Thank YouWhat you’ve expressed, and how you’ve expressed it, is an eloquent, potent antidote to the coarse discussion that’s getting some of us down.  It is beautiful, precise, logical, moving, and wise.
Thank you.

Please, go see the SOULFORCE site….these are Brave ACTIVISTS!…. but…here is their Mission Statment and Foundation:

Soulforce Vision Statement
“The purpose of Soulforce is freedom for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people from religious and political oppression through the practice of relentless nonviolent resistance.”
What is Soulforce?
Soulforce began in 1998 and is named after Gandhi’s term “satyagraha”, which means “truth force” or “life force.” Gandhi defined this as a plan of action that developed inner lives while working to transform society. Throughout history, these principles have guided many nonviolent justice movements – including Martin Luther King Jr.’s fight for racial equality.
Soulforce is determined to help end oppression against lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people; determined to help change the minds and hearts of religious and political leaders whose words and influence lead (directly and indirectly) to that oppression; and determined to be guided in our every action by the principles of relentless nonviolent resistance as lived and taught by M.K. Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr.. Soulforce ultimately seeks to challenge systems of injustice, not people.  We are seeking a community wherein all can share health, safety, and liberty.  One day we want to be in community with those in which we currently find ourselves divided. In the process of bringing hope and healing to our society, we find redirection and renewal for ourselves.

 
Six Sundays in May and June they are going into fundamentalists Churches and speaking to members one on one. Are you brave enough to do this?
Non-violence takes bravery. Anonymous hate messaging will only hurt our causes.

I agree we don’t need violence….But you can’t talk to these people in the same way Gandhi talked. Sometimes, you have to treat these people like the bullies they are. They don’t understand peace and reason like we do-they understand rough talk. AND-as long as it doesn’t get violent, a little rough talk might be necessary.  

I never understand the point of violent threats, including death threats,especially since the people making them virtually never have any intention of acting on them.  Back when I was much more actively involved in gay activism and journalism than I have been for the last few years, I used to receive death threats so regularly I just shrugged them off.  (My favorite one was from the gay Catholic manager of a local movie theater where the movie Priest was showing, after I reviewed it negatively.)  Granted, there are always a few psychos who do follow through with action, as we were reminded with the death of Dr. Tiller last weekend.  But most of the people who make these threats, like most bullies, are much too cowardly to actually put themselves on the line.  All their threats accomplish is to make their respective communities look bad.  How sad is it that some of them are members of our community?
Of course, all this is on the assumption that such threats were really made.  Sally Kern and Virginia Foxx have shown us that right-wing idiots are perfectly capable of fabricating such threats.  These reactionaries like nothing better than to pretend to be martyrs.

shockedI too was shocked to hear there were death threats. That undermines us and to those looking for justification to heap hate upon our community ample excuse. Struggle smarter.

I could only listen to a few minutes of the original showbefore I felt sick to my stomach (I did read many on the quotes from the first show in other articles). Autumn, as usual you have done a great job here. After listening to this junk, I could understand anger in our community. I was angry, hell, I was furious. But I stepped away from the computer for a bit to gather my thoughts and refused to send a hate filled message to them. I know it will only work against us in the end. I’ve seen it to many times. People, you have to remember that these bigots will do anything to step away from any responsibility by using your hate and death threats back onto us. Yes, they were irresponsible in the way they conducted that show, but we have to be responsible for our actions in this two. If we are not, it will make it easier for them to shove our movement down ever further. And to be honest, I don’t think we can afford to loose any footing that we have gained in the last several years.
Thanks again Autumn.

Death ThreatsI’ve worked in talk radio and I actually find the “death threats” suspect and I will tell you why.  On one show I was a PA on, the host, (this was an FM Rock station) when she wasn’t getting any “controversial” responses would have a producer write up a supposed “email” from a listener so it would appear she was generating some controversy.  Look, if these three ass-hats on 98.5 are willing to spout this kind of hate, then, they will LIE and say they are getting death threats.  It happens all the time in right-wing talk radio.  The ones on the far-right are so comfortable in their jobs they will lie about anything.  Have their staff go and post bogus stuff on their blogs, etc. to incite something or to manipulate the situation and play the martyr card.  I doubt very seriously any LGBT person issued a death threat.  More likely, the staff made up the posts so the “hosts” could further malign us.  Remember, these people lie for a living.  Never, ever believe anything they do, say or create to be factual.  
Peace Out.

I had the same thought. Really, who would have sent them death threats?I find it hard to believe.

I understand what you say in my headBut when these putrid thugs advocated hate and threats against children…..being nice and civil went out the window.
I tried to not go to violent imagry, but I did say I hope they got jeered at and spit on in public.
When they dump their sh*t on adults, OK we’re big boys and girls…but the thought of them hurting kids, I couldn’t reign it in.
If there is any solace in what they did, it’s when innocent victims of children are harmed public opinion sways against them. The children they set dogs and firehouses on, the churches blown up which killed little girls, National guard needing to escort Black children into schools, the hatred leveled against Ryan White….all changed the world.

