in the community is helpful, quite the contrary.
Playing the victimHoney, it’s been done before….and BETTER
Only becauseyou want to me to be such.
Go on, Petey.
Tell the world how terrible I am.
Tell them how much a monster you seem to think I am.
Please note……no trapdoor. As long as you frame your opinions in a way that doesn’t violate our TOS, Cathryn, you can give your opinions freely — even if those opinions are deemed by others to be controversial or unpopular.
I may not agree with your opinions regarding how you’re feeling labeled as transgender by people those of us who do identify transgender (I certainly want to fully respect your prerogative to self-identify as you want to self-identify), but the trapdoor won’t drop for disagreeing with the baristas about labeling.
And btw, I don’t recall ever identifying you as transgender in the past, but if I have — I’m sorry. Again, I want to fully respect your prerogative to self-identify as you want to self-identify. At this point in my life, I definitely feel it’s not my business to tell other people how to identify themselves.
to your faceTell you straight
no intenrention
to your face
no deception.
You’re the biggest fake
that much is true
Had all I can take
now I’m leaving you.
~Eurythmics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…
A thought exerciseA thought that just struck me wrt folks not seeing a problem with “non-____” nomenclature, and one that I want to toss out there for others’ reaction even though I haven’t quite thought through my own feelings about it yet:
What if, just as a thought exercise, mind you, we were to entirely drop ‘trans’ as a label, and replace it with ‘non-cis’? E.g. we would have cissexual people and noncissexual people; cis men and con-cis men; cis women and non-cis women; never using the ‘trans’ stem. (Even better, pretend that this had been the terminology in general use for the past decade already.) Would that affect a) how folks whose gender identities conform to social expectations thereof react to the prefix ‘cis’? And b) how folks whose gender identities conform to social expectations thereof perceive the significance/insignificance/neutrality of the ‘non-’ construction? (Though, like with “non-smoker”, it’s not a perfect parallel to replacing ‘cis’ with ‘non-trans’, because regardless of nomenclature, being cisgender is still the expected and not-stigmatized state.)
Re: sexual orientationIf you take the example of sexual orientation as your metaphor, then your own argument is self-contradictory. I do not see many gay and lesbian folks disputing the term straight. And as for folks who are neither gay/lesbian nor straight, another word was coined: bisexual, to reflect reality a little closer. Gays and lesbians did not argue for the elimination of the word straight and then make the claim that there is no such thing as straight. I didn’t hear arguments from the straight community that the term straight doesn’t adequately express their orientation.
Apart from legal marriage, sexual orientation is not mediated by the state. You need not ask for the government to approve of your orientation in order to express your sexuality. Your sexual orientation is not indicated on your passport and drivers’ license. Therefore there was no pushback on the introduction of the term bi, because it didn’t force the wider culture to acknowledge or change anything.
Gender identity, on the other hand, is a public affair, and it IS mediated by the state. While you may or may not be cisgender, you are cissexual, and because you have not had to ask the state for the “right” to be considered a member of the “opposite” sex, I don’t think you are really in a position to be attacking those who do have to request this permission and then go through all the steps (including surgery) before the state will formally recognize gender.
For my part, I’m happy to accommodate your self-description of your gender identity, but still, from a practical standpoint, you are defined by the government as male or female, and certain rights are accorded you as a result – whether you acknowledge them or not. It’s fine to have philosophical discussions, but the main focus of the cis term (in my opinion) is to make visible all those privileges that non-trans people enjoy, but which they refuse to acknowledge as such. For example, how many bathroom stories have been posted at PHB, where self-described cis folk feel qualified and justified in policing who gets to use the bathroom. In these cases, it is the non-trans population that assumes the right to define access for trans people. The same thing has been happening in the women’s community for many years, for example, the trans-exclusion policy of the Michigan womyn’s music fest. This is not a philosophical or existential problem, it is a real, practical problem that many trans people face at some point in their lives.
false“Apart from legal marriage, sexual orientation is not mediated by the state. You need not ask for the government to approve of your orientation in order to express your sexuality. Your sexual orientation is not indicated on your passport and drivers’ license. ”
Adoption, In Vitro Fertilization, Parental Rights, Hospital Visitation, Military Service without lying,
and about 1000 other rights we are denied.
probablyBut I think much of the trans community – at least many mtfs, are of the opinion that the lesbian community has exercised cisgender privilege more than almost any other single group, excepting the churches. The trans-exclusionary policies of the Michigan Women’s Music Fest, the ejection of various transwomen from feminist collectives, and the outrageous transphobic feminist literature, beginning with Janice Raymond and continued by others, has made clear the consensus of the lesbian community, particularly the older members. Of course there are more enlightened members, but I think the views of Raymond are still widely held among the lesbian community.
Given this fact, I don’t think that any trans woman (in particular) is going to hold our breath waiting for the lesbian community to come around. If the lesbian community wishes to remain ignorant about trans issues, they certainly can do so, but there will be no rapprochement without acknowledgement of their privilege. Like I said, I’m not holding my breath. Fortunately, straight women (in my experience) are wonderful trans allies, and I am greatly encouraged for the future. I have personally been embraced by the women in my local community, and so to some extent, I think that the lesbian community may soon find itself in a position where their behavior is interpreted by straight women as transphobic and they will be called out on it.
How quaint.and expected.
Let me clarifyWhat I meant was that your identification documents do not indicate your sexual orientation, and there is no enforced binary. I myself have never had to disclose my sexual orientation, but I see your point about the loss of many rights because of orientation. Of course, I think that is a travesty and wrong.
