Why?If we’re trying to get past this argument, why did we need a new front page thread about it?  Instead of telling us we need to focus on real issues and not on some PHB pissing match, please just focus on the real issues and not on some PHB pissing match.

Pam asked me to comment.There is a meme out in our threads and out on the internets and in our threads, and Pam asked me to comment on that meme.
A few of my trans activist peers commented that I needed to comment as well.
So, I commented, and I asked questions. And my questions are serious ones.

^^What Trumpet said

So if the “meme” is that you “misstated” somethingwhy don’t you address that.  Why do you instantly put yourself at the center of something totally unrelated to your personal role in that “meme”?

If it doesn’t matter who threw the first snowball……then why don’t you stop blaming the wrong person?
Why don’t you just come clean and apologize to Kynn (and maybe ask Pam to unban her)?
For those who haven’t caught the supposed “meme” — here’s the post on Kynn’s livejournal where she documents Autumn’s falsehoods designed to pin the blame for the “cis” fiasco on the wrong person.
It’s very easy for Autumn, after lying about who threw the first snowball, to then claim it doesn’t matter who threw the first snowball. Especially when the person she unfairly singled out is banned from commenting here.
To those who don’t have the energy to follow the link, Autumn presented a timeline that said, in short:
Kynn’s post on June 29 was the direct cause of Autumn’s moderation choices on June 28. (no, that’s not a typo)
(She later goes on to say the next such post, with “weaponized” cis-terminology, was one made by a cisgender-self-identifying woman on June 26. Explain that to me? I’ve never been good at time travel stories.)
It’s not enough for Autumn to lie about who threw the snowballs and then declare “it doesn’t matter who threw the snowballs!” while picking up her own snowballs to throw at others, as she does with yet another top-level post where Autumn is less than honest.
And yes, it’s most certainly less than honest to claim that anyone concerned about Autumn’s deceptions somehow doesn’t care about Lateisha Green’s murder, Angie Zapata’s murder, the Matthew Shepard act, ENDA, Diane Schroder, or August Provost III’s murder.
Especially when Autumn herself isn’t posting about those and just putting up yet more self-defensive posturing while refusing to address the lies she told.
Autumn, why are you weaponizing those snowballs?

I’m a results-oriented person.I enjoy a good debate as much as anyone else, but when the debate puts real pursuit of our common goals (equal protection of the laws) on hold, I’m through with it.  Now, it’s easy for me to say this because I wasn’t involved in this particular snowball fight, but Autumn I think your rhetorical question is an excellent one.  So my vote from the sidelines is, let’s move on.  That doesn’t mean necessarily forgetting what happened, but rather removing it from the top of the priority list and not allowing it to derail to work at hand.  

lol. sorry, I think I misinterpreted what you said, Trumpet.

Just stopEnough already.

Then why’s it a front page post?How’s it “moving on” for Autumn — with the approval of other baristas? — to say it doesn’t matter what Autumn’s been accused of, let’s talk about something else?
This really, really seems like the Republican strategy for dealing with criticism. Is that truly the real lesson PHB learned from the Bush administration?
Anything you do is okay as long as you decide we need to move forward once you’ve done it?

“Is that truly the real lesson PHB learned from the Bush administration?”

About those pitchforks

And while this fight has been going on and seems to have escalated to pitchforks and torches being passed out at the snowball forts, in the grand scheme of things…

Autumn, you’re the one who introduced, inexplicably, pitchforks.

sigh.If people in a minority group are hurt, then yes, it is important.  Belittling them by putting their feelings on level with the majority’s discomfort at being called on their privileged is not on.  Belittling them by saying their feelings and the situation at hand is not worth attention by comparing it to “real” issues of concern is not on (and my partner doesn’t need to hear this from their so-called community after hearing it for the first half of their life (“this isn’t real abuse; if I abused you, show me the bruises; no one will believe you if you report it; you don’t know how lucky you are”))
We cannot mature as a community if we do not examine our behaviour and take responsibility for it.  We cannot address the “big picture” to the best of our ability if we do not address the issues within the queer community.  
It DOES matter who threw the first stone/snowball/etc.  It matters if it was intentional or accidental.  It matters if they take responsibility for the damage they caused.  And if “the other side” (although as a community we should not have sides) threw back, it matters if it was in self defense or not.
The snowball fight continues because so many people think it “doesn’t matter” who threw the first ball, or why; that we should all just shrug it off and get along.  But the snowballs thrown by cis-gendered people in the queer community have been aimed at my face, and broken my metaphorical glasses again and again, with no offer to help me get them fixed, no sincere apology, and no suggestion that the people repeatedly harming me care that they are or how or why, let alone any promise for it to stop.

you are welcome to disagree with my opinion.and this week because of Pam’s general amnesty, you’re even free to attack me and my motivations personally.  but the question in my mind remains: what, if anything, has Caoimhe done this week to advance legal equality for lgbt people?

As someone who has disagreed with you on other topics……I thank you for taking a principled stand here, Burnsey.
You can follow my links above to see that Autumn first blamed Kynn for starting the argument, and now is claiming that it doesn’t matter that Autumn lied to make Kynn her whipping girl.
The way to address the so-called “meme” is not to say it doesn’t matter. It’s to either say, “look, I made a mistake and I apologize to Kynn” or else “Kynn is lying, let me show you why the timestamps are wrong.” (She isn’t lying, though, so Autumn can’t really take that route.)
Why won’t she apologize? I don’t quite know. Then again, I don’t quite know why she chose to designate Kynn as the instigator when she clearly could not have been. Does Autumn have some sort of personal grudge against Kynn or something?

If only you knewI’ve done plenty, and I’ll do even more if you give me front-page posting rights!
Fair enough?

if only i knew?well, feel free to fill us in any time.  you don’t need front page posting rights one someone elses blog to lay it out for us.

From what I’ve seen here…There appear to be a handful of folks who are intent on making the larger PHB community kowtow to their particular personal sensitivities and agendas.
These few, it seems, have taken it upon themselves to self-select as the arbiters on what is deemed “offensive” and choose to keep stirring the pot until they feel validated.  
This is a broad community that includes and is – I feel – respectful of all the elements of LGBT.  Prior to this recent incident, PHB was always a pleasant and safe environment for PHB readers and contributors.
Having seen firsthand the “value” these spoilers bring, I can understand why some were banned.
I think everyone should put on their big (enter inoffensive PC term here) panties and get on with life.  
There will be no winners in this skirmish.
What Lurleen and Larry said – also.

Pam’s policy applies to personal information posted on PHB, surelyI don’t think she’s got a general policy of banning anyone who ever makes public an email that someone would like to have covered up (even without agreed confidentiality), right?
Would Pam ban anyone who reposted Sanford’s love letters to Argentina on their own web site?
It looks more like Kynn got banned because Pam was looking for a loophole to get rid of a thorn in her side, who was calling Autumn out — because Autumn inexplicably scapegoated Kynn.

I almost exclusively sawpeople saying that you misstated who first snowball, although some were more colorful about it. That seems like the one to address.

Wait a minute…It’s snowing?!!
Or maybe you’re talking about those pink and white snowballs–the edible ones.

Some time I may fill you inOr I might not.
It’s really interesting how defensive the “baristas” get, and protective of their own. Do you have any intellectual curiosity as to whether Autumn was telling the truth when she designated a random person as the scapegoat for her poor moderation stunts?
Or are you simply going to request that anyone who dares challenge one of you must first prove their LGBT activist bona fides before being allowed to point out that, hey, this Empress Has No Clothes?

ETAETA: as far as I am concerned, this is not an isolated incident, and I am not speaking of it as such in this post.  This (the way cisgendered folks in the queer community treat transfolks) has been going on for ages in the queer community.

Not sure what you though I said, but..basically it’s this:
Get back to what you guys do excellently, which is blog about issues in the LBGT community rather than blogging about interpersonal drama here.

lol!

I’m done now, but it’s important in this postBecause Autumn makes reference to the so-called “meme” and does not actually link to it, some people reading this post — and being exposed to the issue for the first time — may not have read Kynn’s post with the timestamps.
Pam herself has claimed ignorance of the sequence of events before, and as long Autumn continues to imply that her fable was either true or “doesn’t matter,” I think it’s important to get the correct story out there.
You’re right, though, that it’s getting tedious — and in my replies to this post, I think I’ve done enough. (Assuming that those post don’t get deleted by the baristas.)

So that’s a “no”Sorry, I thought we were part of the reality-based community here.
My mistake. I also thought this is a feminist and trans-friendly site too, so that shows that I know.
Carry on with saying the truth doesn’t matter, Lurleen!

Regarding reality-based…You’re not helping yourself with this line of discussion…
KYNN.

If it is your desireto ignore the content of my original comment and continue to assume the worst of many of us here, there is nothing we can do to stop you.  So enjoy yourself – it’s a holiday weekend after all – and don’t forget to compare me to Hitler!  Have a good one!

And if I am wrongand you are NOT Kynn, my apologies.
Your phrasing is very similar. Your profile is very new.

AutumnI believe that you made an honest mistake but, nevertheless, it was a mistake.
While I don’t have a position on whether or not Kynn should have been banned, now I do understand her anger. I react just as badly (if not worse) when I am falsely accused of something.
An amends for either a mistake or deliberate harm done goes a long way Autumn. Less for the offended party than for yourself.

Whether I’m Kynn or not, isn’t that personal information?I’m not saying anything, but it seems to me that one of the few rules in force is not giving out personal information about other people.
You should be careful, Louise, about getting banned.

AutumnPlease check you e-mail.
Thanx

I haven’t compared anyone to HitlerSo I’m not sure why you’re telling me to do that.
As for assuming the worst, I can only go by your actions. Your actions have not been to examine what Autumn is accused of doing, but to demand that I provide appropriate LGBT activist credentials. You’re making it all about whether I can prove I have earned the right to speak, rather than whether Kynn has made her case with the timestamps.
Why is that?

Ridiculous.I often lurk here and rarely comment but…
Making a deduction based on wording of comments and profile age is not the disclosure of personal information by any common sense interpretation.  Unless, that is, you’re inferring something else Caoimhe.

Isnt’ that the reason everybody’s upset?Because someone took offense to a word that’s used to identify privilege in the majority, complained, and then the moderators attacked a minority to bend to the whims of the person from the majority.

It’s a reference to PHB’s loose interpretation of revealing personal information.As was stated, someone was already banned for posting “personal information” in the loosest sense that they received an email and posted it on their blog elsewhere.

OMG Yes!!I was not even involved in this little (big) pissing match and I’m getting sick of hearing about it. F*ck people!! I see two problems: 1) some people are way too sensitive about certain words and when they call others out on it they get defensive and offensive at the smae time instead of educating others who most likely are not saying the words in hostility and/or out of a lack of understanding, and 2) some other people are way too sensitive when others call them out on misuse of certain words when they should, from experience, know that differant words to different people can be offensive. No one is absolutely right or wrong – just as in the vast array of our gender identities and sexual orientations, there are a vast array of opinions and a vast array of interpretations.
One thing is for certain, this pissing match isn’t getting any of us anywhere in the fight against the injustice that harms all of us.
In the words of Rodney King, “Can’t we all just get along” I guess the answer is no. My suggestion to Pam is to (but after the week long test) turn off comments all together when these pissing matches start.
About a month ago, and I’m not sure if this is what actually happened, but I commented to a post with the phrase, “look bitches” and immediately got harshly attacked. I’m sorry, but if the people who attacked me were in the same room with me when I said it and assuming they knew me personally, it would have most likely gotten a laugh. Gay men call each other bitches all the freaking time and it is actually a term of endearment when used that way. But, instead it was like I had just called people the ugliest epiteths in the world and in the most vile way when i actually meant no harm at all. The next day, my log-on did not work and my account was apparently gone. WTF? I use this site to network and unite with people and to help push the ball down the road a little bit each day – not to have pissing matches with my friends and allies.
I would guess that those who attacked me for my bitch comment are people who others would call  ”militant feminists”, but I do not call them that – I actually see them as allies and compadres and freinds and never meant any harm.
Anyway, I’ve rambled on long enough, but to summarize, this sh*t is getting ridiculous and it’s undermining the purpose of this site. Those who want to continue the conflict should take it offsite until they can kiss and make up.

To answer your questionYes. The trial for Ms Green will receive attention, Ms Zapata will be remembered, legal battles will continue, the government will be criticized, and hate crimes will be noticed.
To address the actual topic.
The meme going around needs addressed – or not. We, as a trans community and the larger GLb(t) community are quite aware of where our priorities are, we don’t actually need to be reminded as an easy way out to get you or anyone else off the hook.
The larger issue is YOU were taken to task for calling out a fellow (dare I mention gay white male cis) blogger. The isue got derailed from YOUR correct article that Arivosis should apologize to the (t) before using us to make his points.
What was initially a group of YOUR peers in a rally to support YOUR article became a tired debate over the use of a word. Rather than address the derail and the belittling comments, you coddled and comforted the people criticizing you. In an effort to soothe the brused egos of cis gay men, you deemed the correctly applied word “cis” to be a weapon. THIS has yet to be addressed anywhere here.  

yeahpretty much

Am I the only one who is so turned off to all this infighting as not give a shit anymore?  Or wonder when we might get back to the Blend like it used to be?
Great job getting your allies so turned off to anything you’re saying that we’ll probably all miss things that would have been important because none of wants to tune in to the latest “OMG, there they freaking go again” fest.
I’d suggest forming your own blog to talk endlessly about who said what first, but it’d take you until the 2012 elections just to agree on the freaking name.

Just my luckI joined PHB the week prior to this week.
I don’t know the history but it is obviously emotional… but as a newbie my 2 cents is moderate this blog. It is Pam’s House- they are Pam’s rules.
If I walked into my locally owned coffee house and this heated discussion was going on in the middle of the establishment I’d ask for my coffee to go… and leave. If you want “repeat customers” keep this type of string in the diaries and dedicate the front page to current LGBT issues and calls to action.
Or, as a strategy, change the TOS to: not moderated in the diaries, but diary owners must accept a moderated discussion if the diary is moved to the front page.

Yeah, I’m very turned off toobut I do understand the anger now better than ever.

This is actually a great suggestion

Or, as a strategy, change the TOS to: not moderated in the diaries, but diary owners must accept a moderated discussion if the diary is moved to the front page.

I second this.

yawnScott_NC’s comment below echoes my sentiments.

and I’m just shaking my headand chalking it up to ******* drama!

a request for ruthless honesty as one of the prioritiesHi Autumn and others on this site,
My contribution, such as it is or isn’t, is based how I perceive the world around me.
You know how everyone accepts the five senses as real? Well, I have a sense, as real as that in my perception, related to when things are … what I call for lack of other words available to me in this language, dissonant. This is related to deception.
My perception works like this: this dissonance/deception causes me actual pain. This is all sorts of fun in a society that is permeated with deception in the deepest and broadest ways. You may not even realize how prevalent this stuff if you don’t have to feel pain from its presence.
During my lifetime, I have been drawn over and over to groups and communities and movements that are trying to change the way things are.
And I have learned over and over that there are eerie and persistent intersections between the dynamics of oppression and the dynamics of dissonance/deception. They are not identical, but my observations and experiences suggest to me that dissonance/deception is one of the major forces that promotes and maintains oppression.
Maybe not surprisingly, I have found myself struggling a lot with practices of oppression inside of groups and movements that claim to be fighting oppression.
I have had very deep and painful experience of such practice — which comes through to me as painful deception/dissonance — within women’s movement, progressive movement, migrant rights movement, and other contexts (including LGBT).
The way the community on this site dealt with what you are (inaccurately IMO) naming the “cisgender and cissexual discussion” caused me a familiar kind of pain of experiencing deception/dissonance inside a context claiming, one way or another, to be about positive social change.
Autumn, you asked:

In the grand scheme of things: What is important to our community? — What is the bottom line for our community? — What are the priorities for our community?

From where I stand, if the priorities of this community do not require, seek out, welcome and use ruthless honesty about the dynamics of oppression by cis people against trans people that the recent discussions highlighted — then as far as my experience and perception goes, nothing it does will really be about changing the world for the better.
And if the priorities of this community do not require, seek out, welcome and use ruthless honesty about the dynamics of oppression by white people against people of color that are endemic in some parts of LGBT communities and movements, same thing.  
And same about other institutionally-backed power dynamics that occur.
And I will also say this: I make this request as one who has given up. I do not believe such a request will even make sense here, let alone be taken seriously and put into practice in a real way.
A couple of years ago, I gave up on all these movements and groups claiming to be about social change. Because everything I saw and experienced told me that the one freaking non-negotiable in all of these contexts was wanting to hold onto the lies and the cover-ups whenever it served individuals or groups whose privilege was protected by these things, and individuals and groups who had decided to seek cover under the supposedly benevolent “shelter” of others’ privilege.
That is: I realized that the one non-negotiable in all of these contexts, no matter what else was going on, is that members require that deception and dissonance has to be available as a tool when needed. Including for use as a tool against others in the movement whose realities threaten the stories that movement insiders spin about “who we are” and “what we are doing” and “why we are fighting the good fight.”
So, I don’t expect this site to be any different. So I would expect my request for ruthless honesty about internal power dynamics to be ignored or assimilated into meaninglessness here.
So as a back-up request, I would ask that any statements of priorities explicitly include the site’s approach to deception and dissonance. If you want to keep it as a tool to be used, say so. And name the specifics of how and when and why such a tool can be used in a manner acceptable to the community — name who can use it and who can’t and under what circumstances.
I don’t expect this community to do that either. But I am asking for it anyway.  

looks like someone has “issues”Read this part of your post:

2) some other people are way too sensitive when others call them out on misuse of certain words when they should, from experience, know that differant words to different people can be offensive.

Then read the part where you get “way too sensitive” about having those awful people point out that “bitches” might be offensive to a significant part of the readership here.

