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Well, Chaz Bono has been identified as someone who is going to transition from female-to-male, and members of the press went searching for a trans spokesmodel for comment. No surprise there.
But oops, it looks like the National Center For Transgender Equality‘s (NCTE’s) executive Director Mara Keisling bumbled an answer. So, let’s take a look, eh?
From CNN‘s Sonny and Cher’s child transitioning from female to male:
Someone’s decision to transition does not necessarily mean they are undergoing gender reassignment surgery, and in many cases they do not, said Mara Keisling, executive director of the Washington-based National Center for Transgender Equality.“The whole media fixation on surgery is kind of misplaced,” she said. “Almost no transgender people ever have surgery. We don’t have any idea how many do.”
At a time when trans folk and our allies want to see health care benefits provided by the workplace increased for trans people — including genital reconstruction surgery that has been determined to be good for the health and wellbeing of many transsexuals — Mara’s phrasing for CNN seems at best unfortunate, and at worst actually damaging for increasing health benefits for those of us trans folk who actually identify as transsexual.
In other words, for me it would be nice for me if the Veterans Administration would do genial reassignment surgeries, but her comment “Almost no transgender people ever have surgery” makes it sound like my peers and I don’t want those surgeries for ourselves — so in the personal sense it sounds like she’s saying to the general public that I don’t want or need the VA to cover it.
The reality is that insurance doesn’t often cover genital reconstruction surgeries, so most transsexuals can’t afford the $15,000 to $60,000 for male-to-female genital reconstruction surgery, or the $30,000 to $150,000 for female-to-male genital reconstruction surgery out of their own pockets. Economics are often the main reason why the transgender people who identify as transsexual don’t have genital reconstruction surgery. Some transsexuals actually do identify as non-operative transsexuals, but my experiece is that those folk aren’t how most transsexuals identify — most who haven’t had genital reconstruction surgery identify as pre-operative even if they anticipate never being able to afford surgery on their genitalia.
I believe that what Mara was trying to say was that for transsexuals, when we are born what’s between our ears doesn’t match the genitalia usually associated with that gender. However, having genitalia that doesn’t match one’s gender identity shouldn’t be used by media or politicians to say that trans men aren’t really men, or trans women aren’t really women — Genitals don’t trump identity.
And too, not everyone who identifies as a transgender person is a transsexual person — there are crossdressers, genderqueers, and such that may identify as transgender, but not as transsexuals.
But, this isn’t what she actually said — or worse, what she actually implied — with how she worded her response to Chaz Bono’s transition.
Engh, I know that trans activist leaders are going to be quoted when “big news” transitions take place, and gaffs will occur when talking to the press. I just wish Mara would have thought about how to answer that standard question about gender and genitalia a bit more than she appears to have for this occasion; I hope she thinks through a “standard blurb” for that standard question on gender and genitalia for future interviews regarding high profile transitions.
And too, I certainly hope no one takes what Mara Keisling said this time and attempts to use it as an argument against insurance companies paying for genital reconstruction surgeries, or even covering other services for trans people — such as hormone therapy and psychological counseling. That would be tragic.
NCTE gets a monthly donation from me, and that certainly won’t change. Gaff’s happen; we all move forward. I do hope NCTE clarifies what Mara meant very early next week though, as this statement she made for CNN really is a gaff that could hurt trans people’s quest for a future thst includes more inclusive medical care.
44 Comments
thanks for this, AutumnI noticed that quote, too, when I read the article. I’m a friend and ally to transfolks but not trans myself; so even though it didn’t sound right to me, I didn’t know if I was just uninformed or something in this case. So I particularly appreciate hearing your perspective on this. Having dealt with the media over the years, I wonder if Mara actually said a lot more than that to the media, and they cherry-picked that one statement without proper context. That sort of thing happens all the time. Speaking to the media in soundbites is an acquired skill, so she may not have realized what they would end up using.
With all due respectWhat Mara said is true. The vast majority of the transgender community does not seek sex reassignment. As Riki Wilchens noted, crossdressers are likely far more numerous than transsexuals (preop, postop, nonop via choice or not). What is the figure, something like 40-50k postoperative transsexuals in the US? There are also the gender queer who are different. With respect to transsexauls, Autumn is correct that cost is a barrier for many.