But ask yourself, when it comes to the real expression of your sexual orientation, i.e. having sex with the partner of your choice, how does the government mediate that? Do you have to ask permission to have sex? No. But to live as a member of the opposite sex, trans people do have to ask permission. And it is very frequently denied. By people who are not trans.
Whoa
That’s kind of strong, considering that most of society is awfully transphobic, and much more proud of it.
Consider all of the courts that refused to accept (post-op, legally gender-marker-changed) trans women’s marriages, overruling their corrected legal gender. Consider the states where you can’t correct your legal gender, period. The trials that end with trans panic defense verdicts, approved by juries of 12 random peers.
Consider the police that will overlook, and even engage in themselves, violence against trans women of color, and the general social apathy directed toward the victims. You can bet that the average person identifies more with the perpetrator than the victim.
Consider the medical industry that pathologizes us, mandates therapy and the permission of gatekeepers as preconditions for medical treatment, and will drop coverage of trans services for good publicity (and futhermore that that is received as good publicity).
Consider that not all lesbians are transphobic, perhaps more aren’t than are, and that some trans women are lesbians.
Please incorporate this context.
how deserved http://www.blogactive.com/imag…
How transphobic.
I agreeTo some extent I agree that there are forces much more powerful than the lesbian community arrayed against transpeople. But I would be hard-pressed to think of any other group that has as much in common as the trans and lesbian communities, and that could do each other as much good were that common ground recognized. Most trans women I know are fierce advocates of women’s rights, and many do advocacy work along those lines regardless of what any lesbians may say about our legitimacy as women or lesbians.
It seems to me a tragedy that so many people bought Raymond’s arguments, and that lesbians have worked so hard to exclude transwomen from women-only spaces. BTW, I am lesbian as well as trans, and I have a long list of personal experiences that informs my perspective. I absolutely recognize that not all lesbians are transphobic, far from it. Some of my best friends are lesbians. And clearly it is a generational matter, with the older members having the most transphobia. But I do not think that alters the basic point I made.
Until six years ago we did.It took until 2003 for the last sodomy laws to be struck down. Until then the government did mediate our ability to have sex with the partner of our choice. Even with those laws gone, there are anecdotal reports of them still being enforced in places. On top of that, authorities in some places still twist laws to prevent us from being able to show any sort of affection to the partner of our choice in public as we were reminded of with the recent incident in Salt Lake City.
it’s all about YOU
Gay and lesbian is the only topic in the awardat worst it’s not inclusive
And You made it that way.
…but enough of me talking about me, now you can talk about me“Well then, let it be my fault.
I will take that blame.
Better that I do so willingly and with the added malevolent spirit you so carefully ascribe to me than I be meek and silent and a good little girl.
If my refusing to allow others to define my place, and then refusing to allow them to push me into it is my fault, then by all that I hold sacred, you can bet your sweet ass I will indeed take the blame for it.
And gladly, and with much pomp and circumstance and celebration.
And a cold hearted grin the whole while, just to warm your sense of just and proper place lest one little girl ruin your entire worldview.
Because I’d rather be a negative than an undeveloped picture.
So yes, please, make it all about me. I will take it. I will embrace it. I will be the foe so desperately needed as an excuse by others.
For, in the end, better me than all.”
All because you decided to make it all about me.You are the one who said I was an embarrassment, making comparisons to Roy Cohn (including a transphobic image). You are the one who said I did all manner of things.
All I was saying is go ahead, Petey. Keep doing what you’ve been doing. Make it all about me instead of the arguments or the points and or the discussion.
You want to make me the baddy, the heavy, the villan of the piece, fine, I’ll be the villan. It seems to be what you want. For me to surrender to your will.
You are doing it. Even now, holding something I’m quite aware of what I said against me. Making me a villan with the very piece telling you that you are quite welcome to do so.
And I’m just taking it.
cisfail
YOU attacked meYOU insulted my comprehension, you twisted your words in your quote to put them in MY mouth.
And no one called you on YOUR SH*T and personal attack.
Fine I’m a big boy and can take on my own fights.
and if you want to go in the chat room this will get WAY uglier and WAY less PC.
Uh, petey and dyssonancetake 3 deep breaths and…chill.
Now if I didn’t like either one of you, I would simply sit back and let the drama unfold.
Ciswide spread UsageHaving tried following these debates about cis- I am still at a loss for why? The debates remind me more of a sophomore psych class meeting after class at a beerhouse to discuss the latest chapter of a psych text book.
I have had cis- explained to me as all genders; no genders; and asexual. The only place I have heard cis- used is at a couple of colleges GLBT discussion groups (see sophomore psych class above).
As for general use, I do not see it for many reasons, the first is that it is obviously not in general use (rather roundabout definition) within communities any communities. Maybe over time it will be used, similar to “queer” making a reappearance but as coopted by the gay community this time, in some use by young gays.
Another reason is the use of cis-. Academically it is used occassionaly, somewhat like “contentious”, a nice word not used frequently because it is hard to write and most people do not know what it means.
Another reason is the misconception that it is the same as sinister, or left-hand (what is left after cutting off the right hand of some offender of rules).
Trying to create definitions within a language is not easy. It would be better if some media group used it in a major story – like “flying saucers” or “cold war”.
The word or definition, cis-, is difficult to place and understand. A simple use is not available, without explaining why one is using the word in the first place.
But, this does continue showing what I tell people when they ask what they should call me; I like tosimplify the confusion – Just call me Pam.
Funny thing is…I am chilled, lol.
In chat now…
well, that was interesting.Several attempted insults later, he decided I was unamusing.