YES YES YES!!Take this pissing match somewhere else. Someone also posted a scathing article about John Aravosis and his twisting of the facts about the muder on camp pendleton. Wheter he twisted the fatcs or not, why in the hell are we attacking each other? This bullshit has to stop. Take it somewhere else.
I have a one week test too – if this shit keeps coming up on PHB, then I’m boycotting the site until Pam or Autumn take this little pissing contest off-site.
To Pam and Autumn: I love you both, you are both heros to me, your courage and strength are an inspiration to many, BUT this has got to stop. Please take it somewhere else, with those involved, and let the rest of us get back to the real PHB.

Trans activism?You do not want to take it to “what have YOU done for trans rights.” Seriously. Drop it. I was a trans activist for over a DECADE before I ever heard the name Autumn Sandeen, so don’t fucking go there Lurleen, PHB, or anyone. Trying to call that out against a trans woman is transphobic, transmisogynist, and sexist.
I don’t know Caoimhe, but she certainly has more invested in the welfare of trans women than Autumn does if she’s putting up with the hate she’s taking here trying to explain cis privilege.
And Kynn, who doesn’t seem to be able to reply to these accusations because she’s banned, she’s someone I’ve only recently met online, but when the tranny-alert shit was going down, and I put out a call for action to get the site shut down she was relaying info and reaching out to people to raise awareness. In what I saw – and I was in the middle of the action – she played an important part in getting that hate site shut down.
If you don’t know what tranny-alert was about, don’t ask me where PHB was during that time. I emailed PHB along with a number of other blogs requesting help to shut down that site, but never heard a word and I certainly didn’t see one word written about it on PHB’s front page.
So do you want to keep insulting us by suggesting that Autumn is the rock star of activism and the rest of us should then shut up, Lurleen?
And Autumn, it DOES matter in the big picture. None of these things you list are about YOU. Lying about the timeline of your banning of Kynn, silencing trans women speaking about cis privilege, and creating gross derails to paint trans women as aggresive “weaponizers” of words IS about you. Address that, and stop dodging responsibility for your actions and words.
 

And I’ll fourth thatFLAG THIS!!! is highly recommended!!

the question wasn’t directed at you.but i’m glad to hear that you’re a trans activist of long standing.

I understood the reference, but…What makes it less ridiculous?
I get that there is anger over many things including the release of the email, the subsequent banning and what constitutes personal information.  The anger is on both sides, but there has to be a point where it gets a bit silly.
Deal with the issue by discussing it.  Taking unrelated comments and twisting them to suit whatever issue you want to be angry about isn’t particularly worthwhile – especially if the response has a bitter/angry element to it.

Thanks Autumn.We do need to get back to what’s important. Which is to recognize that, whether we are cissexual or transsexual, we are ALL transgender in some way. We are all queer. The same narrow ideologies and gender norms oppress us all and we are all in the same boat (which isn’t to pretend as if we are all the same, or that some people don’t face more adversity than others – but merely to focus on what ties us all together.

Hopefully
Hopefully what is also important to our community is the UAFA bill. Something I dont get to hear much of unfortunately. It’s not more or less important than anything else but for us binationals, it’s the difference between light and dark, life or death.
Happy 4th of July Blenders!

Keep being defensive, it’s the only note you can sing…No, Lurleen, you didn’t, but what you were suggesting was that Autumn’s work is singularly important to trans activism, and questioning another trans person’s activist cred to try to discredit them.
Seriously, you think that shows you’re an “ally”?  

What about a system like Slash Dot has?Enough people put a thumbs down or a low rating on a comment and it is shown condensed.  That way if someone wants to read it, they can open it. If not, it can be ignored.  I miss Usenet where entire threads and individual people could be ignored.  Yes, blogs have made things so much better, haven’t they?  ;^)

“..I put out a call for action to get the site shut down ..”Yes I just took that out of context in gtj’s rant, but we would do well, I think, to study it in relation to what has been going on around here in the past couple of days.

So do you want to keep insulting us by suggesting that Autumn is the rock star of activism …?

a classic example of what Fritz has labeled classic propaganda techniques. Lurleen never said any such thing.
There’s a place on the web for blogs which strive for civility, and a place where anything goes.  Sadly for you and people who interact like you do, this will never be a place for you. But that’s okay; you’ll go back and add this episode to your long list of internecine warfare stories that you lovingly dissect with fellow warriors. Too bad.
Gotta go.  I think some misogynistic gay male asshole may have just used “GLBT” when he should have used “LGBT.”  Just you wait. I’ll set him straight.

No, what I suggested wasthat our collective civil rights work is paramount, and I’d like for us all to get back to it.

Funny…Kynn was Caoimhe on June 13th…now she’s back under a new namehttp://keeva.dreamwidth.org/20…

This is what’s important, according to Pollyanna.Oh my god, Pollyanna, you are comparing the action about tranny-alert.com, a site which outed trans women against their wills and threatened their safety to challenging PHB about their silencing and banning of people over cis, and scapegoating of a user because Autumn lied about the timeline? Are you really making that point? Do you have any idea what the fuck happened with tranny-alert.com?
You do realize the definition of Pollyanna is “A person regarded as being foolishly or blindly optimistic”? I am not saying anything, just suggesting we study that in your inability to understand the points being made by others.

well said scott.I’m fed up.  This is a nasty playground now…goodbye.

Just a thought…But it would be helpful to flag, categorize or otherwise keep what I consider “academic” exercises regarding language usage and other “queer”-studies-type discussions off the front page and in their own diary.
It’s getting really hard to wade through the all of this squabbling to get to discussions of the real issues facing our community and trying to reach consensus on strategies and tactics to advance REAL priorities.

This is a familiar argumentThis issue is so minor, let’s focus on bigger things because we can’t do two things at once.  It’s a very effective silencing technique.  Like, stop pushing for repeal of DADT or DOMA because we have to worry about health care and the economy!  Sorry, I don’t accept that.

Well said.

Me too.It would be nice…

This is freakin’ rediculousAutumn just made a valiant attempt to defuse this situation and now you and others are trying to add fuel to the fire…do any of you actually listen to yourselves? This whole conversation is so far out of hand it is truly unbelievable. Honestly, as a cisgender straight married woman with three children I donate this piece of my mind. If you want equal rights and want to be recognized as contributing members of society with something important to say then stop acting like children. Shut up and own up to your shit.
Personally I don’t know why anyone should treat you any differently than the way you act.
Kim Pearson

Yeah, two wrongs don’t make a right!and I do agree with Autumn in this sense:
At some point it doesn’t matter how the snowball got rolling or who started, all who keep the snowball rolling are culpable and responsible for their actions.

“REAL” priorities?And who decides what those are?  Obviously silencing trans voices is important enough for some people to fight against.  That’s one of my priorities.  Honestly, DOMA doesn’t mean a thing to me personally, nor does DADT.  But I know they are wrong.  They are still high on my list, but since they don’t affect me personally, then, should I stop caring and can I try to make sure I don’t have to constantly read about them on the front page?

Meek VoiceFolks, I love this blog so much. I hope what I say will not in any way sound like an attack or slight to anyone, because I honestly mean no offense.
This thread is impenetrable for outsiders, that is, people who have not read everything from the very beginning.
This makes it very difficult to comment one way or the other (or more importantly, understand) what is at stake here.
I love and cherish Pam, Autumn, Lurleen and I don’t really have a mental image of anybody else, although there are so many lovely posters here at PHB. I feel as if something bad went down, related to cisgender as a label, which at this point I’m not going to assume any of the posters have a common definition for. I would like to invest the 45 min. or so probably required to go do my homework on this. I hope to do so.
I just wanted you to be aware of where a random bar-attender stands. I could also be completely out of it, as usual, with everyone else getting the discussion! Would not be the first time in my case  

Caoimhe is KynnBTW, Caoimhe is Kynn:
http://keeva.dreamwidth.org/pr…
Screenshot from a publicly accessible page (not bright):

Buh Bye…

Um, whose civil rights?Because the way I see it, cis privilege and the silencing of trans voices by much of the mainstream LG community is directly related to MY civil rights.  Cuz I’m never going to join the military, so DADT is not a civil rights issue to me personally.  And I’m not trying to, nor do I expect to ever try, to same-sex marry, so DOMA is not about my civil rights either.  But those things DO matter to me.  If MY civil rights don’t matter to YOU, well…  I guess I’m getting the short end of our “alliance”.

Cool!So where’s the diary on “all things cis”?  Wouldn’t this be a great week to discuss this topic if people were really interested in such?
Where’s the diary – not started by Autumn – about problems with moderation and suggestions for improvement.
The fact that the “opposition” response is to recruit new people to come in and conduct guerrilla warfare “gotcha” in every thread in order to derail every conversation tells me most of what I need to know about the honesty of the opposition.

I think you miss the pointI didn’t get “sensitive.” I thought about how others might have taken my comment in this impersonal forum where body language and intent are hard to discern. I realized I should no longer use the term “bitch” as others are offended by it. I did not go on tyrade. I made 1 or 2 comments to explain myself and extend an open hand. When I realized I had been banned, I simply created a new account and moved on.
My point is that we all have sensitivities and we all have compassion. So instead of carrying on a “war” in public, we all should step back and consider how terms we find harmless can be offensive to others AND we should all realize that the way to call someone out on using an offensive term is to educate, not attack.

I agree. The either/or, black/white analysis is tired.So where’s your diary about gender terminology and cis privilege?  Or your diary about anything of interest to you?
If your reply is going to be some variation on the theme of “Oh, Pam’s House Blend is not a safe place for me,” then please indicate what your purpose here has been this past week.

Me tooTake it somewhere else.

And — about controlling the storyAdding to my previous comment:
One of the ways that deception/dissonance operates to support and perpetuate oppression is that the cultural system grants a large amount of interpretive power to whoever supports its needs at any given time.
This post here serves the needs of that larger system. It is horribly inaccurate in setting up a “what happened with the discussions of cis” versus “bigger picture/grand scheme” dichotomy.
What happened and is happening here is not trivial, small, outside the grand scheme of things. It was not a “snowball fight” and naming it that way supports the perpetuation of the larger system’s own needs to do harm in invisible ways.
What occurred was, and remains, seriously connected the power dynamics that permeate our everyday lives via the larger system we are in. That’s big picture. Very big picture.
Attention to how those power dynamics operate, including attention to why and how we, collectively, would collaborate with the system that does violence against us (all of us, LGB and/or T) — this is important. This is a crucial part of the bigger picture.
There is no “large vs small” difference between what has happened in the discussions of “cis” and the larger power dynamics that this site supposedly attends to.
This is all part of the same interwoven, internally synergistic (is that the right word?) system. Stories like this post, stories that inaccurately and deceptively separate these things, serve the larger system by making invisible some of how it works, some of how it makes its own violence and harm normal and apparently plausible.
Why is this deception, this inaccuracy, this flaw in the post not screamingly obvious to everyone reading this? Why? What makes this kind of spinning culturally plausible?
And here’s a warning or reminder: Any system-supported violence and harm any of us can do against another of us without being stopped  – can be done to us by others whenever the system decides it is expedient for us to be the target. It doesn’t care.
Choosing to support the side of power now will not protect you. You’re expendable to this system and even if you choose its side now, it will not be loyal to you later if targeting you will serve its needs.  

To veendamThis site is not usually like this. We do have open debate and different opinions, but not like this. Don’t give up on PHB. It’s one of the BEST lgbt blogs out there.

If you can quote me saying thatyour civil rights are less important to me than anyone elses, I’d like to see it.
I find it fascinating that I’ve been made a target in this diary, especially since I’ve said absolutely nothing on the “snowball fight” subject until my comment today.  And even then, it was a meta comment, not a comment taking sides in the snowball fight.  Yet people feel the need to make assumptions about me and try to pull me into the fray.  Truly fascinating.

Or I did not make myslef clear, sorry

ROFLLove you, Pam.

It’s pronounced “PWNED”

HUH ?Not to sound to Blonde but what does cisgender and cissexual even mean ???????
Brandi Parker

Yes it is.First off this is a comment on actions not a person. (Thank you for your recent help.)
The issue is that your posting (Autumn) identified the wrong person and lead to her banning. All “the dessinters” are asking is for you to say. “Yes I made a mistake, that indirectly or directly lead to a banning here. I will be more careful in the future.”  IMHO I think that will go a long way. There are still blenders out there that will not accept that but from my reading that is all that has been asked. In this issue.  

Hi Al,it seems that you have a lot to say and are impassioned (and discouraged) about the subject of minority group oppression, among other things.  Why not put up a diary and see who comes by to chat with you?

What Kim said.This debacle is the first time I’ve even heard the term “cis”.
I’d like to know why I should be offended.  And what should have been done about it.
Or not. And perhaps not done…
wait…
Whatever.
There are way too many labels like “cis’ and “-stics” and “-phobics” flying around to keep track.

Education is needed!Pam,
This is a great time to do a post about what “cis” actully means. From the google/wiki research I’ve done, it is already clear to me that a consencus on the term does not even exist. Many of us are confused by this entire thread as we were not in it from the beginning and/or we do not even know what cis is. I would write the article, but am certainly nedd qualified to do so.
I would suggest that Autumn (love you Autumn) not write the article as she is too close to this heated debate and would be open to further attacks. Maybe you could tap one of your contacts with the right background to do an unbiased post for the rest of PHBers.
Respectfully,
John

IDCAYCOThanks for clearing that up, white cis* woman with a title.
- A trans woman

Excellent points, AutumnThis diary and the other on “Bye Bye ENDA” are both excellent.
Your questions on priorities and the bottom line hits the nail right on the head.
This is something I touched on after the ENDA vote in 2007/2008 when there were a lot of hurt feelings and people were expending energy on condemning HRC, instead of regrouping for the next round of ENDA votes.
Now is the time to start lining up those “YES” votes for ENDA instead of going back and forth on the “cis” debate.
I am amazed at the energy level that is still being expended in this very thread about the prior topic, instead of laser focusing on getting those “YES” votes.
To everyone here, I say, take the high road. Resist the temptation to jump into a thread that is related to the prior “snowball fight”.
If we have a repeat of the ENDA vote where it falls short for support of gender identity, but moves forward and passes with sexual orientation, and you didn’t call your representative, well then, whose fault is that?
To paraphrase Autumn, “What are your priorities?”
Only you can answer that question.

Hi Michelle,You joined PHB within three days of the now-famous Kynn in October, 2007; you both posted for basically a couple of months, then disappeared; then you both reappeared to participate in the “cis war.”  What do you hope to accomplish?
It is clear you have thought long and deeply about certain things and are able to express your thoughts at length. Why not create a diary so your opinions aren’t buried in these threads?

It’s called leadershipAutumn,
Could it be possible that you might have taken the wrong action? And even if you feel certain that you did, the result was probably not what you were after. Either way, a sincere apology would go miles.
I respect you enormously and call on you to end this divisive infighting with honor and decency. Which IMHO would be more than Obama did after that DOMA brief.
What’s going on here is akin to the whole Palin debacle:
She is attacked. She attacks back.
She is attacked. She attacks back.
She is attacked. She attacks back.
She is attacked. She attacks back.
She is attacked. She attacks back.
She is attacked. She attacks back.
She is attacked. She attacks back.
Get the point?
If Sarah had not responded the way she did (not saying she didn’t deserve to be attacked) she quite possibly could have trumped the whole lot of her attackers.
Hold your head up high (beret and all), stand tall, walk proudly and do the right thing – end this damaging debate. Show us how it’s done. I will always have a hundred times more respect for humble decency than proud rightiousness.
PS: I’m not passing judgment – I honestly don’t know who is right or wrong. But the way the attacks have been lobbed against you and John Aravosis has not lent me to be sympathetic to other side.

I disagree. I think it would.And if the person does not accept the apology and/or continues this divisive thread, the debate will be over in the minds of those listening.

You are saying something.Earlier in http://www.pamshouseblend.com/… , Caoimhe used exactly the same term – ‘I am not saying anything.”  I was driven to respond to that comment then just as I’m driven to respond to this one.
Using such a phrase is a way to escape responsibility for assertions you are making.  You’ve gone and defined Pollyanna’s screenname, said you’re not saying anything and then gone ahead and suggested that ‘we study’ something based on the original assertion.  Weak.

Yes it will make a differenceFor Autumn, that is. Now what Autumn isn’t accountable for is how the one that is offended (Kynn) in responds as it relates to this specific harm. Autumn doen’t need to “kiss ass” but I would suggest that she is sincere.
It works wonders, trust me on that.  

i find it very interesting……the extent to which the language used by Blenders infuriated by the very existence of this whole “cis” debacle mirrors that used by many straight liberals reacting to LGBTQ anger over delays on DOMA and DADT.
i have read post after post on straight, liberal blogs to the effect that the Democratic party has a lot on its plate right now- that we need to concentrate on health care- that not everything is about the gay minority- that straight Democrats (the “real” Democrats?) will not let us hijack their party. i have read comment after comment mocking the idea of “heteronormative privilege” and telling us that we could all get so much more done if the queers weren’t so divisive about their petty little issues.
i’ve noticed that privilege always sounds more or less the same.
almost universally, people are upset to be called out on their privilege. why is this? is it really so horrible to think that there might be something we personally don’t see, because we haven’t had to see it yet? to call someone out on their privilege is not to insult them. it is not to say they’re a bad person. it’s to say that there’s something important that they don’t understand. it took me a long time to become aware of my white, middle-class privilege- and don’t even get me started on how it feels to realize that i had no concept whatsoever of ableism until i became disabled myself.
to straight Democrats: there IS such a thing as straight privilege. please step back from your reaction for a moment. it won’t hurt you to listen. to cis people: there IS such a thing as cis privilege. it won’t hurt you to listen either, and considering how few of us there are to begin with, it will almost certainly help.