Of course that’s what happened.But just sit and absorb the energy wasted at you with finger-wagging and hand-wringing anyway.
Versus doing something like, i don’t know, contacting sponsors and expressing outrage.

Ummm…I’m refraining from what I want to say here. Too great a potential for it to be taken out of context.
Death threats are something I get everyday.  And I’m not a radio DJ.
i find it hard to work up much sympathy.
I don’t send them, but I don’t give them much credence, either.

I vented my anger here, not to the stationI also wrote almost every sponsor, and the station contact information, not threatening anything but boycott if these two thugs aren’t fired, and the station apologises.
btw if you imagine nothing worse than spiting on these two crossed my mind, but wasn’t typed….you underestimate me.

yepI agree with this. Sarcasm and insults are very appropriate in some (many) circumstances. And you’re right, sometimes when you are talking to a stupid bigot, it’s the only thing they will understand anyway.
I also think some opinions are so idiotic that they simply do not deserve to be addressed in a civil manner. Doing so would give them more credence than they deserve.
Death threats, however, are always ALWAYS moronic. I have absolutely no respect whatsoever for anyone who uses death threats.

What about Dawn?Dawn threw in no hate, and was furious about the entire conversation… Yet no problem throwing her in too?
And the “They are obviously lying” argument…  I’ve seen it from people who never experienced a happy marriage, telling people who profess having one as liars.  It is something in human nature to go to that conclusion when they do not want to accept that their experience isn’t the end all and be all.
But its the easy answer, isn’t it?  The show didn’t receive any death threats, they made them up.  The comments to blogposts advocating that the radio station be burned down, or similar, were all written by the show’s two producers, or perhaps RAD themselves.  Dawn wasn’t serious when she said she’d walk right of the show if she thought Rob or Arnie were advocating violence against children, she’s just saying that to garner sympathy.  
People aren’t born homosexual or transgender, they choose a lifestyle.  Hrumph!!
I stand back in shock.  Obviously death threats are not to be taken lightly, even if most won’t be acted on.  Dr. Tillman proves that.  Yet for Dr. Tillman its serious, for someone we disagree with their silly…  Two standards for two different people….  No, that’s bigotry, please, PLEASE, do not allow that start of incremental loss of your soul, please do not allow your pain and anger to allow you to start becoming that which you oppose.

non-violence necessary, but….this quote, “We will not only win freedom for ourselves; we will appeal to your heart and conscience that we will win you in the process, and our victory will be a double victory.”
Does it really make sense to believe we will ever win the heart and conscience of Arnie and Rob? Sure there is always “a chance”. Nothing is ever 0% or 100%. An impossibility cannot be proven. But in terms of probability, and realistic best guess…Arnie and Rob, trans-equality champions?
Not quite…
Now winning over some of their audience/potential audience – more likely. But they need to have a better predisposition than Rob and Arnie.
Agree?

remember,no physical substance is willfully and infinitely plastic, not even the human brain matter

I don’t understand.Respectively, I don’t understand your sentiment.
Gandhi’s approach is great when facing a cruel and tyrannical government.  But when we face mere bullies it doesn’t?

LEAVE CHILDREN out of this cr*pLike I said adults can cope with this crud, we’ll tell ya to go f*ck yourself. Children don’t react that way, especially when it’s a parent doing it to them, they internalize it, and feel they deserve it.

Can we win Arnie and Rob over?Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow.  Maybe it won’t be one of us who win them over, but someone who matters to them?
In any case, hatred only hurts the hater.  I don’t have time to hate someone for hating me;  I would rather spend my energies shielding someone else weaker than myself from them.  I would rather help build an LGBT child up into a strong person, capable of not only resisting hatred, but extinguishing it with love.

Sally Kerns seems to set the model for the hatemongersI recall Sally Kerns claiming death threats and they the OSBI investigated and found no such evidence. An it seems to be the Soup dejur for the hatemongers like this radio crew. But they influence the mentally ill and sub population who can’t separate reality from rhetoric. IE the man who just murdered the Doc in Wichita Kans. Or the Guy in Tenn who shot up the church. We have free speech and all here but we are also limited by speech that will endanger lives. Like yelling Fire in a crowd. I see what these shows do as no less dangerous. All one has to do is look around and count the bodies as they hit the floor.. How long before some accountability is imposed on those who YELL FIRE in a crowded theater, or on the air ways.. There should be some limits on public speaking that evoke violence. That being said maybe we should temper what we say and write about the Right or some day some Ill person might do like the knuckle draggers of the far right, and go off like John Rudolf.

