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A flier from the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival for the 2009 event reached my inbox on Monday, May 11, 2009:
The link to the website is here, and the “buy tickets” link is here.
Of course I couldn’t go in August even if I wanted to go, because I’m a pre-operative transsexual/transgender woman, and penises aren’t welcome at the festival.
But, even if I were post-operative transsexual, I may make it through the front gate, but I wouldn’t be welcome as an out, post-operative transsexual — I’d have to be able to be stealth regarding my history of once having male genitalia.
And that’s because the festival co-creator and organizer — Lisa Vogel — is a proponent of the womyn-born-womyn philosophy of many second wave feminists, so she and the festival consider me a kind of minority womon she wants to exclude from the festival:
“Since 1976, the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival has been created by and for womyn-born womyn, that is, womyn who were born as and have lived their entire life experience as womyn. Despite claims to the contrary by Camp Trans organizers, the Festival remains a rare and precious space intended for womyn-born womyn.”…”I deeply desire healing in our communities, and I can see and feel that you want that too. I would love for you and the other organizers of Camp Trans to find the place in your hearts and politics to support and honor space for womyn who have had the experience of being born and living their life as womyn. I ask that you respect that womon born womon is a valid and honorable gender identity. I also ask that you respect that womyn born womyn deeply need our space — as do all communities who create space to gather, whether that be womyn of color, trans womyn or trans men… I wish you well, I want healing, and I believe this is possible between our communities, but not at the expense of deeply needed space for womyn born womyn.”
–Lisa Vogel, as quoted in a 2006 press release from the Michigan Womyn’s Festival
Embracing the full diversity of straight, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and intersex women within the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender community, and within broader society, just hasn’t been timely in this, or any other period of the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival’s thirty-something year history.
So, where will I be in August? It’ll be Autumn in San Diego, no doubt, as the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival is a seasonal occasion I definitely won’t be attending.
86 Comments
Anyone who mis-spells “woman” to avoid saying “man” is just being sillyIt sucks that you’re excluded, but as for myself I find I’m not interested in playing with such silly people.
I’m reminded of a scene from a movieTwo completely normal reasonably nice guys are at a college party, walking around and saying hello to people.
They say hello to 2 angry looking girls and one immediately snaps, “We’re not interested in your penises!!!”
Sad.
Me neitherand if there were one of these in Maine, I’d be there protesting their bigotry.
The other day I saw a fabulous commercial with plenty of different local women speaking (including both senators Snowe and Collins, as well as frosh rep Chellie Pingree), supporting a large women’s shelter here in Maine.
Your post reminds me that I have yet to find out if transwomen are allowed or if it is strictly a “womyn’s” shelter.
SadIt makes me sad to see artists I enjoy (Amy Ray, Elvira Kurt, Issa, Melissa Ferrick) are supporting MWMF still, how many years since Camp Trans was founded and the blatantly bigotry of the founders/organizers of MWMF has been uncovered. I mean, what do these women have to do to get otherwise thoughtful performers to say feh to their little exclusionary shindig in the woods?
I’m surprised Ferrick is goingshe actually canceled once over this. I wonder what changed her mind.
Oh, the irony: Michigan Womyn Promise KeepersThe ridiculous claim to excluding trans-women is that “women born women” only can attend. This means that pre-op FTMs are welcome to attend, as well as women who are clueless about what their actual genetic profile is. According to Texas law, which allows marriage between “opposite sex” partners regardless of their genetics, Michigan’s policy is not progressive, it’s reactionary. They are requiring a genetic “test” to enter.
In fact, many of the women who attend this festival are so butch that they would never be read as “women” in small-town America. Should they be judged on a femininity “test,” most women would NOT pass in terms of either their appearance or gender
The Michigan womyn organizers are much like The Promise Keepers. They are upholding an essentialized, conservative view of women that is no different than patriarchal absolutism of fundamentalist Christianity–only their ideal is that womyn don’t practice misogyny. There are plenty of misogynist lesbians.
Any trans-woman or man who wants to attend this festival has huge ovaries. If anyone is going to be a threat, it will be some fundie woman gathering footage for their next great anti-queer propaganda video.
AgreedThey are silly.
After reading the release, it sickens me these people call themselves “feminist”. They are not. If they were feminists then they would be accepting.
I do not know what Autumn’s specific story is on why she went through transition, but the MTFs I know in person were born hermaphrodites and were sexed as males and thus their transitions to females were a correction of that mistake. Supporting them would even fall under there femi-nazi views if they followed it. What greater male oppression is there than to have them force you as an infant to become one of them?