Multiple Personality Problems Kynn?see a shrink, don’t play the drama out here.
I saw much better drama in Austria two days ago, with full orchestration and great vocals…
(I saw “Rebecca,” if you ever get the chance…see it!)

you are a mess and every post of yours is intended to stir sh!t up.

you keep responding to posts this way…“If you feel so strongly about this, why don’t you create your own diary?”
apparently, you also check people’s profiles to see when they joined and how much they’ve posted. are you trying to determine whether they qualify as “real Blenders”?
obviously, this is Pam’s blog. and obviously, if she and you would rather it be a blog about Pam, her baristas and their special friends, that’s fine. a lot of blogs are like that.
in that case, however, it might be a good idea to stop calling it An Online Magazine in the Reality Based Community. something a bit more insular, perhaps?

ThanksKim ty for clearing that up somewhat for me but I’m reallllllllllly Blonde so what’s the “cis” part mean ? and just what makes a person a Cissexual if thier not Cisgender ?
Brandi Parker  

Mine…“To paraphrase Autumn, ‘What are your priorities?’ ”
To be heard and have my experiences respected.  
It may seem like such a little thing, but if my own community can’t do that much, what hope is there for the community to be heard and respected by outsiders?

ATTACKThis comment is obviously a personal attack. Let’s stick tot he facts – please. Oh hell, I’m pissin’ in the wind on this idea.

People were spending energy on HRC because they’re effectively the gatekeepersfor LGBT lobbying on Capitol Hill. It doesn’t matter how we organize around regrouping for the next round of ENDA votes if HRC is willing to torpedo trans exclusion yet again.
If anything, criticizing HRC’s willingness to dump trans people from ENDA at the first sign of something that may kinda look like trouble if you squint at it sideways is a part of organizing and regrouping for the next ENDA.
It’s also a fallacy to assume that no one cares about ENDA because people also care that a site that presents itself as trans-friendly has done some very trans-unfriendly things in the past week.
And I’m not talking about intentions – I believe that Pam and Autumn both intend to have a trans-friendly site, that the baristas in general want this place to be safe for trans people to read and comment without expectation of getting attacked, but this is not the reality, and some cis blenders seemingly feel free to trash and attack trans people, complain about terminology trans people have created to both identify how we’re treated in society as a whole as well as how cis people are treated in comparison to trans people, and in general attempt to derail any discussion in which trans people are centered.
Why is that?
And why do you assume that posting here really means that no one cares about what Autumn listed – Autumn’s post is using classic derailing tactics.
It’s not as if no one is talking about the issues she mentions, it’s just that there’s no way to magic away the fact that people are angry about what’s gone down here.
Also, any particular person who doesn’t call their representative about ENDA is not the reason that ENDA may not pass, or may have gender identity excised again. If gender identity is excised again, it will be for the same reason it was excised both previous times – Barney Frank and HRC cutting a deal behind trans people’s backs in exchange for more votes.  

Oh, wait, nevermindI see what you really think.
Also – it is not at all clear-cut that we didn’t have the votes. There were irregularities when the representatives were polled, and Barney insisted we “needed to do the education” while at the same time not telling us who we needed to talk to. Gender identity was dropped in the 11th hour and the transphobic ENDA was pushed to vote asap and HRC published a dodgy poll to “prove” that trans people didn’t have support – and they buried another poll that showed that trans people have perhaps more support for civil rights than cis LGB people.

YeahThat is oversimplified. Maybe, Kim, you are a person with the right background who could write an intelligent (and unbiased) post about this whole “cis” thing. Also, while I do not have it in my heart to seek to exclude anyone from society (except those who DO chose to exclude others), I really am ignorant of what the terms transsexual and transgender actually mean. The only things I really know is that I’m a big ol’ homo and that I really don’t give a crap what a person’s gender, orientation or other is or is not. But for purposes of understanding, I do think we need an intelligent and thoughtful article about cisgender, cisexual, transgender and transsexual, and how these terms are used in society, both negatively and positively.

I appreciate that and I appreciate you and Pam.But, women, you’re in charge here!
Stop trying to play nice with the psychos!
Stop messing with your successful blog because there are crazy people in the world!
Stop apologizing for being right!
Autumn, I get you have to live fulltime in the same community as the mush-minded maniacs who have chosen to attack you.  I’m sincerely sorry that’s so.  However, you don’t approach people like that from a position of weakness.  That’s EXACTLY where they want you and they will NEVER let you get back up from it.  So just don’t go there!
Kick them out, ignore them, whatever, but let’s please move on!

There’s even such a thing as Trans privilegeIt’s rather miniscule though.
I’m Right-wing. OK, socially liberal, economically conservative, the exact opposite of what the GOP has become.
But I can say things in a Leftist-dominated discussion and get away with it, when I’d be shouted down if I wasn’t in an obviously oppressed minority. People are too darned afraid to be called “transphobic”.
I sometimes get a giggle out of watching their heads explode. First the Right-wingers, who when they find out I’m Trans (well, Intersexed but never mind) have Terminal Cognitive Dissonance. I can’t exist if their worldview is correct.
But it’s those on the Left that really have problems. It Does Not Compute. Worse, the cisgendered ones can’t even call me a Class Traitor (or equivalent) without being seen as transphobic.
OK, this privilege isn’t much, compared to the 17x greater risk of being murdered, the denial of basic human rights etc. But I’ll take what I can get, and sometimes the results are hilarious.

Don’t put words into my mouthI didn’t say she should say it is all her fault. What I said was (and again maybe it is my fault for not making myself clear) that if she chooses to, she can accept responsibility for HOW this played out regardless of whether it is her fault or not. Autumn is the one with the “power” here as a PHB reporter and access to moderating tools, etc. She is also the “leader” of any story/article she posts. There are many ways this could have played out – but it has dragged on for quite a while. I feel that Autumn has the power to end this increasing ridiculous “fight” by accepting responsibility for HOW it played out and apologizing for the outcome. With that, Autumn would, in my mind amd the mind of others based on some of the comments (ex: kevinchi), come out all the better for it, and, do alot to suppress this raging fire.

ThankyouThanks to both you and Autumn for all you do.

Well, if you read more than my reply…I was invoking irony because Pollyanna had just posted…
“Yes I just took that out of context in gtj’s rant, but we would do well, I think, to study it in relation to what has been going on around here in the past couple of days. ”
…which is exactly what you are saying. It’s raising vague ideas and criticisms without actually coming clean to make a point. My point was gee, she’s being evasive, and yes, that is why I used that language. Not to imply anything about her, but to illustrate how she used it.
I have no idea what that comment you linked to has to do with what I said.

So trans people’s civil rights are contingent upon internet arguments and cis people’s perception of those arguments?That’s interesting to know, from someone who advocates for trans people.
I mean, I know what you did at KRXQ, and I think that was brilliant, I really do. But at the same time, don’t you see what kind of tactic you’re using here? How you’re reinforcing the status quo by talking down to and treating trans people as children, and lecturing us on how we’re too mean and if we don’t shut up we’ll be sent to bed without any ENDA?
I think there’s quite a few people on this forum who aren’t owning their shit, and quite a few of those people are cis, and somehow the focus isn’t really on how they keep trying to maintain a relationship in which they get to label, other, exotify, and demean trans people, but on how terrible it is that trans people dare to object to that treatment, try to disrupt that treatment, and try to denaturalize the assumptions that make that treatment acceptable in cissexist society.
I believe that Pam and Autumn want a trans-friendly space where trans people feel welcome to comment and participate and contribute to this community, but when Autumn says she’s going to ban the next person to defend cis terminology, she’s reinforcing that. When her posts about the fallout are focused on how trans people have been weaponizing cis, or how this argument is stealing attention from important issues (which are somehow still being discussed while also being neglected).

that sort of makes me wish i knew more people who are phobic of being called transphobic :-/seriously, i think you must move in very different circles than i do, since i’ve never met IRL anyone who actually is socially liberal and economically conservative. i also know  how exhausting it can be to hear a bunch of liberals reassure themselves of how PC they are, but what bothers me most is that much of the time it really does seem to be just lip service. if you can say you worked for civil rights in the 60s, you can apparently expect to be given a free ride on any bullshit you might try to pull. if you’re black that makes it OK to be homophobic, and if you’re gay that makes it OK to be ableist, and if you’re disabled that makes it OK to be racist… and on, and on, and on. seriously, what is so terrible about shutting up about your theoretically universal experience long enough to listen to someone who to whom it doesn’t apply?
i really don’t care what words people use, except to the extent that the words reflect their biases. for example, a few months ago, a friend of mine called my partner a “tranny”. she’d heard me using the word in a different context, had never really heard it elsewhere, and thus had NO IDEA how it would sound when she said it then. she understood what we were saying regarding her use of that word, we understood where she was coming from, and we went on from there. it took a few sentences to resolve.
if she had spent those sentences, and several dozen after them, telling us that it’s just a stupid word and we’re oppressing her by saying we’d rather she not use it- that’s how i would have known that she was NOT a friend.

Thing about this isthe way this continues to be handled really, really reeks of cisgender privilege from the very beginning until this moment.
And that’s coming from someone who actually earned the title of Mr. Cisgendered Cissexist Pig. (And I do want a sash!)
Really, I could end much of this in one post if I wanted to, I don’t like seeing all of this vitriol.
And it doesn’t even matter who makes proper amends at this point. The actions of both Autumn and Kynn have now really, truly, hurt others.
Nothing that a little humility (and less pride) can’t cure.
 

cis*Lisa Harvey at Questioning Transphobia wrote this a very good and clear explanation of cis*. Actually, PHB would be well served to ask Lisa to repost this on their front page.
Dglenn has an awesome post explaining why the terminology is needed.
Regardless if you think I’m the big bad mean tran, these are great resources from people who aren’t me, so give them a chance.

Oh, honey.They’re made-up nonsense words designed to give damaged people something new with which to attack strangers on the Internet.
I have never ever heard them outside of here and I will bet the milk money that I will continue to never ever hear them outside of here.
And for that I am truly, sincerely and deeply grateful.
And, no, I would never ever make a post like this in any other week.  And I’m sorry if it hurts the feelings of any well-meaning, well-adjusted, intelligent regulars here.  But this week hasn’t been remotely like any other week and I couldn’t care less about the feelings of the people who have made it so.

Apologies…I was just looking for this comment so I could reply and apologize, I was out of line. I’ve been a bit sensitive to cis* people telling me what is and isn’t important, and judging my value as a trans person based on criteria of how much activism I’m supposed to be doing, etc.
Being an ally doesn’t remove you from cis* privilege, and I hope you see how it is problematic for you to come on a thread and tell trans women that our concerns aren’t material, or try to show me up with that “Yes I am” grandstanding because you’re a friend of Autumn’s.
Although I do appreciate that you do the work you do, whatever activism you do doesn’t clear you from having to have the same analysis as any other cis person. And… even when you do activism for a group that group must always remain the dominant voice in that movement. It is never an ally’s place to tell someone who is part of the oppressed group the way their politics and activism must be done.

it has to do with the fact that……however much of an ally you might be, your perception of what it means to be transgender DOES NOT trump someone else’s experience of being transgender. you still have cis privilege, and waving your privilege about like this, even in defense of your friend, does not help make your point.

cis* privilege?It’s this. ^^^

this sort of thing happens a lot……with parents of autistic children, who, when dealing with an adult autistic person whose opinion differs from theirs, will use their status as a parent of an autistic person to silence someone who actually is autistic. most ironic exercise of privilege i’ve ever seen…

here’s a few important things to mein no particular order
passing ENDA
passing hate crimes protections
ending DADT
repealing DOMA
ending the war in Iraq
ending all other wars!
universal health care
true equality for all: l,g,b,t,i,q,cis,het, and anyone else I forgot to list in the alphabet
dealing with the inequity between the top 1/10 % who control 90% of the resources, and everyone else who are left with bupkes, nada.
creating a world in which it is safe to be any gender/sex on the continuum, be they binary or non-binary
creating a world in which it is safe to love whoever one chooses, regardless of their sex/gender

Actually…That is an issue we are, as you might imagine, behind the scenes, are discussing for what the website is to look like on July 10th and after.
Pam owns this website, I “work” for her. (If she quadrupled my pay; however, I’d stil be earning $0.00 from front-paging here.) So do others.
We’d like to maintain the atmosphere of us all meeting and talking around a virtual LGBT coffee house table in an air of civility, but none of the barisas has the time or desire to police every comment in every thread to make sure this happens.
In other words, we want you to be able to disagree with me (as we’ve disagreed publicly in the past), but still be able to come back to the same virtual coffee table and share another round of virtual coffee and/or tea later. And Pollyanna, next round of virtual coffee to you is on me. I’ll be drinking a virtual hammerhead, per usual.
I understand this site has become an LGBT institution. As we’ve grown, it’s become impossible to be the “thread cops” to the level we used to be when a few here don’t want to “play nice.”
However, as we’ve seen, some want us to act as the site’s ever vigilent police officers, and others want us silence every point of view but their own, and others want a free for all. Pam, and her staff of unpaid baristas, want the LGBT neighborhood coffee house feel back.
And, this is Pam’s virtual LGBT neighborhood coffee house, and we have more than double the customers we had last year at this time. Some of the new customers don’t know what the concept of the site is, and some of the regulars seem to have forgotten. So what does Pam, and the baristas who work here for free at her virtual coffee house, do to keep up the “gayborhood” flavor of the blog? Obviously, thought is being given what the July 10th rebooted website “house rules” are.
I haven’t given up hope as yet. Pollyanna, folk like you who “get” and value the nature of this website still give me hope we can salvage this website.
If not, I’d hate to see Pam evetually get to the point of wanting to shudder the doors. She’s not there yet at all, but I love my virtual neighborhood coffee house too much to see the owner consider closing it down — should she just have had one too many problems with virtual LGBT customers.
Again, we’re not even close to there yet, but that’s a thought that’s crossed my mind more than once this past week. I love a virtual coffee house of friends coming and discussing issues — I don’t want to keep visiting a free speech free-for-all. There’s plenty of those on The Internets already.
And frankly, if you were Pam, Lurleen, Louise or me, would you want to keep serving up the beverages here in the current environment? Who would Pam “hire” next for the shop if the current crop of baristas quit?
Frankly, we’ve already had one other barista tether a tentative resignation behind the scenes, specifically because of how hard it is to serve up the drinks in this difficult environment. I hope the resignation doesn’t take — but currently it’s a pretty tough crowd out in the coffee house virtual “lounge.”

I had a feeling they were one and the samebut then I thought that’d be traceable and she wouldn’t be that stupid.  apparently I was wrong and she is

Surprisingly, I do read more than just your reply.Shockingly, I didn’t click into this mass of comments and choose your comment by randomly stabbing my finger at the screen.
Firstly – I referenced another comment becausse, as I said in my post, it used the exact same wording that I was criticising – ‘I’m not saying anything.’  It’s a phrase I dislike because it’s a way of avoiding responsibility, often for an attack.  

…and yes, that is why I used that language. Not to imply anything about her, but to illustrate how she used it.

I don’t understand the last part of this quote – illustrate how she used what?  Regardless of any clarification of that point, you were implying something about Pollyanna in your post imho.  In your earlier comment, after your definition of Pollyanna’s screen name, you said ‘I am not saying anything, just suggesting that we study that in your inability to understand…’  You linked it specifically to Pollyanna.
Unlike how you would paraphrase my comment, I don’t really care about vague ideas and criticisms – they are flying left, right and centre at the moment.  I am very specific in what displeased me – If you’re going to go on the attack against someone, don’t try and hide it.  Don’t say ‘I’m not saying anything’ – You are saying something and the very wording suggests you quite clearly know it.

Re: Holding ENDA hostage for gender identity

Also, any particular person who doesn’t call their representative about ENDA is not the reason that ENDA may not pass, or may have gender identity excised again. If gender identity is excised again, it will be for the same reason it was excised both previous times – Barney Frank and HRC cutting a deal behind trans people’s backs in exchange for more votes.

If adding “gender identity” causes ENDA to fail to get a majority of votes, but removing it causes it to pass, then I agree with Barney Frank and HRC to move forward with a sexual orientation ENDA that protects millions of people.
It would be unconscionable to throw millions of gays and lesbians (some of them trans folk who are gay) under the bus with an all-or-nothing strategy.
Protecting millions of people is better than protecting nobody.
People really, really need to get over this aspect of ENDA. Civil rights come incrementally.
Hopefully the votes for gender identity are there this time. But if the votes for gender identity just aren’t there, then we cannot hold ENDA hostage.

What is important to meCredibility of the management of PHB.
Everything else is secondary.
If the site is run in an Honest manner the site will remain a credible site in spite of the name calling I find offensive in headlines from time to time.
Stuff like Wingnut, and Teabaggers.
Once the management of PHB can prove their honesty this site will have the street cred it once had.

All this sturm and drang reminds me of this…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…
(with abject apologies to any single letter or combination of letters and/or self-identifiers out there for trying to inject a bit of humor… not to mention MPFC)

Comedy, tragedy, or satyr play?LOL

understood but please consider the way you may be communicating may be over antagonistic to allies who have not done thisagain we’re weaponizing words and overplaying victimization status to the point some folks seem to insist on giving their allies the big F U.  I am the first to admit that I will never understand what it is to be trans or gay or a man or Christian; what I do understand is that our constitution is supposed to provide equal protection & rights under the law and that any good/moral/ethical being will recognize that and fight for it because it’s the right thing to do.  It’s really hard to even want to keep in touch to keep informed and be an ally when you’re been castigated for some undeserved “privilege” especially when the intent is to imply one has no idea of what it is to be an outsider from any perspective or that their hardships are inherently meaningless because their not perceived to be as bad as someone else’s hardships.  From that outsider perspective it looks like the great pissing match of one upsmanship usurping the need to work together towards common goals.
Sorry but accusing all allies (and this weaponization of words is doing just that) of waiving their privilege around doesn’t help make your point either. The person who is not being oppressed for being like you is not necessarily your oppressor and you should take care when treating them as such.
You may also want to consider that your experience as being transgendered does not provide you with the right to trump the perception, experiences and opinions of another transgendered person.  Members of the oppressed group can undermine that group as much as a well intentioned ally (just as both can help that group as well).  Not everyone will agree and to summarily disregard someone’s comments/suggestions just because they were born with a privilege you do not have could be short-sighted and damaging to your cause in the long run.