ReallyYou don’t see your image as Transphobic? I suppose if Ronny and Roy were holding gerbils it wouldn’t be Homophobic?
Also, Dyss didn’t put anything in your mouth that you didn’t already have there.
I’d like to bejust Laura, but I’m not. Because Trans* is marked while cis remains unmarked because it’s… the linguistic opposite of “trans”… or it’s just to unknowable… or academic (not like Heterosexual – perfectly obvious word that rolls off the tongue)… or just cuz (because having non-trans people claim their gender is to much to ask).
privilege:how SOCIETY perceives one.
if one is perceived to be straight,white,male,etc,
society treats one AS the majority “class”
if one is perceived to be gay,tg,black,
society treats one AS that perceived class.
like when $1,000,000 dollar a year black athletes can’t get a CAB to stop for them in NYC, but it will stop for a white transient.(ie:”the poor”)
you HAVE privilege if you are PERCEIVED by the MAJORITY
in power to be “them”
you actually could be NOT them!
but if THEY don’t “see” that(ie “passing”)
you get “a pass”
if SOCIETY percieves one as “normal” (like them)
‘CIS’(for one example)
they give you the front of the bus.
this is basic civil rights.
thus the ever-popular (HRC, for example) “straight acting” concept:(assimilation)only works tho for “binaries”!
gay——-bi/or pansexual——straight
__________________________________________________________
cis————bigendered———transgendered
why not?who is left out?
again,
if society PRESUMES you are male,
but you are bigendered:
privilege.
if society PRESUMED me “white” but i wasen’t:
privilege.
etc.
it’s about SOCIETY/POWER,
NOT truth.
society=perception
if they don’t KNOW you are gay,
they TREAT you like “them”.
ps:
and,if you (or anyone) are NOT cis, this is not about “you”, ANYWAY…….it’s about defining POWER.
and if you can’t define power,
you’re screwed.
perception vs reality:dadt doma enda
are OUTSIDE of “perception-land”…..
this discussion does not negate glb rights!
it’s more of the same
funny I thought it was MY mouth?But of course you would KNOW BETTER.
Then What did you mean?
What about the transphobic image?
I have ZERO interest in playing 20 questionsand even less interest in dealing with a transgender person, for the foreseeable future.
Not that many have bought into Raymondand you make her a far more powerful and pervasive bogeyman than she is.
Most feminist Lesbians that I know never heard of her til they read trans-people’s posts. She is not a major theorist.
Michigan is the exception, rather than the rule, hence the attention that it gets. I can not think of another reason for its infamy, give the unattractive combination of mud and mosquitos, and in Michigan.
I will grant, though, that the possession of anatomically male genitalia tends to be a dividing line for spaces such as shower rooms and locker rooms for many older Lesbians.
I guess the assment standsSince you can’t be bothered to say why cis is problematic for you (“don’t know”) can’t be bothered to to find a mote palatable term (“don’t care”).
You won’t explain how “cis is as offensive and dangerous as trans” comes out as “cis is offensive and dangerous” doesn’t point that trans must then be offensive and dangerous.
You won’t explain how the linked image isn’t transphobic.
Then play “I’m taking my ball and going home” all behaviors that if a heterosexual was doing here would easily and correctly get them labeled as a ‘phobe.
I’m left with limited resources to make any conclusions.
THIS is what you asked and I answered“what is your suggestion to call people who have a gender identity that matches their assigned sex? ”
don’t know
don’t care
I’m not going anywhere, neither are my balls…plural
you seem unwilling to take a hint, let me make it perfectly clear to someone with limited resources
G, L, B….period
whatever
I dunno, it seems a bit heated. only slight objection I’d have is cis- sounds like cissy (usa spelling is prob. sissy), a derogatory term for an effeminate male.
but then, I take effeminate as a compliment, so , I think it’s a total blast, but I can think of many ppl who, umm, might get a bit pissed with it. but that’s cool too, as it’s def. not pc, if the goal of pc is to defuse offence out of a part of language.
so rock on cis!
Therein lies a problemYou seem to only read or address specific things. My question in full was:
What is offensive about cis* ?
What is your suggestion to call people who have a gender identity that matches their assigned sex?
Two-part question that you gave two answers for:
don’t know
don’t care
Perhaps with your limited resources, you can only process one question at a time.
I have no vested interest in the status of you balls. Don’t presume that I would
Your GLB movement can then stop using Trans women to inflate your hate crimes stats and stop using Trans people as examples of historical homos. Talk about limiting resources… I mean limited resources.
Y’know, when I think about it . . . . . . transgender, for me, really isn’t an identity either; it (or transsexual, which is either something different or the subgroup I might get classified as being a “member”) merely refers to the fact that I was born with a brain that developed in one of the “sexed” directions, while my genitals developed along wollfian ducts instead of the mullerian ducts that would have made me “cis.”
Conversely, had my brain developed to match the wolffian genital expectation, I’d also have been “cis” but just in accordance with the other expectation.
Still, the trans- (-sexual or -gender) terms have the utility of describing people whose brains develop differently from that expected by the way their bodies developed (transxexual being where the brain development more closely matches the other binary sex expectations, while transgender either covers everything unexpected except the “opposite” or it includes “opposite” as a subset, depending on the definitional mode being used).
Cis-gender or Cis-sexual) is more of a retronym; it fills in the answer to the question “What do you call people who are not trans-gender or trans-sexual). One reason it’s almost never an identity, except for those whose consciousness has been raised about what it means to be trans-sexual or trans-gender), is that most “cis” people don’t have to ever bother to think twice about the harmony between their brain/mind and body, while “trans” people almost always come to the realization that they are different from most other people at an early age, and either figure out a coping strategy or transition. (The primary difference between early transitioners and late transitioners has to do with the relative success of those who try a coping strategy, even if it means a lot of mental strain.
