For what it’s worthcongratulations to everyone who wanted to see this ENDA pass. I wish it could be more than a sybolic victory – if indeed it's even that. Also

It sends me the message that effeminate men, emasculate women, and transgender people like me are just too problematic for Democratic Congressional Leadership to stand up and fight for.

I think you mean “masculine women.”

BullshitUnited ENDA Responds to Today's Vote; Remains Committed to Passage of Fully-Inclusive Employment Non-Discrimination Act Bullshit

in what way??

Sorry to bring this up, but…English is such a strange language…  'Emasculate' is not a counterpart word for 'effeminant', however 'masculine' is. The word 'emasculate' has a rather unfortunate and painful meaning, and it can ony happen to a man.

You are rightIt means castrated.  A castrated woman doesn't make sense. 

I don’t want Frank to die,as he's stood up for my rights time and again and, more broadly, for good government, against Bush and his ilk, etc.However I admit that I have been educated and enlightened by you passionate and intelligent band of T's that grace this wonderful Blend.So dyss, love, I hereby promise that I will work as hard as I can to promote the rights of my T friends from here on, to a much greater extent than I ever have.  I will in fact start tonight at my pizza party, to which you would be invited if you didn't live so far.Thanks again for your (and Autumn's and others') intelligent contributions and heartfelt complaints.  They have touched me.

So the Democrats that vote for this  piece of garbage ENDA can go home and tell their constiuents, “Still vote for me because I didn’t vote to protect the trans people, so you can still have a group of U.S. citizens to discriminate against.”  Anti LGBT voters will vote the same way T or no T.  Most bigots don’t know the difference, and don’t give a shit anyway. The ads that will be used by the right will be, “Rep so and so vote for the homosexual agenda.”  and how will be Rep so and so respond how?  By trashing trans people? 

So the Democrats that vote for this  piece of garbage ENDA can go home and tell their constituents, “Still vote for me because I didn’t vote to protect the trans people, so you can still have a group of U.S. citizens to discriminate against.”  Anti LGBT voters will vote the same way T or no T.  Most bigots don’t know the difference, and don’t give a shit anyway. The ads that will be used by the right will be, “Rep so and so vote for the homosexual agenda.”  and how will be Rep so and so respond how?  By trashing trans people? 

Justice/Just us It pains me to see this ENDA pass. I was so proud of our community taking such a united stand against the ENDA without gender identity inclusiveness. People just don't get it… that to be for LGB rights should mean to be for T rights. More people need to read bell hooks. Ugh.  

TomistoclesI don’t want him to die, either (I reserve that for individuals like Dobson).
I simply won’t care if he does.
If he were to change his position, and somehow make amends (and, to be frank, I’m not sure he can), I might support him again.
Thank you, hon.
We’re pissed, off, yeah, but we *can’t* not fight for GLB rights. ITs an improbability since that “we” includes T people who are gay and bi.
And we will *never* leave them behind.

THIS sums it up, KathleenThe lobbyists (HRC) can continue to get paychecks and be beaurcratically relevant and the Democrats get to pretend to be LGBT supporters and the check will keep getting written and politicians will buy a new zillion dollar house and Aravosis can take off his Ann Colter wig.Its a really impressive political system we've got here….just gives me chills. 

I’m a wordsmith…Emasculate is the parallel, equvilent word to efeminate. 

I liveblogged the ENDA debate!I liveblogged the whole thing over at Quench (yes, when I was supposed to be working and being productive). Hope it's helpful! Thanks!

More than one use for the word…It also can mean:
adjective
1.  having unsuitable feminine qualities [syn: effeminate] 
—-
emasculate. (n.d.). WordNet® 3.0. Retrieved November 07, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/emasculate

End game for Barney Frank DemocratsIt's hard to imagine a more pyrrhic “victory” for Barney Frank, HRC, and the Congressional Democrats than this futile piece of flawed legislation. Its craven compromises epitomize the many broken promises of the pseudo-Democratic Party and the straight-laced Washington Beltway lobbyists who dominate the Homosexual Rights Campaign. Absolutely no one predicts it will pass the Senate or survive a Bush veto. What ENDA actually marks is a watershed moment – the end of Barney Frank's credibility as congressional leader of the LGBT movement and the public exposure of the HRC's betrayal of trans and gender variant people. Nothing they say will ever be trusted again.

Yes…… unsuitable for a man. Hence “[syn: effeminate].” People don't usually speak of effeminacy as being inappropriate in women.

only so long as we keep it a subjectWe said we would the last time, and they rewrote history over it when we became quiet and accepted the handouts they gave to us. Never again.

Castrated WomenActually, I know quite a few women who were castrated. Just saying.

Biting the hand that feeds you…As a gay member of the GLBT movement, I want to say that my eyes have been opened by this whole experience.  I have been watching development of ENDA this year and also have been following the political decisions that had to be made.  The sexual orientation only version of ENDA was introduced in a much-watered down version back in the 1970s.  Over the years and most recently in 1996, it evolved to be stronger and stronger.  However, this was the first year that the “T” was added.  Although it would have been nice if it were to pass with the “T,” do you honestly think that if it took 30 years for Congress to get used to the GLB part…they were automatically going to support the “T” on the first round?!?
I also want to point out that broad members of our community have always been excluded from ENDA for political reasons.  Members like people who work for small businesses (think small gas station), military members or members employed by religious schools.  So, please don’t band stand and accuse people of excluding only the “T.”  More than just the “T” was sacrificed for political reasons.
My eyes are opened but not in a good way.  I will continue supporting the “T.”  However, I am not a fan of those members who cast out our biggest allies like Rep Frank and HRC.  Tell me, after this event, how are we (GLBT people) supposed to talk to the Hill?  Stonewalls are in shambles with state groups peeling off of the national group.  Transgender only groups burnt all bridges to Capital Hill. 
Bad choices can be made for emotional reasons.  I realize that all of you are going to hate on me for this response but I hope it makes you think.  Hating me for talking sense does not bring you any closer to what we all want…

how they votedfyi, here is the result of the final roll call vote.  i have not looked to hard at it yet, but stalwarts like Baldwin and Kucinich voted for it.  i guess they decided it was better to pass something vaguely affirmative (even if sadly lacking) than nothing at all. 
well, what’s done is done.  our job hasn’t changed from yesterday:  get in front of our legislators and tell them why it matters to us that united enda gets introduced and passed next session.
we will keep moving forward.

Lurleen, thanks for standing with us,  And for you and tose like you make me fight harded, to right the wrongs so to say.  I have no doubt in my mind, this will have the same attacks fro the religious right. they will spend what is needed to kill this, a trans incuded would have given them more money to spend, and waste on this.

I AM celebratingProgress is progress… The one thing that I have yet to hear or have it been posted is how these so-called gang of 300 came to the conclusion that UnitedENDA actualy had the grass-roots support that they say that they had.  What was the process that they engaged in order to get the marching orders from the rank and file?Out and Equal was meeting in DC during the first dust-up on this, but there was absolutely NO effort to poll attendees as to what would be appropriate… but HRC did do a survey that basically supported the approach they took.I, for one, am glad we have this victory in our pocket.  All incremental victories are bittersweet, but they are victories.