Depends on your perspective…http://hhgproject.org/entries/…

The man who invented the Total Perspective Vortex did so basically in order to annoy his wife.
Trin Tragula — for that was his name — was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher or, as his wife would have it, an idiot. She would nag him incessantly about the utterly inordinate amount of time he spent staring out into space, or mulling over the mechanics of safety pins, or doing spectrographic analyses of pieces of fairy cake.
‘Have some sense of proportion!’ she would say, sometimes as often as thirty-eight times in a single day.
And so he built the Total Perspective Vortex, just to show her. Into one end he plugged the whole of reality as extrapolated from a piece of fairy cake, and into the other end he plugged his wife: so that when he turned it on she haw in one instant the whole infinity of creation and herself in relation to it.
To Trin Tragula’s horror, the shock completely annihilated her brain; but to his satisfaction he realized that he had proved conclusively that if life is going to exist in a Universe of this size, then the one thing it cannot have is a sense of proportion.

You’re not the only ones. . .“Pam, and her staff of unpaid baristas, want the LGBT neighborhood coffee house feel back.”
Plenty of blenders, including myself, want the same thing. Are we going to tear down this coffee house from within? I hope not.

yeeshBugland just pointed out some facts, that’s hardly hostile, unless your aim is derailing  http://www.derailingfordummies…
nor did they claim their experience was universal, but then, that’s always a good derailing point anyway:
http://www.derailingfordummies…

interestingly enough……the line about “not antagonizing allies” is one i’ve heard in a lot of different places- from pretty much anyone who is offended at being accused of privilege, in fact. that is what privilege is: a lack of awareness of another person’s position, simply because such awareness hasn’t been necessary thus far.
if i say or do something that sets off all somebody’s alarms because they’re very used to similar words or actions being followed be active harm, focusing the conversation on my hurt feelings is also an exercise of privilege. i will say that while turning my reaction off for a moment so i can try to figure out what’s going on with them might make me feel uncomfortable, my discomfort is not more important than their rage over being abused- even if they’re wrong about my intentions. if i made it all about me and my hurt feelings, i WOULD be exercising my privilege, and that’s exactly what’s going on here. instead of discussing what Avarosis originally said about transpeople, we’re talking about how very hurtful it is that a cis guy might be accused of having privilege. again: a cis guy’s hurt feelings over being called, um, “cis”, and told that maybe he doesn’t understand everything right off the bat, is soooooooooooooo much more important than transpeople being denied work and medical care and human dignity.
i’m sorry if you don’t want to hear it, but this is privilege.
this, which i was responding to above, is also privilege: http://www.pamshouseblend.com/…
telling a whole group of people that they need to be quiet and behave themselves or they won’t be worthy of basic consideration- that is privilege.
and FWIW, i am not an ally to anyone because it makes me feel good, and i want them to spread the word about how NICE i am. i am not an ally because they have proved themselves worthy by tiptoeing around my precious feelings. i am an ally because it is the right thing to do and i would not be able to live with myself otherwise.

Liz does have a point. . .but my counterpoint is as such: Tolerance should never, ever be extended to the intolerant. The “wingnuts” are seeking to oppress, they do not deserve tolerance for tolerance of them will perpetuate the oppression.

like this?http://www.pamshouseblend.com/…

Pure Aristophanes!Or maybe even Beckett!

What is important, we ask?It couldn’t be more clear:

We believe in the inherent human dignity of all people.

DIGNITY AND EQUALITY. Every lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender person has inherent dignity and worth, and has the right to live free of discrimination and harassment.

While we are at it:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I assume these principles and truths are familiar to us all? (Dallas Principles, Declaration of Independence?)
The whole process of who’s privileged and how really revolves around the abnegation of the dignity of others.
So don’t.
Lemme know when the whole world gets around to doing this…

Oh, boyYou’d think we would have learned from Watergate!
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/…
Autumn, I believe it was an honest mistake. Both you and Kynn have done wrong in this situation, IMO. Please don’t let this continue.

I see your reasoningI really see it, but it’s not good.
If we move along with it, then how long will it take to go back for the gender identity? Because when it goes back for gender identity, the driving force of L, G, and B in LGBT will be sorely lacking.
None of our voices alone will get anything done. It takes all of us. The T in GLBT works just as hard to get this all done. T money, time, and energy is being used to get this passed. Without them we wouldn’t be at this point.  

AndI’d also like to address the elephant in the room by asking this question; when it is in inordinately large part religion that seeks to oppress LGBT people, are we to be respectful and nice toward religion in an LGBT coffeehouse? I mean I certainly would not go marching into a Baptist church screaming things like “God hates Baptists,” but this is OUR church in a sense. This is where I come when I need sustenance. This IS my community. Shit, lets call a spade a spade. If it is exceptable in American society to call LGBTs things like pedophiles, the I’ll be damned if I’m giving up my right to free speech by being nice to the “wingnuts” in my own space.
And to clarify for those who are religious, my question is not intended to imply that all religious people or all religious sects are oppressive. But it would be hard to deny that the overwhelming majority of the oppression comes from religion. I have yet to meet an atheist who “hates fags” or seeks to oppress them.

I know one atheist

“The president should be squirming in his seat. Not smiling,” he said. “The black dyke got it wrong. No one told her the rules.”

Granted Christopher Hitchens was drunk when he said it.

OK ThenKim, you should know there is no such thing as a “comfy chair” in trans activism. At least I have never met anyone who has had one.
How would I have handled things differently? I would have asked the posters questioning the word “cis” to listen to what was being said to them and/or pointed to one of the many trans 101 topics already written. Since Autumn didn’t pop in until things had already become a discussion of “cis” (no issue there, folks have lives and nobody can be expected to watch a topic THAT closely).
If that failed, I would have asked and then enforced an end to a useless derail. This would have been been with the invitation for anyone who had genuine questions to send me a PM/email. There would have been a brief explanation that discussing “cis” happens all the time when a trans person tries to have a conversation about their specific oppression and all it does is take away form the initial topic.  

Er?I’m sorry, but this looks a whole lot like publicly outing someone as transgendered and linking to their identity, name, professional life and rough location?
I understand you wanted to ‘prove’ your case here, but doing so in this way breaches your own rules.

WRONGInclusive ENDA will pass eventually. Maybe not this year, maybe not next, but it will pass within a decade. I can wait for ENDA protections until it can be passed inclusively. I will not throw even the smallest minority to the back of the line while I enjoy my new privilege with the rest of society.
Ojrocks hypotesizes correctly, IMO, that if the T’s get left behind it will be a very long time and cold day in hell before they are added. I won’t to do that to them.
Additionally, we have survived this long without any ENDA and I think we can survive a little while longer until the votes are their for all of us. And BTW, I am not speaking hypothetically here, my husband, Nick, was fired 5 years ago from his job of 20 years because his new boss was a f**cking homophobe. So I am speaking from a position of experience.

And. . .Leaving the T out of ENDA is same damn thing as the straight democrats who complain that we should wait while their other “more important” issues are taken care of first.

So just so I undersandan ally can never tell the oppressed group anything?
Extreme example, a car filled with LGBT individuals and one ally is heading towards a cliff. The LGBT individuals don’t see the sign, but the ally does. Is it ok if the ally in this case suggests they turn the car around or stop the car? Or should that person with privilege keep their mouth shut.
 

maybe you should understand what the diaries are first, since you don’t seem to understand. There are front page stories, like this one, but PHB also has diary pages, created by people other than Pam, or the baristas. These diaries cover a wide range of other issues and allow people to talk about other issues, without interrupting or “derailing” threads about other subjects.
For example if we want to talk about Sarah Palin, we want to talk about Sarah Palin, not get a lecture about cis privilege. Start a diary and talk about it there.

TouchéI like this guy; kevinchi. If I weren’t already married. . .

Your opinion is as valid as mineand that’s just it – they are opinions. At least we can express them with courtesy and respect.

This isn’t a post about palin…Its a post about the ongoing transfail here at Pams blog; so comments will be about that topic; that’s not derailing, that’s on topic.

Looks a whole lot like?It is publicly outing someone as trans and linking things that they have not themselves disclosed in this forum. And its been done twice. It’s a cheap stunt. If Pam had some problem with Caiomhe’s conduct here, then all she had to do was nuke the account.
This was grudgewank of the worst kind; the kind that could endanger someone. Bad, bad form.

congratulations, more derailing!i’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you really don’t understand the definiton of privilege. so:
one aspect of privilege is assuming that you know more about another person’s situation than they do, even if that situation in particular is precisely where their experience differs from yours.
i have a hard time seeing how the concept of privilege could possibly apply to a car full of people are going off a cliff. it does, however, clearly apply in a situation where a supposed trans-ally is telling the people he’s supposedly allied with that if they don’t start being nicer to people like him, they don’t deserve any allies at all.

agreedas TR said, this has become grudgewank; and their cis-privledge is showing.  A whole lot of apologies should be going out to transfolk
>:(

Always open to seeing it another way. . .I reread your comment about an apology not changing anything and I can see it your way as well (which is a problem of mine – for some reason I have enough empathy to see another side which is frustrating cuz it sometimes prevents me from making a decision). However, I do think that we are both right. Here’s why: if Autumn issues an apology for the way this was handled (fault ot not) and the finger pointing and back stabbing continues, then the justification for blocking a poster becomes obvious, at least to me. But while some posters have taken the side of Kynn (and remember I do not know who is right or wrong), a blocking would only serve to alienate them. An apology would give Kynn a chance to gracefully accept, join in the ending of this tyrade, and move on to getting back to the purpose of this blog – if she chooses not to, then bye bye and the rest of us can move on. I hope I explained this right.  

Oh no don’t goYou are valued here Kim.

Sounds perfect to me!

Againif I weren’t already married. . .

yesyes you are

?What is trans privilege?

(sigh!)The good ones are always taken.

oh, please, tell me about trans privilegetell me the advantages it gives trans people over cis people. tell me how it smooths their way in everyday life. tell me how trans people just don’t have to worry in a given venue that someone will tell them to, hmm i don’t know, “shut up”.
while you’re at it, tell me how the anger and frustration of black people oppresses white people.
tell me how disabled people oppresses able-bodied people.
tell me how gay people oppress straight people.
tell me how your umbrage at people getting (god forbid) emotional outweighs all the crap that made them get emotional to begin with. tell me how this all magically began when you felt you were being told to “butt out”, and not when a white gay man told trans people they didn’t belong in “his” civil rights movement- or, for that matter, when you told a whole group of people to “shut up and own their shit”.
you really don’t see how being told to shut up, AGAIN, in this situation, might be less than helpful?
this is NOT ABOUT YOUR ADVOCACY. this is NOT ABOUT YOUR VALUE. and it is because of your privilege that you can’t see why.

Saw all,and thanks. I’ll respond privately tomorrow.

BecauseYou treat people the way you expect to be treated. If they oppress you the best way to make them look bad is to be nice to them.
Kill them with kindness,
It works.  

PrioritiesHOw about getting our house in order?
How about getting everyone to stop disrespecting each other — and, in particular, those who dislike their privilege begin called out being told to get over it and deal so that transfolk can join the discussion?
OH, of course.
That’s a wonderful piece of avoidance, a misdirection, and I do indeed know a bit about its formation.
Big picture?  Autumn, in my big picture, we are all less than the specs of sand on a beach, since my big picture tends to incorporate the universe.
Your big picture seems to be more about deflecting things fro your action and your need to apologize regardless of the outcome.
The personal is political, Autumn.
Now since you’ve set up a wonderful and avoidant framing, of course I will be challenged n my not giving a damn about any of thse things.
Fine. Go ahead.  I can hold my own and then some, and most people here know it, so I don’t particularly worry about such things.
This was, however, the last straw for me.  In what way I will make known, but I still kept hoping against hope that you’d stop being so fucking defensive and get on with apologizing so the thing will end.
A week isn’t long enough.  You underestimate how pissed people are and how far this has gone. Slap down the chains, it will just make it worse yet again. You do not get anymore chances, and you’ve struck out.
Right now, to be perfectly blunt, your first priority is still you.
I could tell you why and what and all that, but you’ll never see it, glancing over my posts.
Damn I am disappointed in you.
I’ve got my basket.  But I’ll be back.

how charming"The most difficult thing about this conversation is that I keep thinking I'm having a conversation with people and I am continually being reminded that I'm having a conversation with transgender people." i assume that these people for whom you're such a wonderful advocate- they don't include anyone who might read what you just said?

someone please deletethis post!
thanks

if you read back through the commentsyou might find that we are all discussing the topic of this particular thread.
i’m sorry that you feel that trans issues are intrinsically derailing, but i hope you realize that if you refuse to address them when they come up, you have no right to claim the allegiance of the people you blew off when one of your pet projects comes around again.

oh heck, responded to wrong post:-p

“Really, I could end much of this in one post if I wanted to….”How much of this?
Why don’t you?

Aren’t transgender people also people too?Odd phrasing.
–Kynn

I hear.I want to obey.
But…well, if it’s unbearble this week, come back for Civility Day on July 10th. We will begin the reset process then.
And John, I drink virtual hammerheads. Love to know what your virtual drink on the tenth will be when you shuffle up to the counter.

Not trying to be antagonostic here but. . .Exactly how do we kill them with kindness? The “them” being the wingnuts. If you have a viable plan, I’d be happy to adopt it. But I just don’t see it. Our enemy is not willing to meet with us and they never fail to lie and cheat. How on earth will we ever kill them with kindness?
An example, my new “sister-in-law” who is a fundie, when told by Nick that we got married last week said, “Oh,” and promptly changed the subject. That’s all she could say after Nick rescued her from an abusive home as a teenager and then payed for her college education, and not just any college -she went to Pepperdine (the one where Prop 8 defending lawyer Ken Starr is a dean). Then when she moved out after college, she called Nick and said he couldn’t be in her life anymore because her church told her to disassociate from her gay brother. I tried my damndest at first to be nice to her, but she has done nothing but attack me with passive aggression.

Already done, Pollyannaor at least I’ve done everything that I can do now.
I just don’t wanted to be accused of stirring the sh!t even further. I just want to see right made right. I don’t want to harm others.

I am so lost and confused by this ‘cis’ discussionI took a few days off from the world and came back to a Blend that I really don’t recognize.  Hopefully all will return to a friendly yet lively coffee house soon.
I just stumbled onto this post and had absolutly no idea what the argument has been all about. I readily admit that before today I have never heard of the term ‘cis’ as it relates to gender and sexuality identification.  I consider myself very well read but this one is new for me. So I looked up the term under several dictionaries and other sources. Since this term first came into being just in 1994, it seems that the word has not settled into its own and as such much confusion can occur when the term is used.  
We all should be able to express our honest opinions or misunderstandings if done so in a respectful way.  
Having said all that, I fully respect any and all Blenders here and hope all of the useful debates and discussions may continue.  
Thank you Autumn for refocusing the priorities or certainly the direction we should all be taking here. Namely, let’s not get in fist fights over a relatively newly minted term when we have much bigger fish to fry.  

I don’t get it. . .What is wrong with how Kim said that or how she phrased that? Hell the woman is a transgender ally and defender. This makes me think that you are speaking from a firey rage whose smoke is obscuring your own sight.

I thought that…“I keep thinking I’m having a conversation with people and I am continually being reminded that I’m having a conversation with….”
“… transgender people.”
“… black people”
“… gay people”
“… THOSE OTHER people”
She may consider herself an ally… heck, she may do great work for the community (I haven’t looked into it), but judging from her words/behaviour here, she has a lot to learn about being respectful.  If I was in a similar position (and I have been on other issues) I’d appreciate being called on what my privilege was blinding me to, and try harder, rather than derailing or giving a flippant, flouncing, “whatever”.

John, stop and think for a momentyou’re trying to reason with a duplicitous troll who has been banned (at least) twice and has found a way to return once more however briefly. Call me ableist if you must, but it’s looking like this person has real mental health issues, or the maturity of a 12-year-old, or both.
Let it go.  

and yet……the vast majority of your other responses on this thread have been to posts taking issue with Pam, Autumn, and the argument that we should all just shut up because “cis” is a mean, mean word.
and you wonder why someone might think that this particular command that we “shut up” might be directed toward transpeople? when it sounds exactly like everything else you’ve said in this thread that unmistakeably WAS directed toward transpeople?

How then?How can you have a conversation about people without using terms to identify the specific group you are talking about? Just as in a court of law intent matters. Maybe I’m missing something here because of my inexperience with transgender issues, but I sincerely believe Kim’s intent is in the right place.

I suspect you are rightand I’ve gotten myself all tied up in this argument. I’ll say this one last thing and then I’m closing the lid on this laptop, snuggling up with my puppy and watching CNN’s Michael Jackson special as I drift off to Neverland.
We must all remember that we have more enenies than allies and seeking to tear down any one of our allies does harm to us all. We must always ask ourselves whether or not an ally intended to be offensive or dismissive, and err on the side of no they did not.
Good night.

o rlyso you don’t make assumptions about anyone here at the blend? and therefore, anyone who understands your comments to be directed toward a given group of people is just full of shit?
why do you assume that i am trans?
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/…
you talk about my “trans privilege”. you know even less about me than i do about you.
really, now, do you expect me to believe that you’re incapable of unwonted assumptions?

what the helli am so computer illiterate. moves post
sigh

trying again…so you don’t make assumptions about anyone here at the blend? and therefore, anyone who understands your comments to be directed toward a given group of people is just full of shit?
why do you assume that i am trans?
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/…
you talk about my “trans privilege”. you know even less about me than i do about you.
really, now, do you expect me to believe that you’re incapable of unwonted assumptions?

AndI should also state that we do have enemies posing as allies so exposing them is obviously necessary. However, I think it is obvious that Kim is not one of those – Senator Joe Lieberman, on the hand, is a modern day Jim Crow promoting his seperate but equal civil unions while pretending he is one of our fiercest advocates.
Good Night.
No really – I mean it this time.

you assumed that i was transyou seem to assume a lot of things. i suppose i ought to take your word that you don’t make assumptions and act on them over the fact that… well, you obviously did?