Nothing about DawnOne of my central points wasn’t addressed…  Why is it okay to lump Dawn in with her partners?  Most of the time ignorance of her position seems to be prevalent cause of such.  What is so hard about unequivocally getting Dawn out of the cross hairs of the anger?
We are concerned about an incitement to violence, with the example of throwing a shoe, knowing that incitement would mean an escalation in those incited.  Yet somehow through your legitimate anger, you are able to find legitimacy in inciting people to spit on the trio, by passing a photo with all three, including Dawn..  I know that if someone was angry enough to spit, they may angry enough to do more.
So, all I have heard is that it is okay to incite others to spit on Dawn, though she is innocent.  I have not heard the admission that once incited, it will escalate into a place where someone may be injured.  Dawn could be attacked by someone who thinks she hates transgender children, even though she doesn’t…
I worry that my horse has ceased to neigh, and perhaps I may have ceased to make unique points.  I just would like to end off this post with a bit of a personal note.
I was in eighth grade when I started to come out to myself.  I was in a bathroom stall at school, very confused and scared.  (I think I may have just gotten out of gym class.)  I wrote on the stall wall in small letters “I’m Gay” and looked at it.  After a moment of looking at the anonymous admission I became filled with terror, not only afraid that someone someone would be able to link it to me, but terrified that I admitted it.  I smudged the words away and hurried out of the restroom.
A couple of years later, while in High School, is when I faced my suicidal time.  While I didn’t have any direct attempts, I had begun to huff paint.  Huffing out of a plastic bag made me feel euphoric and lose all touch with reality.  I knew it could kill me, inhalant abuse was the only time I saw a death on that old show, Rescue 911.  I knew that each and every time I was basically playing Russian roulette.  But I didn’t care, I wanted to float away and not come back.
The last time I huffed paint I used red paint and really overdid it.  When I came back to reality my bed, pillow, hands and face were covered in red paint.  I still remember clearly the shower I took, how the paint didn’t feel like paint, how it felt like blood.  In the after-haze it seemed like I had done to myself some awful, gory injury.  
After it was all done, I got dressed and sat on the front porch.  A family friend came over and immediately asked me what was wrong.  I told her nothing and she looked at me for a minute.  Before she went inside she sat with me and told me that she cared for me and loved me, and that she would never ever want anything to harm me.  She told me that she was there for me.
That was the day I feel I was born again.  The creeping death of my life that started the days I was learning I was gay… it was gone.  I felt I had worth again, and my life began on a path of continuing strength.
That moment is what we must remember for our youth.  Bringing that moment to a single person who needs to hear it is worth more than being able to shut up a hundred Rob and Arnies.  
And in the end I fear that if we allow anger to consume us, we will loose opportunities to provide that rebirth to those who need it.

Assuming you are correct that the death threats did notreally come from the LGBT community, and that they were fabricated or came from people working for the station / show to generate controversy, the LGBT community STILL needs to publicly repudiate the idea of physical violence, and the threats of physical violence.
In fact, I’d argue that that the threats might be fabricated is PRECISELY the reason that the LGBT community must repudiate the idea of physical violence, and the threat of physical violence publicly.
If the bigots are using the threat of violence, the incitement to violence, to win public support, then, the LGBT community must ensure that they do NOT win public support.  

My e-mailTo the station manager didn’t express any sort of violence, or even a call to have the Show Hosts banned from the airwaves.   I feel that sort of rhetoric is completely counterproductive.  
But believe you me, you come after me, and mine, in an aggressive manner, I will respond in kind.
Non-Violence only goes so far.

And as a completely different asideWhen did anger become a BAD thing?
It’s what you DO with that anger that defines you.
I’ve never touched another person in anger, and in most cases will take the time to sit down, when I’m really pissed off, and think about things before I will respond.
Anger without THOUGHT is the problem, not anger itself.  
No Anger — Banality, and that helps NO ONE.

Sarcasm and insults are very appropriate?Can you elaborate?  When are sarcasm and insults a better way to address something than attacking lies, or slander, or stupidity directly?  What good does name-calling, for instance, ever do?

Thanx, Doc …for sharing that story.  It made my morning.

if we allow anger to consume usYes, thanks for sharing that, couldn’t agree more.  We can be angry without stooping or being destructive.

good point,protecting the innocent from the guilty is worth more than revenge against the guilty. This is ultimately a movement about securing every individual’s right to be themselves, to the fullest, as long as they don’t hurt others. Revenge might be a way of hurting others (though punishment, including social ostracism, is an important part of any moral system. But that has its costs…).
Maybe, someone who matters to Rob,Arnie will win them over. Maybe. At any rate, our refusal to stop our own lives should wear down the energy of those who may agree/half agree with Rob Arnie, if not Rob Arnie themselves.
It goes without saying, we all here agree, that we have to keep pointing out the harm that people like these do. How we might “love our enemy” is I think a personal matter, that might require an expanded definition of love. Perhaps “loving one’s enemy” means never crossing a certain line, even though you feel justified anger that you will never – or NEED never – try to get rid of.
I don’t think we need to feel the same affection for Arnie Rob that we feel for those who are truly our loved ones. But we definitely have to restrain ourselves from crossing lines: no hate mail, no intimidation, no cheap arguments, no lies, no rumors. We DO have a right to call for a boycott (whether that’s effective is another matter).
So that’s my proposed definition of “loving one’s enemy”.  