Make no mistake, these are not feminists. Misandry is anti-thetical to feminism imo because it justifies misogyny.
She repudiated her former viewsShe announced a few years ago that it was all a misunderstanding. She had just turned down one gig because she had male members in her band at the time. She had never been boycotting the festival and if she had been it wasn’t because of transwomen.
She also went on to say that a big reason was the Mich types were the ones going to her shows and transwomen were not. That certainly came to a big surprise to those of us who are trans and were going to her shows. But I guess I don’t look tranny enough for her to have noticed, so I just got counted as another person comfy with the status quo.
Ms. Ferrick is on my worst person in the world list personally.
If the festival’s ringleaders had any principlesthey’d have moved from the state once it passed its anti-marriage amendment in 2004. But I’ve yet to meet a transphobe that had any principles.
Thanks for providing the shot of the ad – so I’ll know what all artists are unprincipled enough to be associated with this year’s Hate Fest.
Now…
Time to remove the Indigo Girls from my iPod.
I guess I won’t ever be invited to perform there eitheras I’m a musician who also happens to be non-op androgyne trans woman. Maybe we need our own music festival!
I attended Camp Trans (across the road) in 1994. Many women attending the festival visited us to talk and learn more about us. It was a very special weekend.
This policy will/must changeAs a MichFest goer, I can say this has been a heated topic among festival goes for at least five years. There is increasing support for ending the wbw policy and pressure coming from within the festival for change. I believe for the MichFest to survive, it must get with the 21st century and embrace “queer” and transfolk, especially mtf in all stages of transition. It was radical in its conception 35 years ago; but radical then is conservative/oppressive now.
Huh?
It was radical, not oppressive, to exclude trans women 35 years ago? My, how times do change. Or not.
My two centsAnd that’s really about all they are, two cents. One, the implication that woman is polluted because of the second syllable is very retro and ought to go the way of bra burning and tie dye. Secondly, the organizer refers to women who have had the experience of ‘being born womyn . . .’ Umm, sorry, but no one’s born a myn or a womyn. Infants have no gender consciousness, the world is one giant starburst to them. They just piss, shit and cry a lot. For that matter, we all start out female at the earliest stage of embryonic development. This is just a variation on the oh-so-70s no-men-allowed in the commune petrification.
“This means that pre-op FTMs are welcome to attend…”That would be disingenuous at best. I would hope none of us FTMs think we have any business trying to attend a women-only event, even those who could get away with it.
It’s sad that they won’t let MTFs in, though it sounds like a transphobic environment, so I’m not sure why any would even want to attend.
Radical/notLet me clarify — the idea all those years ago to have a Festival by women (it was “womyn”) for women was radical for its time. Times change. The Festival, to continue to be a place by and for women needs to include the whole village of women — especially MTF trans women. Otherwise it is just a day gone by whose time has come and gone. I can’t speak to how the issue of inclusion of trans women played out back then as I knew nothing of the festival until 2000. What I do know is in 2009, times do need to change, beginning with their WBW policy.
This fest has been creating controversy from Day 1And I think that’s what it’s all about: being controversial. Showcasing true talent or making a profound social/political statement seems to be secondary.
Being born male, I have never gone, but several women friends of mine have attended. Some a few times, but none more than that. It seems to be something that gets tired real fast for most.
Funny.2007, over 100 transwomen were participating in the festival — many also part of the ongoing installment of Camp Trans across the way.
2008 was a repeat of the same.
The event’s founders are out of touch with the event’s followers, and the hullabaloo is about passing now — the policy, like most others, is enforced by how well one manages to meet the preconceptions of others regarding the event.
Anyone heard from Vogel lately — and that would include her hate group site supporting her views.
ASk.
Give them a call and find out.
How is this legal?How is it legal to discriminate, even against men? The law prohibits discrimination based on sex, not based on being a woman. It works both ways, just as laws against discrimination based on sexual orientation also protect straights. If I were straight and wanted to make a quick buck, I would apply at a gay bar and then sue them if I got turned down. Lesbians could do the same thing, since most gay male bars don’t hire women. In San Francisco it’s illegal to discriminate because of a person’s weight but most gay bars haven’t gotten the memo yet. I’m amazed there haven’t been more of those kinds of lawsuits.
Is this private or public land? Are they using the Boy Scouts “private organization” defense? Has anyone tested this in court?