No, biting the hand that taunts This is not the first time.Its the thrid time — the two times previously, the stripping was done before the bill went to committee. Congress has had 30 years to consider it.In 2004, T lobbyists were blocked, intentionally, from meeting with members of Congress by the HRC while the elements were stripped.This is why the T is so pissed. THis hand has not fed us, runninfrek. THis hand has time and time again held a treat before us and then snatched it away.That's not feeding.That's cruelty.You want to blame the people who were betrayed — intentionally and with purpose — because they condemn the people who did it to them. They are not our allies.  I don't hate you for saying any of that.I hate Frank and the HRC. Hate the fact this was deliberatley planned to take advantage of our activisim yto build support for it, then ripped out from beneath us.And the *reason* I'm pissed is because it leaves out even more people than you recognize. Because it doesn't include the T — which is gay, and lesbian, and bisexual, and straitght — and more, all at once.No federal bill of this sort will touch the small business owner (under 15 employees). Yes, I'm feeling pretty irrational of late.  Highly emotional. a “mad Trannie”.I'm not stupid.  I've been a part of this system, and I *do* know how it works.You are worried we will lose our voice on the Hill.  You want to know who will fill the void if we kill the most recognized power there is for us.So am I.  Really.Because that recognized force did this to itself.They are the ones who did preceisely the opposite of what they said they would do for 3 years. # yers where they said that to make up for the way they did the same freaking thing last time.They destroyed the one thing a group like that desperately needs to be able to do what they do.They sacrificed their credibility, their trust, thier rinciples, and their integrity.The next time, it might be you they toss under the bus.I dont want to give them the opportunity. 

I’ll believe that HRC survey when I see the methodologyEven Avarosis questioned them on it — and given the way that such things work, they were doing it before the 26th.THe HRC's own survey just a few months earlier sayssomething entirely differnt.THis one is CYA material.  THey've lied about everything else, they are lying about that survey.Provide evidence otherwise, and I'll retract, but I don't think you can — or will. They know they f'd up big time. 

All the way, HappyCat!

Thank you, and yesThis session agian, next session again, and each and every session, without stopping until it passes. I will say, there is still a chance for an inclusive bill.Really.THe Senate version.  IF it goes through with inclusion, then the task falles to the committee to align the two bills.That's where the Hate crimes bill is now. But I know longer have any faith or confidence in the ability of the HRC to do the job they have taken on. THey have proven they will lie through their teeth.Thank you, Lurleen.  

I look at it as a victory as well, for the religious right,  What a gift for them, the extended religious covers add to it  narrowed the width of their target, which makes it easier to be shot down in flames in the senate. Pete, matt bam bam and all will focus on its death in the senate.  They will fininsh off any body that was there for LGBT down to LGB, And take you GBL to the worst firestorm of Levitcus and so on and on.  Trust me on this, the CWA, AFTAH, FOTF, and exudos will be posed to fight it with all they have.  You will have the HRC on your side, but I doubt many others. I am going to sit back and wacth as even WND jois in to defeat it, and they will get the ball rolling fast to pass more state anendments banning SSM,  while we Ts sit and watch, keep count, put the numbers on the score board.  It will be the GLB against the wacko reloigious right, and from the looks of things, the dems will sell you out on marriage as well.  yep we Ts will watch how many years of work has destroyed the inroads we have made.  A sad day for sure, but the war will be fun to watch,  and than after all that time was wasted to see that Garbage ENDA will wonder what happened.  And us Ts will be blamed again for a non-inclusive failure in the Ts  I am now ready for the GLB with no T, We will move forward, a very fastat that.  LGB vs. bible bangers. bible bangers with those quotes(you know the ones)  and us Ts will have to deal with the restroom issue, which is being solved as we speak.  through bulding codes  Single use bathrooms have been in building codes for years, and they have been getting tighter on them in the last four years.  I believe us Ts will have great success when it comes down to the deep issue against use the bathroom.    As you will see, we both fight the Bs  GLB vs Bible, and T vs. bathroom.  I like my odds.

The Numbers235 vs 184That's 200D, 35R, vs  177R and 7D (who voted against because it wasn't inclusive enough.)Now we've been told often that 20R would vote against if T was included.So 207D, 15R vs 197RIt would take 13D to cross the floor, (194D, 15R vs 197R 13D) to lose it. That or 26 abstentions.So…. how many wavering “Freshmen Democrats” would have voted against? And how many would have just abstained? I guess we'll never know.  One thing's for sure: it was by no means certain a T-inclusive ENDA would lose without massive defections, not merely abstentions.  

HRC is finished in my circles,  I don’t trust them now, and never will. As you said 90 days, well now down to 88 and counting down.  A transiclusive ENDA passed here in Colorado, and it was people standing up for what is right.  and HRC had no part of it.  Well, we will see how well a LGB ENDA gets bruttally attacked from the right, Proposed ENDA Amendments Hardly Sufficient to Reduce Threat to Religious Freedom; Vote Tomorrow    Yeah, they have a 14 point plan already,

See Americans For Truth’s paper, “14 Good Reasons to Oppose HR 3685, the ‘ENDA Our Freedom’ Bill.”  Call Congress at 202-224-3121 or go to http://www.congress.org.

  The wingers are gearing up for the battle all right. And the TVC is up and ready as well

The Real Life Effect of ENDA
Religious employees of businesses may be forced into taking pro-homosexual sensitivity training courses or to sign employment documents forcing them to accept homosexuality, bisexuality, etc. as legitimate behaviors.
A hostile work environment is created for people of faith who reject homosexuality as sinful. Numerous cases already exist of Christians being persecuted for objecting to homosexuality in the work place. An AT&T employee was fired several years ago for refusing to sign a work policy that condoned homosexuality. The Red Cross in San Diego fired a man for not celebrating homosexuality. ENDA will worsen the work place for Christians and others because it will have the force of the federal government behind it.
Liberal judges will be given the legal ammunition to undermine state and federal marriage laws that define marriage as between one man and one woman. Judges will use ENDA as an excuse to overturn any bans on homosexual marriage in the states. By making “sexual orientation” a federally-protected minority class, this will provide legislative approval for homosexual marriage.
Businesses with 15 or more employees will face a litigation nightmare. Anyone with a bizarre sexual orientation can claim protection under this legislation. (See the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM).
The workplace is not just an employee’s cubicle. Workplaces are public facilities frequented by children—restaurants, stores, theaters, theme parks, hospitals or medical facilities/doctor’s offices, etc.

  I am sure there will be more later in the next few days.
So when it all falls apart, you can’t blame us Ts, we got dumped overboard, REMEMBER?

Baldwin’s statement:http://tammybaldwin…. Haven't read it yet, but she's got something to say… 

I’m adiopting the “HRC” positionI wont' oppose it. but I'll be damned if I'm going to do a single thing to help it. And if people ask me or the subject comes up, I'll tell them what I think. 87 days tomorrow. 

Every internal poll on the numbers made public that I saw showed support for passage of the orignal bill. I absolutely and unreservedly believe that Barney Frank split the bill on purpose and with malicious intent so that it would create and draw attention to the Trans aspect while the ret went on through. It was, as they say, historic Repeated. 

Open InvitationVent your anger at the ENDAblog official Fuck You, (fill in the blank) Open Thread.