Unfortunately, this does get back to the problem of lumping all gender variant people under the label of transgender. It is rather difficult to provide a short comment to a reporter when one’s answer needs to be prefaced with an explanation of this identity.
Stupid CommentsIt was a dumb thing to say maybe she was referring to the Crossdressing or tranvestite crowd when she said that ,but ALL Transexuals want surgery not all can effort it but they will do just about anything to get it….another reason I say transexuals do not fall under the label of transgender their issue are to different from other gender varient individuals. Transexuals have a Mecical Diagnosis Condition thier brains are actual different thats way different then just enjoying dressing up ir doing it for sexual reasons……just my two cents.
Brandi
Definitely a blunder…As a post SRS transsexual woman myself I have to agree with Autumn. Nearly all people I have met who identify as transsexuals have either had surgery or plan to. Of course I have met, and do currently know some non-op trans people but they are by far in the minority.
I definitely think this misquote by Mara can’t do anything good for us. Hopefully it will go largely unnoticed.
Gwen
Difficult SubjectThis is a very difficult subject. Nobody wants to say that anyone has to do anything to be comfortable in their life other than what they feel they need to. On the other hand, a large number of transgendered people desperately want surgery and don’t have access to it.
She should do the honorable thing: QuitBut, we know what she rakes in for making statements like that, so, similar to there bring no incentive for Joe Solmonese to quit after the Southern Comfort lie, there’s no incentive for Keisling to do what’s right.
I still have never acknowledged the legitimacy of NCTE.
As it was before NCTE’s mysterious immaculate organizational conception, the legit trans advocacy organization is NTAC.
Mara’s commentAs someone whose known Mara for quite a while, I have to wonder if perhaps she wasn’t misquoted, or actually meant that many F2M’s aren’t as likely to have surgery. Surgery for the guys is often as much as 8 times as expensive as for M2F, and as yet isn’t nearly as successful fuctionally.
they are quite the outfitI might sometimes disagree with NCTE but they do appear to have a reasonable education and access based strategy that clearly takes into account the paucity of options and resources held by the community. We have little money and few other electoral resources (ability to train candidates, mobilize voters, provide ground troops, pay for polling…). We are disbursed in small pockets throughout the nation but nowhere are we big enough of a community to politically matter (not that there would be party competition over us anyway). Complicating everything is that we are a heterogeneous lot that remain pariahs at worst and curiousities at best. Mara gets my support for taking a reasonable approach given the hurdles. That said, her words (even if technically correct) were probably ill advised.
Speaking of NTAC’s legitimacy, they don’t even have a working website.
http://www.ntac.org/
Q.E.D.0 is greater than -1
LOL I tweeted this the day it happened (friday?). Maybe you could ask her yourself, you have her number…. *snark*Nice find, nice commentary.
it is easy to criticize Mara and NCTE butWhat would you do differently?
A: Exist with integrity
ExplainPlease expand on your comment. I am not aware of anything in the public record that demonstrates a lack of integrity on the part of NCTE or Mara.
and for the record hereI am not in any way affiliated with NCTE, NTAC, any other trans group or any informal cliques within the trans community (activist or social). Additionally, I am not affiliated with any national LGBT rights groups. Furthermore, I have only met briefly Mara on 2 occasions and she doesn’t even like me…so I am not here to defend her or NCTE out of any sense of loyalty. I’m fairly unbiased. I simply think that NCTE and its management have done a pretty decent job given the crappy hand they are dealt.
ApologismIf nothing else, being an apologist for those within the LGB(T) movement who discriminate against trans people (MTFs in particular) in employment – having claimed that it is “mostly not overt or conscious” – should have warranted permanent disqualification as an serious advocate for anyone or anything besides herself.
Another link to CNN story – a little more contextAutumn links to this story above, but more quotes are there too.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBI…
There’s also another CNN story with different quotes at this link on NCTE’s site.
http://nctequality.blogspot.co…
and sometimes you have to accept lossWe have to live with the reality of the situation. The lesbian and gay communities and their rightful dominance over LGBT advocacy organizations (money, volunteers, numbers..) are gatekeepers for transgender rights. Nothing is going to change that in the near future. Stamping off and refusing to work with them is about the worst thing that we could do when most of the world really doesn’t care about us or our rights.