Maybe the “are” or other forms of the verb “to be” are also simple placeholders for “having a history that is” or something like that.
Anywaym it’ after midnight here and I am rambling.
WTF?
I have an example of an individual who is transgender and cissexualMy friend A. (I have mentioned her before) is a person-born-female who identifies as a woman, but also identifies as transgender. She is not comfortable wearing any clothing that is “female” styled, and binds her breasts or wears loosely-fitting clothes (or both). If she was not close to my age, and was a lot younger she might identify as a boi.
She is an example of someone who fits as both transgender and cissexual – transgender because she has a gender identity that doesn’t exactly fit the expectations (it’s not the clothing, though the comfort factor is there), and cissexual because she clearly identifies as a woman.
I can’t ask, or answer the question – but I have known some late-transitioning MBT who spend many years in the lesbian community and are partnered, only starting transition when the relationship sours. I don’t know if A. is in this demographic or will ever transition – but if she does, I will as happy for him as I am for her as she currently identifies.
Well, yes, sort of except as has been already pointed outif transgendered is the form for the trans side, then cisgendered would be the form on the cis side.
Trans is non-cis, and cis is non-trans.
Elsewhere in this thread, I’ve given an example of an individual who would fit in as transgender but cissexual.
But for the more black-and-white situations, you’d be both cissexual and cisgender, and your assigned-male-at-birth-but-identifies-as-female friend is both cissexual and cisgender.
Using set theory (and the definitional pattern that reognizes transsexual as a subset of transgender), one can arrive at three outcomes – transgender/transsexual, cisgender/cissexual, and transgender/cissexual.
I don’t know anyone who would be transsexual/cisgender in that definitional pattern, though there are other definitional patterns in which a post-op person, having completed transition, might consider herself or himself as cissexual/cisgender based on reassignment. It does get confusing, but that is because there are a lot of different ways of defining the terms.
Still, Julia Serano’s definitions from Whipping Girl should be just fine.
I get it!We need to come up with a term for non-trans people that is the equivalent of the pejoratively-intended “breeder” for non-gay people. Then we can agree to not use it at PHB, leaving the “cis-” terms for neutral use as meaning “non-trans.”
Cissexual/Transsexual, Cisgender/Transgender, and Heterosexual/Homosexual are pairings, each side of which is not the other.
Maybe “breeder” can do double duty? I know some gays have fathered children, and some lesbians have borne children, and they’re not called “breeders,” so while some trans folks have had natural children (and at least one trans man has had children post-transition), we’ll leave them out of the “breeders” group, too.
Would that work?
Normal is a statistical termIt’s where we get terms like deviance as well as abnormal.
What works with the cisgender/transgender pairing, with cis being not-trans, and trans being not-cis, is that it is different from the normal/transgender pairing, where normal is not-transgender, and transgender is not-normal.
I’ve sometimes dropped the term “normal” in favor of the term “natural.” People whose gender identity c
Transgender people have a gender identity is outside the expected range of persons having their sex as initially assigned based on the mullerian or wolffian duct system that developed before birth.
Transsexual people gender identity is not only outside the expected range of persons having their sex as initially assigned based on the mullerian or wolffian duct system that developed before birth, it is within the expected range of persons having the opposite sex as initially assigned based on the mullerian or wolffian duct system that developed before birth.
There are people who might be not cisgender and not transgender – no binary classification can cover all the bases. For example, some people may not feel any gender identity at all, regardless of their mullerian or wolffian development. While many of them might still fit within the transgender definition, there are some who might not – for example, if their genital development at birth was inconclusive for a determination or they were not easily assigned to the initial assignment. So the typical but rare agendered intersex person might defy b oth cis or trans classifications.
As a statistical term, normal is a definition that applies to statistics that fall along a particular distribution curve. Colloquially, it means “the way a majority of people are” and where white people are a majority, it’s normal to be white. It’s the same thing with heterosexual and cissexual people – they represent the majority in different terms, and within their classification they are statistically normal. But when normal carries the connotation of being good, and the implication is that deviance from the norm is bad, then normal becomes a bad term as a descriptor.
Cisgender is “not-transgender” in the same way that transgender is “not-cissexual.” It makes sense if you look deeper to and read the definitions above as I have cobbled them together.
I know some people have an issue with any sort of label that is not a self-identity. A wristwatch was always a wristwatch, until digital wristwatches came out, and then the wristwatch with the sweep second hand could be called an analog wristwatch. And like the agender intersex person, yes, someone with a wrist-sundial might not have a wristwatch at all, even if they can tell time in a way if they point their arm to the east or west, depending on which write the watch is on.
on my tip toesTheoretically, yes, it would work.
However, at this point, the concept would fail due to established history and the lack of an established cis pejorative overall.
I’d suggest muggle, myself, but I’m cruel that way.
I know a transsexual/cisgenderFour of them, in fact.
That analogy only workswhere the “un” or “non” term is set up as a description of a minority. Cissexual people are the vast majority, so there is no danger of it being misused.
It’s like Gentile as a description of a non-Jew in a place where Christians are the vast majority. Perhaps an atheist might object to being lumped in with Christians and Buddhists as a “Gentile” but it doesn’t make the atheist Jewish, unless, of course, the atheist is a Jewish atheist (where Jewish is referring to an ethnic group rather than a religious one).in whoch case the atheist wouldn’t be lumped in with Gentiles at all.