It is just disappointingIncredibly disappointing.  I do not want to keep anyone from getting the rights that we should not need legislation to have.  I think the problem is we're chipping away at the negative instead of just pushing for the whole positive.  There should just be a law that people should not be fired for reasons unrelated to their work performance.  Instead of saying it's wrong to fire someone because they are black, or female, or gay, or lesbian, or trans.  And I would imagine that the vast majority of the LGB community is not transphobic, but there is a loud minority that is.  And sometimes emotion takes over, especially in times of incredible disappointment.  It just seemed, in the threads that I read, there was a large portion of LGB people that were just accusing Ts of whining, that we were always just riding the coattails and now that they were on the cusp of getting everything they ever wanted, WE were holding them back.  No, we have been part of the fight for a long time.  We aren't coming from nowhere.I'm lucky.  I have a job.  My employer and coworkers like me.  But I was fired from my last job because of my T status.  Colorado is now one of the few states that actually has protections for us now.  So it doesn't affect me as directly as so many others.  It was just so disheartening to see use devalued and dismissed.  Like we were the queers' queers.  The darker-skinned trying to hold our lighter-skinned allies back.Trans people are rejected in most every sphere you can imagine.  I'm a trans woman.  I consider myself a feminist.  But there are feminists that accuse me of trying to subvert feminism to the patriarchy.  It just gets so tiresome to be the scapegoat, to be seen as the minority's minority, holding everyone else back.  We are smart, we are normal, we just want to be recognized.I am happy that some form of ENDA passed.  It is a step in the right direction.  I just hope that the LGB community doesn't (if Bush actually sees and signs it) think that the fight is over.  We still need their help.  But history has shown that groups tend to get lax once they get what they want.  The anger that has arisen is frustration at being dismissed, misunderstood, underestimated.  The anger will eventually pass if we are not forgotten.  If you get to the top of the ladder and turn around to help us up, much of this will be forgotten.  So….  the ball is in the LGB court.

I’m still to pissed to comment and hurtI went out to eat with relatives but I’m still to pissed off about how we were stabbed in the back. I do not think this pain is going away anytime soon. The progressive world seems to approve of what has happen to which really hurts because there are people at dailykos doing the same thing. I feel hurt.

I have learned a lessonIf the ENDA brou-ha-ha has taught me anything…  I have always tried to live a stealth life.  Maybe it's time for that to stop.  Maybe it's time for me to get out there, and tell the world in no uncertain terms that I'm trans, I'm smart, I'm normal, get used to it.  The trans community is larger than I ever would have guessed before I started my transition.  The number of people that have been to my surgeon alone is staggering.  And then there are other surgeons, and those that can't afford the surgery, and those that don't need the surgery, and those that don't want the surgery.  Whatever the decision, we are here…  We are as intelligent and as valuable as everyone else in this world.  It is hard for me to blame people for being transphobic, because even now, it is easy for me to judge.  I'm human.  Trans includes trans women and trans men and gender ambiguous.  But the right uses the “men in dresses” bullshit.  And it is so disappointing to see people fold to that instead of yell “BULLSHIT!”  So please.  Understand where we are coming from.  Do you remember what it was like when you first realized you had to tell your parents you were gay?  Can you imagine telling your parents they didn't have a son, but a daughter?  I lost my family.  Just give us time to deal with our anger at what we consider a betrayal.  I will be happy if ENDA passes in any form, because when the dems finally take over in 2008, the rest of us should follow, I hope, if the dems finally, FINALLY grow a backbone.  Anyway…  that's what I think.

We both paiised off,  I mean what I say, and they can color me GONE from the Democratic party, thought third party, but make mt vote count, vote Republican.  At least this way, I will know when the toss over the side will happen, even if I am allowed on the bus.

You can do like me, Vote for a Republican,They feel we can be tossed over, and vote for them as they are ouronly hope,  I can’t do that, I would rather see the fucking coming, I will Vote for a republican! minus 1 Democratic vote to a third party, negates one vote maybe?  my vote for a republican, means minus one vote for a dem, minus one more as I vote republican, that will take two votes for every one I can convince to switch, plus one to get ahead,,  so Ilook at it like this, I know many trans people who are pissed, 143 on my e mail list, add family, give them the reasons, that alot of votes.  I will not be a “you can count on me vote this time around.    Threw me from the bus, see what you get?

I lived as an out trans woman  post-op and all, I had to hide to get a job,  trans tossed over, not safe for our new sissters and brothers to come out, without fearing a job.  Might as well stay in the closet  a bit, learn a job you can do as a woman, or man, be prepared to move to a state that has ENDA that protects us from discrimination.

instead of commentingI did go over to that rant and post this
http://endablog.word…
It is the first dairy I wrote at dailykos on how I felt when I first heard the news of what was happening. I still think it sums of my feelings.

That’s DisappointingI am sorry to hear that.  You would think that once we prove our competency, it would be all over.  If anyone is looking for a place to stay in the Denver area, look me up.  I have some space to rent.  I'm expecting a bit, but I can lower it for a trans sibling.

going to bed but wanted to commentI understand. I decided not to transtation myself. I have my reason but that is the only reason I do not consider myself TS. I consider myself Transgender because my soul is female. My body maybe male, but I am not male.
The first time I tried on clothing I had the help of a TS friend. It was scary because I was taking a risk then of exposing myself. BTW, I’m not your normal Transgender. I always knew something was different but I could never place what it was. I didn’t discover myself till late teens because I never had a desire to wear women’s clothing.
My whole problem is the Surgery isn’t enough for me. I want to feel life as well inside my stomach. It is something our technology just isn’t there yet. I do not need clothes to know I am female because I feel it deep inside of me. I am at a medium in my life when it comes to this, but I do not deny who I am. It isn’t a choice because if it was I could deny who I am and fit in easly, but I can not even if I do not live 24/7.
I also have TS’s who are friends that I consider family. I watched one of my friends go through surgery and even had the honor of helping when she was out of it. I have seen the pain of those who can not afford the surgery as well. I have also seen my friends lose their jobs.
Again yes I could choice to be normal like everyone else, but I wouldn’t be happy. I am who I am and I am proud of my own self. I won’t hide while others I know are being hurt who can not live a normal life. My life does not matter only those like HappyCat and my own friends who I care deeply about.
I’m angry right now at how betrayed I feel and deeply saden at how hurt it feels knowing that a chance for my friends to be protected were just tossed aside and used in a way that should never have happen. I’m tired of hiding and only want to protect my sisters and brothers who have decided different paths like I have.
Someone please tell me what to do and how to get things started because screw being hurt. I am only going to dedicate myself to Transgender Causes now and I want to know what to do to help. Screw everything else my sisters come first in my heart after this betrayal

I really don’t blame the democrats.Which is kinda funny, given I'm nominally supposed to, hee hee. THe more I think about the events and such, the more I see things that just turn my stomach.The really big push from the antigay against enda started at the begining of Septemebr using T stuff — the bathroom issue.  In order for any sort of realistic Poll to be done, HRC”s Poll would hae to have been started about the same time — for polling to take place in October.Midway through Septemebr, we have the speech by solomonese.About ten working days later, Frank pulls the bill apart “because there's not enough support”. HE publicly says he supports the baldwin amendment, but private bad mouths it.My understanding is that he's called us mutilated homosexuals in the past – and the way he refers to us is highly exclusive – he doesn't know anything about us and doesn't think of us as part of anything. Then you have HRC being very quiet for a while, and finally settling into a false neutrality — neutral on the surface, sending out deceptive emails and using the suport they've already gained in the past. In May and June, there were tons of donation requests.Lots of letters — automated and otherwise.Everyone else gathers up to oppose the bill.THe more I look at everything, the more I see tht the Dems are just as much a pawn as we were.  Even Barney's own words tell us he doesn't like the Dems. I really think this was all orchestrated, with no intent, ever, to do anything more than make Frank look really good. A democrat will be elected President.  Who is up for grabs.  Its possible that they'll retain thier control, but I suspect it will be a fairly narrow margin — historically speaking, itll be either a narrow margin or a total blowout.If its a blowout, they'll hold power for probably two terms. Otherwise, it'll be back to a republican (likely a more centrist one) after that.That gives us a single three year window by my reckoning for certain. And a year and a bit to get ready for it.They like to say we haven't done our groundwork.I'm going to show them groundwork, alright. And I suspect UnitedENDA will be a hell of a resource in making that *very* plain. 