Private function held on private landIt’s quite legal.
Ugh..The whole segregation of boys over the age of 5 up to and including making them stay in a segregaded camping area is blatantly misanthropic to say the least. I know I know..but male patriarchy has to be challenged..I got it but the notion that challening a 6yr old boy will change that seems misguided to say the least..Would be intersting to find out what the age demographics are..guess is that’s it’s older, old things die hard..
This reminded me of an incident at an NGLTF Conferencea couple of years ago. As a white gay male, I was reviewing the conference schedule there were numerous sessions that only allowed AA GLBT people or only Women sessions, or Latino sessions but here I am a white gay male (yes, I know that we are still percieved as having “privledge”) but I was not welcome at any of these sessions because of my color and sex. I thought for a groups wanted to be inclusive and diverse they were being neither.
That said, years later I was attending an Out & Equal conference and one of the sessions talked about how to energize your Employee Resource Group and the group giving the session was from a huge international company (I won’t name names) and they wanted all the ERG’s to be active so because they’re weren’t enough GLBT people in the organizations, they made it a goal to have lots of str8 people in the group which seemed to water down the reason for the ERG.
I guess I don’t have the answers only that people can react with their wallet. Don’t patronize the organization that’s holding the event and make sure you make a note of contacting the performers at the event of their shameful appearance at an event that discriminates.
More from the Bilerico ProjectHere’s good info to check out from The Bilerico Project:
http://www.bilerico.com/2008/0…
Seems Mich Fest producers are moving to more of a “don’t ask don’t tell policy. I’m checking the discussion boards at http://www.michfest.com to see what’s up for this year.
**headdesks repeatedly**Autumn, love, I don’t know what to tell you. I really don’t. This whole new-wave radfem anti-any-sex-we-don’t-like transphobic faux-feminism shit has got to fucking go. I stopped reading a lot of feminist blogs such as IBTP and Feministe because of the judgmental anti-BDSM and transphobic garbage being spewed. They’re one heartbeat away from fundie christians who think theirs is the only way to get to heaven, and they’re vicious to anyone who doesn’t kiss their ass.
Is there a Greek word equivalent to “omphaloskepsis” but focused on the vagina rather than the navel? Because I’m seeing an awful lot of that lately.
For someone so iconic to the recent queer movement as Amy Ray to participate in something so transphobic is wrong on so many levels.
“perceived”?!You think we white men are only “perceived” as being privileged?
It shouldn’t beSomething this big is hardly private. Any event which is open to the public is a public accommodation, as far as I’m concerned. The Supreme Court got it wrong in the Boy Scouts case.
If this was a White People’s Music Festival for whites only, there would be protests, legal or not.
In Michthink, transmen are deluded butchesAccording to the anti-trans philosophy of the Mich types, transmen are tragedies of sexism. They aren’t really men, they are butch women who are deluded by sexism in society to think they are really men. Therefore, welcoming them to a woman only event is a way to welcome them back to being the women they truly are.
GAG
can we please not use terms like “femi-nazi,” even when the feminists in question are being rigid and exclusionary? Much as I agree with everything else you wrote, it was hard to hear over the slur – which is used by misogynists to refer to pretty much any feminist.
same clubhouse mentality different daywhat are these organisers 8 eyears old?
I’ve known and enjoyed seperatist womyn, and many things about living away from heterosexuals appeals to me, somedays more than other.
BUT I’m not hosting a huge music festival, which also might cast an unflattering taint on the performers.
Invitation Not NecessaryAs a music geek and collector, much less as a male, I can say an invitation to this event is not necessary:
I recognize NONE of the artists/groups on the list!
Plus LWG (Lesbians With a Guitar) music is so boring, it puts me to sleep. No offense, ladies – I’m more of a Motown and disco person, myself LOL!
I’m a big beleiver in respecting what someone chooses to call themselvesIf that means a Y in woman….in the bigger scheme of things, who the f*ck does that hurt?
Several womyn who have been bashed as lesbians, (I know two in my circle of friends), and I know a lot of children of alcoholic, (women), who have been raped and pestered by multiple men/boys all their G*D DAMN lives. Spelling is pretty small concern in comparrison to what they survived.
btw there are limits to PC speakOne year two talentless HACKS at an MCC church decided they would GUT all gender references in classic Christmas carols….OMFG it dreadful and painful what they did to those hymns, removing every LORD, and other male reference.
If you want genderless or gender nuetral hymns….WRITE them.