Sfalkin, I fully agreeBatman once said anger is good, but only when tempered by justice.

Wait, what?

And the “They are obviously lying” argument…  I’ve seen it from people who never experienced a happy marriage, telling people who profess having one as liars.  It is something in human nature to go to that conclusion when they do not want to accept that their experience isn’t the end all and be all.

This is such a bizarre, insulting, self-defeating statement that i almost don’t know where to start. Almost.
Comparing a happy marriage to hate-speech DJs in an attempt to try and prop up a lame analogy is strange enough. The insult arrives in several forms.
You make a declarative statement about ‘human nature’ (which itself is not true), and then state ‘they’ do not want to accept, rather than ‘we’. i’m not sure what you’re implying here. That you are sophisticated and evolved above the rest of ‘us’, which automatically makes your opinion the ‘right’ one?
Are you assuming that i have been lied to before, and therefore i frame all my reactions within an emotional response just because i don’t agree with you?
Right-wing fundamentalist conservatives utilize completely fabricated statements as a tactic to advance their agendas all the time. So much so that politically, they’ve removed any concept of morality from it.
It’s Republican think-tank 101, and frankly seeing people on this side of the fence accept it blindly without questioning it first is a little baffling and disheartening.
A post on a board is not proof. Verify actual threats for a quantitative comparison to any others they receive on a monthly basis. There is your statistical, ‘subjective’ reality.
But then, pass up a good opportunity to make a public display of how philosophically sophisticated we are?

…their experience isn’t the end all and be all.

That’s true. But since it’s ‘their’ rather than ‘our’, you don’t seem to understand that the same truth applies to you.
As a side note, it may be ironic that in the rush to emulate Gandhi in defense of children, you are only affirming in a few right-wing extremist minds their belief that LGBT have a pedophilic streak.
On a rational level, i believe that unless the circumstances are perfectly aligned, non-violence doesn’t work when overhauling a major system of violent persecution. On an philosophical level, i cannot get behind someone who stated, “The Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.”
No, we shouldn’t be committing acts of violence. But this whole Gandhi comparison is just unwarranted and rediculous.
My hero since childhood has always been Steven Biko. Guess i’ll go punch a British soldier.

*blank stare*That’s great that you contacted every sponsor. i hope everyone here does.
As for imagining you doing something or making an estimation of you, i didn’t. You never crossed my mind at all. You know the old saying, if it’s not about you, don’t try and make it about you?

Loving One’s Enemy…That’s a wonderful definition.  :-)

Any updates on this story?

HeyLaugh all you want, sometimes comic books are good sources for things.

My Inarticulation..

This is such a bizarre, insulting, self-defeating statement that i almost don’t know where to start. Almost.
Comparing a happy marriage to hate-speech DJs in an attempt to try and prop up a lame analogy is strange enough. The insult arrives in several forms.

I did worry that I was not doing a very good job of articulating my point.  
Perhaps if I put it this way.  I would not have brought the point up if I was feeling the argument, “While I have no evidence that they are lying, I think it would be appropriate they provide the physical evidence considering the current environment.”  But rather I perceive the argument, “Obviously they are lying!  They’re right-wing, hateful fundamentalist wackos.  DUH!”

You make a declarative statement about ‘human nature’ (which itself is not true), and then state ‘they’ do not want to accept, rather than ‘we’. i’m not sure what you’re implying here. That you are sophisticated and evolved above the rest of ‘us’, which automatically makes your opinion the ‘right’ one?

I usually take a long time to complete a post, and re-read it several times…  I am a human, and I have my own flaws and have my own times I’ve caught myself jumping to the conclusion that someone I disagree with is being dishonest about something just because I so strongly disagree with them.  ’We’ would have been a far more appropriate pronoun.

Right-wing fundamentalist conservatives utilize completely fabricated statements as a tactic to advance their agendas all the time. So much so that politically, they’ve removed any concept of morality from it.

But the RAD show isn’t right-wing or fundamentalist…  I could understand carrying over previously proven acts of dishonesty to others who have the same personality… but honestly I have not seen many who recognize that this show isn’t a Hannity or O’Riley clone.  (An example would be when Terri Schiavo was in the news.  It was one of the rare times all three members on the show agreed: this was a private and deeply sorrowful family matter and everyone needed to butt the hell out.)

It’s Republican think-tank 101, and frankly seeing people on this side of the fence accept it blindly without questioning it first is a little baffling and disheartening.

I would just please ask that you understand I’m not just blindly believing in their honesty.  I’ve been listening to this show fairly regularly for about ten years.  The last couple years I typically listen to one to three hours per day.  I’ve laughed my ass off, I’ve sobbed, I’ve been furious, I’ve had my viewpoints affirmed and I’ve had them challenged, and sometimes changed.  With all due respect, how can someone who most likely hasn’t listened to the equivalent of a full show (five hours) be so confident in their dishonesty?