I find it interestingthat you did not address the substance of my criticism, instead going for the Arivosisian, “We have to live with the reality of the situation.”
If I adhered to that philosophy, I’d still have an ‘M’ on my driver’s license.
As a note…CD’s, GQ’s, et al do indeed go through a transition.
Simply not the same one that, for example, I go through, and certainly not with the same impetus and personal impact that I’ve had to deal with in mine.
ANd transgender does not mean all transsexuals (strictly speaking, its not capable of it, since it limits everything to the binary structure in the first place, and although no one ever wants to admit it, there are some transfolk who do not need to change their gender, merely their sex).
The majority of transsexuals do not ever get surgery, for that matter, but that’s forgotten because people forget the majority of transsexuals are persons of color. Who often have even greater hurdles to overcome. One could even call saying that that’s can’t be true a sort of privileged look at things.
The majority of Transgender folks, as Mara noted, don’t even need surgery. Because the majority of them are not transsexuals.
None of which means that transsexuals do not need surgery, regardless of the fears that people may have about how that affects things. Indeed, that very fear is heteronormative and suspect as a result.
DO the majority of transsexuals need access to reasonable medical care, inclusive of genital surgery? Oh hell yeah.
Mara didn’t misspeak.
What she said, however, isn’t all that thrilling for transsexuals.
nor have youNor have you offered any substantive change in NCTE tactics beyond saying exist with integrity.
“Apologizing” for movement groups and other actors is really the only rational thing that can be done. They hold the cards in terms of access, position, money and numbers. We simply need their support more than they need us as we are totally powerless without LGB buy-in. Living with the reality of that situation doesn’t imply that no actions can be taken. It is just that you accept what can and cannot be done in light of what resources you have and what your goals are. In that vein, we did express our displeasure with our erstwhile allies on ENDA. They didn’t budge. Now what? What would you have done differently? Refuse to ever work with them again? Pressure MTPC to send the 20k back? Demand that HRC’s trans diversity person stage some sort of dramatic walkout? Picket Barney Frank? Publish a list of HRC donors and say they are blocking trans rights? Personally, I would accept that we lost that round and move on to the next battle.
Interestingly, the entire LGBT community is going through the same thing right now with Obama and various progressive groups. HRC is getting pilloried for not standing up to the administration and members of Congress. But what can they really do if Obama doesn’t want to move on the issues? Vote Republican in 2012?
No.
i refuse to be dragged inside your reality and forced to exist there.
Autumn Sandeen is wrong. The statement made was correct. Most transgenders don’t get or want surgery. Transsexuals do.
So far in my life, LGBT have done nothing but harm to me.
Today at our local ‘Pride’ event, something small but profound happened that for me was the last straw.
The HRC has done nothing for me.
Everywhere online, people in ‘activist power’ attempt to silence or drive out anyone who dares to voice anything out of line to the collective.
Submit to gatekeepers for my rights?
With the exception of a few states that need a good legal fight to be forced to start altering birth certificates, post-ops have seemed to do quite well.
Everything i have done, i have done on my own. A year ago i started out naive, friendly and ready to belong to ‘the community’. It took a while to experience treading the surface and having others claw at me and shove me underwater as a flotation device for themselves.
But i’m not tolerating it anymore.
Got to ante up to playYou know, it’s easy to throw stones. No doubt Mara isn’t always spot on.. but one of the rules of dealing with media is that you need to be willing and available, and she is. One of the other rules is that you should expect to be misquoted and misunderstood. If it doesn’t happen, it’s a near miracle.
I’m glad NCTE is around, and they do a pretty darn good job, in my book.
Mara’s comment seems to have different sides, as noted. Most reporters, and others for that matter, seem so focused on genital stuff, that some emphasis really does need to be placed on other aspects.
Rational?
And ‘incremental progress’ is the only way to achieve trans-inclusion.
I offered proof. You ignored it. Either counter it or go home.
and againwhat would you do that is constructive towards incremental progress on trans rights? What would be more rational behavior from NCTE? You have asked for Mara to resign. What would you suggest NCTE do? Thus far, you offer nothing substanive and your comments seem driven by some sort of personal dislike of Mara and her organization. If you have a beef with her, fine. Just realize that if you can’t do the job better or find someone who can, we would all be worse off if your wish was granted.