Don’t take a verbal weed whacker to standard hymns.
Do they do a trousers check?How do they even know which FTMs are “real” womyn (by their definition) or not? Do they have to drop trou at the gate and be inspected? Though I do think it’s hypocritical of FTMs for live their lives 24/7 as men and then expect to be “a woman” for a weekend, particularly in such an “either-or” environment.
.I have no problem with the legality of private all-women events; there is a purpose for “Womanspace” just as there is a purpose for “Manspace” and Men’s gatherings (though oddly, such things usually seem to be viciously mocked or called patriarchal, when their purpose is not much different from MWMF’s supposed purpose). And, I certainly appreciate “Queerspace” sometimes, although with changing times, it’s becoming more and more archaic to divide one’s friend circle into GLBT and “allies”.
However, when they are judging people on what gender they were 50 years ago instead of what they are now, that’s a little silly, particulalry if they’re claiming it’s all about “community”.
Did calland got transferred a few times…
Finally got someone who was willing to answer- sort of. First 2 were very friendly but nervous about giving a definitive answer. (shelter coordinator on lunch break)
The question has come up before and it seems that anyone is indeed allowed in; it’s a matter of them speaking with the person needing shelter and finding a safe place that the person is comfortable with.
Also found this link:
http://www.mainehousing.org/HO…
Certainly living in a state with protection/discrimination laws is a big plus!
Let them have their fun..they’re IRRELIVANT anyway. No gay woman (I frankly dislike the term lesbian-which they rammed down the LGBT movement’s throat back in the ’90′s)with a brain even considers the Michigan Womyn’s Festival something interesting in the slightest. IMO, these WOMEN work off a stereotype-the man hating, hairy legged, Birkenstock wearing ‘lesbians’-and VERY few people (male or female) take them seriously. For my generation, these ‘womyn’ are nothing more than a joke, and IMO they need to stop living in the 1960′s.
Oh-and Bluegrass is right-’lesbian’ music is HIGHLY overrated, and there’s only two or three artists on that roster that I listen to on a semi-regular basis. They’re not bad, but who wants to hear ‘lesbian’ music everyday?
on the “moving from the state” part i have to disagreean important aspect of the festival was always to create a temporary safe haven for woman. if we leave aside the trans issue for the moment, the need for a save haven couldn’t be greater now that michigan has an anti-equality amendment. bringing back the trans issue, it is even more tragic that the festival is excluding MtF women, given that all michigan women are more than ever in need of a haven.
i went to the michigan festival once back in the early 90s, and i can attest to how absolutely wonderful it was to be in a man-free place. just too bad the organizers have excluded me from that experience, since i won’t go unless you can be there too.
learn some history.this is a spelling coming from an earlier generation, before “Ms.” was an acceptable title. women really were accessories to men even more than they are today (right, Mrs. Crist?), and so changing the spelling from “woman” to “womym” was an act of rebellion. and it was courageous, because such women were publicly stating that they wouldn’t play by the rules of the patriarchy. there were real repercussions from doing that. it may look silly now, but the spelling has a proud heritage and should receive respect, even if you think it’s long past time it was retired. i’m not so sure that time has yet come – the lily ledbedder act only got signed 2 months ago, for example.
And just to add….No offense to anyone who listens to lesbian music is intended. Just IMO.
The word you’re looking forIs there a Greek word equivalent to “omphaloskepsis” but focused on the vagina rather than the navel? Because I’m seeing an awful lot of that lately.
I believe the word would be “hysteroskepsis.” Many straight men suffer from the same syndrome.
Crooked framingVogel takes something over 150 words to say, basically, “We’re not anti-trans, we’re just pro-real women”. So how does this frame differ from, “We’re not anti-black, we’re just pro-white”, or, “we’re not anti-semitic, we’re just pro-christian”, or, “we don’t hate naturalized citizens, but we only allow native-born Americans in our club”?
Just asking. I started out as a boy, I’m in recovery now, so what do I know?
Not to defend this kind of behavior in ANY way……but there is another side of the coin to this that perhaps I sort of understand. It’s sort of like straights showing up more and more in Provincetown and acting like homophobic assholes. We have SO few places to be ourselves. A handful of gay enclaves that perhaps we act and react too hastily when we feel under siege so to speak. Ditto to the Womyn’s Festival. It’s one of the FEW places that lesbian women can go and just be. That being said, Autumn, you look, act and identify completely as a woman. Based on your diaries here, which I read, I see you as a woman. WTF are they going to do with women who show up, take a penis poll?