As a side note, it may be ironic that in the rush to emulate Gandhi in defense of children, you are only affirming in a few right-wing extremist minds their belief that LGBT have a pedophilic streak.

For a few minutes I didn’t have any idea to what you were referring to, then I remembered the one or two documentaries that actually mentioned his sleeping with young girls.  If right-wing fundamentalists forget their own belief of original sin and are incapable of separating one’s good from their evil, then they have lost touch with their own beliefs and they are of no consequence to me.
I’m more of a MLKjr guy anyway.

On a rational level, i believe that unless the circumstances are perfectly aligned, non-violence doesn’t work when overhauling a major system of violent persecution. On an philosophical level, i cannot get behind someone who stated, “The Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.”

I disagree.  Your quotes seem to equate nonviolence with compliance.  However I would put forward that the noviolent approach was all about resistance.  What would the course of history been if thousands of jews all across Germany refused to wear the yellow star, but made and proudly wore their own badge declaring themselves jews?  What would have been different if all across major German cities, jews banded together to sit in circles and block major intersections?  What would the difference have been if instead of quietly going into the Ghettos and beyond to die out of sight and mind, they willingly allowed themselves to be shot years earlier in that major intersection for all the world to see?
This last part of the conversation reminds me of one of my favorite movies, Charlie Chaplin’s “The Great Dictator.”   It was a movie that Chaplin was only able to make because he was largely independent of the studios, who at the time didn’t want in such a project as at the time the US was neutral with Germany.  (We entered the war by time of release, and thus attitudes had changed.)  At the time lambasting and making fun of Hitler wasn’t exactly cheered.  
In it the jewish barber, not remembering the last few years due to amnesia, displays great dismay that his people are not resisting.  I’d recommend the movie to anyone who hasn’t seen it.  If you don’t have time to catch the movie I’d definitely recommend finding the “I Don’t Want to be a Dictator” speech on youtube.
I hope I didn’t get too off track. :O)  Best Regards.

My HeroI’ve not been totally silent on this issue, but let me tell you something about My Hero:
My Father started life as a member of a prominent and political family in Philadelphia who lost everything with stock crash/depression . . .moved from the east coast in a flat bed truck with 5 kids hanging on for a trip across the country to Oregon . . .they built a farm & log home . . . My Dad struggled with poverty and hardships that are unimaginable for me, but got through school & enlisted in the army.  Eventually ended up a Lieutenant Colonel during the Korean War. . .the war hero had 2 kids (my Sister and I) with his first wife & raised another 6 with his second.
My Dad struggled with gender identity his entire life & became my true hero when, at 65, took the steps to be the person SHE always was. She is my hero.
Today, I look at this conversation with sadness. I’m embarrassed with my community of GLBT who feel personal attacks are the answer to changing societal attitudes and understanding.
I feel shame that we can’t seem to undertake a civil debate without name-calling & threats.  So, Yes . . ..”SHAME ON US”.
We cannot educate or change minds with vitriolic attacks. We change minds with civil conversation & meeting our neighbors. Our neighbors aren’t just next-door; sometimes they are radio hosts in a far away land, sometimes it means reaching out to our own family members who reject another for lack of understanding. We’re not always successful but it’s important to keep the conversation open.
Autumn gets my honest and heartfelt thanks for reaching out to this radio trio & having a conversation that needs to be heard. We don’t always agree, but she is spot on and deserves our appreciation.

LGBTs get to have our emotions…..ALL OF THEMNot every action, or what we express has to be a factor in whether it moves us closer as a minority to equality.
We get to laugh at being insulting, and sarcastic, and sometimes un PC.
We get to be hurt, and scared, and depressed.
We get to be furious, and vengeful too.
If all you do is perfectly try to live in tune with what nostalgictily we believe MLK or Gandhi lived their lives, we will miss a lot, and probably fail miserably.
I’m sure MLK felt hopless at times, he probably said things among his friends or with Coretta, which wouldn’t be quoted on MLK to school kids…he was a MAN, not an angel.

GLAAD updates   http://glaadblog.org/2009/06/0…

YESOur children are living in a country where they SEE & HEAR neighborhood families voting for or against each other, they SEE & HEAR how we are too horrible of a people to serve openly in the military, they kill themselves due to the hateful America they SEE & HEAR, and they are murdered for being who they are.
Seriously, Queers – think about it.  
How many other parents would sit back and passively, “peacefully protest”?    If I’m not mistaken, your average pacifist mother would purchase a gun and TAKE PEOPLE OUT if they threatened her children’s safety in the world.   In America it’s called HONOR, DIGNITY, PRIDE & GLORY  (or whatever) - know what I mean?    
FAMILY is worth defending – FAMILY is worth FIGHTING to protect, yet we allow our family and ourselves to be ABUSED in EVERY POSSIBLE WAY in America.   We shrug at the CRUEL SUFFERING that happens regularly, afraid to show the EXTREMELY JUSTIFIED ANGER AND RAGE that we seem light years from owning.  
Whom is really the sick one here?
PS – I’m not saying get a gun and go bat-shit crazy on HETS, but I AM saying that extreme situations call for extreme measures, like more radical civil disobedinece and tax revolt.