This Demonstrates Why “Transgender” Is A Confusing And Counterproductive TermPeople should use more specific language. For example they should be saying “transsexual man” in Chaz’s case.
I know this may be politically incorrect, but poor terminology (transgender) is biting us in the @ss.
We need to use more descriptive vocabulary:
Transsexual
GenderQueer
Cross-dresser
Androgyne
etc.
By insisting on the politically correct “transgender” we allow a LAZY public to group us all together as the same. All because we are too lazy to make a serious effort to educate the public. Please don’t say I am a separatist or elitist! I support everyone, but “transgender” is a completely inappropriate term applied to vastly different groups for convenience sakes.
I am not some nebulous “transgender”. I am a woman with a transsexual medical history.
.
I have no doubt that Mara was seriously misquoted by CNN.
On the other hand Mara has lots of bad positions on things.
In particular she (as a spokesperson of NCTE) does not unequivocally support the removal of GID from the DSM. And that is unforgivable for someone who is informed on the topic.
attitude or no attitude, I just need it
Heck, I would even take a grouchy surgery, just so long as I get it!
Pre-op, most likely for the rest of my lifeI am going to take a darker view of the situation.
Yes, our numbers are small, with even less ever being fortunate enough to have surgery, either from lack of funds, fear, or health reasons. In my case (I am an out full time TS) I doubt I will ever have the funds, and lately it seems inevitable that depression will eventually win.
My concerns…and I believe this to be true, maybe not, that post-ops really do not care, whether intentional or not, most seem to have the attitude that I got mine. Some will stay active in the community, and fight for “our” rights…but surgery? No, surgery is not a right or a cure-all for everything, but it is at lest for a number of us the only way we can align our body and soul.
I just feel that so many marginalize the surgery, most seem to be the transsexuals who already have it, or those who are happy without GRS.
Maybe the usage is the problemA Canadian Aboriginal is not the same culture as an Australian Aboriginal. Their languages are unrelated. Their cultural practices often vastly different. Their race is different too.
And yet they both may have been stolen from their families and rised in culture-detroying religious schools and suffered other human rights abuses because they were oppressed in their own lands by a colonial commonwealth power.
Should they get rid of the term Aboriginal? No. Just placing the other word in front of it does the job.
So maybe the problem with Transgender isn’t the term but it’s usage?
Besides, almost every catagory has sub-groups.
its worse, ATGHRC has actively sought to limit you. Purposefully.
They may be trying to fix that. Im good with it if they are. But they have 20 years of being an enemy to make up for.
It’ll be a while still.
I don’t think so.She said the same thing to the attendees of NCTE’s lobby days.
I am educated on the subject and am not unequivocal about it either — Its not a simple cut and dried deal, and it may hurt more than it helps.
As noted earlier, its not the most comfortable thought for many.
Heh. Me too.
Hey! I’m legitimate!sniffle
That hurts mah feelin’s. I’se not a bastard girl…
(ok, yeah, some might call me that, but its hyperbole, y’know)
Its easy to criticize anyoneOr anything, for that matter.
The solutions, however, are rarely simple. Much better that she and NCTE remain a fire burning as they do while NTAC remains and burns a fire as they do (and I will say that unless you were at one of the lobby days, well, ya ain’t burnin hard enough. I was at both, and I’m broker than all get out).
And then each of us lights and keeps a fire burning where we are, consistently fighting and multiple levels.
Some times we will win, sometimes we will lose. Some wins will leapfrog us, some losses will set us back.
Neither is important. What’s important is that it happens, and it happens everywhere, constantly, undyingly.
NCTE and NAC are not policy makers. THey are not powerful lobbies. NOr, for that matter, is HRC (the debacle from 2007 destroyed their cred not only among transfolks but also within the offices of congress as well).
NCTE keeps a fire always burning within sight of the White House. ANd it lacks a great deal of support among the wider trans population because its historically been a transsexual focused organization, losing a great deal of support from the larger potential people it purports to represent.
THey have a place.
But so do each of us, as individuals.