If transsexual women,or published female travel writers, or obese women, or Palestinian women, or African-American women had been gathering once a year for decades somewhere in America on private land for celebrations and discussions around their specific shared issues, I suppose I could make a big deal about being excluded since I don’t fit any of those descriptions But why would I?
I might be able to sneak in under false pretenses. But why would I?
I could make annual rants about how despicable the organizers and performers and participants at this 33-year-old institution are. But why would I?
Love it“Hysteroskepsis” so noted. Thankee much. My classical (read: linguist nerd) education takes a few cups of coffee to kick in as I get older.
I use the term…because it differentiates between real feminists that, and this may be an over simplification on my part, view feminism as striving for equality and choice and those that view it as misandry.
Yeah it’s not politically correct but I do not pretend to be that. I know of no other apt term because these “womyn” seem hell bent on on forcing their views on others.
It’s for women. Transwomen are women.The festival is and always has been for women. Black women, white women, straight women, lesbian women, Christian women, Pagan women. Women.
All women. Oh except one kind.
A subgroup gathering itself away from an oppressive group is empowering. A majority group excluding a small subgroup is discrimination.
Do we not remember our women’s history and the struggles to integrate lesbian women into NOW? Betty Friedan and The lavender menace protests? Do these ring a bell? Was excluding lesbians from a group for women acceptable?
They get to define who it is for.Not you.
Not me.
These are the FIRST people to scream BLOODY MURDER when gay men try to have a men’s only event.
I’ve always been curious why the women who most call for the need of “women only spaces” are the same people who blow a fuse at the mere suggestion that ANYTHING might possibly be male only.
I won’t be goingPersonally, I like a little yang to balance out my yin.
I also tend to view everyone as a unique individual, rather than placing them in rigid catagories. Life’s a lot easier that way.
Where will I be in August?With any luck, Gen Con! The four geekiest days on Earth!
Who’s they?Do you mean they in terms of Mich keeping out transwomen or NOW kicking out lesbians?
“They” being the owners of the festival.
I’ve never been to Michiganthough I dated one of the women involved with it early on and who was one of the founders of a since defunct similiar gathering in Ohio.
It’s in Michigan, for Goddess’ sake.
It’s mud.
And my idea of hearing music involves performers, and a table for me and wine.
And..my idea of roughing it is the Marriott instead of the Ritz-Carlton.
I just scanned their website……and saw the following offered as a workshop.
http://michfest.com/festival/i…
I wonder how “informative and balanced” it really will be?
Corrected LinkActually, that link should be http://michfest.com/festival/i…
Where will I be in August?I will be in Boston moving my daughter to grad school.
Will I be wish that I were in Michigan?
No more than I would wish that I were in any third world nation.
Suggestion to everyone: Ignoring Michigan would make it far less important symbolically. I had never even heard of the MWMF til I was dating someone previously involved with it some years ago.
It is not the be-all end-all definer of Lesbiansism or Womanhood.
It has no particular relevance for the Lesbian Activist Community as far as networking.
And it has mud and mosquitoes.
Ignore Michigan and it’s symbolic importance as a “bastion of second wave separatist feminism against the horde of trans-invaders” evaporates.
Is this really true, outside the bar scene? Why would “womyn-born womyn” be interested in gay men’s sexuality discussion groups or intimacy workshops or the baths or whatever? Gold-star lesbians aren’t interested in men’s sexual equipment and the details of male-male sex.
Yes, it’s quite appropriate to “scream bloody murder” when “gay” political organizations relegate women to pouring coffee. That’s another thing entirely.
Yes, in a small community, the “gay bar” should be welcoming of all LGBTIAs – occasional gay bars try to exclude women (cis and trans), blacks, etc – “screaming bloody murder” is the only decent response to those bars.
Hey Now…I live in Michigan. Other than the worst unemployment in the USA, the mud, the draconian anti-any-sort-of-same-sex-couple-ship laws, it’s not so bad.
Well, poo.
Karen, your state bird is a MOSQUITO!Let’s ignore the festival.
It’s easy
It shows contempt.
Bingo!I, as a transwoman, simply find the whole thing irrelevant to my understanding of who I am.
If the policy were different, I would love to go and experience the music, the companionship, & al.
But it is not different, and I have too much of my life to live joyously to let MWMF’s ideas of who I should be concern me.
Namaste!