HmmmHon, I never had any desire to wear clothes either.ANd I want that joy, as well. Drove my wife nuts while she was pregnant with my son. She said I was more pregnant than she was, lol. I've looked at that reserach, hon. I know where its at.  THe five and six yearolds today might have that as an ooption if everything goes perfect. OTherwise, it'll be the generation after that.Don't wait. I did, and now I've broken all the rules — fulltime before my docs or hair, no income, DIY hormones after a month, child support for a son I'll not see for at least 7 years if not more likely ever.Went part time after 6 months. Got to a point where I literally couldn't leave the house. THe anxiety of going out as a boy was petrifying me. The fear of the repercussions of going out as a girl — my own lack of self confidence — was horrible. One day, the damn shirt just got to me and i got rid of all the boy clothes.THe surgery doesn't matter. And yes, knowing you are a owman can be enough.But there's something special about a validation — that little tiny ma'am or that itsy pause to open a door or let you walk in someplace first. You get that, and you'll know somethig new.

I am still young and exploring things26 so I have a lot of life ahead of me. I have a TS friend that I truly care about. My friend comes before me in my books. Till I can help them I will not move forward on that part. I am ok in the position that I am. I have also found a happy medium in my life that can live with.
It took me a while to get to this position but I understand what is realistic and what isn’t in my life on it. My friend that has taught me a lot and been there matters. My friend helped me discover myself. I want to help her a great deal and it is the reason I feel so strongly about ENDA because my friend is TS.
I also have found happiness by helping others. It may seem pity, but seeing another able to find themself just as my friend help me is a big reason I want to go back to college and get my degree in order to help our community. It puts me in a unique position if I can complete my life time goal in this to become a TG therapist and help others be approved for SRS surgery.
I think that is what hurts the most right now about things is I’m most hurt when I see others I care about hurt. My friend and friends were hurt in a way they shouldn’t have been. How can I be happy when they are struggling?

Why is it so important?HiddenSaint, it's we who have to do the explaining, not you.Logically, you know you're a woman. How you dress or present shouldn't matter. OK, other women will be more open with you, as a “member of the club” rather than a possible threat, but if you live openly and honestly, you'll have G/Fs coming to you for advice on the Male View, as you're so obviously like them.No, it's we who are odd. Why is it so important to us that our external appearance reflects internal reality? And what about surgery, why is it so important for some?My situation is a little, OK, a lot unusual. Diagnosis Oct 85 : Undervirilised maleDiagnosis Oct 05 : Severely androgenised femaleBut my life story is straight out of “True Selves”, psychologically typical TS. Male chromosomes too. Pregnancy was never possible, Fatherhood was (just… with medical help.. and many miscarriages.. and only for a short time, 24 months maybe) Had I not become sterile, I wouldn't have transitioned – voluntarily anyway. Children were always that important to me, and not being able to bear them is just something I have to live with, as do many other women, TS or no. Once my natural transition started, I never considered not having SRS, but I can think of no good reason why. June 28th start IPL, June 30th get ears pierced, July 7th dress for the first time and pass too, July 28th fulltime, August 5th start HRT, August 8th name change, I mean what the heck?? I just couldn't not do it.It's not you who should justify to us, but we to you. And I can't. But please accept a hug. Your path is unusual, but so was mine. We all have to do what's right for ourselves, not what others tell us is the One True Way. It's also important when discussing the Big Picture, ENDA etc not to forget that we are Human, and need support from each other. Sometimes you have to take a break from matters of great worth and moment to do something even more important – Hug.

I reckon that……Ts and their advocates have their work cut out for them to lay the groundwork for a T-inclusive bill.  As I've been saying for months here, but which you do not want to understand.The fact that Baldwin pulled her own proposed amendment should have told you something.  Apparently, it didn't.  And continually whining it isn't fair regarding Ts and GLBs just doesn't work any more.  Lay your groundwork. 

A replay to Hidden Saint and others on what to do now ..   Donna Rose has launched a new project..on youtube.  Duzdonna.  go see it there. or on my blog somenotesonliving.blogspot.com.  There is much we can do, I praise all of us for our honesty. My love of my TG aspects has never been stronger. In fact it is now my label of choice if i had to chose one. I am fifty.  I am bio female but this body would not have been my first choice. I own NO womens clothes..or only those that for me are masculine enough. I have a real sensiibility there..a physiological revolution to anything deemed to feminine in my mind.  There are so many ways i am TG – I do not work. Medically retired. MY TS friends have never questioned my TG ness. And i am homosexually oriented..all my life.  I am pleased to say none of my gay male or straight friends have any problem with real acceptance of me or my friends who have had surgery.  Its all on a continuum.  The one thing i have noticed with those who do claim their TG ness and aspects is that they are without a freaky doubt the most transcendal loving souls I have ever ever known.  Now ,no group is homogenous, of course.  And this road takes its toll on those without enough support or pre dispositions to psychological problems…however bottom line. I will always embrace the entire community, even the elitists and those who do not see things my way. Yes they have hurt me, but – like my friends have shown me..OUR LOVE must transcend this.    so you want to move things along – get involved with Donna Rose's Project  !!     in solidarity – PP 

And, as I’ve saidWe have.What you aren't getting is that there's no amount of groundwork that will change it. T's require a whole new gender set, socially. Gender lies at the very root of society.Nothing will change so long as we maintain any aspect of the current society — and no amount of groundwork will do that.But the groundwork that we've laid has always and inevitably been inclusive. It can't be anything but.Fuck the “its not fair” argument.The real one is it isn't right.  And even you know that. 

and i really deeply mean it – The T is ME.  My female body and all its aspects..has never EVER been a good fit. And at three , having been given a traditionally female name..i told my mother AT 3 yrs of age my name was PETE. All these yrs. Not wanting breasts, dispising menstruation, sussing out the proper clothes for me. As a female however – its been an somewhat easier road.. i can cross dress so to speak. I will never forget 7th grade when girls could finally wear pants to school.  IT probably saved my life ..the clothes of my bio gender are a DEEP affront to my sensibilities.  That my friends is being TG. IF i were younger, healthier, who knows what i would do..likely a mastectomy for sure..and absoulutely a hsysterectomy.  Homones perhaps..I am very petite. slim. boyish looking all my life. At five ft. I figured that Androgeny was the way to go. It has been enough..But in my heart i l love and am attracted to Androgeny – the very pretty male, or the very handsome female. The true Androgenous soul.  That may all be TMI but its time to come out.  In my youth i was a vocal and active LGBT leader, forming a group in 85 that grew to 250 members in woodstock NY. It was always ALWAYS built on the foundation of UNITY in the face of HIV.  Unity will always strengthen a movement and it did.  Thanks for letting me share who i am – on the countries best LGBT blog. Thank you PAM. Thank you honest TGs for opening the door for me to further explain who i am and where i am coming from.  Let the world know. I have NO shame. And will fight to the end of my days for the consciousness raising that needs to be done.  OH and did i say check out Donna Rose's project ?  She did the right thing..goddesss love her in resigning from the HRC..and she like many of us “older folks ” care deeply about our youth and our peers.    