One point.Simple, direct, and unequivocal:
Kim is closer to trans in her outlook and understanding than she is to cis.
When reading her, do not read her as an “ally”, read her as “trans”.
That is, these are, basically, comments from a transperson who is, ultimately, more aware of the concepts involved than many transfolk are, and is trying to act as a mediation point in order to defuse something she perceives to be detrimental to the work she is doing for trans children.
I am not saying this as a friend of hers — indeed, I suspect that by the 10th she may consider me anything but that.
I am not saying this to defend her — she is capable of doing so herself.
I am saying this as someone who sees a distinct flaw in the commentary directed at her, and multiple misunderstandings after having beat the woman myself about the head and shoulders verbally on several occasions.
I am close to a great many social service organizations supporitng the trans community.  IF I had to choose only one, and just one, to support or still retain, it would be hers.
I realize my commentary has no weight with most people.  So in the end this is likely a waste of time.
But personally, I think Autumn should be the main target of ire for the inherent and utter dehumanization that the above post supplies to trans folk after two previously failed attempts.
Outside of that, at this point, I don’t give a flying fuck.

I am in the same boat you are in.  I have been gone for a few and came back and things are a mess.  

notedunfortunately, all many of us know of each other right now is what we’ve posted in this thread. i’ve been lurking here for what seems like ages, and i have no idea who Kim is or where she’s coming from. all i know is that almost everything she’s said REEKS of cis privilege (although that may actually be the aroma coming off the Blend itself). apparently, everything i’ve said reeks of trans privilege, whatever that is. she feels she needs to address my apparent trans privilege; i’m addressing her apparent cis privilege.
i do, however, agree that Kim didn’t cause this problem.

“Holding ENDA hostage” is an emotive and misleading argument

If adding “gender identity” causes ENDA to fail to get a majority of votes, but removing it causes it to pass, then I agree with Barney Frank and HRC to move forward with a sexual orientation ENDA that protects millions of people.

We don’t even know if it was true the last time – we just know that given even a slender excuse to drop T from ENDA, Barney Frank and HRC looked for the speeding bus.

People really, really need to get over this aspect of ENDA. Civil rights come incrementally.
Hopefully the votes for gender identity are there this time. But if the votes for gender identity just aren’t there, then we cannot hold ENDA hostage.

First of all, incremental gains are bullshit. You’re talking about stuff like getting civil unions recognized before getting marriage, not about cutting an entire segment of the population out of civil rights legislation so that you can get yours. And it’s easy for you to bargain someone else’s rights away because it costs you nothing.
How do you feel about waiting on DADT and DOMA repeals? I mean, if you can only get DADT in six months and DOMA in two years. Is that acceptable?

in the interest of saving time and energy, I will be utterly rudeJJ, go fuck yourself.
Yes, I really did just say that, and yes, I really did just mean that.
Because you cannot protect millions of gay people without including the T.
Period.
However, I will tell you what: Since I know that I can get rights for me easier than I can rights for you, I will draft legislation that specifically excludes cis gay people who have made statements such as that.
Now, I would much rather be working on rights for everyone, but that’s because I know that the only way to do it otherwise is to specifically exclude someone with intent and will, which will involve some aspect of bigotry.
So, now that we know you are a hypocrite, a bigot, and sexist, please, do enjoy the self gratification I am encouraging you to engage in.
Have a day that reeks of discrimination and abuse.
Please, heap the abuse on me now, all, for my lack of decorum and good manners

yes, that is exactly what i thought you were sayingyou are using the language of cis privilege. you say the things that a cis person would say, arguing from the position of their privilege, with the intention of silencing trans people. this language is not unique to the cis/trans issue. i have seen it used with great consistency regarding race, sexual preference and other divisive issues. the same words, phrases and metaphors are used over and over, right down to saying that you “don’t know who is L or G or B or T or black or green or orange. I just see people.” do you have any idea how many times i have seen people, arguing from a position of power, use PRECISELY THAT PHRASE? this isn’t just typical; it’s a friggin’ cliche.
you say you’re an advocate for trans people. how is it, then, that you have NO IDEA how your words might affect said trans people? this is the internet. all we have is words. if the impression you give really has nothing to do with your actual position, maybe you should try some different words. maybe the problem is not the sensitivity of the people you’re talking to so much as the fact that you’re saying PRECISELY THE SAME DAMN THING THAT THEY HEAR EVERYWHERE ELSE.
do you really believe that trans people are marginalizing cis people, in this thread, on the Blend right now? do you really believe that cis people are being silenced in this discussion? do you really believe that cis people feel threatened and unsafe because of this? what would they be afraid of- that they might be outed as being cis? that they might be banned from commenting, or made unwelcome in their community, or thrown off ENDA- just to begin with- for being cis? do you REALLY THINK, as the advocate you say you are, that the cis perspective and trans perspective are absolutely equivalent in this situation?

AdditionallyI would be willing to provide something apparently rarely seen here, which is a full apology for the previous rude comment if JJ will do likewise for his.

No abuse from me.Just applause.

Okay, that’s fair.I’m sorry I made an assumption about who you were addressing with your comment. Given the tone of things around here recently, I think it’s understandable.
I think you’ve done a lot of excellent work, and I hope you continue to do excellent work. I’m not saying anything because I hate you or I think you’re a terrible person. I don’t think you hate trans people, that you’re transphobic at all, but I think you’ve gone on to say some transphobic things.
But, you know, as a white woman, I know I’ve said some racist things, and as a temporarily able-bodied woman I’ve said some ableist things. And I’m pretty sure I’ve said things that came from internalized transphobia and sexism.
But it’s kind of demeaning when you’re talking about tolerance to invoke strangely colored people to make your point. Especially check out this video on the subject.
While I’m linking to an anti-racist blog to make this point, I am not actually commenting on how you view anyone of any race.
Also, trans privilege doesn’t exist. That’s the semantic equivalent of claiming that “reverse sexism” exists. There isn’t any trans privilege here. Trans people do have privilege (I have white privilege, and some class privilege, and some temporarily able-bodied privilege, so it’s not as if I think privilege is a bad thing). But being trans does our privilege no favors (also see: intersectionality and kyriarchy). Someone back in the 90s said that being trans is discreditable. What she meant by that is that being trans means that most cis people will see you as a liar. My co-blogger Queen Emily has a post about this on Feministe.
But you know how reverse sexism is a silencing tactic used to divert examination of male privilege and sexism? By characterizing any critique of male privilege as another kind of sexism? Characterizing trans people disagreeing with you as trans privilege is pretty much the same thing. It’s not that your voice isn’t heard – believe me, it is – it’s that you’ve said some pretty minimizing things about trans people in this thread (such as “I thought I was talking to people”, and “I don’t know who is L or G or B or T or black or green or orange. I just see people.” But I frequently find that when dealing with conversations about privilege, that people with privilege tend to exaggerate (whether they mean to or not, and I’m sure you don’t) when they see the focus is on people like them, who don’t have a particular privilege. In my personal experience, many cis people frequently try to change the subject in trans-focused conversations to be about cis people, occasionally, they want the conversation to be about them specifically. Anyway, people have a variety of tactics to derail conversations so a particular oppression and the people who experience it are no longer the topic.
“I just see people” is another minimizing tactic. It elides the fact that people have different experiences because of skin color, gender, economic class, whether you’re able-bodied or you’re a person with disability, whether you’re trans, whether you’re gay, lesbian or bisexual. All of these things impact our lives, and it’s not actually a matter of respect to pretend they don’t exist, or that it’s better to only see people. Trying to only see people makes it harder to see all the ways in which systemic, institutionalized, and personal privilege and oppression play out. I’m not trying to say that this is what you’re doing – on the contrary, I think you had the best of intentions when you said that, but it carries a meaning that’s kind of a red flag.
Anyway, I hope you’re doing well. And I really want you to understand that I believe you have good intentions. I’m not trying to talk about what you think, but rather how what you’re saying is coming across.

SimpleIf the information wasn’t linked here, then the information since it concerns the identity of a transperson vis-a-vis their “new” name ought not be publicized here. Period.

did you not readwhat was said before?
I was referencing the earlier discussion on the Palin thread as an example.
And trying to point out that a suggestion was made that a much more in dept conversation about these issues could be had in one of the diaries as was suggested. The person making the suggestion was questioned and I was trying to clarify a point.
Maybe read the whole conversation and not pick items out to respond too.  

WOW!way to put words in my mouth! Maybe read what I wrote and my response to alang.

This Keeva/Kynn/Coa??? person is certainly not trying to hide their identity The simplest of web searches finds a page where they publicly posted all that information for all the world to see, along with hundreds of posts and self decriptions which included information that only they could have supplied to the web site.
Now, given this individuals demonstrated habit of pretending to be someone else, it is quite possible that they also made up all of the personal information.  
But when someone posts a detailed profile in a public space on the internet it comes with the understanding that it is the electronic equivilant of buying space on a billboard on a highway, or an ad on television.
There can be no claim of anonymity in such a circumstance.  And not “outing”.  
Pam’s post was not how I learned this, gee golly, I typed two words into my browser and up came all her information.  

HC, Thanks for the validation as I now don’t feel so alone

Moderatorial philosophyI’m a moderator at a large RPG board.  Often, it’s not about who through the first snowball, it’s who decided to respond with the snowball by grabbing a chunk of sluch and wrapping it in snow and then throwing iceballs.

“In this setting”This is not how privilege works.  Privilege is conferred by the ideologies and institutions in a society.  That privilege comes into the room whenever people of a minority meet people of a majority.  Any “privilege” someone of a minority might have in that small controlled setting is negligible compared to the overwhelming pattern of privilege conveyed by the structure of language, the laws, the religions, the practices of the society to which they belong.
To claim that someone of a minority has privilege in terms of setting the ethical tone of a conversation in a safe space — IOW basically the “right” to call out someone for their privilege (and then according to myth the majority member “can’t speak back” — but I call this a myth because they can always do so, and always do) is a derailing tactic used by people of a majority who feel threatened by the assertion of majority privilege.  It’s a way to try to throw the calling-out back into the face of whatever minority member did the calling out.  It’s a way to try to make the enforcement of privilege morally equivalent to the act of calling someone out.  
But even if you assert that there can be teeny small degrees of privilege for one group of people in an internet forum, an argument which would be antithetical to the process of debunking and unpacking privilege, I don’t see any way anyone can claim that in THIS forum, in THIS discussion, that the trans*folks have any privilege at all.

What About Kim I saw you gave difinitions on there of the things the fellow asked for but you left out “Transexual” or were you like so many others trying to squash it in with transgender ? Well please don’t as their two differance groups of gender vareant people.
Transexuals are a medical diagnosis group having GID that can’t be said of transgender who are comprised of cders,drag queens and non-op = She**** (sorry but they Furrer told me I couldn’t say the last word on here.)These people in MY OPINION are merely enjoying a fantasy.
The two terms have been misused by everyone for so long now it’s hard for anyone to make sense of them. I known I’m going to piss a lot of peeps off here, but please understand that these’s are my opinions and while I’m sure you have opinions of your own and that’s fine, I do not have any simpathy for most of you as you make living in society hard on yourselves by not wanting or not having surgery and still expecting society to accept you as the gender you wish to live in…..Like the Whole Country is going to create a third gender on every form and document in every Courthouse, Outhouse and Business in the country simple because you can’t have (medically) surgery or can’t afford surgery or do not want to have surgery …..that’s NOT likely to EVER happen! agree with me or not it’s the truth and you known it. You are swiming upstream are following a useless persuit and chansing a fools errand to think it will ever be any differant.
Sincerely
Brandi Parker

I think you misunderstoodThere are differences of opinion within the trans community and you seem to disregard the possibility that statements from outside allies may be consistent with those expressed by people within the trans community.  Based on your statements, you as an ally seem to be waving your privilege around to accuse others of doing the same.  Like you, I’m not an ally to be nice or to be seen as nice or liberal or open minded and I have never told anyone in the trans community how to fight their battles.  My comments here were to point out that there are differences of opinion within and without and that people seem to be engaging in a pissing match to gain power by reading way too much into words regardless of intent/context and, in some cases, weaponizing words to put others down in a self-aggrandizing manner.  It is self defeating and counter productive.  

o i cone must check their cognitive skills at the door to agree with you 100% (90% isn’t enough) or one is derailing the conversation?   I guess you believe that Groupthink always works out for the best. . . .

Explain your math, coherently please

You’re talking about stuff like getting civil unions recognized before getting marriage, not about cutting an entire segment of the population out of civil rights legislation so that you can get yours

Who’s cutting out an entire segment?  The votes were not there for gender identity inclusion, so if ENDA was killed, there would still be no gender identity protection because there would be no bill.
Are you able to coherently explain how protecting NOBODY is better passing unprecedented, landmark federal legislation than protects millions of gays and lesbians, some of whom are also trans folk?
Please show us your math on that one.

How do you feel about waiting on DADT and DOMA repeals? I mean, if you can only get DADT in six months and DOMA in two years. Is that acceptable?

I want those repealed as soon as the votes are there to repeal. If 6 months and 2 years, are the best we can do, then so be it. What kind of a silly question is that?

There have been a lot of name calling and harrassments on these pages, and it is your blog Pam, but all I have to say is it has been great theater! Not productive, but at times entertaining.

Don’t you love the irony?All this prattle about who has privilege sounds a bit like cisphobia, doesn’t it?  There’s no high ground for people who can’t just treat other people with respect, no matter which side they are on, sorry.  It just ends up sounding like sour grapes.

the trouble with the internet is that nothing can really be unsaidso you never said that people here have “trans privilege”?
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/…
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/…
hmm.
perhaps it would help if you actually explained what “trans privilege” is supposed to be. how, exactly, do trans people have an institutionalized advantage over cis people?  

See earlier suggestion for soothing yourselfAnd double it, please.

Please rephraseInto a manner that is far less insulting and prejudiced.
I don’t particularly mind the tone, it is the inherent bigotry and sexism involved that I object to.

More accuratelyThe concept in need of discussion is privilege itself.
We have had several posts on what cis/trans is and such, and the variations involved (I’ve written a considerable number of them, including diaries to that effect), but the real issue is privilege, which lies in and aorund the actual conversations, which are really multiple throughout the threads:
1 – Privilege (at this point and in this place, best include with a discussion of intersectionality)
2 – Autumn’s behavior
3 – Pam’s behavior
4 – Moderation (avoidance)
5 – Equity
6 – “priorities” (avoidance)
7 – cats (misdirection)
8 – cis/trans definition and history
etc.
All mixed into a a single bag that is routinely shaken so that they all stay combined and slushed together in ways they shouldn’t be, removing the ability to discuss them clearly and effectively.
Privilege, as a subject, tends to create an inherently defensive posture among the privileged, since many people think that it is a negative thing, akin to racism or prejudice, and personalize it (hence the weaponizing sense, despite it being, fundamentally, an impersonal concept).
It isn’t such.  To make comparisons of it to racism, sexism, and such are immediately in error, but since it it is rooted in institutionalized and linguisitc forms, people leap to conclusions that they can’t possibly be doing that because they themselves are not so (and they firmly state such).
Yet privilege is how one identifies that one is not so. And, by its nature, privilege is invisible to the privileged until they are “shocked” into seeing it, as only something shocking can truly awaken them to its absence.

You’re hurting the trans movement

Because you cannot protect millions of gay people without including the T.
Period.

Sure you can. The ENDA, which was sexual orientation only, that passed the House in 2007/2008 and if then approved by the Senate and signed by the President would have protected millions of people.
I won’t address your other comments specifically, except to say that you know nothing about me.
I’ve been an activist since the late 1980′s. I’ve done the Out and Equal Conferences, facilitated diversity workshops, marched in the 1993 March on Washington and the 1994 International March on the United Nations in New York, the black-tie galas, staffed the booths, met with legislators here in Illinois, marched in pride parades, done volunteer work, got the coffee mugs, rainbow bracelets and all the other promotional clutter that you get when you do this stuff. I also served on the Board for an LGBT employee resource group for a Fortune 100 company for almost a decade– including working on gender transition guidelines for transgender employees when no other gay or TG/TS employee wanted anything to do with it.
So you know absolutely nothing about me.
The anger that you (and others) exhibit is precisely what’s hurting the TG/TS movement.  It is also indicative of a movement that is very immature, strategically. You’re used to getting your way through verbal insults, bullying and threats of picketing.
Fine. Go ahead. But understand one thing: This wasted effort doesn’t get you anymore “yes” votes on ENDA and it alienates people who would otherwise be your ally– like me.
You build coalitions with others by working with them and compromise when you have to, not by telling them that it’s going to be your way and to hell with anyone who disagrees.
Times have changed. It’s 2009. The Queer Nation mindset doesn’t work anymore.
Back to ENDA: Killing federal civil rights legislation when you have the votes to protect millions of people is unheard of, and the backlash against trans folk by gays and lesbians will be measured on the Richter scale, if ENDA were actually killed. The trans movement will be set back for years.
The all-or-nothing mindset demonstrates an unbelievable lack of understanding of how legislation is passed in Washington. It’s actually quite sad.
I hold the loons over at NGLTF (and other like-minded national non-profits) along with the nutcase activists in San Francisco and New York responsible for this. They’ve set unrealistic expectations on how legislation is passed in Congress. Furthermore, they know absolutely nothing about what it’s like to grow up in the rural Midwest or Bible-belt South.
Politics means compromise. Welcome to Washington.
I absolutely support a tran-inclusive ENDA, but if the votes aren’t there, then we move forward with the original version of ENDA– a sexual orientation only version that protects millions of people. We circle back and keep trying to add gender identity in successive legislative sessions. You’re not going to be forgotten!
If that strategy upsets you, well then, that’s your problem.

i agree, this is the most entertainment I’ve seen on this site, but it’s pointlessThe drama in these posts has been over the top, and makes for intriguing reading even though I have no interest in debating “cis” issues and feel the entire affair is an example of identity politics gone haywire.
I’m more surprised that Pam has allowed her site to be hijacked like this shortly after being mentioned in the Advocate as one of the top blogs.  

i did, thank youAutumn Sandeen made this latest post in a long series dealing with this particular issue. therefore people are discussing that issue in this post. how is our discussion in any way derailing?  