What Companionship, Karen?Half of these people would not even accept me as a Lesbian, The purists say that I came out too late.
I heard of an incidentA few years back, I heard that a fully post-op FtM was in the showers and some women saw his surgically created penis and thought he was a MtF, which once again has Lisa Vogel go apoplectic and once again reiterate her “womyn born womyn” policy.
POEAren’t they just so precious?
They wipe out your herstory, and that of one hell of a lot of their foremothers by claiming lesbian purity. Just like some sort of -archy, eh?
Never mind the struggles of closeted lesbians; their circumstances make it difficult or impossible to come out until they can no longer breathe inside.
I should think they should be overjoyed to have another sister come out, ready to face the world as best she can.
Sheesh. Purity of Essence, arggh.
Mary Daly touched on the issue in Amazon Gracethat the more extreme separatists had in the end taken the tools and practiced the discrimination of the patriarchy.
But wiping out my herstory?
They have not the power to do it.
Oh yes, in their own enclaves they can deny me mine, but I am still a Lesbian activist, an image of a successful Lesbian, and no one can take that away from me unless I succumb to their viewpoint. Only I, in the end, can take away my herstory.
And it is the same with yours, with Autumn’s, or anyone else’s.
A better analogyA White People’s Music Fest for whites only is one thing.
An “All-American” Music Fest which excludes naturalised, black or latina citizens as “not really American” is another. Especially it they allow in white foreigners born in the USA but who have renounced American citizenship.
The MWMF has an anti-Intersex policy too, they’re not just transphobes.
TRIGGER WARNING
If you really want to see rabid transphobia, far worse than anything from Focus on the Family, or MassResistance, or Concerned Women of America, have a look at some of the threads on the MWMF Female identity and gender politics forum.
Be warned, before clicking on the topics at this link. It’s worse than “Free Republic”.
http://www.michfest.com/forums…
It does give you an idea of how a vocal and powerful minority in the RadFem movement think.
The Party Line of MichFestYes, people really do think this way.
http://www.michfest.com/forums…
makes me sad …Hey Autumn, I’m sorry that you have to get crap from some other people who should be your allies, easily part of your overall community or just a piece of it.
These, thankfully few, what genitalia at birth obsessed PC feminists seem so limited in their enlightenment due to their own hurt where it becomes almost like a cult of chronic ongoing wounded victimization. As if it’s a badge of honor to be always in this old space, so what’s lost is also any deep true or heart felt feeling and any real change now towards something better or new for themselves or anyone else who could be community. Instead they easily forget or don’t care about who else they’re hurting in their same process of being stuck. They’re perpetuating a cycle rather than ending it.
I’m annoyed when people who should know better, who’ve been hurt, also cause hurt to other people. And my post isn’t about the bad feminists, as there are worse people who do greater harm out there in the world, yet it’d be nice if re: this music festival, people were fighting the greater harm out there in the world rather than tilting at windmills (in the sense of being worried about who’s got a penis).
Maybe the best thing is to not go there. Where would you find more support or people who would be more supportive of you? There must be better venues for you where you can be yourself and find acceptance, love, community.
Yet either way, hopefully you will be included and accepted and can attend however you yourself want to define yourself, including however you yourself want to spell your own spelling of the word, woman, womyn, etc. So it empowers you, not them or their PC’ness. You shouldn’t have to now or later, sell out to them just to attend or be you either.
And don’t take in their blanket statement of what you should have or lack as it’s way of controlling and disrespecting you. I learned the hard way, while it’s good to be open, challenge myself and how I am in the world, yet it’s another to be a doormat for any hateful people. I’m glad I didn’t take to heart or deeply take in when Andrea Dworkin’s and her minions later when they said things like (when I’ve heard it in person from them) that all men rape or all men are evil, most of their other crap I’ve heard I’ve thankfully forgotten, and I’ve forgiven them, but don’t have enough of a short term memory to trust them again. And I don’t take a lot of crap like this stuff from people anymore either.
So trust yourself and your heart and take in love instead from those other sources who offer it to you, along with community or inclusion also … I think you can find something better for you than this music festival.
Thank you for posting to this site, I’ve gotten a lot out of reading your posts (and Pam’s and other people).
Paul – Minnesota
Well this Pieces sure needs her Schwin 10speed thank goodness I think the hate coming out of Michigan is insane. Dont know whats worse Tim McVay or the Mee-SHE-Gans weemyns Testyval.
Seriously something must be in the water up there that makes people just go bonkers.