Message sent to the station managerGood morning,
The following is a copy of a letter I am sending to each of your corporate sponsors. Your radio show has created the very real potential for harm to my child and I urge you to make the right social, moral and business decision.  Please, use the tools at your disposal to repair the damage that you have done.  I listened to the follow up show, which quite frankly was nothing more than rationalizations and a careful avoidance of responsibility. You can do much, much better and actually use your communication media to do good in the world if you so choose.
Example letter, sent to AT&T:
Dear Ms. Astros and Ms. McCain,
I am sure by now you are aware of the controversy surrounding a recent radio show on the Sacramento, California station KRXQ and their treatment of transgendered children.  I am writing to you as a parent of one of these kids.
These are our children, and they are not the least bit “confused” about their gender.  Our “almost five” year old  daughter, assigned male at birth, knew her gender at four years old, just as any other child does at that stage of development. It just didn’t match her body. Whether I have to use vinegar or honey, no one is going to make my child doubt her worth as a person or her Self. It is my job to educate the world around her and as best I can, to influence the situations and environments she finds herself in, but that is the role of any parent.  It’s her job to be a kid, to enjoy her childhood and to grow up to be an adult that is well adjusted, happy, and can love and make good choices on her own.
The radio station whose show you sponsor promoted not only the hatred of transgendered children, but went so far as to encourage physical violence against them by adults.  They recently issued an apology that quite frankly did nothing to repair the damage they have done.  There is no excuse for your company to encourage or promote this behavior, as it presents a danger to my child. I beg of you to strongly encourage the station to not only put a stop to it but also to encourage the educational training of management and the radio personalities involved.  A public media outlet such as KRXQ has the potential to help children instead of hurt them.
Finally, I cannot in good conscience continue to utilize AT&T products and services knowing that you promote this violent, hate filled activity against innocent children such as our daughter.  If you cannot convince the station to publicly repair the damage it has done, I will actively and strongly encourage every person, company or organization with which I have influence to seek alternatives to your products.
Thank you for your time,
Sara

Snapple and Chicote Restaurants have cancelled their ads

and batman knows all about revenge feelingsOur anger and rage is our power…but it is also our discipline, meant to be directed by a good brain

Chipotle….sorry, Sonic dropped their ads too……YAY!!!!!!!!   http://glaadblog.org/2009/06/0…

About Dawn and the Morning ShowListening to the show it quickly became obvious that Dawn’s purpose is to raise the opposing argument and then be slapped down, often simply for being a woman.  The implied argument is one of, “you are getting too excited and acting like a woman”.  She is allowed to argue, then the two guyly-guys simply cut her off either without an actual rebuttal or worse, with more bigottry.  She then expresses her frustration by saying, “Uuuuugh!” and once again the two men are reinforced as the authority of the group.  It’s quite formulamatic, once you listen for it…  

YepThat’s pretty much their format, always has been.

Alright.

But the RAD show isn’t right-wing or fundamentalist.

This is my fault. There was an entire point i was going to make about corporate media provoking controversy for coverage, and using essentially the same tactics right wing media does. In my rush to get to work, i forgot to make the connection. My bad.

With all due respect, how can someone who most likely hasn’t listened to the equivalent of a full show (five hours) be so confident in their dishonesty?

Because harmful is harmful. Period. Read what they said. Don’t listen. i made a ‘Grandpa’ analogy on the last post about these DJs a couple of pages back. i stand by it. You’ve become too emotionally involved with them to see their actions objectively.
Which isn’t a crime…it just means you’re human. It’s situations just like this when it takes friends you trust to step in and let you know that you’re not quite seeing it clearly.

If right-wing fundamentalists forget their own belief of original sin and are incapable of separating one’s good from their evil, then they have lost touch with their own beliefs and they are of no consequence to me.

This is spiritual non-sense to an atheist like me, and concepts like ‘good’ and ‘evil’ are a whole world of their own for discussion. i’ll let it be.

I disagree.  Your quotes seem to equate nonviolence with compliance.  However I would put forward that the noviolent approach was all about resistance.

“…should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea…”
Seems pretty compliant to me. At any rate, it’s not my quote or my philosophy, it was Gandhi’s. i’m not going to argue by proxy for you.
i am going to try and find that speech you mention at some point. It sounds interesting.
i’m in a fantastic mood over the product endorsement cancellations. Best regards to you too!