YesMy problem.
What’s your problem is that I am not a pleasant, Queer nation sort of person.
I am a fucking bitch, and when people lie, as you have done, and make excuses, it makes me their problem.
You see, in say that “sure you can”, you immediately discount the lives of millions of gay people as unimportant.
And it is my job to make sure that you are aware of that.
So, please, continue to use that incrementalist, light skinned before dark skinned, Mattachinist approach to things that has, consistently, failed, with still present examples which demonstrate unequivocally that you are not only wrong, but actively defending a principle which is sexist and discriminatory and, in the end (which I am tempted to force you to see, but have better things to do at this moment) transphobic.
Because all it does is establish what I already established:
You are a sexist bigot.
And you really do need to go fuck yourself.
Again, do have a day filled with discrimination and anguish.

2/5 of gays and lesbians not protected in a T-excluding ENDAIf ENDA had become law without including protections for gender identity and gender presentation, 37% of gays and lesbians would still be vulnerable to employment discrimination.  In fact, lawyers were already preparing to make the argument, “We weren’t discriminating against his sexual orientation — we were discriminating against his gender presentation,” an argument that would have been perfectly successful in most parts of the country even AFTER a T-excluding ENDA becomes law (Darwin forbid).
A T-excluding ENDA could also possibly have rolled back T-inclusive non-discrimination law in the few places it had passed.

the trans*folk of NY are still waiting for the cis-GLBs to circle backTo get SONDA passed in New York in 2002, the GLB community of New York threw trans*folk under the bus.  To shut us up, they promised to circle back and help us pass GENDA.
In 2009, GENDA still languishes, while the cis-GLB community is putting all its energy into marriage equality.
That’s what “circling back” looks like.  It’s a lie.

i don’t know whether you’re gay, bisexual, transexual, straight or something else entirely…as there are straight people here. so i’m wondering: if you are gay, do you enjoy it when a straight person tells you how you should deal with homophobia at the very moment that you are struggling with straight privilege?
if you’re are not white, do you enjoy it when a white person tells you how you should handle a given racist incident?
…and so forth.
my point is that there are times to play devils advocate, and times when it might not be such a good idea. using essentially the same language as people who are being actively oppressive does NOT communicate an attempt to relieve oppression. unfortunately, it sounds like just the opposite. part of being an ally is listening to what the people you’re allied with and accepting what they tell you they’re experiencing instead of telling them what they ought to be thinking and doing, because no amount of good intentions can erase privilege. no matter how hard i fight against racism, i’m still going to be white in a racist society.
for the record, when i called myself an “ally”, i was not referring to trans issues; i was thinking of racism and neurodiversity, specifically, although there’s no way anyone could have known that. no one knows my personal experience here, because no one has asked. if someone does ask, i will tell them, to the extent that it does not jeopardize my safety.
i really don’t think most people involved in this are engaged in a “pissing match to gain power”. what power is there to be gained here? the only power in play in the Blend ATM belongs to Pam and the baristas, who have, not incidentally, come down squarely on the side of cis privilege. it’s not as if people who disagree with them can take command of the Blend and decide who posts where. that’s a major part of the conflict, for heaven’s sake.

oh helli don’t know why i can’t put my responses in the right place
anyway, if you want it, it’s down here.
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/…

that’s a good pointi wasn’t aware i was doing that.
my personal position is very awkward. i have cis privilege in certain situations, and don’t have it in others. my partner has transitioned and has no cis privilege whatsoever anymore. i also tend to use the term “we” when referring to his issues because they are so closely intertwined with mine.
i’m not sure how i can accurately represent myself here, but i should have been aware of the pronouns i was using. thanks for letting me know.

thank youYa know, I’m rather surprised no one has asked why I’m not really expressing what I really want to say to jj.

one further thingTo say that I am hurting the trans movement when I am expressing what the trans movement is already aware of further demonstrates your sexism and bigotry.
As well as your own utter and total ignorance.

It’s Not Bigotry Just Realism’s……….and dyssonance if you can’t see the difference then you’ll never be successful in society…….The WHOLE purpose behind transition from the beginning with was to give those who’s brain did not match their natal bodies a way to BLEND back into and function in society, you and many other would twist that and use the resources of transition specialist ie: Doctors,Surgeons,and Endocrinologist to make yourselves something totally and completely different you set yourselves apart by making yourselves different refusing to fit into society then you demand that the world and society to accept you and consider you as genuine as those who have completed transition and blended back into society fully…..Well your kidding yourselves and it’s never gonna happen.
Brandi Parker  

!@#$%^&*someone just pointed out that i have used the word “we” when referring to transpeople. i wasn’t aware that i did this, but it makes absolutely no sense to expect anyone to overlook something like that.
you’re right and i’m a moron.

don’t tryMy suggestion is not to try to understand by going over the whole very long and very contentious discussion-it’s all very disconcerting.  I agree with everything else you say.
Love,
Rick Cabral

Check your privilege, pleaseWhat would you say to trans*folk who still go through hormones and surgery and all of that and still don’t “BLEND back into” society?  We’d love for people to see us as we see ourselves.  It doesn’t always work out that way, and what do we do then?
But it is SOCIETY that doesn’t see us as we are.  SOCIETY very often doesn’t recognize transition as valid, SOCIETY silences us, SOCIETY says it is okay for hateful bullies to fire us from our jobs, evict us from our homes, beat, rape, and murder us — and here you are, blaming US for these facts.
Check your privilege.  Several links have been provided even on this page to help you do so.

Hi Pollyanna,

What do you hope to accomplish?

The stuff I’m writing about in these comments affects me in ways concretely related to my everyday life. Accomplish is too strong a word, but I am learning through the process of translating my perception into words, and by observing the eerie similarities between these dynamics here, and dynamics in areas where I am directly experiencing harm from others due to institutionalized power dynamics.

reappeared to participate in the “cis war.”

I came back to post at PHB during the discussion of the DOMA brief here, as my comment history shows. The DOMA brief got to me, while at the same time I am deeply alienated from the marriage equality movement and have been trying to understand why, for some time. The current discussions — which I would not refer to as the “cis war,” myself personally — are of great interest to me, and I am developing more clarity on why as I go along.

It is clear you have thought long and deeply about certain things and are able to express your thoughts at length. Why not create a diary so your opinions aren’t buried in these threads?

Pollyanna, this is a statement/question from that pretends to say one thing but is saying something else entirely. To respond directly, I would have to choose between responding as if you are saying what the words are (which is not true), or expend energy trying to translate the dissonance into cognitive understanding of what you are really saying, and respond to that (at which point you would likely deny what you are doing anyway, which would then turn into some exhausting exchange if I didn’t ignore it). So I’m not interested in doing either of those things.

I really recommend……Julia Serano’s book Whipping Girl (and related website). Both website and book are really informative — she framed the cissexual/cisgender conversation for trans community and beyond in that book, but relatively few outside the trans community have read the book or looked at her website.
And, it’s a theoretical model that Serano spells out. Sometimes models aren’t perfect in their first incarnation, and of course you can disagree with the conclusions the model — or disagree that the model is a true depiction of anything — But, Julia Serano’s book is the source material for learning about the cisgender/cissexual model, and her website explores the model further.
So, if you’re looking for the best source material on the subject John, that book — or even her website’ discussion of non-trans privileges — the book and the website literally the best place to start.
Beyond that, on the front page this morning I linked to a Non-Trans Privilege Checklist (or as I would term, it in this thread anyway, a Cissexual Privilege Checklist). It’s a place to actually view what issues that many trans people need to think about within their daily lives that non-trans people don’t have think about.
If you Google “Cissexual Privilege Checklist,” you can find other versions of this checklist; however. I linked to the Alas A Blog checklist because to me, that one looked to be one of the earliest versions of this kind of checklist, and well as being at least one of the most thorough.

when you have to argue for it

I own my cis privilege and I attempt to keep it in check

Plenty of people do think I’m an ally and a pretty damn good one at that, so….whatever.

IMO someone who is functioning as what is called an ally would not have to argue for it like this. Their actions would speak for themselves and their role in the dynamics would be obvious from their actions.

I think that comes from privilege, Kim

Want justice and equality for all people. Want it more than anything you want for yourself and it may be realized. In doing so good will come to you.

This relatively abstract “helping others” approach comes from a protected space of privilege IMO.
It’s like the “White Savior” types where I live “helping” migrants in the desert and positioning themselves at the center, using institutionalized power of definition to define the very act of struggling against systems of oppression as something that you do to help others. Because they are not the targets and yet they center themselves as the best and most human of all involved. In their story, they become the standard and template for what struggle against injustice is.
This kind of story would lead to scolding those who are targets for responding to direct violence and harm done to them by the system and its agents. Because that kind of struggle is not about justice and equality as abstractions. It’s about “this is my life” in concrete ways.

thanks :-/i feel like i should go back to every post i made on this particular subject and clarify that it was all my fault, but wouldn’t that be spamming?
the diary sounds like a good idea in that discussing my situation might be helpful (especially for me, since i hardly ever talk about it), but maybe now isn’t the right time.

I never Said any of thatSabrina you are trying to put words in my mouth I’m not blaming anyone for anything. My post was directed to those who Refuse to fit into society and yet expect to still be accepted its a two way street. I known some are beaten,killed,lose jobs and housing and while those things do happen and I detest them as much as everyone here does and yes there are those who go through transition completely and still don’t pass and for some they never will.but you must remember the purpose of transition isn’t to pass its to remove the gender dsyphoria one feels so one can live body and brain in sync. For those people who never are going to pass only education of the general public and laws are going to make it possible for them to live their lives’s ,but you must remember no amount of laws can stop some people from being bigots and you can not make people like one another as long as we have free will. I have worked for many years trying to educate those in power and doing my part to help past Inclusive Laws that protect the LGBT community, but you have some mostly cders,transvestites and drag queens who won’t get involved mostly because they haven’t suffer the discrimination in their daily lives, since dressing for them is merely a hobbie. My post was more directed towards the people who try to group Transsexuals and Transgender in one group or who think they are one and the same their not as I explained above.
Sincerely
Brandi Parker  

once againYou launch into a diatribe containing a lack of awareness and understanding and leaping to unfounded conclusions which are prejudiced and sexist.
btw, seriously, if you are plan on moving out here as you posted elsewhere, you might want to write and get some info on local support and current activities.

No, Brandithat’s just it.
It is bigotry.
And you prove it by making the statements regarding me.
And until you are wiling to admit that it is bigotry, I will continue to remind you and speak out against it when you use it.
Stop being a bigot, stop acting on unfounded conclusions drawn from ignorance, and start learning.

There’s a much simpler reason why it’

…why it’s so cissential.Trans-people collectively own virtually nothing in the real world, but we can at least claim this three-letter prefix as our own. In the past, we had no choice but to engage in pedantic “pissing matches”, which would covertly raise the specter of which bathroom we’re entitled to use in people’s minds. Just the thought of cis-people fantasizing what it would be like for a trans-person to go the bathroom in their minds was enough to make me feel cis-oppressed all over again.
But with a fully weaponized cis on our side, we can now deploy devastating cissing matches on our own cis-terms. No longer will we be forced to patiently explain the excruciating historical distinctions between all the different trans terms to cis-people too lazy to plow through readily available Wikipedia dissertations on post-modern gender theory themselves. With cis, we can simply construct whatever cis-word we might need for the sake of an argument, and rest assured that no tedious explanations of our cis-terminology will ever be required.
Note to clever cis-persons: we trans-people do in fact own this thing and if you try to appropriate it for your own cis-purposes, you know full well what to expect…

Thank you, MenaYou summed this up beautifully.  Two days ago, I didn’t even know what “cis” was and all of a sudden I have people railing against people like me – just because we are who we are.  With no account taken of how inclusive we may be of our larger community taken (altho some are making it harder to be supportive when forced to knuckle under to their particular viewpoint).

No it doesn’t I am a realist you dyssonance on the other hand seem to think you can bully and force people to accept you if you yell loud enough and stamp your feet enough. You can not make anyone accept you not in the society we live in the ONLY way to be accepted is to at least attempt to fit in.
You and others like you refuse to do that. You think if you yell enough the world will create a third gender just for you and change the way the whole world does  everything…. hahahaha good luck. You need to realize that we live in a Very Visual Society were everyone both trans or not is judged by how they look daily. Why do you think pretty people get away with so much in life and why they have an easier time getting through life ? You need to wake up and smell the coffee hun the more you attempt to fit in the better its going to be for you and subconsciously I think you known this just like every transgender, cder and transvestite does as thats why they put soo much effort into passing.

I feel like I’m back in college at the late-night bull sessions(uh-oh, heifer sessions?).  Except I was playing bridge and drinking whiskey out of the bottle, while my friends solved the problems of the world out of our dorm rooms. What a shock when we went to live in the real world, huh?
Anyway, regarding the talk of privilege, I burst out laughing when someone above chastised someone for being offended at “being accused of privilege.” That crystallized it for me. ACCUSED.
I’m pretty agnostic on the whole cis topic; I have some definite opinions about Autumn’s handling of the moderation of that topic.  But really, the dozen or so people who have shown up in the past few days have done so to ACCUSE others of having privilege. Mena, I’m guessing you have pink skin. J’accuse. Duh.
Next?

The third genderActually, that already exists in a few places. Off the top of my head I can think of Thailand, Indonesia, and Oman. One other thing that has come up before the Supreme Court in India is the designation of “third gender” status for the hirjas (sp?)
America is not “the world.” Sex and gender categories is constructed differently in other countries.  

More info on the “third gender”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T…

As a side note…As a side note, blenders, imagine yourself trying to moderate a thread of this length for uncivil behavior if people won’t moderate their own statements — so we would maintain that LGBT coffee house lounge feel of PHB.
Using this thread as an example, which comments in this thread would you, the now moderator blender, find to be to be widely offensive, abusive or to be thread-jacking? Or perhaps, found in some other way to be in violation of the Terms Of Service (TOS) — a TOS that you’ve actually had to memorize, or reference frequently enough that you know its contents pretty darn well?
So, moderator blender, after determining who has crossed lines in their comment(s), which folk would you just send a friendly warning letter to, which folk would you just send an unfriendly warning letter to, which folk would you send a one week suspension letter to, and which people would you ban outright?
And, what would be your criteria as to which statements crossed the lines to determine which kind of e-warning-letter was issued to each individual you, the moderator blender, deserved an e-letter?
And then too, how much time would you have to set aside to write to each individual e-warning-letter — even if you had a basic templates for the warning/suspension/banning letters? Would you feel you would need to explain why you sent a specific blender, in your warning email to each of the now-determined-to-be offending blenders, so the individual “offenders” would know why he, she, or ze received an e-warning-letter? Or, would you just send out a bare template letter to each blender you identified as violating the TOS, leaving them to guess how and why those individual blenders crossed that TOS line you determined that the blender crossed?
Just something to think about, blenders. This thread has well over 250 comments in it as I’m writing this, and we’ve had multiple threads of this length and longer this week. How would you personally moderate a thread that looked like this one if it wasn’t free speech week at The Blend? Would you have the time, energy — or even desire — to do so?

If I were a mod,I would have realized in advance there was no good to come of this thread and closed it.  Or not started it at all.  It took little foresight to know this is what would have resulted from this thread.
Please stop creating threads just for the purpose of drama, even if other people ask you to.

Frankly Autumn, I wouldn’t do any of the crap you ask about.So some people were rude to each other. And others piled on.  And some people used naughty words making others clasp their pearls and swoon.
Wow.  That sounds a lot like life.
Get over it.  

Yes I known My mistake I didn’t think I needed to point out that I was referring to the Untied State since that’s the majority of the people on this blog live….jeeeeezzz Louwezzzzzz
Speaking of the hirjas they most of them do not have the abilities to transition as do people from other countries so most of them are nothing more then cross dressing full time, since they are not on hormones go through no counseling and never have surgery, so they are a very bad comparison to someone who sufferers from GID.
Brandi Parker

Perhapsbut that fits your definition of what a “third gender” is in an American/Western context. For example, no woman can show her face to a man in Oman. But a xanith can.
There’s a little bit of “Western privilege” and Western assumptions in your statement.

Wow.All I have to say is let’s stop throwing snowballs at eachother.  We have plenty of them coming from the “outside.”
Actually, I’m happy to have a discussion about this.. it’s important to our community.  But here’s what I find sad:
A post about meeting legislators to pass important ENDA legislation:  14 comments.
This post about the all-too-tired bickering amongst ourselves… 284 comments.
Obviously it’s a focus on the negative instead of moving forward.  Really, there is obviously more energy and thought going into an online battle of words versus getting things done for our community.
Flame me all you want, either side.  I just think we need to examine where our energy should be focused.

Kevinchi is rightBefore Stonewall (or earlier) how many would have belived that marriage equality would exist in 7 states and 1 district in the year 2009? Not me. But I just got married 9 days ago (yippee!!).
If trans people (I hope it is ok to use that phrasing – if not please educate me respectfully) and their allies never begin the arduous and lengthy uphill battle, then bathrooms will remain as only male or female. On the otherhand, if the struggle begins now we could very possiby see private businesses installing 3-option bathrooms within a decade or so in new construction public places – no not in places like Alabama, but I can see that happening here in New England or in California (California is as liberal as people previously thought but every fundie and wingnut went to the polls for prop 8 while liberals did not). It has to start somewhere and at some point – and it will.
To advocate to others who are willing to fight is defeatist and counter productive. If a person chooses not to participate they have no grounds IMO to shoot down those who have begun to dig the trenches.