So glad i find men attractive at times like these.
Let’s See…..Where shall a good middle-age dyke like me spend her vacation this August???
Let’s compare shall we
MWMF
5 days at $490 (purchased before 7/11; air fare, camping gear and industrial-grade insect repellent extra), sleeping on the ground in a tent using a sleeping bag, no air conditioning, no plumbing, BUGS, rain, humidity;
Las Vegas
5 days at $350 (includes RT air fare from Austin and hotel 4 nights), room with a bed, air, a toilet and hot shower, blackjack, shrimp cocktail, Captain & Coke and the “American Pie” (song) light show on Fremont Street.
Decisions….Decisions
O.OO.O
Just…
O.O
The words I recognize… the order they’ve been tortured into and the sheer vitriol behind them? Wow.
Shows the lieYeah, Mich is one of the leading sources of hate speech against transgendered people. It kind of shows what a blunt lie the nonsense is about “women born women.” It’s not about cisgendered women, it’s about hate for transpeople.
Active anti-trans organizing on Mich boardsI’ve seen plenty examples of overt organizing on the Mich boards against transgendered rights. I would assume the same goes on at parts of the festival.
Similiar sentiments, ChuChuMichigan and the sleeping bag, mosquitoes, mud and lines for the showers or an academic women’s leper colony, as we call it, on the Hudson, doing a women’s living history project with some friends and then moving my daughter to Massachusetts fro there??
Hmmmm..
Bright women in my age group and some of their daughters, our ‘next generation’, hot breakfasts in a friendly space, working on a project for positive portrayals of independent women’s struggles in 19th cent america, my own room, my own bed, drumming with frieends…
or…
Michaigan?
Not much of a choice, is it
They’ve gone so far leftthey’ve wrapped themselves and come out on the far right.
From a poster at the MWMF who (in a different thread) expressed outrage and shock at the idea of a PENIS at the festival:
Body parts aren’t all. Unless the body part in question is a penis, because a penis trumps everything. And they don’t see the basic inconsistency with this. Or the power they’re assigning to a few ounces of tissue.
It’s compelling reading, in a horrible train wreck kind of way. It’s so extreme, it’s a caricature of the man-hating feminist lesbian – the one that I thought only lived in Billy Bob’s troubled dreams.
Yes, but again…….it is disrespectful to use a word that misogynists routinely use to try to shut up those whom you term as “real feminists.” It’s also really LAZY on your part.
Look, if you are able to reclaim the word “Fag” in your own self-identity, you are clever enough to come up with a term that accurately defines these womyn/women in a way that isn’t insulting to others. Might I suggest “pseudo-feminist”?
hysteroskepsis=womb-obsessedHysteroskepsis means obsession with the womb, as in the kind of women who are obsessed with uterus via pregnancy. Pro-lifers fall into this category.
The correct word would be kolposkepsis. kolpos=vagina.
Thanks for the encouragement
There’s a bit of hurt, and a bit of anger in me. However, mostly my “thick skin” has kicked in, and I’ve stopped caring what the festival organizers think.
Well, other than evocatively (and not provocatively) pointing out the festival organizers (and Lisa Vogel in particular) have failed to embrace third wave feminism — to embrace diversity — even within the subset of womyn. It’s somewhat sad that the festival organizers and their staunch womyn-born-womyn supporters are functioning as a majority population that is engaging in oppression of a minority population. They, in my opinion as a new media reporter, is that the festival organizers and their staunch womyn-born-womyn supporters are hypocrites regarding the philosophical, anti-oppression elements of feminism.
And, although festival co-creator and organizer Lisa Vogel isn’t currently using overt hate speech against trans people to describe trans people, people who use her website’s hosted forums are, as some here have discovered on their own. I didn’t have to suggest blenders do their own research on the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival website and see this for themselves, but many of the blenders here did the research on their own and did see it.
As I said, I’m not going to Michigan this August. It’s not my season there…yet. With that said; however, I have great faith in the LGBT community’s youth to eventually encourage the embracing of third wave feminism onto this festival’s leadership. The festival’s leadership has so far been resistant to growing from second to third wave feminism, but the controversy over trans inclusion isn’t dying, and the festival organizers and their staunch womyn-born-womyn supporters are looking more and more out of touch by the year.
And, of course, the artists performing at the festival are looking more and more like womyn who support the festivals’ apparent bigotry, and the festival’s oppressive philosophy. Just ask past festival performer Bitch about the effects of being perceived as an anti-trans bigot.