I’ve read a few people use the termsIntergender or Bigender to cover the middle ground options, in the same way that bisexual covers all the different orientational leanings between gay & straight.
Would that apply here?
only partially.A full listing of all the options I could find for reasonably recognized identity classes, grouped into 5 rough categories based on my best (and likely faulty) understanding of all of them:
Cisfolk: They generally do not change or seek to defy conventional social sex roles, and possess consonance of flesh and spirit.
Intersex folk: They are determined generally according to chromosomal and genital variances.
Transsexual folk: They generally want to adhere to the conventions of social sex roles, possessing socially reversed flesh and spirit.
Middlefolk: non-gendered, gender neutral, agendered, between genders, intergendered, ambigender, genderless, pangender, genderfuck, gender queer, bigendered, gender fluid, and third gendered. They generally do not want to adhere to be social sex role Binary and challenge conventions.
Transgender folk: cross-dresser, drag queen, drag king, androgynes, transvestites, transvestic fetishist, cross-dresser, and transgender. They generally alternate between the social sex roles (gender) to some extent or other, be it externally or internally.
Statistically speaking the size of them, in order, is:
Cisfolk
Transgender folk
Intersex folk (sheer number of variances)
Transsexual Folk
Middlefolk
I’m well aware middlefolk sucks as a term for them. Not my place to create one.
I learned a long time ago . . . . . . that the term “male privilege” is tossed at women who happen to have a trans history. There are even books received with approbation in parts of the lesbian community, that vilify WBTs.
In a way, having a term like “cis privilege” to toss back only serves as just another hand grenade and also doesn’t serve to advance the conversation. But the separatists in my local lesbian community get along wih me just fine, except when it comes to their issues about “women-only space.” as long as they designate it “Women-born-female-only space: I am fine with it, because I believe that even if they’re intolerant, they are also oppressed and while they’re misinformed about my nature, if they really feel a need for WBF space they can have it – just don’t call it women’s space and exclude women like me.
We have two different groups that meet at the same time in the area – the inclusive one at our local LGBT Center, and the separatist one at another venue. Some women go to one group, some to the other, some to both. I am excluded from one group. Some in the other group self-exclude themselves from the group I meet with. It is not a perfect world – and if I am going to be inclusive, I have to be inclusive of those who oppress me, as long as they’re not running the whole show. Otherwise I’d be just like them. I have hopes that some day they will learn that their worldview is as oppressive of me as the patriarchal model they despise is to them. Until then, we do get along in most other areas outside the one-and-a-half hours once a week when we don’t.
Thanks for additional thoughtsThese seem like rather logically-posited terms – about the only one that seems out of place is Middlefolk; I would tend to think something more like Otherfolk might fit – as in “anyone who doesn’t fit in any of the other descriptives.” It’s a simplification of Either/Or/Both/Neither, where one gets Either/Or/Other, though in your analysis, Cis is either, TS is or, TG has some or and some both (the alternately-expressing sort) while Middle/(Other) has some both (fluidic), some neither.
Different viewpoint, not necessarily better or worse. Fascinating.
Query: Are these foks with post-op regrets? [EOM]
No. THey are non-SoCwho generally possessed a variance where their bodies were the source of the dysphoria, but their gender expression was not.
That is, they had issues with being male physically, but not men socially.
In each of the cases (one in Florida, one here in Arizona, two in California), they tried to follow the SoC but were unable to get a particular therapist able to aid them, and so completed things overseas.
Two did nothing neck up, but most everything neck down, one did everything and still lives as a man, and the last only did surgery.
My initial impression of them was the same in the case of the one in Florida (who is a neck up nothing sort). It was after in depth talks with him that I came to realize that other than the issue of social life, he met all the diagnostic requirements for transsexualism and GID.
Hormones in all cases, median age 48.
The one thing that I find interesting from an academic sense is that all of them are men.
I have not met (but do not discount the existence of) a woman.
The implication of mugglesWell, Muggles possibly seem to be pseudo-etymologically derived from a bash of M(agic)+ugl(y), implying an inability to perform magic – a muggle-born who has wizarding potential may be a mudblood by ancestry, but is not a muggle by virtue of possessing the wizarding talent.
Perhaps a bash of T(rans)+ugl(y), resulting in Tuggle, might be appropriate.
I have heard of the term Tigger, with its symbolism of a bouncy striped cat, but in actuality a pejorative bash of T(rans) and the latter part of terribly racist term, being used as an insult aimed at transfolk. On the other hand, “The wonderful thing about Tiggers, is Tiggers are wonderul things!”
The resultant pejoratives would be alliterative, even of they would not be nice to use in polite company.
ITs the fluid vs neitheraspect that I’m trying to figure out a bit more, and my friends who fall in those cats are helping to guide me through my particular privilege in the area (I’m a hard core binary type, myself) which does interfere a bit.
One other issues is the question of IS, which can result in those folks falling into any one of the other categories depending on their individual GI or particular DSD issue, so its there more as a nod to the political aspects of the continuum than the strictly categorical.
LOL!!!Now see, if I’d only read those darn books I’d have done much better, lol.
My family has long used Pooh characters as nicknames for everyone (I got stuck with Roo), so I’m somewhat disinclined to adopt Tigger, in addition to the reasons you outlined above.
Perhaps an examination of some form of negative reaction from chemistry would be useful…
Which means it’s innocuous! [eom]
If it is a descriptor, as had been stated(and no authoritative definition of ‘cis’ that I can find relegates it only to gender or gender identity) it should also be okay to use ‘cis’ to define those in the ‘normative’ majority in other areas.