You’re only kidding yourselfBelieve as you wish. I’m only telling you the truth about what to expect, if:
1) the votes are not there for a trans-inclusive ENDA, which means it will proceed just as it did last time.
or,
2) ENDA was killed completely and an epic backlash will ensue against trans folk.
You’re the kind of person who’s used to getting your way through bullying and verbal assault– and never called out on it until now, by me.

Again, do have a day filled with discrimination and anguish.

Thank you for the well wishes, but I live in a state with comprehensive protections for sexual orientation and gender identity.
I’m willing to bet it’s just a matter of time before you and The Blend’s trap door meet up.

But doesn’t that cloud your view a bit, JJ?Yes, we have nearly all of the comprehensive protections that we need in Illinois save for relationship recognition (and I believe we’ll have some form of civil unions or even marriage in no more than 2 years).

and(I can’t beleive I forget this when writing above) I was at Trinity College last month for the LGBT Film Festival and they had gender neutral restrooms. Granted it is a liberal school, but isn’t that where progressive change often begins?

I asked for an education on cisInstead, what you have given me is a lecture. Calling me “too lazy” is insulting and rather short sighted. If you had not been “too lazy” to plow through my readily available posts, you would have read that I had in fact gone to wikipedia and google to do my research but came out just as confused as when I went in.
But your post here has educated me on one important aspect of “cis”; the aspect that Pam and Autumn have been referring to regarding the weaponizing of the term. I now crystal clearly see their point of view of how cis is used as a weapon. Prior to your post I was neutral.
It seems to me that you are not reaching for a better place in the blend, but rather are simply venting your anger at any and all possible targets.
So cis-think about that.

I read that post, Johnas a bit of sarcasm.
I mean, if it is not sarcasm, then the person should receive some sort of warning.

Kevin, you’re no fun!I’ll have you know I fully intended to out myself in the end

FranklyI think the point of Pam’s “experiment” has been clearly shown by posting this piece. It is a testament to the need for moderation because in the absence of it this is what we get.
I would venture to guess that Pam purposefully had Autumn post this piece to show the anarchy resulting from two or three (or one?) rogue posters who are seeking to, IMO, cause harm in order to make their point.
I whole heartedly believe that Keenya, Kevo, Chamomile or whatever the name is is suffering from the same emotional flaw that I do. That is to errantly think that all persons who are not in my “group” are against my sexual orientation or right to marriage. My new hubby, Nick, has been pointing out this flaw to me for years now about my treatment of religious people. I always seem to go on the offensive when religion is brought up as a topic of discussion and it is the first “weapon” I go for when I feel oppressed. But it is my responsibility to work on that and to remember that not all religious people are against me. And to realize that there are times to attack, but more often not to.
The way “cis” has been used in this thread implys that the users have been snap deciding that everyone else is without empathy, compassion or even a basic understanding of trans issues. This is of course not correct. This is after all the “Blend” and I think the majority of those who come here know that.

LishYou got me all hot and bothered – and no one is here to cool me down. Shit!

Nice post (Comment ratings function disabled??)Was going to rate your post a 4+ on the old rating scale but I do not see it as an option today.  Has this feature been disabled?
Any way Flyerfier, thanks for your post that sums up my feelings completely. Very well said. No flames here.

I’m a playwright……and I have just read this thread from beginning to end.  Would anybody mind if I edited it a bit and did a reading?
I have to say, I think it would be hilarious.  There is nothing funnier than people taking themselves too seriously. This particular tempest in a teapot really says a lot about the state of discourse in the progressive movement. The characters are almost to a one caricatures though, full of self importance, self righteousness and unchained ego, so I’d have to tone that down a bit. No one would believe some of these people were real if put on a stage. The activist totally devoid of humor for example. And I’d probably use fewer names where the “i” is replaced with a “y”. Still, I can’t resist the idea of one character with an obscurely spelled name constantly screaming “It’s pronounced KEEVA!” every time it is mangled.
If you don’t think it is play worthy, read it again from the beginning, picturing a meeting hall and a circle of chairs, maybe a blackboard on which the letters “CIS” are written in perfect Palmer method long hand.  And the meeting is graveled to order….

It is like college, and yeah, just as based in the real world.
I didn’t follow the original topic because I didn’t have electricity for a few days, and when it came back, the thread was already out of control so I didn’t bother.  Not knowing what happened, I’m not going to comment on what Autumn did or didn’t do in that case, but the stuff that I have seen from her indicates that she’s a good egg.  
I kind of have pink skin, it’s actually olive.  This, I guess, would make me a pinkish natal straight female.  Talk about privilege!  ;^)
I just found it particularly annoying (and kind of amazing) that they were themselves using the tactics that they were accusing everyone else of, while none of us were doing that.  For example, when did anyone say that Sarah Palin was a bad mother because she left her kids to go to work?  She’s a bad mother for plenty of other reasons.  Maybe they were thinking of the Mark Sanford leaving his kids on Father’s Day situation and loosely applying it to Sarah Palin, but that’s just faulty logic.  It just blows the mind sometimes…

Dig All you likeI never started transition with the goal of changing the world or even fighting for equality for LGBT people…. and thought I’ve been involved with some of both the one thing I learned on my transitional journey is that there are those who for whatever reason do not want to follow the established rules for transitioning and take it upon themselves to do it their own way and therefore by doing so dilute the medical condition known as GID. I do not want to be associated with them or even linked to them in anyway and I think getting the U.S.A as a country to recognize a third gender is going to be extremely hard if not impossible I bit you well in your efforts, but speaking for myself I’m thankful that I have been blessed to be able to blend back into society.
Brandi Parker

You’re welcome.And don’t give up on all transpeople just because of a couple of bad apples.  
The only time that I heard the term “cis” was in organic chemistry.  I hope that the next time I hear it is in that context, otherwise my eyes may roll!

Of course I meant “gaveled”

What Battle ?John what battle would that be the one of trying to convince people to accept them even thought they refuse to fit into one of the two genders. Private business will only build 3-option bathroom if their made to and what good is that if your still segregated from the normal people ? No I think blending back into society which includes having surgery and following the SOC when it comes to transitioning is the only true way of fitting back in and living a normal life free from discrimination and abuse.
Brandi Parker

I secondI have to second what vanhattan says.  flyerfier  says what I was thinking but did not know how to express. It didn’t occur to me to compare the number of these comments to the number of comments on real issues.
Love,
Rick Cabral

It makes you wonderwhat The Peter thinks about what is going on, doesn’t it?

Well if you actually read thepost. I was not talking about the Palin thread, not this one. And by an educational diary, I was talking about increasing your ability to educate……by creating a diary.  
Does this clear it up?
One thing you may not know, the front page article will eventually get buried. By creating a diary you can have longer, more in depth conversations. I don’t care about actual discussions regarding gender issues, cis privilege, etc. I and I believe others were making a simple suggestion that in an effort to have a deeper discussion, more so than can be had trading posts back and forth, you or alang could start a diary on PHB, share your feelings, actually express yourself in a way other than simply replying to others.
I’m truly sorry if you thought I was in any way attacking you or arguing with you. Have a good week and I hope you start a diary so we can have a civil discussion about these issues.

We already haveAnd I never expected to survive the week in the first place.
My unwell wishings were a polite version of what I was stating.
I rarely get my way, as well — nor do I typically bully people with verbal assaults.  I have a made a pointed exception in your case because of the rampant bigotry being spoken and indicated.
My usual methodology is linguistic analysis, inductive response, btw. That is, I analyze what the poster is saying on multiple levels, and then begin a systematic response sequence based on what they have said with intent according to the purpose determined, which is usually learn something or teach something.
As for the protections, they do not limit you from having such a day.  They just make it less likely.
As for you points, they prove the fourth sentence in this post, specifically placed in that position for an educational effect that reaches beyond your surface reading.
Now, if you would like me to demonstrate why I responded to you in the fashions that I have thus far, I can do that as well — but, in return, I’ll need that apology so I can make mine.

It might, but I don’t think so.I think what clouds his judgment is rally a lack of knowledge and understanding of the nature of what it means to be trans, and that he’s relying on all that stuff we’ve talked to death about surrounding the reason this very thread was started in the first place (the “p word” — shhhh).
Indeed, I would actually be surprised if those protections present we able to cloud to his views, and based on construction, I’d say he mentioned them primarily as a ‘jab’.

It’s about power dynamics

And if you look honestly at your OWN posts, you will notice that you have had to explain who you are and WHAT you have done.  If you feel it necessary, why shouldn’t others?  

My specific concern is with people/groups with privilege naming themselves as allies to oppressed people/groups, or otherwise arguing that their actions stand against the particular power dynamics that they are privileged in.
That specific thing is not a practice I have engaged in here.
I think it’s really dangerous when privilege (I would say, over-empowered) people or groups do this. Because it uses the institutionalized power-to-define-reality to spin things in a certain way.
My suspicion is that if those who do this specific thing were to look carefully at where they … for lack of a better word, where or in what they’re standing when they do it, they would see that the floor they are standing on is made up of the thing that over-empowers them to begin with. And that’s a shaky, creepy kind of floor to stand on IMO.
Then again, maybe no one notices.
And Burnsey, you wrote:

It also goes to the subject of pointing out that what ONE person sees as an ally may be different than what another sees as an ally.  Not all members of a group agree on who supports them and who doesn’t, some see an enemy, or opressor, where others see someone who is not the “same” but still advocates for their rights.

Have you ever seen the dynamic where a self-designated “ally” will use these differences between members of an oppressed group against members of that group?
It’s a pretty common thing from what I have seen. So for example, you have someone(s) who the self-designated ally is doing harm to and when that is named, the self-designated ally rhetorically pulls out other members of the oppressed group who think they’re just such a wonderful ally — you ever seen or experienced this?
Your own description suggests how some of the wrongness in this dynamic. This part: “Not all members of a group agree on who supports them and who doesn’t, some see an enemy, or opressor, where others see someone who is not the “same” but still advocates for their rights.”
An over-empowered person making use of this to argue that they are an ally or they are doing good can very easily be another way to center the over-empowered person and use the institutional power-to-define to divide members of the oppressed group into acceptable ones and non-acceptable ones.
That dynamic is another reason why I think it’s dangerous for over-empowered people to self-designate as an ally, or otherwise argue for the positiveness of their actions in relation to the specific system of domination that over-empowers us.  
There are a lot of ways this specific practice that concerns me can and does feed the beast IMO.  

*sigh*Brandi,
Originally, I was just going to point out that you are doing the exact same things I pointed out earlier, yet again, and that you aren’t stopping to think about what you are saying.
So you lucked out this time.  This time, this one last time, I am going to actually explain a few things to you about the errors you made in your post and your ignorance and your leaps to conclusion which are founded on bigotry.
Bit by bit.

I am a realist

No, Brandi, you are not a realist.  A realist would avoid leaping to conclusions like you immediately after saying that, because a realist focuses strictly on what is placed before them and only what is evidenced and defined and provable.

you dyssonance on the other hand seem to think you can bully and force people to accept you if you yell loud enough and stamp your feet enough.

Here the leap to conclusion (saved only by the mitagator “seem”) is your first error. Were you a realist, you wouldn’t be relying on what seems to be the case, you would be relying on what is the case.
Such as the fact that for 8 of the last 18 years I was deeply involved in a party the platform of which was contributed to by moi and has indeed resulted in change of the political landscape that we are just now escaping from.  (for reference and less ambiguity, that means that I worked as a sociolinguist for the republican party and a large partof my job was helping the create language that did indeed affect social change, some of which affects you on a daily basis.  Cool, huh?)
SO if shouting and stamping my feet doesn’t change things, then how did shouting and stamping my feet do that in the first place?  Logical fallacy based on ignorance and wilfull ignorance (you could have asked me and there are verbal cues that would have prompted a reasonable person to do so in my posts).

You can not make anyone accept you not in the society we live in the ONLY way to be accepted is to at least attempt to fit in.

Here you make two logical errors and one huge leap to conclusion tht underlies the implied dynamics of the statement.
Contextually, for this statement to have been made, you would have needed to be leaping to a conclusion that I am seeking to establish acceptance.  SInce you have not, in point of fact, asked me if I am doing so, the only way you could think that is if you leaped to a conclusion.
Even when we first encountered each other on Topix, I never made such an assertion — I do not and never have sought acceptance of transfolk.  WHich you would know if you had asked.
So, since I am excusing you via the methodology of defining your error with the euphemism of leaping to a conclusion instead of flat out calling you a liar, I save you face while informing you that you made an error at the same time.
Next up, the two logical fallacies.  You can, indeed, force someone to accept you.  IT is not easy, and usually quite painful for them since it involves various techniques that are extremely disapproved of but generally referred to as brainwashing.
So your immediate fallacy is that you did not logically establish your assertion and since I have just disproved it, you now no longer have it to stand on.
YOu then compound this fallacy by relying on another one that posits that the only way to do something is x.
Well, I fit in rather easily without being accepted in many places.  And I have never blended in, Brandi — I’m multiracial in a culture and society that favors and expects singularity in racial identification and expression.  I do not engage in any of that.
Furthermore I need only point out that in the last 40 years GLB folks have “fit in” better than they ever did in the years immediately prior to that (where the standard requirement for them was that they blended in) until, oh, just over 40 years ago, they had a series of uprsiings led by what we call transfolk today, kicking off a new methodology that seems to have done exactly the opposite of what you are saying is not possible.
That’s also, I should point out, another leap to a conclusion without evidence or knowledge.  Not to mention fairly ignorant of your own darn history, but I can’t fault you for that given the dearth of cultural competence among GLBT people of their own culture.
SO that entire sentence is shot to hell.

You and others like you refuse to do that.

I will simply reference above — again, a leap to conclusion that is contextually dependent on the previous leaps, which, in turn, digs you a deeper hole of FAIL in terms of your argument.
However, just for fun, lol,  I gotta ask, because I’m a bitch: what “others” like me?  How are they like me?  I’m a pretty singular sort of individual, Brandi, so be very careful when you say something as ambiguous as this, because people can tear you into tiny little pieces using it — it’s like handing them a live grenade.

You think if you yell enough the world will create a third gender just for you and change the way the whole world does  everything…. hahahaha good luck.

Ok, for one, I really need to tell ya that you have either leaped to another unfounded conclusion or your ability to read minds has malfunctioned on a massive scale. Personally, I sincerely doubt that you have the ability to read minds (if you did, you probably wouldn’t be posting this tripe without some form of malign intent).
What makes you think you know what I think?
sigh
Ok, let me point something out to you, Brandi, very clearly.  I am not trying to create a third gender. Let alone just for me. Indeed, what I am doing has exceedingly little to do with me, personally, and more with an entire class of persons of which you are an admitted part (unless you’d rather I simply allow you to not be included in it, which I’m quite willing to do).
So, since you didn’t bother to ask me, and you are categorically wrong, and you were engaging in a leap to a conclusion based on a class that you have established you consider me a part of and that that entire class of people to which I am attributed wants to create a third gender.
Then you mock that entire class of people.  That, my dear, is bigotry. Light, granted, but still such.
But you sink yourself deeper in your whole!

You need to realize that we live in a Very Visual Society were everyone both trans or not is judged by how they look daily.

Ok, I gotta mock you a little bit here: Capitals on Very Visual Society?
sigh
That aside, your lack of knowledge about me is rather astounding, especially given I have made little secret of the fact I am a sociologist and could make an appeal to authority and note that I most likely know more about society than you do.  I won’t, though — its a fallacy in and of itself, and while I’ve made three so far, I wouldn’t want to hurt your feelings too much.
So let’s simply, for the limited purpose exclusively of responding to your statement, that this is even vaguely close to the truth: if so, you are engaging in a particular form of discrimination known as lookism — separating the world into pretty, plain, and ugly, and fundamentally assigning (through code implicature) a subjective measure of worth that is universal.
Hence my noting, earlier, that you were engaging in discrimination.
Furthermore, you are using that very same phraseology to establish (again through code implicature) that for transfolk (contextual subject) their appearance is fundamentally linked to their gender expression and that such is based wholly in the subjective valuation of the beholder, not the subject.
(In less fancy language, you are saying that those who do not pass are not their claimed gender, which is a conditional statement relying on a further discriminatory position that is colloquially known at present as transphobia).
(yes, that means she just called transwomen men and transmen women.  She misgendered them, for those reading after the fact).

Why do you think pretty people get away with so much in life and why they have an easier time getting through life ?

Bold lookism, used as a supportive statement to establish (through explicit statement) the coded meaning explained above — that is she says it indirectly to lead up to it as a supportive statement, and then presents the statement as a matter of course.  
Brandi, what I just said means that you just enabled discrimination and used discrimination to justify further discrimination.
However, since I have a compulsion to answer question, even prejudiced ones, I need to do so:
How about because people are generally speaking lookist and that a socially constructed ideal of beauty is being upheld and modeled through exposure that creates a false connection between power and beauty (funny, Leona Helmsey got away with a hell of a lot more than Paris Hilton has.  I’d suggest that there is a discursive pattern indicating an obsession with appearance that is suggestive of narcissism, but I suspect that such would be poorly received and so I will avoid such at this moment).

You need to wake up and smell the coffee hun the more you attempt to fit in the better its going to be for you and subconsciously I think you known this just like every transgender, cder and transvestite does as thats why they put soo much effort into passing.