So Much “Open-Mindedness” HereWow. I have a brain and I attended Michfest for the first time last year. There goes your theory, LOL. I don’t agree with the anti-trans policy and won’t be attending this year because of it, but I did want to experience what it was like to live in male-free space for a few days. Frankly, it was quite nice to walk through the woods alone in the middle of the night with absolutely no fear of being assaulted.
Anyway, it’s nice and all that some of ya’ll dislike “lesbian music,” but musical preference is a matter of taste. I didn’t know or like all of the musicians who performed last year at Michfest, but I did appreciate that it was an all-female lineup as opposed to, say, the sausage-fest that is a Lollapalooza lineup.
Because every other space is male-dominated spaceLet’s use an analogy.
Women’s Studies exist because practically every other course of study is essential a men’s study course. It’s just not called that. The majority of people we learn about in history are men. The majority of books we read about it literature classes were written by men.
Similarly, African-American Studies exist because practically every other course is really mostly about White people, their books, and their ideas.
Men can have their own spaces or studies, but really, I think many people wonder why they need such things when so much is already devoted to them?
Besides, I’m pretty sure that private gay bathhouses exclude women and are, therefore, “male-only” spaces. I don’t see many lesbians or women blowing fuses about that. LOL.
I’m not aware of any other women’s music festival with this policy.Can you share with us what other women’s music festivals you’ve personally attended, and which were the best by whatever criteria you wish to choose?
they would saythat you finally woke up from the testosterone cloud you were living in..they are the savors after all…LOL
You could look at this from another angleWay back in the day, when I lived in Utah, and worked for Utah Retirement Systems, I had a coworker who was a freak. He was friendly, up until the day we had a casual conversation, and he discovered I was gay. That blew all his circuits.
For the next year, I owned him. I controlled where he went on break, I controlled where he sat at lunch, I even controlled where and when he went to the bathroom. And he didn’t just give me this control, he thrust it into my hands.
We both worked on the third floor, so he started going to the bathroom on the second floor, I guess because he didn’t want to catch my gay cooties. When I found this out, I used the bathroom on the second floor – just once was all it took – when I knew he’d see me, and he started taking the elevator down to the first floor bathroom. I heard he was written up because his bathroom breaks were taking too long. He sat in the lunchroom, as far from me as he could, so I started changing seats in the middle of lunch. It made him insane. I found out where he went on break, and started going there, too. His whole day at work was consumed by me, and how to avoid me. At first, yeah, I was hurt and angry. Then I saw how pathetic and ridiculous he was, and I thought it was hysterical. I enjoyed the time we had, but I found a better job and left.
That guy had a lot in common with many (way too many) of the people who posted at the MWMF forum. They’re eaten up by the fact that you exist. It haunts them, and they’ve turned every scrap of power and authority they have over to you. You own them, the same way I owned that guy in Utah. You can be hurt and angry, or you can see how completely they’ve turned themselves over to you.
It’s up to the individual though……to define (um, decide) if it is for them to be there. I won’t. I’ll go to festivals where such delineations as WBT and WBW are not definitions apart from each other.
Why not simply have a WBW section within Fest?…and the rest of womyn’s land be open to transwomen. It’s no more disengenous than having WOC sections, if we are honoring the different life experiences of different women in the same fest.
As a note, as long as its participants act in concert (no pun intended) with the rules of the rest of the Michfest participants follow, i.e., quiet hours, respect for the performers, &c., I think that it should be considered a part of Fest.
Just trying to find some common ground, and make some understanding.
That may have been an unfortunate turn of phrase to say…“No more disengenous than…” It is not disengenous with Fest (IMO) to have sections for women of differing life experiences growing up female. I am just wondering why trans-women cannot be listened to about their own differing life experiences, that’s all. We suffer under patriarchy, and we do NOT understand patriarchy as a man would.
But what would I know or be able to share about my life?
That’s true….I like a mix of male and female artists myself. It’s just that these artists (with the exception of Indigo Girls) tend to isolate themselves thanks to the whole separatist ideology. And it’s true that there are positive aspects to the Mich. festival. It’s just that it’s TIRED. I’m all for women-positive spaces, but it’s like Dinah Shore (or as I refer to it, DinahSaur). Those occasions were made for people who were SEVERELY oppressed, and now that we’re a little more accepted (and work needs to be done towards complete acceptance)they’re kind of dated.
That’s just my opinion, though.