I’m with MaraThe general public does focus way too much on genital surgery, and that shouldn’t have any impact on how you respect someone’s identity. It’s very true that most trans people never have genital surgery, and who’s to say that ecconomics are the primary reason? The ones who don’t want it probably aren’t making much noise about their private decision. In any event, if .25% to .5% of the population is transgender, that’s 750k to 1.5 million Americans; even if we had the money, do we even have the doctors to give us all access to free genital surgery? Getting the general public to respect our identities regardless of genital status seems like the much more practical route.
NopeYou said: “Besides, almost every catagory has sub-groups.”
You missed the point entirely. ”Transgender” is not a real term, it’s a made up one that’s used as an umbrella term. Meaning it’s used to describe groups that have little or nothing to do with each other. ”Transgender” is NOT a group term. It’s a term of convenience only.
“Transgender” is a nebulous term that does nothing but cause confusion.
Another part of the problem is shame. Many transsexual people don’t want to admit that they were born :gasp: transsexual. They hide under the transgender label because they think it’s safer. It’s not really any safer and it’s much healthier if these folks deal with their shame issues. Actually it would help everyone if they abandoned this made up term and educated the public about the diversity that exists within the community instead pretending that we’re all the same.
The use of more specific terminology is needed and will prevent the gaffes that this thread is about.
Trans Men and SurgeryMara Keisling said, “Almost no transgender people ever have surgery.”
My initial impression was that she meant trans men in particular, and the statement would be partially correct in that context. Current estimates hold that about 90% of trans men don’t get genital reconstruction surgery. Though, I certainly wouldn’t call the 10% who do “almost [none].”
Most of us get a hysterectomy at some point, and insurance policies often cover it because uterine fibroids and ovarian cysts are quite common in guys who’ve been on testosterone for several years.
Almost all of us get (or desperately want) double mastectomy/chest reconstruction. That’s the Big Surgery for trans men, and the first one on our minds when we begin transition.
Genital surgery for trans men isn’t nearly as well-developed as it is for trans women. There are a variety of options to choose from however. It’s impossible to say how many of us don’t get genital surgery solely because of the cost. There are other reasons as well; fear of losing sexual sensation, contentment with what’s already there, especially after the changes testosterone causes, etc. Many more would certainly get at least some type of genital surgery if insurance covered the cost.
Mara’s statement unfortunately gives the impression that there’s only one type of surgery for trans men and that it’s genital surgery.
“Genial reassignment surgery”I realize that it’s a typo, but it made me smile.
“Given the Crappy Hand They Are Dealt?”How do you figure that? Explain.
All terms are inventedAll terms are ‘made up’. The language didnt spring whole from the void or from medusas severed head like pegasus.
little or nothing to do with one another?
How about just for starters: Discriminated against because of gender identity and expression?
Cause a bi-gender identity genderqueer or crossdresser suffers that as much or more as a binary-gender transsexual. Both have been subjected to the same unjust laws accross much of the world.
And as theres every chance there will be the same or related biological causality with a spectrum of effects just like there is a spectrum of autism with related variants like aspergers then there is the likelihood of a scientific reason for having an umbrella term remaining in perpetuity and growing with future evidence, though its possible it could just seem that way with only coincidental similarity… but until all forms of transgender get the same biological FMRI scans and brain autopsy studies we can only follow occams razor which means we must assume that it follows other biological neurolofical variations which have degrees of effect!
Thats not convenience, its scientific good practice till better evidence is found!
And does evidence of gay and lesbian cross-sex-typical neurology suggest that they too are biologically transgender? Making all of GLBT actually all subsets biologically of T?
The nonsensical internecine conflict and irrational divides and hatred of other subsets of transgender is just plain stupid. When there is a common cause there is a commonality QED.
Does my Black cousin only count as Black if his skin colour is darker than a certain shade? Does he have to leave the term Black behind if he stays out of the sun and grows paler than his older sister? Must he find a new name and term because of his paler skin?
The fact that there are variations in our community has no more bearing than the fact the Australian Aboriginal community has different degrees of skin tone, different languages, different tribal customs.
If they can have variety without having to divorce the mob from further down the ranges for having a different totem-ancestor-spirit and different language-base and join together to fight for Aboriginal Rights then we can too.