Well, as established earlier, I was placed in a particular class of people (at that time implied within the code beneath the explicit) and now we have that class of people described.
So now we can say you are a bigot against transfolk, and that you have expressed it, clearly.
As a note, I don’t particularly like coffee — I’m a tea drinker with an occasional cup of java when tae is impractical. Part of the reason I don’t like it is the smell.
And I am fully awake — this sort of fisking of a post does require me to be so, you realize, correct? That or I have some secret superpower I am unaware of…
Um, so, now you reassert the previous argument that fitting in is better (a subjective concept dependent on the person stating such), despite my earlier acknowledgment that I do not fit in.
Going back to an unrelated post, I should point out that I do not have to “work” at passing — never have.  I was struck with genes that have made it possible for me to pass as white in a cultural that deems me, without my explicit support, black by virtue of bloodline, and a wonderful response to hormonal change which have given me the ability to present myself in a manner that allows for passing (a racial and appropriative concept dependent on the argument of deception, which holds that people are not really what they claim to be and therefore misgenders folks yet again on the coded implicature level).
To wit, visual evidence:
Now, by your statement, I should have done better. Given I hold advanced degrees in three fields, have owned and operated several businesses (including two million dollar ones), was married for 13 years and have 5 children and one grandchild, was a US Army Ranger, served as a member of the Unites States Electoral College, and was elected to office, I’d say that not fitting in has actually done me one hell of a lot more good than fitting in would have.
In part because of the additional drive and will associated with such, but, indeed, to a great extent, I succeeded because I did not fit in, since my history is usually of doing things that are hard to do rather than easy.
Which I suggest you consider very carefully next time you want leap to conclusions about me or my viewpoints.
ANd may I suggest, with venom, that the next time you decide to make wild and uninformed guesses about me or my background, you realize that I am neither typical of anyone nor better than anyone else, and I will, indeed, “bully” you by demonstrating just how wrong you can be when you fail to stop and consider what I’ve already told you time and time again.
If fisking didn’t take so damn long, I’d do it to every post I encounter, when I have something to say, but instead I condense what I would say down into simpler and easier to digest pieces so that people don’t get hit with this sort of wall of text.
Oh, and as a note, most of the classes of people you maligned in your post don’t put a lot of effort into passing.
You might want to remember that next time you spout such an idiocy again.
K?

Oh, and..You might want to consider that this is a breakdown of how I think about posts that I read in a more explicit fashion.
That’s a good example of what I generally do in my mind at a much greater speed than I could possibly type it (or even speak it), and in which I make it perfectly clear how I approach any post I respond to in terms of thought process (I expect you will only see the emotional context you wish to see, and likely expect me to have written it in some sort of enraged expression and mindset, whilst I did not — nor did I do so in responding either time to you.)
Even the one’s where I make a joke, or laugh about something.
I choose words for a reason.
You might want to question me on why I chose to express myself in that particular way to you when I do it so very rarely to others (indeed, never before on the blend)

Crap Forgot the linkhttp://www.pamshouseblend.com/…
(see, I know I’m not better than everyone else. I get reminders ALL the time…)

Having moderated larger and more extensively used sitesI can say that, for free (and, technically, costing me something), I’ve done all of that and more, routinely.
I can also say that when I screwed up, I apologized.
Since it was something I enjoyed doing, I never used it as an excuse, and I always took the time to explain specifically why I had to ban someone (very, very rare) or vacation them (a little more frequently), but usually I was able to take the discussion (and given that these people were 90% artistically driven and usually dealing with issues surrounding copyright law when it came to flame wars or fights over a particular modeling method or program, it made dealing with LGBT folk seem relatively easy) and solve the issue.
Now, I will say that I have the advantage in this, so the question, for me, isn’t exactly a fair one, as I have some small skill in the matter in question (which is language use — not in the sense of the issues going on, but in the sense that language is something I’ve worked with for years).
Plus, I did have a set of about 30 basic, ironclad rules, and an ignore feature, which made things significantly easier.
The rules were specific (and based on standard rules of decorum pulled from debate models such as Robert’s), explained out with examples, and enforced with a rather light hand.
I was subject to the same rules, as well, even as owner, in order to avoid issues of blatant hypocrisy, and in order to model them (since the site’s owners and moderators are responsible for the tone).
Just sayin

I think you had it right the first time David+

Heh I liked the “And I’d probably use fewer names where the “i” is replaced with a “y”.” part.
Have to say, were I writing a play, I’d likely do the same thing.
But remember the rule of all drama:  it must be believable to some extent to gain the willing suspension of disbelief.
Truth is always stranger than fiction.
Because fiction has to make sense.
Truth seldom does…

Heya I don’t think I’ve ever considered you pushy. Or overbearing.  Opinionated, most likely, but then, that’s usually a good thing.
Yes, the majority of the community is united.  ITs a stronge and potent reminder which is why I am being so harsh on JJ.
All I will say to the privilege piece is do some reading, and then try a few experiments.  ALthough I picked up on the idea right away, because of my rather strange lot in life I’ve actually never really seen it in action and realized it until after I gave it a shot.
I can give a link to the core document that started it as a serious concept and explained it in a way that was essential for people to really grasp it initially.
I also understand the third paragraph’s opening sentiment. And, again, I would recommend the unpacking article.  It addresses a lot of that stuff in a manner that is less fraught with some of the defensiveness and ire around here.
Also, there was a lot of poorly structured information released in the threads, which made it worse and led to people completely missing the point about it.  Its not a “personal” or bad thing, but, really — I will get you the article (just email me — I’ve got it in my profile here).
Your last sentence intrigued me, and while I could go onto a major tangent with it (especially in my mood of late, lol) it would be worse to the thread than lolcats, so I shall avoid the sleep inducing power of that kind of discussion.
in closing, I will say that one thing that I always get a chuckle out of is when I read people saying things like I’m angry or something, lol.  I rarely get angry (wasn’t angry when I wrote to JJ, for example).  WHen I get angry I can barely speak, let alone type, and it used to always come out as violence.
NOt sure how it would come out since I transitioned — I get upset, but everything is different now…

there is another lesson here..severalone might be, how we approach asking for what we want, even if we think we are asking nicely.  if one thinks one asked the question nicely and this is result, then perhaps rethinking how to ask might give a different result.  also, the answer could be no and sometimes it is better to be happy than right.  clearly, no matter who is doing the oppressing, the oppressee needs a way to point it out in a way that the oppressor sees the situation in a new way.  however, sometimes you have to accept that ‘they’ are not ready mentally and some people never will be.  we cannot insist that a person ‘grow’ or change so as to not hurt our feelings.  how people react is about them, and how we react is about us.  we must learn how to live in the world with people that are at different stages of understanding and development on any given subject.  as someone mentioned above, i have a bias about religion, against it.  when meeting someone religious i am automatically on the defensive.  however, that is all about me and my ego.  when my emotions are raised like that i know that this is a problem for me to work on.  it is my hot button issue.  i know that i will be a right fighter, one upper, sanctimonious, etc because i ‘know’ something about them that they don’t.  i treat them like an enemy and that is how they respond.  i am more self aware now and i can catch myself sooner before start digging that hole.  i used to try to hang out and post at the neal boortz site.  i was the lone liberal homo there and i got bashed regularly for spoiling all the ranting fun they had, even when i asked nicely and rarely.  i wanted to find a nonliberal site to get the different perspective.  neal boortz is gay friendly and pot and abortion friendly.  his posters are not.  there is no empathy there.  i tried to hang but in the end i chose to leave because i felt mired in negativity and would become upset.  i was not learning as i had been in the beginning and i was not making a positive difference.  i came here to get different perspectives and some comraderie with fellow glbt folks.  the intellect and analysis and writing skills here at the blend are head and shoulders above any other site.  however this is proof positive that emotion trumps intellect and people cannot self moderate without self awareness.  i look forward to the return of the moderator.  i for one am going to once again force myself away from the odd seduction of negativity.  i think it is a drug and i’m trying to break the addiction.  

Yes, vanhattenThe ratings system was shut off a few days ago- for a week.
It’s been, um, interesting around here for the past 10 days or so…

No kidding, Mena.Their turn for popcorn and chortling, I suppose.

You said it!Flyerfier is dead on.
Thanks for saying what many of us are thinking.

A simple, true, apology could end all this.I’ve had to say this countless times in countless internet dramas.
Apologise.
Admit your wrongs.
Say what was your fault.
Identify how you could have handled things better.
Own your words, and where they were wrong admit they were wrong.
Do not try to deflect blame onto others, even if they goaded you.
Do not say “but you won’t accept it so why do I bother”.
Do not try to disown past statements, or try to invent context for them that makes them look better.
Do not phrase an apology as an attack on those who are angry at you.
Do not put out a convoluted ‘correction of my statements’ that make Sarah Palin’s speeches look lucid.
Passive aggressive ‘non-apology apologies’ actually make things fundamentally worse. People are actually more likely to accept an obviously insincere but straightforward apology over a passive aggressive ‘non-apology apology’. Passive aggressive behaviour when giving an ‘apology’ not only diminishes any effect of apologising, it has the reverse effect in that it is taken as an insult to those who were expecting a straight forward apology.
So far neither Pam or Autumn have done much straight forward apologising, and too much passive aggressive non-apology apologising.
Worse, in outing Kynn’s dreamwidth account details, they blurred the line that says ‘outing’ is unacceptable. The correct response was this – “We have determined from evidence that Caoimhe is the recreation of Kynn’s account, in light of that the account has been banned.” What Pam and Autumn went on to do was purely vindictive, added to the drama, and had no benefit. It has established precedent of ‘upset us and we will publish potentially damaging details about you’.
If Pam and Autumn continue in this way, and refuse to see the damage they have done to their community, there is little hope the community can continue to respect them as leadership.
I would not currently be able to call this site ‘T Tolerant’. Perhaps ‘T Barely Tolerant So Long As They Don’t Get Uppity’.

No damage here…but thanks for looking out for me and my* community.

Bla Bla Bla Dyssonance  I’m so happy for you you finally got around to taking the Benjamen Franklin writing course and wow look you even bought a big words dictionary ……..Sorry you wrote all that in an attempt to impress me and all the fine folks here, but alas in the end you only look more disparate to prove your point with all your twist and turns using all those big words trying to make me look like a bigot when in fact I’m just a Lesbian who happens to have a very different opinion that yours to which you have no defense against especially since you see the evidents of my opinions everyday and everywhere in real life and on TV.  We live in a visual society and if you stand out like a sore thumb then your going to get noticed and if your documents /gender doesn’t meet whats consider normal then your going to get ridiculed thats just how it is…..yes we need laws to protect those who do not pass and never will and yes I helped fight for those. But its sure not for me it’s not going to help me…….I pass completely and I’ve been blessed and for that I’m truly grateful.  I’m not going to benefit from ENDA but someone else might and I remember the beginning of my transition how hard it was to find a job and how I looked so awkward and manly in a dress I remember how I had way to muscle mass and how the hormones hadn’t had time to do their work yes dysonnance I wasn’t always this gorgeous and beautiful but seven years has changed a lot of things.
Anyway I remember those struggles and if I can make them less or easier for someone else then I will. There were many years I was struggling to survive and care for my son…Yes dyssonance I’m a single mom I’ve raised my son from birth alone and completed and successful transition. He’s now 18 and getting ready to join the air force. Yes  Dyssonance your right I do put you in a different group I don’t even consider myself trans anything the word trans comes from a word meaning to transfer as in from one thing to another I’ve done and its done now I’m just a lesbian does that make me better then you ? NO just different and since you’ve told me before that you have not had surgery and do not want surgery well that means your transgender and that’s a different group then myself who has gone the HBS route of transitioning and followed the SOC to the letter…which means I’m a Boniface TS women with papers to prove it. And yes I think people like you dilute my condition and make it harder for me to fight for rights and yes I think you latch onto the coat tails of my diagnosis for which you’ve most likely never had a day of counseling…. I’ll bet your one of those people who are called (do it yourselfers) aren’t you ?  Getting your hormones via the Internet are we ? Never have had any blood work done and doesn’t see endocrinologist right ? Just popping hormone pills and getting breast augmentation surgery and call you a women is that how it works hun ? I also think that not near enough education has been done to tell people about what the differences are between your group and my group and that needs to be done, but it won’t be done by me as I’m out of this game got one more stop to make on this transition journey and that’s to the FFS doctor and no it’s not because I need it to pass it’s for me personally then I’m done and it will be time to Dive..Dive …Dive.
Sincerely
Brandi Parker
 

SeriouslyI thought better of you than this, Pam. Outing someone because they disagree with you? Come on.

Some “outing”!A troll with multiple i.d.’s here has multiple made-up names out on the interwebs and multiple web pages. And pointing out a couple of those aliases is an “outing”? Who’s zooming who here?
Hey, guess what?  Kynn is actually Rachel Roo.  And I’m Rachel’s aunt. Pass it on.
See, anyone can play.

Cis is not a derogatory termApart from all the drama regarding bannings, I do think that much of the discussion has completely ignored the central issue. And in my mind, the central issue is that there is no legitimate complaint when transpeople use the term cissexual or cisgender.
For those of you who are unfamiliar with Latin, the prefix cis simply means “in alignment.” So the word cissexual means ‘someone whose sex characteristics are in alignment with their sense of gender identity.’
I absolutely fail to comprehend why this conceptual category is up for debate. To make an analogy, it is equivalent to a heterosexual person objecting to the term heterosexual or straight. While they might object (although I have never seen a case of a heterosexual objecting to this term), to eliminate the word from the lexicon would automatically erase and make invisible all those privileges that straight people enjoy that homosexuals do not.
In the same vein, for a gay male to object to the very term that exposes the privilege he enjoys, well, as far as I’m concerned, the sole purpose of this objection is to maintain the invisibility of privileges that GLBs enjoy that transpeople do not.
I’m calling BS.
Now as for the claim that members of a class should be able to pick words and terms that describe themselves, that’s all well and good as far as it goes. But there is a long history of trans issues (and people) being ignored, marginalized, and getting thrown under the bus when it comes to matters like ENDA. GLB people as a whole have largely given lip service to T issues, and done an amazing job at avoiding any examination of their own privileges viz-a-viz trans people.
The history of lesbian feminists shares many of the same elements, with the addition that in the case of separatists, they have made the claim (and acted accordingly) that trans women are not women. i.e. exclusion of services such as rape crisis centers, women only events, etc. This view has persisted and caused immense amount of harm to the trans community, yet by and large, it is the rare lesbian feminist who even grudgingly admits the real costs of this exclusionary practice.
I think it is fair to say that the GLB community as a whole has done a very poor job acknowledging and working for issues that are of concern for transpeople. I have read many comments here that GLB people just don’t care all that much about T issues, and while I can respect that advocacy is often centered around concerns that affect us personally, where I draw the line is when the privileged group (in this case white males) makes a bogus linguistic claim so as to avoid the topic of gross inequalities between GLBs and Ts.
Then, somehow (I saw no coherent argument) Autumn comes to the conclusion that cissexual and cisgender are terms that have been “weaponized” whatever that means, and banned from usage.
I find this really sad, because I stumbled onto PHB accidentally when I kept seeing trans stories coming up in my web searches. I found Pam to be very supportive of trans issues, and PHB was well on its way to being a wonderful place for the whole GLBT community to get to understand each other better. And by that, I mean especially that it gives GLBs the opportunity to learn what life is like for transpeople. Not some stereotype, not some ludicrous media portrayal, but real transpeople that feel, and hurt, and bleed.
I am feeling now that GLBs are squandering that opportunity.
Lastly, I have no intention of eliminating the word cissexual from my vocabulary. For far too long non-trans people have portrayed us as simply mentally ill, and now that that assessment has been utterly shattered by the real face of trans people, cissexuals are scrambling for a way to keep their privileges invisible. No more. We’re not going away and we’re not shutting up. Get used to it.

what happened to kim pearson’s postsand who else has had posts deleted.

Invalid link?That link does not seem to point to anything.

Yes what did happen Kim’s Posts?She used to have a post right under one of mine, and now it is gone.
What was that Winston Smith, Kim was never here, but…… but….. yes I understand Oceania has always been our enemy.

you can’t out someone who outed themselvesthe page is publicly accessible, and the very information she’s concerned about is still up there. That hardly looks like outing to me. It’s not about a disagreement, it’s about sockpuppetry. If anyone comes on here doing that crap, they must be exposed as frauds.

ncnc

Invalid may be in the eye of the beholder.The link originally pointed to a an over-long, rambling, semi-coherent, self-reverential post in this same thread which included a photo of what looked like a woman in her underwear standing by the side of a highway.
Have you ever had one of those dreams where you are horrified to find yourself out and about in public while being buck naked?  I thought maybe the photo was to illustrate a better class of that nightmare.
Perhaps the mods are moderating despite what they said they would do.  Or perhaps they interpret the ban on revealing “personal information” to include details revealed by posters about themselves?
By the way, that post is still available if you know how to look for it.

Kim Pearson’s commentsKim Pearson requested that her account be deleted from the Blend this AM (that is different from being banned; the account remains dormant). When an account is deleted, Soapblox’s software then deletes all of the user’s parent comments and nukes the nested child comments made by anyone else; that’s an unfortunate  limitation of the software. When a user is banned, the comments are preserved. I confirmed Kim’s request with her this AM.
BTW, skeptics don’t have to believe me about the software platform issue, Paul Preston at Soapblox.net will confirm this.

AhemI was not in my underwear!
But I did get a good laugh, because, um, (looks both ways, leans in, whispers)
I saw the pic and immediately thought I was half undressed. (shhh.  DOn’t spread that around).
I was, however, at a Marriage Equality March a few days after I’d returned from DC.
As to the “semi-coherent” part — I was fully coherent at the time.
I do ramble, ya got me there.
It was not self reverntial (nor self referential, for that matter) since it was directly responding to specific points made by the original poster regarding me, and I wanted to clarify for her that she was being a twit in the most pleasant manner I was willing to allow.
Given that my previous responses had been less explanatory, I thought she might appreciate being informed as to the nature of the mistakes she had made in her unfounded conclusions regarding me.
And the pic was evidence, since I occasionally get called on it.
As to why it is gone, it was part of a nested set of responses to a post removed by request of the author of said post, and as a result was wiped out in the ensuing account deletion.
Nothing sinister.
Drat.  I was so hoping for sinister…

PollyannaWhile I understand your related point, its still an outing.

I am sorryabout your sister in law, some people would rather beat someone with a Bible than read it. The ones who read it will ether be converts or will have the self discipline to treat others as they would have others treat them.
You can’t force tolerance on people, you cannot demand it ether. The truly tolerant DON”T need laws to tell how to lead a life that promotes tolerance.

threads like this one makes me not so upset lightning hit my modemseems like the 20th thread discussing the same old same old, and doesn’t resolve any of it.