Look Up, HannahThe Great Dictator was a movie made by Charlie Chaplin; he started working on the film in 1938 and it was released in 1940.  Shooting began in September 1939, one week after the start of WWII.  This movie was his first non-silent film.  In it he plays both a jewish barber with amnesia who doesn’t remember the recent years of growing persecution and Hynkel the satire of Hitler.  At the end of the movie the barber is confused for Hynkel and is thrust upon the stage to give a speech to the people upon preparations for invasion of the next country over.  Below is the speech given by the barber.
——————————————————–
Schulz: Speak – it is our only hope.
The Jewish Barber (Charlie Chaplin’s character): Hope…
I’m sorry but I don’t want to be an Emperor – that’s not my business – I don’t want to rule or conquer anyone. I should like to help everyone if possible, Jew, gentile, black man, white. We all want to help one another, human beings are like that.
We all want to live by each other’s happiness, not by each other’s misery. We don’t want to hate and despise one another. In this world there is room for everyone and the earth is rich and can provide for everyone.
The way of life can be free and beautiful.
But we have lost the way.
Greed has poisoned men’s souls – has barricaded the world with hate; has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed.
We have developed speed but we have shut ourselves in: machinery that gives abundance has left us in want. Our knowledge has made us cynical, our cleverness hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little: More than machinery we need humanity; More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost.
The aeroplane and the radio have brought us closer together. The very nature of these inventions cries out for the goodness in men, cries out for universal brotherhood for the unity of us all. Even now my voice is reaching millions throughout the world, millions of despairing men, women and little children, victims of a system that makes men torture and imprison innocent people. To those who can hear me I say “Do not despair”.
The misery that is now upon us is but the passing of greed, the bitterness of men who fear the way of human progress: the hate of men will pass and dictators die and the power they took from the people, will return to the people and so long as men die [now] liberty will never perish…
Soldiers – don’t give yourselves to brutes, men who despise you and enslave you – who regiment your lives, tell you what to do, what to think and what to feel, who drill you, diet you, treat you as cattle, as cannon fodder.
Don’t give yourselves to these unnatural men, machine men, with machine minds and machine hearts. You are not machines. You are not cattle. You are men. You have the love of humanity in your hearts. You don’t hate – only the unloved hate. Only the unloved and the unnatural. Soldiers – don’t fight for slavery, fight for liberty.
In the seventeenth chapter of Saint Luke it is written ” the kingdom of God is within man ” – not one man, nor a group of men – but in all men – in you, the people.
You the people have the power, the power to create machines, the power to create happiness. You the people have the power to make life free and beautiful, to make this life a wonderful adventure. Then in the name of democracy let’s use that power – let us all unite. Let us fight for a new world, a decent world that will give men a chance to work, that will give you the future and old age and security. By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power, but they lie. They do not fulfil their promise, they never will. Dictators free themselves but they enslave the people. Now let us fight to fulfil that promise. Let us fight to free the world, to do away with national barriers, do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men’s happiness.
Soldiers – in the name of democracy, let us all unite!
Look up! Look up! The clouds are lifting – the sun is breaking through. We are coming out of the darkness into the light. We are coming into a new world. A kind new world where men will rise above their hate and brutality.
The soul of man has been given wings – and at last he is beginning to fly. He is flying into the rainbow – into the light of hope – into the future, that glorious future that belongs to you, to me and to all of us. Look up. Look up.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…
(Long Version, but I wanted to make sure I got the last part with Hannah.)
—————–

Regarding Gandhi,and the quote about voluntary sacrifice:
it isn’t compliance. The goal, the point of that sacrifice, is NOT the same as what the killers want. The goal, is to force everyone, non Nazis, and even the Nazis themselves, to confront what is being done. The last thing the killers, the bigots, the fear mongers, want, is for their opponents to be seen as fearless saints.

On a rational level, i believe that unless the circumstances are perfectly aligned, non-violence doesn’t work when overhauling a major system of violent persecution.

On a rational level, how often has a weaker minority ever managed to enact lasting just change via violence?
The argument against violence is not simply based on a basis of ethics. It is also based on material results.
A study by Maria Stephan and Eric Chenoweth, available here:http://www.nonviolent-conflict.org
PDFIS3301_pp007-044_Stephan_Chenoweth.pdf, claims that

Our findings show that major nonviolent campaigns have achieved success 53 percent of the time, compared with 26 percent for violent resistance campaigns,

First, a campaign’s commitment to nonviolent methods enhances its domestic and international legitimacy and encourages more broad-based participation in the resistance, which translates into increased pressure being brought to bear on the target

Second, whereas governments easily justify violent counterattacks against armed insurgents, regime violence against nonviolent movements is more likely to backfire against the regime

Non violence is NOT just a matter of ethics, a matter of philosophy. It is also a pragmatic approach based on material results.

Hi.

On a rational level, how often has a weaker minority ever managed to enact lasting just change via violence?