So, given the predominance in the following human characteristics, it is reasonable to assume that
- brown eyed people are cis-eyed
- folks with black hair are cis-haired
- right-handers are cis-handed
- people who can roll their tongues are cis-tongued
- folks with unattached ear lobes are cis-lobed
- almond-shaped eyes mean you are cis-eyed
- if you don’t have to pluck your eyebrows in the middle, you are cis-browed
- if you don’t have a cleft chin, you are cis-chinned
- if you have a widow’s peak, you are cis-hairlined
- and if you have hair on the back of your hands, you are cis-follicled
I’m a little more convinced if we can take it out of just the gender realm – then it’s just not one group coming up with a name for another.
A war of words over words.And a frustrating read for me, going through the posts here.
I rarely post, I’ve done my activism, both trans and lesbian; I’ve had the rad-fem censures of the sort described in some post and yet been accepted as a woman by other cliques of lesbians with nearly equally second wave beliefs.
To me, and for me, transition is someting that I did once, not that different than going to med school. And though I never stop learning medicine, medical school ended over two decades ago. I grow in my life as a woman, but that is the nature of all women.
There is simply no way to develop a neat, crisp and accurate nomenclature and taxonomy for trans people. This is or will be the likely shortcoming that will stymie the DSM committee; we are simply too different. Everyone experiences transition differently, everyone arrives at the threshold of transition differently. Attempting to add unrelated, broadly assumptive criteria, such as the likely requirements of sexual orientation presupposes mind/body discord as being from one or two causes only.
Cis: Am I cis now that I have completed transition? I define myself as a woman, others treat me as a woman. I live a woman’s life, my life. Is not my inability to be acknowledged as cis now akin to others noxious refusal to recognize women with a history of transition as women? Or am I adhering too much to a binary model of gender?
Which leads neatly into the problems of recognizing that different individuals perceive and live gender differently. Binary vs spectrum, moveable spectrum, and all equally valid because there are people who live, experience and have referential points to gender in one or the other of those conceptions.
Most people that I come into contact with do not know my life story, my history, my narrative, call it what you will. With those casual aquaintances do I possess cis priviledge? Is it somethign that can, therefore, be present or absent depending upon the milieu?
I am not a classic transsexual. I don’t fit the criteria, nor do I fit the autogynophile model, I do seem to fit in the role of woman quite well, “La Doctora” as many of my patients refer to me.
In my best medical opinion, the taxonomy attempts are doomed to failure because they are overly broad and presuppose a static and unchanging state, making no room for the countless exceptions to this or that critria. Similiarly with trans and cis. Both terms carry with them a boatload of assumptions about characterists, assumptions that at least part of the time are inapplicable to some, or to perhaps all of us.
TG vs TS, Cis and Trans…it has all become a war of words over words.
Really?You really had to ask the government to have sex?
You are mocking the entire trans community when you say such a thing.
I am not talking about anectodal reports, I am talking about the law. In my case – and I was born in Pennsylvania, I was REQUIRED to have surgical sex reassignment sugery, and have a record of that surgery to be certified by a notary republic – before I could have my birth certificate altered to declare my female status. This has so many implications – including the right to have consistent identity documents, the right to travel freely, the right to employment as a woman and the right to use the bathroom, that I am flabbergasted you would make such a comparison.
I could go out right this very moment, and fuck whomever I wanted, and the government would have exactly zero power to stop me from doing exactly that.
I am beginning to lose interest in your opinions, because I think there is something else at work, and I sincerely question why you are so vocal on these trans threads, when all you have to say is things that are hurtful to trans people. I have been trying to keep an open mind, and listen to things you have been saying, but I have to say I’m not following you.
The proof is in the pudding, as they sayIf what you say is true, and Raymond’s views are not as influential as I claim, then please explain why: a) articles continue to be published that basically regurgitate her views (I can give examples), b) that trans women are still routinely excluded from women-only spaces, c) major gender identity centers (e.g. Johns Hopkins) were shut down as a direct result of her work, with nary a word from the lesbian community, setting back trans treatment and healthcare at least two decades, and d) why trans women are for the most part delegitimized by vast swaths of the lesbian community for no other reason than we posses the etheral “male energy” that by definition makes us agents of the patriarchy.
It is a classic catch-22. If we sit around waiting for acceptance, it will never come. If we fight for it, we are expressing “male energy.” For my part, I’m over it. And goddamn it, I want my fucking check for working as an agent of the patriarchy…
OK, soapblox is a piece of junk. I responded to two particular posts and they end up as general posts? weird.
Anyway, the first post was a reponse to Peteypornpig’s post about how six years ago, he had to worry about being arrested for being a sodomite, and the second was a response to Maura’s claim that Janice Raymond was not as influential as I claimed. Both of them (IMO) are full of shit.
Well, that does say something for the diversity of the human conditionI sometimes get the question, “if you’re attracted to women, why did you transition?”
The questioner confuses sexual orientation with gender identity and comes to the conclusion that someone attracted to women should somehow have no problem being a man.
This aspect of diversity seems to have had me in a similar boat as my occasional questioner – so I appreciate the answer.
Those examples seem to confirm that an “opposite from that expected based on initial sex assignment” gender identity, while it is often a component of transsexualism, is not an absolutely essential component; that perhaps the other component may be somewhat analogous to apotemnophilia, a discomfort with the body independent of gender identity.
My more ignorant question could well have been posed as, “if you don’t feel that you should be a woman, why have your body altered to female form?”
Another explanation could be this could represent something more like apotemnophilia, and very different from HBS.