Feminine men and Masculine womenEffeminate and emasculate are not comparable terms.  The definition of emasculate is to castrate, weaken deprive of vigor, render inoffensive. Effeminate can be used as a descriptor of both men and women but is rather derogatory when applied to either.It is one of those words and perhaps concepts that requires questioning.  Especially since it is a term used to reinforce the patriarchal oppression of man= strong, wise, powerful and the embodyment of all positive masculinist values.  It defines woman in its oppositude as weak, foolish, vain and the embodyment as lesser.Julia Serano's book “Whipping Girl” give an excellent analysis 

You can say here whatever you want, but……until you get off your butt and lay the groundwork for passing a T-inclusive ENDA, you are't going to get anywhere, are you.  And your continual whining about a non-T-inclusive ENDA, to try to derail an ENDA that might help G&Ls is not going to buy you any friends.You might want to ignore that, but the sad fact that you have is tha it is true.

Think PeopleIt really disheartens me to see the LGBT community reacting emotionally in this way as opposed to really thinking it through.Everyone on here seems to be  takin ga “damn the man” approach – if HRC supports a bill that doesn't include the “T's”  then we should all stop supporting the organization and completely distrust it.I'm sorry but that's a bunch of crap.HRC is the only major political organizaiton supporting and driving LGBT rights in the government.  They've done tremendous things for the community.You need to look at this as a process, not an “all or nothing” approach.  HRC was able to drive and get a bill passed that in essence greatly improves the rights of 75% of the people it supports – that's OUTSTANDING!  HRC is not saying they don't want to continue to drive to get the “T” included or that they don't support the Ts – in fact it's exactly the opposite.  They're going to continue working overtime to get the T included.This is no slap in the face to the Ts out there – it's a matter of progress.  Getting smaller wins now and continuing the fight.I read someone say why not hold the Gs out because the Ls and the Bs are more accepted.  If our political allies felt including the Gs would cause the bill to get rejected, as a G, I'd be all for leaving us out, with the understanding they were going to continue to work to get me included – as they are with the Ts. By saying HRC should not have supported a non-inclusive ENDA bill is saying that you'd rather have 100% of the LGBT community go on experiencing pain and in-equality, as opposed to having 75% of us get the rights we deserve now, and focusing on geting the remaining 25% the same rights in the very near future.  That's completely ridiculous.  Let's say you're a fireman at a fire in a building.  There are 20 people stuck inside. You know with your man-power and equipment you can only realistically get 15 people out at a time and take them to safety.  There is another troop coming to support you, at which time you'd be able to get all 20 people out at once, but the additional troop won't arrive for 30 minutes.  Obviously with a fire, the longer the people are in there, the greater the risk of them perishing. You have 2 options: 1) You can get the 15 people out now and get them to safety, and the circle back to get the remaining 5 people out.  You can probably do this within 15 minutes.  The likelihood of getting all 20 people out is good.2) You can wait 30 minutes until the troop from the neighboring town arrives at which point you can get all the people out at once.  However you'd leave 20 people stuck in a burning building for 30 minutes as opposed to 5 people stuck in there for 15 minutes.Which would you choose?  By reacting the way most of you are on here, you're choosing option 2.  You'd rather keep an entire group in danger until you can get them to safety all at once, as opposed to getting a large majority of them out now and continuing to work on the others. That makes absolutely no sense!

If I were any kind of activist…I'd be pretty pissed off by now at these exhortations to “get off [my] butt.” I mean, there's no denying that I'm lazy, but it's not like there's any shortage of politically active trannies out there – or apathetic gay men, for that matter. Do they have to get off their collective queer ass before they're entitled to legal protections, too?You're not even really setting a bar here. No matter what trannies do, you'll always be able to come back with, Well, lay your groundwork! I'll ask you again, as I've asked you before, what does this “groundwork” look like? Under what conditions would you be satisfied that it had been laid?

What you fail to realize:

Everyone on here seems to be  takin ga “damn the man” approach – if HRC supports a bill that doesn't include the “T's”  then we should all stop supporting the organization and completely distrust it.

I think a lot of the antipathy toward the HRC that's being expressed here has less to do with the position they took per se than with the fact that they broke the promise they made to transpeople that they wouldn't support an exclusive ENDA. Again.

HRC was able to drive and get a bill passed that in essence greatly improves the rights of 75% of the people it supports – that's OUTSTANDING!

The bill passed in the House. It will not pass in the Senate. In the extraordinarily unlikely event that it does pass in the Senate, the President will veto it. So no, HRC did no such thing. At best, they've achieved a purely symbolic victory, at the cost of a very real “fuck you” to the transpeople whose interests they claim to be representing.That being so, the rest of your post is a non sequitur.

Discrimination I Have Faced As a Woman Born TranssexualWhen I started living as a woman in 1969, the employment section of the Newspapers in San Francisco divided the help wanted section into “Help Wanted Male” and “Help Wanted Female”. As someone in early transition I had to apply for those jobs classified as female.  I went to work for a major SF department store.  I was hired to sell baby clothes.  I was paid about 60% of what men hired the same day to do the same work in other departments  were paid. Some years later I became a tech.  The help wanted ads were no longer divided by sex. Title IX and other feminist gained provisions had made those sort of ads a part of history.  But I worked in a production area where I had to deal with rampant sexism.  I had a thick skin and while I lived and worked in the Silicon Pit I partied in SF.  I didn't hide I was a dyke so I avoided getting hit on.I later worked for a computer store in SF, as their tech.  I billed more than most stores in the chain.  I didn't feel I had to say I was a lesbian. Afterall I pretty much looked the part of a techno-dyke who went to the punk rock clubs on the weekend. But then I started to have to deal with issues of sexual harassment and the employment discrimination was the same where ever I went. One of the corporate boys made it known that his definition of computer tech precluded females from that position.  He came to SF and flat out asked me why I wasn't married.  Then he tried to get me to have sex with him.I doubt transinclusion in ENDA would have protected me from this but protecting me because I am an L/B might have.  But what would have proteted me more would have been being able to sue his ass as a woman sexually harassed in a situation where a hostile work enviroment had been created.  But then my history could have been dredged up by a detective and post-SRS women were not covered. Now I came out young and once I came out 90% of the bullshit I received for having been born transsexual disappeared.What didn't disappear was the discrimination all women face living in a male dominated patriarchy.  The rampant sexism, the misogyny still exists.Indeed a good percentage of the time when I hear about discrimination against “transgendered people”, when I look at the details I want to say.  welcome to womanhood, baby girl.  You will get used to it.  This is what every woman has to deal with.  It is called misogyny and it is called sexism.  The cure is feminism and the path to ending this sexism is smashing the patriarchy. Much of the discrimination transgenders face is based on the presumption of homosexuality.  Much more is based on misogyny.Even a non transgender specific ENDA would help with the discrimiation based on the presumption of homosexuality. The Equal Rights Amendment would help even more.