We’re the United States of America. We began as thirteen little colonies with a hopeless struggle against a tyrannical empire.
i know you asked ‘how often’, not ‘when’. But living in the US can have a powerful influence on that specific subject.
When one with views similiar to yours proclaims ethical superiority, it is empty wind. Subjective and meaningless. You make some very compelling points with comparative results. They are a weakness of mine, and i tip my little hat to you.
However.
Through the ‘higher level’ of ‘evolved thought’ you seem to be promoting, your philosophy seems to hover dangerously close to a paradox of upholding end results over human life.
At what point is it enough? When have enough lives been lost? What measurement do you use to determine the value of a (theoretical) beneficial end result against lives lost? Is there a number? Is it countless?
Armed conflict is not always the answer. In my insignificant little opinion, it’s very rarely the answer. But sometimes, unfortunately, it is the only answer. For this i point squarely at the Allied/Axis conflict.
When armed conflict is not the answer but implemented anyway, disaster results. For this i point at…well, everything since WWII.
i have failed to see the methods you promote achieve any results with Tibet. And that depresses me immensely.

The struggle of the 13 colonies was NOT hopelessThat empire, had its home base thousands of miles away, over a HUGE ocean. It had the rest of much of its empire, also thousands of miles away, over many oceans and seas. This was in an era when traveling by sea required the cooperation of the wind and the waves.
The idea that the 13 colonies were poor little underdogs fighting against some HUMONGOUS tyrant is a MYTH.
The 13 colonies were fighting against British forces that were in North Eastern America.
Meanwhile, the 13 colonies were fighting on their homeground. All they had to do was to survive and hang on. They did not need to attack Liverpool, Manchester, London, over thousands of miles of ocean.  Whereas the British had to crush the resistance, with limited resources, and limited men. It is much easier to fight a defensive war, on your home territory, than an offensive war, with your lines of supply stretching over a HUGE ocean.
Having a tyrannical empire is of little help in a war, if you cannot leverage the resources of that tyrannical empire.
Logistics are a HUGELY important part of war. The 13 colonies were not really a weaker force.

At what point is it enough? When have enough lives been lost? What measurement do you use to determine the value of a (theoretical) beneficial end result against lives lost? Is there a number? Is it countless?

Well let me ask you this:
At what point is it enough, that you will be willing to consider non violence? When have enough lives been lost, that you will consider non violence? What measurement do you use to determine the value of a (theoretical) beneficial end result against lives lost, before you consider non violence? Is there a number, before you consider non violence? Is it countless, before you consider non violence?

Armed conflict is not always the answer. In my insignificant little opinion, it’s very rarely the answer. But sometimes, unfortunately, it is the only answer. For this i point squarely at the Allied/Axis conflict.
When armed conflict is not the answer but implemented anyway, disaster results. For this i point at…well, everything since WWII.

I’m not saying that armed conflict is never the answer. Armed conflict succeeded in Vietnam. The resistance expelled 2 foreign invading forces.
Nor do I pretend that I can have the courage, the fearlessness, the conviction in non violence, that Gandhi advocated.
All I am saying here is that practically, especially when you are weaker, physical violence is very unlikely to result in just and lasting change.
Re WW2, The Allies were not a weaker force. Again, the thousands of miles of ocean, east and west, gave the US a big advantage. Furthermore, as often happens, the Russians were / are grossly underestimated. There was no chance that Nazi Germany could win a war of attrition against Russia, and all (invasive) wars against Russia invariably end up as wars of attrition, while also fighting the US and the UK in the west.
To defend Mother Russia, Russians were willing to fight city by city, street by street. Look at Stalingrad. Look at the siege of Leningrad / blockade of Leningrad. I’m not talking about just soldiers here. I’m talking about even musicians, writers, intellectuals.
The Russians pretty much won the war against Nazi Germany.

i have failed to see the methods you promote achieve any results with Tibet. And that depresses me immensely.

Well, let me ask you this: supposing Tibet chooses to use violent means against China. Do you seriously think that they have ANY chance of winning? Tibet against China? They will be CRUSHED. And China will use the violence to justify even MORE, even WORSE, repressive measures. China will use the violence to completely and utterly wipe out all Tibetan identity: the people, the culture. The justification used would be that the Tibetan resistance are “terrorists”.
An example, I have failed to see violence achieve any results for Tamils in Sri Lanka. The Sri Lankan government used the violence of the LTTE to bomb civilians. The Sri Lankan government used the violence of the LTTE to set up concentration camps. To force Tamil civilians into those concentration camps. To detain and arrest doctors who reported on the bombing of civilians. To intimidate journalists, via beating and even killings, do an internet search on Lasantha Wickrematunge, who do not report the party line.
In way too many countries, I have seen violence fail. In way too many countries, I have seen the resistance end up being portrayed as terrorists.
Furthermore, whenever violence happens, the violent extremists, on the resistance, nearly always end up in power. In many cases, the LTTE is an example, they attacked other Tamils too, the extremists have no qualms about  repressing, attacking, killing, other groups of the resistance.
Even when you win, you often end up overthrowing one repressive regime, and replacing it with another. You become what you fought.

OK….i could counter-point you on everything you have just stated (and point out twice how you are actually arguing against yourself).
But it’s obvious you are operating on what i’ll just call a ‘different reality’ from mine, and leave it alone. i don’t believe anything productive will result from any more time spent on this.