(NOTE: When I write “apotemnophilia” I am not endorsing the APA designation of it as a mental disorder, I am referring only to the underlying phenomena, not the the interpretation of it by the so-called experts)
I am reminded of the platypus from Umberto’s essay from Kant and the Platypus; I’m not sure how to classify the phenomena, though I know they exist.
To put it in a different metaphorical milieu, I am sure that the time will come when we will actually have a better understanding of all the phenomena – but for now, we’re still somewhat blindly groping at the parts of the elephant, trying to determine what it is.
That was rainbow phoenix who mentioned sodomy laws 6 years ago
It changed my viewspersonally, as it came at a time when I was leaning more towards a model akin to the HBS type.
All them did gain their diagnosis, mind — so all are transsexuals. But the exist outside the realm of what is usually thought of when it comes to transsexuals, in particular.
I was terribly disrespectful to them during my questions, which ranged from the emotional to the academic to the psychological (as a psychologist myself, I had the same initial thoughts you did, but their particulars did not meet the diagnostic criteria).
IT wasn’t until I first ran into the “you aren’t a transsexual because of x” style of argument that I began to realize the full implications of such.
Their response was that while they may not have felt like living as women, they were certainly female.
When you factor in that there’s a very little talked about concept outside of actual scientific research called Sex Identity, that is a complement of Gender Identity, one begins to realize the reasonings behind the terminology (which, for a long time, really gave me fits, as it met none of the common requirements from the fields I’m used to).
Since Gender is about how others see you, Gender identity is the mental knowledge of how we seek to be perceived. Sex Identity is what we think of our selves as in terms of physiological function.
However, without the structure that creates the distinction of Sex (physiology) from Gender(social interaction), neither concept works and is unsupportable.
That’s generally my second greatest issue with the HBS/CT/WBT, etc groups, in that all too often they attempt to deny a certain basic factual reality that is, in fact, the underlying basis of their ability to make the claims they do — its not logically whole or competent, and deals more in feelings and emotional issues.
My first major issue being, of course, that they are generally not real good at avoiding being disrespectful to others while demanding respect in a culture where you earn it by being respectful in part.
Which is likely a reflection of the emotional nature of their arguments.
(I am aware that you tend to favor them, and I’m not saying this to incite you or anything, merely to express my reasonings for such).
Three years ago I started leveraging my contacts and abilities to seriously delve into the issues here — spurred on, in fact, by my arguments at the time I was having online. Probably the single most useful thing in my entire life about all the years I’ve spent in school, lol.
I made an angry uncalled for slam against transgender people to rioTgirlNo matter how angry I got with two specific people, the “G,L,B…period” statement was wrong.
I apologise to transpeople.
Some thoughts on fluid v. neitherThis is perhaps an area to which I have given some thought; Having a “hard-core binary” identity (even if it is the opposite of that expected, etc.) myself, I have had several opportunities to expand upon my world-view on more than one occasion.
When I do the either/or/both/neither analysis, I have noted different kinds of both:
* those who alternate in binary presentation, often with a dual identity (sometimes expressed in MTF CDs as “expressing their inner femme self” while still maintaining an inner homme self as well – that even appears in the name of one of the national CD organizations, the Society for the Second Self (Tri-Ess)).
* those whose identity is self-perceived as fluid, and whose expression tends toward mixed signals, or at least changes in expression are more fuzzy and less defined
With identities that are neither, expression (at least with those I know who identify that way) seems to tend toward something that appears to be slightly to the femme side of neutral. Those I know who identify as a-gendered seem to tend to see the binary as totally useless, and if they are more militant about it, are much in favor of eliminating the sex/gender binary altogether.
The infinite varieties can be posited in binary terms by positing two slider bars (yes two!) – in two different ways.
If we started with one, having Male-identified at the left end, and Female-identified at the right end, we might see both as being represented by the area in the middle of the slider. We can then posit the second slider unning vertically, representing intensity of gendered feeling, so that strength of identity can be scaled – and this would allow for neither.
This approach would work well on graph paper, with the hrizontal axis running from Male to Female, and the vertical axis representing intensity.
Another approach posits two parallel sliders; one for Intensity of Male Identity, the other for Intensity of Female Identity, both ranging, say, from 0 to 10.
This approach sees the identities as separate, and allows for differing intensities of each that is not necessarily dependent on the intensity of the other.
Prototypical Male-identified people would tend to have a stronger male intensity and a weaker female intensity; vice versa for the prototypical female-identified.
Here, the part-time CD with a bigender identity might have both Male and Female identities that are greater than 5 – and sometimes a female identity that is stronger than the male one.
Those with fluid feelings might have both Male and Female identities that are less than 5. It’s easier to mix presentation where the strength of the intensities are less.
Those who identify as a-gendered, might have very low intensities of both.
The gender identities within Both and Neither, and the various intensities, can be analogized to the way bisexual people perceive their sexual orientations. Not all bisexual people are alike. The slider analogies can be useful here, too – and there are those who tend toward polyamory and those who don’t. There are those who tend toward long-term relationships that seem either gay or straight, and those who find themselves needing to be on the down-low. (Regarding the down-low, there are some who are gay whose straight marriages are only with beards, as a cover, so there is a lot of gray area there, too).
I had a harder time with trying to grok fluidity than I did with agender. But I think I figured out how to fit my mind around the concept in a way that allows my world-view to continue to work with only a little tinkering. After all, Euclidian geometry and Newtonian mechanics still work locally, over short distances and in the non-quantum world – but just try to figure a grand unified theory.