A Different View: Redirecting the Anger and Passion Over ENDAI've read several of these postings, and cannot begin to express how disheartening several of them are to me.  I'd like to share several perspectives on the issue of ENDA.The anger, energy, and passion that our community is feeling about this issue is natural – and completely understandable.  It's upsetting.  It's not fair.  It's not right.  EVERYONE deserves equal rights.That said - attacking our community from the inside, is not the way to go about continuing the fight.  Just sitting back and bitching is also a very easy approach to take – but is not healthy, and is not solving the problem.If you want to direct anger at someone – direct it at the fat white guys on Capitol Hill, and a great majority of Americans, many of whom simply do not understand ANY members of our community for that matter.  Will attacking them solve the problem?  NO.  But awareness, education, positive outreach, and persistence will.  As someone with some inside knowledge on this issue, I can tell you that when presented, members of Congress (particularly freshmen Democrats and the majority of Republicans) had a huge amount of questions about what it means to be transgendered.  Questions like “What does being transgendered mean?” “How would corporations be expected to handle prominent leaders changing their gender or expression of gender?”  (swear to God this question was asked) “which restroom would they be using, and when in the process does this change?”  “How would religious organizations be forced to handle this?” They were NOT saying “Transgendered people do not deserve rights, and I don't want them to have them!”  What they expressed was, “we've received more education and information on these other facets of the community, and we understand the lesbian, gay, and bisexual members of the community a little better.  But we need more information, more education, and more understanding before we can address this other piece.”People, ENDA has been an ongoing battle for 30 years.  The fact that Congress was even willing to consider a noninclusive version addressing only 3 components of our community is AMAZING, not to mention historic, to say the least.  Do you really think HRC is happy about this issue, or deliberately calculated NOT including the transgendered community? I can assure you, they are NOT happy, and are devasted by it.But do you think, it is honestly wise, for an organization who has more pull on Capitol Hill than ANY other organization in our community, to turn its back (and basically slap the faces of) what few allies our community as a whole does have in Congress?!?  If HRC opposed the bill – that would have happened.  It would have been locked out of those discussions, and lost the support of advocates like Pelosi, Frank AND Baldwin.If HRC got shut out – who would represent us?  Organizations like the National Gay and Lesbian Taskforce are bragging about how they can be that voice and have those resources – they don't.  And something to carefully ponder when listening to some of their views – are we all naive enough, to think that they might not have their own personal agendas as well, that best serve the needs of their own organization?Politics is complex, its complicated.  It is NOT black and white – it's gray.  Driving a large scale change, especially one involving beliefs and values, doesn't happen over night – look back historically everyone, if never has.  It takes TIME, it takes EDUCATION, and it takes incremental, gradual STEPS. Going in, guns blazing, saying “it's all the way my way or the highway” is NOT the way to approach any issue – that just closes people off, and makes them less inclined to hear your voice.  HRC is an organization, unlike any other in our community, who has done an AMAZING job fighting for our rights, on a variety of issues.  Case in point – who just drove the Matthew Shepard Act, which IS transinclusive – that was HRC, people.Who is already ramping up education efforts on transgender issues and directing resources to that – again, it's HRC.Who is trying actively to work with organizations on helping with all of the above – HRC is.If we keep attacking each other, no one will want to support, work with, or for that matter care about our community.This is one of many difficult, emotional battles in a series of ongoing battles our community will continue to face – and fight.  And we need to do it together.I'll end with how I began – use that energy, use that passion, use that anger to focus on changing the minds of the people in Congress and across this country about their concerns, fears and worries about the transcommunity.  EDUCATE.  TALK ABOUT IT.  LISTEN TO THEIR CONCERNS.  And don't stop doing any of the above, until people “get it.”  This battle is not over.  We will win it.  But we must do it together.  

Agreed, save for this…Look at the anger that's being tossed.Most of it is directed at the HRC and Frank.Some of it is directed at the group that's saying screw the T.The T folks all realize what you are saying — and I suspect that down to nearly the last one of us, we'd support that utterly.But we will not do it with the HRC.Period.We will not do it with Barney Frank.Period. Yes, we are pissed, and we will rip into anyone who even comes close to telling us we shouldn't be.Becuase they *reasons* they are all given are the things that piss us off. And those resons come from folks like Crain and Avarosis and Frank and, yes, the HRC. Sorry — its over with the HRC for us.  If we are going toregroup, it has to be without them.Not the smartest thing to do, but I seriously doubt they'll be able to do what we'll want in the next 87 days. Because I don't think they give a shit about it. 

From what I have seen……pretty much most of what Ts do iw write long-winded letters to the editors of publications that are primarily directed to gays and lesbian, bitching and moaning about how G&Ls and those publications ignore Ts.A sterling example of how to win friends and influence people.

Given you didn’t know much elseand that you don't care to ask questions, I'd say that's not surprising.We;'ve been invisible to you.But not anymore, huh?Oh — and I should tell you that's almost a word for word quote of something someone once told me. Just a little while ago.Except they thought I was gay.

Zing.

Oh — and I should tell you that's almost a word for word quote of something someone once told me. Just a little while ago.Except they thought I was gay.

PissedOf course we are pissed.  We've been told we are not women.  we are told we are not this, nor that.  Gay guys get all pale when they realize we had our genitals “reworked”.  Some lesbians can't forget we once had a dick. For many years I've been saying there is no future being the “T” in LGBT.  Most gay guys and lesbian women cannot fathom why, and what we MTF's do.  Why we get ouselves reconfigured to fit how we believe we should be.  If we end up lesbians, many dykes cannot understand why we didn't keep our penis.  If we like men, many gay guys see us as “gay men who have gone too far”. Then there is the whole “transgender” thing.  I do not consider myself a part of a “transgender” community.  I am a post-op woman.  I am a member of what could be called WBT  –  Woman Born Transsexual  –  no longer a “tranny”, just a woman trying to “make her way through the world”. It takes time after Sexual Reassignment Surgery (SRS) to actually “grow” into our BEING just plain women  –  no longer “special”, no longer forced to any “outside”.  It takes time BEING to understand what we face is what EVERY WOMAN faces in our society.   If we're older and not quite “lovely”, it's even worse.  Then, if we are “outed”  –  all bets are off.  No one really wants us.  So, we move onward, and persevere.   I've written HRC off.  Not another penny, nickle, or dime.  Not a kind word.  They do not care about us.  They can't understand us.  They do not want to, either. The LG world can deal with us only if they see us as a seperate group  –  “transgender”  –  to look at us as “women” is too hard.  It means opening up their minds.  It means growing beyond their simplistic ideas of who we are. Then there are the FTM's.  Many believe as we do.  Others just can't seem to give up their “lesbian creds”.  In addition, since they move from a “lower” to “higher” status, many (very far from all) have a bit better time of it.  For years, most FTM's got a “pass” from most parts of the diverse, farflung, and largely non-existant, “transgender community”.   I hope ENDA passes.  I hope an ENDA with trans and gender protections will eventually pass.   I doubt it will happen soon  –  if “dykes” and “fags” are accepted  –  who will the fine folks of America look down on. Heck, personal ads will still say “no fats no fems”, or “no fats no butches”.  Self hatred is too deeply entrenched for those attitudes to really change very soon. An inclusive ENDA will, or will not, pass.  We will continue living our lives as well as we can.  Some will make it  –  many others will fall by the wayside.  My partner is post-op over 35 years.  Only one of her original “crew” of about 25 people, beside her, is still alive. There is simple proof there was no future being the “T” in LGBT.     