Transgender vs. Transsexual“Transgender” has become the term that the media and general public use, even when talking specifically about transsexuals. This is understandable–We live in a prudish society where people don’t like to say the word “sexual” in polite company. It could also be to our benefit, because the word “transsexual” is misleading in that it suggests a nebulous and unfathomable alternative sexuality. Even if people have a basic understanding about what a transsexual really is, they’re apt to still wonder about the “sexuality” part.
For what it’s worth, the definitive SOC for trans men, commonly called the Nick Gorton SOC, is called “Medical Therapy and Health Maintenance for Transgender Men” and deals almost exclusively with transsexual men. (You can find it on the web in PDF format at nickgorton.org).
I agreeAlso, the general public seems to have no trouble understanding that there’s a huge variety of people under the transgender umbrella.
explanationI’m speaking about NCTE having a crappy hand from the perspective of an interest group. They want policy change so they are automatically disadvantaged because the system is biased to the status quo given institutional rules. With respect to the assets held by the group, they are short on money and NCTE has few services that it can offer to candidates. Importantly, what politically relevant information NCTE possesses is in all likelihood relatively limited (I don’t know the latter for fact but it fits with what I do know).
With respect to their constituency, we are not an important electoral block anywhere in the nation. Additionally, the constituency is often maligned and misunderstood by the public. Furthermore, much of that constituency is invisible,
NCTE is also fairly new. It is still going through the process of gaining legitimacy in the eyes of lawmakers, staff, the media and its own constituency. Finally, it is very much a junior partner in a coalition. Trans rights are still not always viewed as part of the policy core in the coalition.
You’re much more understanding of the situation than Mara wasInasmuch as what you state (regarding the challenges of a trans group vs. a gay/lesbian — or as they like to sugar-cat it, PC style — LGBT organization), that portion is correct. It would’ve been great to have such insight from Mara herself when she first showed up on the scene.
Of course, she had her own philosophy: that we needed to — indeed must — deal with our so-called allies like HRC et. al. NTAC at the time worked well with our LGBT allies like NGLTF and PFLAG in trying to isolate HRC. Per Mara, this was (in 2002) “adversarial” and “negative,” thus she stepped in to work with HRC, and bring all other LGBT groups onto a same-page working relationship. Similarly, she also worked to isolate … NTAC from the likes of the LGBT groups we were theretofore working in conjunction with. So much for the philosophy.
Of course, all that changed when yet again she and the rest of us were burned by HRC. She at least spoke the words of the same negativity she dismissed and blasted in us many years before.
As for her organization personally, she was anything but disadvantaged. NTAC began on our own, out of pocket, memberships only (at a time when people were pissed at GPAC and in no mood to fund anything). Mara was of the GPAC ilk, trying to pull us back into that fold. Eventually, GPAC went “gender” and ditched the trans board members in the 2000 purge.
Mara then went back-channel with HRC, met with and had good rapport with them filling her special niche. Meanwhile the progress being made in media and even on the Hill pre-NCTE was beginning to become problematic for HRC. They helped set her up to supplant NTAC (as we were causing them media and congressional discomfort). Mara began raising funds even before becoming an entity. Once in, she’s been doing nothing for free (as activists, other than Riki Wilchins) had been doing prior for the advent of NCTE. She’s been well-paid for her work, it’s nothing that’s put her in a financial or career hardship.
As for her political capital, well that’s another story. She went where she went of her own volition. She put herself on the HRC side publicly from the start. She brought in board members who are also HRC board of governors. That this happened should’ve been no surprise to her. On more than one occasion, I warned her what the long-term trends of their behavior patterns had been. It was a gutsy gamble on her part, but a bad decision and one that she lost.
As for the credibility on Capitol Hill with legislators, I really wish I could provide you my personal contacts up there (I can’t.) However, I think if you develop a rapport with the staffers up there in the offices in the House and Senate, you will see a very different reaction than the one you’re apparently expecting. She’s shot her org’s credibility this past year. NTAC at least has that, albeit with the second-tier supporters (and keep in mind we make it up there once, maybe twice per session as we don’t have wherewithal to office and live in DC!). The primary LGBT coalition supporters still line up with HRC as their voice. None of them want much to do with Mara. Again, she did it herself.
You can buy what anyone tells you, but I encourage you (if possible) to make connections on the Hill and ask them. Hell, we’ve got one of our own up there. Ask him what the impression of her is.