You’re not inciting me! You are perhaps the second or third person I’ve run into whose evolutionary understanding of the phenomena runs similar to mine. The fact that I tend to think the scientific aspects of the HBS thinking make sense doesn’t mean that I go along with a lot of the negative separatist philosophical baggage that has been associated with it.
Unfortunately, I’m a lawyer, so I don’t have professional cred in the area of expertise. On the other hand, I do have a B.A. in psychology (actually, a double major in psychology and business – I had completed the requirements for the psych major, and had a course in industrial psychology that qualified for double-dipping, when I cam to the realization that what i could do with a B.A. in psychology was either go to graduate school or drive a taxicab. I had also gotten disenchanted with the whole “Skinner Box” approach to things, and without having at that time been exposed to Foucault, had developed a rather Foucaultian negativity toward the profession).
I do like your thinking. Really.
Thank you
Same here!Might be surprising but I read Focault long after doctoral award, and to say I snorted wasn’t quite expressive enough, lol.
And yet, as a semi-existentialist, I’d already reach some of the same underlying conclusions regarding knowledge and its development through my work in pragmatics and my theoretical efforts.
If I had read him sooner, I likely wouldn’t have had to rely on so much psych for my sociology doc, but I’m still glad I took the hard route, lol.
And I’m very glad I read Beauvoir before him!
the limitation to this approach is that it’s perceived as too academic and avoiding the voices of the subjects, which I find to be an erroneous assumption based primarily in the lack of full knowledge in the subject, which is highly interdisciplinary.
HehImmediately prior to transition I was working in 3D modeling as my primary means of income, and when you add in that to the spatial analysis I have to do for theoretical work, your particular approach works really well for me, and is especially efficient if you utilize the sex/gender complex as a tripartite system, creating a spatial matrix that really blows the conceptualization open.
Yours applies a bispatial understnading, which, when crossed with a sex basis, creates a three dimensional understanding.
Oooh — I like that. I like that a lot, lol. I’m getting goosebumps.
So, I suppose, at this point, we should likely spend a bit of time getting input from the fluid and neither categories on their outlook and see if we can apply some further extensions of the particular subjects under discussion here (the cis/trans) comparative, which would mean yanking in a biologist or a chemist.
Then we can apply a good schema to the whole, and I suspect we’ll have done what everyone screams about either not wanting to see or seeing too much of.
Add in a correlative matrice of SO, and wow…
And?I’d just like to point out that your rather quick anger and willingness to “drop the ‘T’” is pretty much what has been happening within the movement since the 1970′s. Small wonder why some trans folks are wary when GLB folks call for “unity” and “alliance”.
to be clearMy anger isn’t gone, and I won’t comment on transgender threads in the future. Just letting you know where I stand.
The apology was for transgender people, not you or dys individually.
No WorriesMine isn’t either. I’m sure some trans people will give you a cookie or something.
well, logically…given the colloquial definition and the one applied herein that does mean that, in fact, you apologized to us, since we are, per said definition, transgender (adjectively, if not identity wise).
Nor does the fact that you won’t comment on such threads in the future make the site any safer — from the perspective of inclusiveness and based on the fact that trans people are, indeed, GLB, as well as straight, they are all transgender threads to some extent or other.
Right.I was trying to make the point the cis- terms are in play, these are often used in a neutral manner, so it’s a get along-go along moment for looking at cis- terminology. Even if you personally don’t like the terms, realize the terms can be used neutrally.
I tire over of the war over words regarding trans-related terminology, of wich cis- terms are a part. We don’t seem to get the same level of public fighting inclusive LGBT blogs over LGB terminology, and we definitely don’t see so much ad homminem attacking — so much flaming — either.
Frankly, I’m pretty disappointed in some of the blenders who’ve posted in this thread, and have let most of the ones I’ve seen as engaging in flaming and ad hominem attacking, as well as even in what seems to me to be a bit too much personal intensity in this thread, know what I think about their comments/behavior in private email to them.
I use the term “Matrix”In my standard Trans 101 lecture, which has as its goal getting cissexual people to start with their standard binary, and extend the natural binary from two and only two possibilities (with any exceptions being relegated to the realm of deviance, unfortunately not only in a statistical sense), I start with parsing out four basic characteristics associated with sex and gender (while pointing out that there may well be many more parsable characteristics), and then applying the “either/or/both/neither” analysis that results from taking a one-bit information byte and just extending the statuses mathematically – 0 and 1 are parsed in each category to become 01 and 10 as well as 11 and 00 (which correspond to the words . . . )
I go through the characteristics:
gender identity
sex assignment
gender expression
sexual orientation
applying to each – resulting in a simplified extension of the binary to illustrate natural diversity without relegating “other” to the realm of “deviant.”
The lecture is interactive. I try to elicit descriptive terminology from the participants, help them with some of it when they get stumped, and then provide some thumbnail sketches of identities, assignments, expressions and orientations.
When we limit ourselves to a single binary characteristic, we end up with a limited understanding of Genesis 1:27 – a “male or female” 1 or 0 (even so, that’s a misunderstanding of the biblical phrase, since it’s “male and female”)
Increasing the information byte size allows for the analysis of additional characteristics and provides a better picture.
I always point out that the diversity in reality is much greater than the simple matrix can provide.
People leave the room with some rudimentary terminology and an understanding that nature contains more diversity than they experience in their perception of ordinary daily life in the ordinary binary of [masculine / male (as assigned at birth) / men/ attracted to women], and [feminine / female (at birth) / women / attracted to men], with everyone who doesn’t fit into the compressed binary as one or the other of these binary classes being relegated to that otherness of deviance, to live in the shadows and kept away from children and decent people.