huh?I just don't get the awful hateful things we're throwing at members of our own community, however flawed their decision making may be. It is so counterproductive to go backwards in terms of fragmenting our energies in different directions. And,I'd like to know how HRC can be held responsible for a legislative process. They are a LOBBYING group, not elected officials. Lobbyist can only do just that, lobby for a cause. As far as I can see from all the press I read in DC, that's exactly what they've been doing all along, for an INCLUSIVE ENDA. If we're “regrouping” like a few suggest here, let's do it together WITH the largest LGBT lobbyist group on the hill. Make change from within.

awful, hateful“I just don't get the awful hateful things we're throwing at members of our own community, however flawed their decision making may be. It is so counterproductive to go backwards in terms of fragmenting our energies in different directions.”  Over the years it has not been “our own community”.  Trans folks have been largely dismissed as a true part of the “community”. We have been asked to be out, to “walk point” for any number of causes, we've been asked to take hits for others  –  then we are told we may well lose some hard fought rights until the rest of the “community” can catch up to us.   Over the years many “hateful things” were thrown at us.  This latest event, being thrown off the bus  –  again  –  is nothing new.  Just same old, same old. Why should we support those who do not support us?  It's like being a “Log Cabin Republican”, or, selling my soul to one devil or another. When is it enough? 

AHS, you share the pain of not being able to bear children with a great many women. At least 10% of the ciswoman population is infertile. I have no bright suggestions other than to mother when you can, by adoption, fosterage, or as simple as being a “holder” for babies in hospital. Some premies don't have parents who can or want to be there most of the day, and there aren't enough nurses, so sometimes hospitals take volunteers to be foster-grannies for a hour or few a day. For older kids, Saturday tutoring is always needed. (This is a favorite retiree-age volunteer job at the public library).

Yup! Misogyny is a BIG part of anti-trans sentimentand fear is the other component (the crossing the legs reaction most people have when learning that SRS is real).Winning ERA would be BIG. Obviously, a good many transwomen are feminists – and I will say that the “radical feminists” who are anti-trans are fossils and are only a small percentage of feminist lesbians (and zero of het. feminists).The T subject is on the table. Time for some media work, some grassroots lobbying, some of the work that should be going on even when there isn't a bill of interest. 

IMO, smaller cities’ LGBs more likely to encounter Ts and thusmore likely to support, particularly if the setting is still homophobic. If there are only a limited number of LGBT-friendly churches and social groups (choruses, sports teams, bars/restaurants, etc), people don't self-segregate as much.

“Radical Feminists”I get really irritated by the misuse of the term “radical feminist”.  For one thing it is almost always used for people who are not radical feminists but are rather cultural feminists.  Check out Alice Echols “Daring to Be Bad”.  Radical feminism existed between about 1967 and 1973-75.  Many radical Feminists had their roots in SDS, the anti-war and civil rights movements.  It connotes a definate set of class conscious left politics and that is what distinguishs it from NOW and Betty Friedan of that era.  Shulamith Firestone, Rita Mae Brow, The Furies, WITCH and Ti Grace Atkinson are name associated with Radical Feminism.The only person associated directly with radical feminism who was active in the trashing of a woman born transsexual was Robin Morgan.  This at a time when some within the movement most notably Jane Alpert were accusing her of opportunism.Much of the trashing of women of transsexual history that occured during the 1970s takes on a different light when it is viewed within the context of the self destructive trashing of anyone who seemed to work too hard (one of those sins WBTS were guilty of since we were trying to prove our committment) or who rose above the rank and file.  (See Jo Freeman On Trashing [I don't have the url.  Google it]  Susan Brownmiller's “In Our Time” as well as Karla Jay's book.  GTloria Steinem was accused of being a CIA agent.  A lot of this stuff was probably instigated by Cointelpro. Jan Raymond came along later.  She was involved with Mary Daly who colonized the term radical feminism for an over all sex negative ideology.  The radical feminists of 1967-75 were far more sex positive.  The roots of Daly/Raymond are in a Catholic college and coincided with the work of allgedly a member of Opus Dei Paul McHugh.  They are closer to the Taliban Christian  Right wing than to radical feminism.  One of raymond's more recent stands has been opposition to RU486 and other forms of contraception, she is rumored to be both anti-abortion and anti-artificial contraception. These are not radical feminism and are the polar opposite of radical feminism.As for academics who claim to be radical feminists.  Radical feminism dfoes its actions in the streets.  Academics wank within the walls of the ivory towers.  Their claim to being radical feminists is the claim of a bunch of poseurs.   

I could use a friend in denver,  I live in Aurora, see if pam will exchange email addys if you like.

I really feel sorryFor all the folks that have decided (and it is a choice) to be bitter and hateful at a time that we should all be marking as a milestone for civil rights.Then again, those of us who have actually worked on this issue in the workplace understand the work required to make progress towards equality — and that it is ALWAYS been incremental… whether incremental within a particular company or incremental in how some companies build on the progress that others have made to leap-frog in their diversity efforts.But don't listen to me — I'm just one of those dumpy rich white gay guys that secured domestic partnership benefits for lgb employees and then went on to write the transgender non-discrimination policy and guidelines for my company. 

Oh, so let me understand this…Except they thought I was gaySo, if “they” (whoever “they” were) thought you were gay, you would have been protected by an ENDA that was directed to “actual or perceived sexual orientation” (gay) even if it did not explicitly include T.It seems to me that you are less interested in protection, than the notion that you are not gay.  Well, so be it.  You are not gay.  Yet you want organizations who primarily marketed themselves to gays and lesbians to impede legislation that might give gays and lesbians equal rights to please people who are not gay.You can't have it both ways.  Form your own organizations and stop trying to impede equal rights for gay people.

Nice tryBut you failed.”they” would be typical pissy anti-gay folks. In this particular case, one from Ohio, male, I'm going to estimate in the 45 to 60 range, semi-retired or on disability.And no, I wouldnt have been, becuase the reason they thought I was gay was becuase I was T.That “percieved” bit? When they were sat down in court, they would have described gender non normative aspects, not sexual oreintation.  And whil eit would have made them look really stupid, it would still not have won the case.The organizations you speak of are not — in their own words — primarily gay and lesbian focused.  So fuck you, raj.  They were mine too.So no.  You don't like inclusive organizations, *you* go form your own.  OR jsut stick with the HRC as it goes down in flames and when they lie to you for the last time that breaks your back, don't even think of coming back to me and giving a mea culpa.

Ya know, raj…I just decided I'd look back through your comment history.And in doing so, I see that felt that the T held you back from getting some rights at some point.And that you've *never* said anything community postive.And that, in general, you are a pretty nasty person overall, with deep seated resentemtns and strong aversions to anything T.I wish I'd done that earlier.  Really, I do. See, now I know that you are all in a knot of a percieved injustice that came about because gay people hadn't done enough to lay their groundwork.To use your words.You've been called transphobic by better people than I, and not only never denied it, you've seemingly embraced it through your actions and comments.WHich is too bad.For you.

How to win friends and influence people…So, let me understand something.  You are selfish enough that you would prefer that G&Ls eschew the possibility of equal employment rights, when Ts haven't laid the groundwork for the same.  It's interesting that you believe that.  But why should G&Ls support you if you want to deny them equal rights?.  And why should G&Ls support Ts if they are going to go through such machinations?BTW, I don't know who you are referring to by In this particular case, one from Ohio, male. I haven't lived in Ohio since 1974.  Gawd knows where you live.  NeverNeverLand?You seriously aren't worth the effort of dealing with.  You, like many T-activists who inundate G&L publications letters pages, believe that the publications should kiss your fannies, while T-activists have done little more than whine “sorry me” to inhibit passage of equal rights for gays and lesbians.  I'm sorry, but it isn't going to work any more.  You have shot your wad and it missed.   The sooner that G&L organizations jettison Ts, the sooner that (a) G&L organizations can get back to their mission of supporting equal rights for G&Ls and (b) Ts will be forced to invent their own organizations for T rights.  Lay your groundwork.  And stop bitching and moaning just that “it isn't fair” for there to be a T-exclusive ENDA.Also, btw, some of us know how to express ourselves without resorting to four-letter fulgarisms.

I’m still waiting for your proofThat T's haven't laid the groundwork.Until then, using that as the basis of your argument is asinine and lazy.Which means the first paragraph is invalid for now.And it doesn't matter who I was referring to. It wasn't you.And I've yuet to see any case where being T inhibited the passage of any rights bill.  This, though, is the crux of your argument and why you are a transphobic halfwit.You see, what you consider an inhibiting factor is actually the active and intentional effort to deny T's their protections in my view.I don't think either of us will ever see a middle ground there.We've laid our groundwork.  And you have been riding on it ever since. You, personally. Not tthe movement as a whole.  Just you.And I'm more than capable of avoiding vulgarities when its warranted.In your case, though, being a fuckhead is going to get you called it. I now the risk of calling you such — I know quite well that if pam or the others feel I'm being overly harsh or rude, they can ban me, or ask me to stop doing so.ITs still part of the language, though, and it has strong meanings that are conveyed in context in a nice, elegant little shorthand that's pretty hard to get otherwise. 

Let me save you the effort…And that you've *never* said anything community postive…what I have consistently written is that there is no community if, what you mean by “community” is a GLBT community.  There are various communities of interest among G, L. B and Ts, some of which overlap with each other, and some of which overlap with non G, L, B and Ts.  The sooner that you recognize that fact, the sooner that you will understand the fact that not everyone agrees with you.

I’m still waiting for your evidence that……if Ts had laid the ground work, that passage of a T-inclusive ENDA would not have been a cakewalk.  Obviously it wasn't, otherwise Tammy Baldwin's amendment could have gone forward.

Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

…if Ts had laid the ground work, that passage of a T-inclusive ENDA would not have been a cakewalk.

Hmmm…If gays had “laid the groundwork,” marriage equality would be mandated by federal law. For that matter, if gays had “laid the groundwork,” passage into law of a T-exclusive ENDA would be a foregone conclusion. Lazy homosexuals!If the American Family Association had “laid the groundwork,” then homosexuality would be a capital offense by now. Good thing they're lazy too.You can make all these outrageous claims because we still don't know what “groundwork” it is you're talking about. Leave it undefined, and any self-consistent statement of the form “if the groundwork had been laid, then _____” will be a tautology.Of course, actually talking specifics would leave you open to the many, many activism-related counterexamples that dyssonance et al could surely provide. So that's right out. Also, raj, the point of dyssonance's “they thought I was gay” comment was that All you ever do is whine! is the lazy refrain of people who want to dismiss the complaints of gays/trannies/black people/whoever without quite sounding homophobic/transphobic/racist/whatever. The people with whom she was speaking were surely wrong about gays doing nothing but writing angry letters, et cetera, just as you are wrong – and you are wrong – about transpeople.

I don’t need to offer proof of thatI've never made that claim. As for your holding there is no community, well, yu are one of a handful of people who make that statment — and its fairly easy to see why.You focus on the differences, instead of the commonalities. 

It strikes me that……T-advocates have lost the argument.  That should be clear from the events of the last couple of days in Congress, particularly when Tammy Baldwin essentially admitted that she did not have the votes even in the House for a T-inclusive ENDA.  Do your groundwork and stop yelling “it ain't fair.”Continue bleating that the G&Ls should eschew equal employment rights until Congress is ready to pass a T-inclusive ENDA, and you will see more than a few G&Ls willing to ignore T-advocates altogether.  Be careful what you wish for.  It may turn around a bite you in the rear.

So now you lie to CYA?Tmmy Baldwin  didn't claim she didn't have enough votes to pass an inclusive ENDA.She only said she didn't have enough votes to pass the amendment.THe inclusive ENDA was never tested — becuase Frank didn't want it to be tested. Come on fuckwit — show us your proof we haven't done out groundwork.

Those of us who are not terminally stupid……know that, if Baldwin had the votes for a T-inclusive ENDA bill, she would have proceeded with HR2015–her T-inclusive ENDA bill.  She apparently withdrew that bill, with the assurance that she would be permitted to present an amendment to HR3568 (or whatever the bill number was).But Baldwin withdrew her amendment and didn't pursue her own bill.  That pretty much tells me that she knew that didn't have the votes either for her T-inclusive bill OR for her amendment.  It wouldn't be necessary that she yell it in my year; her actions spoke for themselves.

Not only to CYA, but to yourself as wellFunny.2015 was never withdrawn. Frank buried it in committee. So your entire post is without value, since its predicted on a fantasy.And I'm supposed to be the one that's living in a fantasy land.Damn, raj. I swear, you are utterly transphobic.

Odd, unless you’re going to tell us that… Frank buried it in committee. Frank was the chairman of the relevant committee (he is chairman of a money and banking committee), he would not have had the power to bury HR2015 in committee.Nor would he have had the power to bury the proposed amendment on the floor. Try again.

ANd yeteven he admits he did. Go figure…

Here’s what Avarosis posted… seems to answer the questionshttp://www.americablog.com/2007/11/details-of-new-enda-poll.html  But I'm doubtful that you will believe anything, factual or not, at this point. 

I’d guess it was the same polland either duplicity or carelessness could be involved in the discrepancies. The date thing could be an honest mistake by a sloppy HRC PR person or Advocate reporter (Oct 26 =? Oct 2-6, cited off the top of the head). The “500″ (composition not specified) could be a guesstimate by the HRC PR person or an imperfect memory by sloppy reporter of phone conversation of “514″. I can totally see a frazzled HRC underling without the poll right in front of them just pulling figures from a previous conversation with another HRC employee, without telling Advocate, call back in 5 min, I need to look up exact numbers.HRC: lying vs incompetentAdvocate: in good faith but lazy (demand actual poll faxed to the A.), vs incompetent  I'd be guessing this situation arises a lot in the .com publishing community.  

What’s that supposed to mean?

I have to ask raj – given the amount of time you spend commenting on this – are you working for any organization? Or perhaps you're on some sort of public assistance. 

And how is it relevant to anything? 

Daly and Raymond were old-style separatistsand in their ideal world, “good” women wouldn't need contraception, abortion, etc. because the lesbians would live in utopia while the het women got what they deserved for being traitors to the movement. And men were not to be trusted. I don't think that Daly was at all connected to opus dei or anything else Catholic, since Boston Univ. periodically tried to get rid of her, then tenured, after she wrote Beyond God the Father.